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Why is there no 'separation of temples and state' in India?

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a-TB

Well-known member
How I wish that someone resourceful amongst the Tamil Brahmins file a suit in the supreme court of India asking for granting TBs the status of followers of a minority religion in India like the Parsees. Yes, our faith and practices are far different from what is followed by the majority of the socalled Hindu religion at least in Tamilnadu.

Judging by all kinds of people who call themselves TB, it will be hard to prove who is a TB

Some people eat all kinds of animals and call themselves TB. There are people who cannot read or write Tamil call themselves TB. There are people steeped in western way of life call themselves TB. There are some who are very 'spiritual' , call themselves experts in wine testing but insist they are TB

Hard to come up with a criteria for a TB
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Does it really matter as to how we define a TB?
When Lingayat can declare themselves a separate religion, Ramakrishna Matt tries to declare themselves as Non-Hindu, we can definitely claim a separate TB religion.
Whether we get it approved or not is a matter of judgment, and we have to commit resources. Maybe Subramaniam Swamy can be roped in. Just a thought.


Tamil Brahmin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tamil Brahmins, are Tamil-speaking Brahmins primarily living in Tamil Nadu, although a few of them have settled in other states like, Andhra Pradesh, Kerala and Karnataka. They can be broadly divided into three religious groups, Gurukkals who follow Saivism, Iyers who follow the Srauta and Smartha tradition and Iyengars who follow Sri Vaishnavism.
 
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KRN

Active member
Dear Mr KRN,

I think you have answered my queries fully. Thanks for doing that,. [/quote]
You are welcome, Sir :)

I think secular thinking need not be a bad thing. The issue is we have pseudo secularist who lack integrity or lack the ability to think or both. If there are true secularists out there they can joint hands in getting rid of these unfair practices against Hindus .

Once again thanks for your response
Secular thinking in terms of equality of all faiths, is in the ethos of our country. That was why Buddha and many others were allowed to preach radical thoughts and lived undisturbed until a ripe old age. But religious education has always been a part of Indian teaching from time immemmoria. The pseudoseculars have removed all Hindu religious education from the curriculum, and with the administration of Temples and boards vested with communists and the like, ensured that even the Hindu temples do nothing to foster proper religious education amongst the Hindu masses. So this brand of secularism, imposed on us in 1976, is totally detrimental to all justice and against the values and ideals held by our freedom fighters. Today the ordinary Hindu gets his religious education from the mythological television serials in profusion or from the propagandist literature of the political parties. Where is the time or incentive for him to study or listen to the epics or Vedas or Upanishads? This was not the case before independence, when people did not have all these distractions and even an ordinary man was able to acquire just enough religious education to enable him to pursue his life goals.
 

KRN

Active member
How I wish that someone resourceful amongst the Tamil Brahmins file a suit in the supreme court of India asking for granting TBs the status of followers of a minority religion in India like the Parsees. Yes, our faith and practices are far different from what is followed by the majority of the socalled Hindu religion at least in Tamilnadu.
Such a move might bring media attention to the plight and discrimination that TBs face in some parts of the country. But I would not prefer to go to that extent. Nor do I think that the SC will grant any such ruling. Such a suit might lead to schism within the TB community and can also invite a backlash from the Hindus elsewhere in India.

My personal view in the matter is different. It's indisputable that our faith and practices are far different from the majority of other Hindus in TN. Rather than take sides or involve in the matters of other Hindus (and that includes issues like Sabarimala), let us save precious time and try to become better Brahmins. In the past, it was the superior skill of our ancestors that prompted the other Hindus to revere them and to keep them at a high pedestal. In the course of centuries, we became complacent and relaxed in our customs and practices and as a result we lost some of the spiritual power that enabled us to withstand difficult challenges in life. Now the present generation is again showing an interest in learning more about our culture and practices, which is a good sign. If we focus on our spiritual strengths, and simultaneously work hard and keep ourselves open minded on the opportunities that life throws up from time to time, we should be able to get back some of the prestige of the past.
 

KRN

Active member
Does it really matter as to how we define a TB?
When Lingayat can declare themselves a separate religion, Ramakrishna Matt tries to declare themselves as Non-Hindu, we can definitely claim a separate TB religion.
Whether we get it approved or not is a matter of judgment, and we have to commit resources. Maybe Subramaniam Swamy can be roped in. Just a thought.
Subramanian Swamy is an individualist, I think :)

If we declare ourselves a separate religion, that means we will have to give up on many of the treasures that were cherished by Hindus for centuries. Such a move is not going to give us any benefit, while it might be painful to make TBs. Rather than that, if we focus on improving ourselves even while staying within the Hindu religion, but not wasting time and energy on many of the minor issues plaguing Hinduism, we will be better off.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Wow..
TBism as a separate religion?
Actually I agree to this.

