• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Why every thread ends in Caste - Can this site take a break from caste

Status
Not open for further replies.
dear sarang,

re your post #24

thank you for your explanations. i respect your views and appreciate your comments.

the only reason i address you, is because, we do not like innuendos. when one writes, and when one reads, especially subjects which are pointedly accusing, we might wonder as to whom it is addressed. that is a forum courtesy i believe, and i think, as a responsible member, it would do good for all of us, to observe the courtesies.

if i see innuendo posts, i would if applicable and feel like, would respond as if they were addressed to me. it could be. could be not. that is immaterial. minimal courtesies need to be observed, in the broader interests of the forum.

again, i wish to reiterate i have no quarrel with you, and even now i am not certain whether your diatribe and wishing to kick out folks were meant to me. i took it up, because, i feel, no one even should be given a sleight of hand indication, that he or she is not welcome.

after all we welcomed you. you have no right to be here, any more than any of us. to put it otherwise, you have every right to be here, as much as any of us. you might now want to disclaim or in my opinion try to deflect what i understood, but the onus of that statement and how it sounded, is very much your responsibility.

i do apologize for causing you any hurt, as it is not my intention to inflict any pain, mildly or otherwise. we are after all writing in a language, which has been understood so differently in the various parts of the world where it is being practised.

re the treatment of widows 50 years before and such, i congratulate your family and village for being so enlightened even at that time. unfortunately my family and those of my palghat villages were not. these are the only ones that i know.

without even our realizing, we have all reformed or changed. if our great grandfather, suddenly makes his presence to our household today, i do not, how many things he would identify or identify with. for starter, the presence of the refrigerator and its direct contradiction to the concept of paththu.

or the presence of lavatories inside the house.

my approach to all aspects of a tambram life is from the point of ever changing world. mostly these are observations. as all observations, these are probably flawed, but this is how i see them. thank you again, for explaining your pov.

i would only caution against intolerance. it is said that as one progresses along the path of knowledge, one understands more and accepts more. in this instance, i think, by your elaboration of addressing us as kula drohis, does not vibe or be in sync with the erudtion of the gita that you have quoted. gita is not about exclusion, afaik.

wishing you well.
 
Last edited:
Mind set up and life style differ from persons to persons accoording to their family background. what is equality first we came to know. the five fingers in the hand are not equal in appearance but for doing any work all the five fingers have to join together. Like in the society every body born in a particular caste and religion according to their prarabdha karma and they have to dispose their duties as their tradition. if everybody do their duties perfectly the question of imbalance does not arise. now a days people getting academic education for their lievelihood think that they can talk anything and anybody and interfering in the way of living of other persons without knowing their way of living. with our limited knowledge and mind set up we can not remove the caste system. if that is the case as Bhagwan Ramana told you will find equal only in your sleep.
 
... Like in the society every body born in a particular caste and religion according to their prarabdha karma and they have to dispose their duties as their tradition. if everybody do their duties perfectly the question of imbalance does not arise. now a days people getting academic education for their lievelihood think that they can talk anything and anybody and interfering in the way of living of other persons without knowing their way of living. ....

sukumar,

i am not so sure, that for generations, those who cleaned our latrines, by cleaning the wastes from the buckets, would heed to your call for them, to stick with their ancient profession as it is their karma.:)

dont you think, some of the reasons for the imbalances, is because, in the past, till india's independence, many communities did not receive or were denied education, as if it was unworthy of them.

if you check into travancore history, sir c.p. ramaswamy iyer, who was the dewan, encouraged the dalits to convert to christianity. he told them, that this was the quickest method to acquire free education, and quickest method for upward mobility. sir cp proved right, as today kerala christians are among the most advanced folks of india.

it would have not done any good, and would do no good now, to tell these folks that they were behaving against their karma.

i have just picked kerala christians as an example, and please do not consider this as the one and only instance of a community behaving out of their karmic traditions to prosper in this world.

for most of us, there is this intense desire, to cast aside poverty and seek wealth, comfort and a good standard of living. in today's world apparently, next to inheritance, education is one sure way to achieve, for most people, rudimentary comforts in life.

i think, most of them, much as they might pay lip service to the concept of fulfilling your previous life's karma in this life, are not going to take this concept that seriously as to jeopardize their livelihood or