Datta swami is right!
What we call Hinduism today is a subset of many sub religions

Thats why there is so much confusion in Hinduism.

But since TBs feel they follow TBism...what about differences among them?
Shaivaism and Vaishnavaism have sects too among TBs.

Vaagmi ji...what next?
Subdivisions?
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Hilarious to see people who came to the forum loudly proclaiming that there is no life outside of enjoying the sun city activities espousing the cause of religion.

LOL !
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Sorry Renukaji, have to disagree.

  1. By creating a minority religion, we will get isolated like the Parsees.
  2. Does anyone know the Parsees culture outside of them?
  3. Our next generation tbs are not following the culture and traditions. Most are migrating abroad and merging into the local cultures there.
  4. Our most immediate priority should be to preserve this glorious culture.
  5. Hence we should first get our kids to follow and live this culture.
  6. Majority Hindu should adopt our tb culture and traditions.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Sorry Renukaji, have to disagree.

  1. By creating a minority religion, we will get isolated like the Parsees.
  2. Does anyone know the Parsees culture outside of them?
  3. Our next generation tbs are not following the culture and traditions. Most are migrating abroad and merging into the local cultures there.
  4. Our most immediate priority should be to preserve this glorious culture.
  5. Hence we should first get our kids to follow and live this culture.
  6. Majority Hindu should adopt our tb culture and traditions.
Lol.

Why should other Hindus adopt TB culture.

It would be as alien to me as adopting any other culture.

Religion and culture need not always go hand in hand.
No offense but I find TB culture adhering too much to rituals and pitr karyam..something I dont connect at all.

If one isnt born in a culture one will not want to adopt it.

Another is the food..i am veg no.doubt but very expiremental in food and would veg from from any country..i cook.a tribal style young bamboo shoots..( my mum calls me jungle woman!LOL)

Next..i dont really enjoy Carnatic music though I like one or two western note Thyagaraja kirtis but no way I can sit tru a Carnatic music concert.

I can never follow anything of TB culture..and i dont think most of other Hindus would want to follow it too.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Lol.

Why should other Hindus adopt TB culture.

It would be as alien to me as adopting any other culture.

Religion and culture need not always go hand in hand.
No offense but I find TB culture adhering too much to rituals and pitr karyam..something I dont connect at all.

If one isnt born in a culture one will not want to adopt it.

Another is the food..i am veg no.doubt but very expiremental in food and would veg from from any country..i cook.a tribal style young bamboo shoots..( my mum calls me jungle woman!LOL)

Next..i dont really enjoy Carnatic music though I like one or two western note Thyagaraja kirtis but no way I can sit tru a Carnatic music concert.

I can never follow anything of TB culture..and i dont think most of other Hindus would want to follow it too.
Hi Renukaji,

Let me try and convince you otherwise.

1. Do you consider the Kshatriyas Shivan, Raman, Narayana, Krishna, etc.. as TB gods, Brahmin Gods, or Hindu Gods ??

2. Do you consider Ramayana and Mahabhartam as TB or Brahmin or Hindu texts ?? Remember Ramayanam is written by Valmiki who is a non Brahmin. Most of the characters in these texts are non Brahmins.

3. Do you consider chanting Ramayana slokams a TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

4. Do you consider Bhaàtanatyam and Carnatic music a TB or Brahmin or Tamil culture ?? Read Nairhrus posts on how the other castes contribute to this. Remember Brahmins were never singers and dancers in history.

5. Sanskrit is the language of the gods. Hindus, Jains, Bhuddists wrote in Sanskrit and codified their scripture. Do you consider Sanskrit language as TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

6. TB marriage was first described in silapathirkaram a Tamil sangam text. It elaborates the divine marragie of kovalan and kannagi. Do you consider the sangam text as TB text of Tamil text ??

7. Many of the Nayanars and aalwars are not Brahmins. Do you consider thier texts part of TB culture or Tamil culture ?

My question is - why should you and ther Hindus not follow TB culture which originates from the broader Hindu culture ?? It so happened only TBs are practicing today. But that does not mean it doesn't belong to you !!

This is what I said earlier, in the anti Brahmin sentiment, don't lose your own culture and traditions.

JK.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Carnatic music takes a while to get into. If you listen to it for say 10 mins every day, you will get hooked to it. In 6 months, you will be listening to it regularly as a daily ritual.
 

renuka

Well-known member
My answers in Blue.

Hi Renukaji,

Let me try and convince you otherwise.

1. Do you consider the Kshatriyas Shivan, Raman, Narayana, Krishna, etc.. as TB gods, Brahmin Gods, or Hindu Gods ??

God is beyond Varnashrama.
Avatars took birth as humans but they too are not affected by human Varnashrama.
For me its totally haram to classify God as Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

2. Do you consider Ramayana and Mahabhartam as TB or Brahmin or Hindu texts ?? Remember Ramayanam is written by Valmiki who is a non Brahmin. Most of the characters in these texts are non Brahmins.

I consider it Ithihas.
There is no religion or caste to Itihas.


3. Do you consider chanting Ramayana slokams a TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Again...its Itihas..it has no caste or culture or religion.

4. Do you consider Bhaàtanatyam and Carnatic music a TB or Brahmin or Tamil culture ?? Read Nairhrus posts on how the other castes contribute to this. Remember Brahmins were never singers and dancers in history.

Bharatanatyam means Bha(Bhava)...Ra(Raga)..Ta(Tala) & Natyam....it means a dance combines these.
Most classical dances of other countries too function on the Bha+Ra+Ta format..it has to emote besides being technical. For me its a dance.


5. Sanskrit is the language of the gods. Hindus, Jains, Bhuddists wrote in Sanskrit and codified their scripture. Do you consider Sanskrit language as TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Sanskrit is a language that has no Sanskrit race.
Every other language has a race that speaks it except Sanskrit.
Arabs claim Arabic is the language of heaven..Hindus say its Sanskrit..either way I know both..so no problems for me.

6. TB marriage was first described in silapathirkaram a Tamil sangam text. It elaborates the divine marragie of kovalan and kannagi. Do you consider the sangam text as TB text of Tamil text ??
The only Sangam I know is the Raj Kapoor, Vyjantimala starer ..seriously I dont know what Sangam text is.
Kovalan sure I know....the guy who was gunning Madhavi and gets killed by the King wrongly accused of stealing the Queens anklet and Kannagi the arsonist who sets the town on fire!LOL


7. Many of the Nayanars and aalwars are not Brahmins. Do you consider thier texts part of TB culture or Tamil culture ?
Alwars..I only know Thirumangai and the Buddha gold statue episode.
So sorry...I dont know what to say of that.
Again......I dont know about Alwars..

My question is - why should you and ther Hindus not follow TB culture which originates from the broader Hindu culture ?? It so happened only TBs are practicing today. But that does not mean it doesn't belong to you !!

Sorry...I don't consider TB culture my culture...I answered so differently from you.

This is what I said earlier, in the anti Brahmin sentiment, don't lose your own culture and traditions.

JK.

Its not about being anti Brahmin.
Its about each person's law of being..you cant make a lion be a sheep or a sheep be a lion.
Each community was made be God for specific reasons to be themselves
I am going to quote the Qura'n here on this.

Chapter (5) sūrat l-māidah (The Table spread with Food)

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ
 

renuka

Well-known member
Carnatic music takes a while to get into. If you listen to it for say 10 mins every day, you will get hooked to it. In 6 months, you will be listening to it regularly as a daily ritual.

Nope... I do not like it.
It makes me sleep.

Give me Bhangra and Dappankuttu anytime!
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Jaykay ji...I am re pasting my answer cos Prasad ji is not able to read it..
My answers in Blue.

Hi Renukaji,

Let me try and convince you otherwise.

1. Do you consider the Kshatriyas Shivan, Raman, Narayana, Krishna, etc.. as TB gods, Brahmin Gods, or Hindu Gods ??

God is beyond Varnashrama.
Avatars took birth as humans but they too are not affected by human Varnashrama.
For me its totally haram to classify God as Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

2. Do you consider Ramayana and Mahabhartam as TB or Brahmin or Hindu texts ?? Remember Ramayanam is written by Valmiki who is a non Brahmin. Most of the characters in these texts are non Brahmins.

I consider it Ithihas.
There is no religion or caste to Itihas.

3. Do you consider chanting Ramayana slokams a TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Again...its Itihas..it has no caste or culture or religion.

4. Do you consider Bhaàtanatyam and Carnatic music a TB or Brahmin or Tamil culture ?? Read Nairhrus posts on how the other castes contribute to this. Remember Brahmins were never singers and dancers in history.

Bharatanatyam means Bha(Bhava)...Ra(Raga)..Ta(Tala) & Natyam....it means a dance combines these.
Most classical dances of other countries too function on the Bha+Ra+Ta format..it has to emote besides being technical. For me its a dance.


5. Sanskrit is the language of the gods. Hindus, Jains, Bhuddists wrote in Sanskrit and codified their scripture. Do you consider Sanskrit language as TB or Brahmin or Hindu culture ??

Sanskrit is a language that has no Sanskrit race.
Every other language has a race that speaks it except Sanskrit.
Arabs claim Arabic is the language of heaven..Hindus say its Sanskrit..either way I know both..so no problems for me.


6. TB marriage was first described in silapathirkaram a Tamil sangam text. It elaborates the divine marragie of kovalan and kannagi. Do you consider the sangam text as TB text of Tamil text ??
The only Sangam I know is the Raj Kapoor, Vyjantimala starer ..seriously I dont know what Sangam text is.
Kovalan sure I know....the guy who was gunning Madhavi and gets killed by the King wrongly accused of stealing the Queens anklet and Kannagi the arsonist who sets the town on fire!LOL


7. Many of the Nayanars and aalwars are not Brahmins. Do you consider thier texts part of TB culture or Tamil culture ?
Alwars..I only know Thirumangai and the Buddha gold statue episode.
So sorry...I dont know what to say of that.
Again......I dont know about Alwars..

My question is - why should you and ther Hindus not follow TB culture which originates from the broader Hindu culture ?? It so happened only TBs are practicing today. But that does not mean it doesn't belong to you !!

Sorry...I don't consider TB culture my culture...I answered so differently from you.

This is what I said earlier, in the anti Brahmin sentiment, don't lose your own culture and traditions.

JK.

Its not about being anti Brahmin.
Its about each person's law of being..you cant make a lion be a sheep or a sheep be a lion.
Each community was made be God for specific reasons to be themselves
I am going to quote the Qura'n here on this.

Chapter (5) sūrat l-māidah (The Table spread with Food)

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Every religion borrows from some other religion.
So a "TB" group can borrow from Hinduism.
Lingayats claimed they are a separate group for the worldly (quota) purpose, not religious.
So a "TB" group can borrow Brahmin, Non-Brahmin, Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc.
But still, claim a separate entity from Hinduism.
I am not advocating that we do it.
It was just supporting an idea put forth by another member in post#39.
 

prasad1

Well-known member


Do you have any hard facts and figures to substantiate this, like some Government report etc.? Will be
interested in that.



Sure. Let us have some FACTS before we discuss and debate.
:


ZEBRAJI,
Thanks for selectively asking me for supporting facts. As I can do it.
Thank you.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Sure, any religion or group can borrow from another and practice it.

The point is, many of these are not exclusive and hence the majority Hindus should adopt them.
 
How I wish that someone resourceful amongst the Tamil Brahmins file a suit in the supreme court of India asking for granting TBs the status of followers of a minority religion in India like the Parsees. Yes, our faith and practices are far different from what is followed by the majority of the socalled Hindu religion at least in Tamilnadu.
Vaagmi had mentioned this before too. The sentiment is understandable. After all, several other groups crave for minority status in India. The jains got theirs' recently in the previous UPA regime. The Lingayats, the Ramakrishna mission group, the Sathya Sai group all have fought and/or fighting for minority status in India.

If we follow closely, we can understand that the motivation of all these different groups is that they want to protect their institutions from government interference. Right now, only minorities have this protection.
Therefore the law is the primary distorting feature here. If this law is fixed, then most, if not all, these groups will be happy to stay as Hindus.

As our dear member KRN always reminds me, this is a singular failure of this govt to fix these laws and make the legal status of hindus on par with the other religionists. Of course, the primary minority religions and the secularists will oppose such a law, that grants parity to hindus, tooth and nail. Preserving the special privileges of the minority religions is their goal, which they hide under the garb of opposing hindutva. But if a govt with significant majority in the LS cannot achieve it, then the fault lies with the government.

I also agree that TBs will be doing a disservice to themselves by distancing from other hindus. Even if one concedes that there are lot of differences in TB culture, there are lot of similarities between TB and hindu culture too, the way it is practiced now. Our culture is now an amalgam of TB culture of yore which includes all the nityakarmas and rituals and the bakthi culture which we cannot truly call our exclusive culture (pity it is derided so much in this forum). Even in tamil nadu, despite the several decade rule of dravidianists and their propaganda, the TBs have good relationships with other hindus.

Treating hindus on par with minorities is the way to go. Not fragmenting hindus into several little groups each having their own set of laws and rules.
 
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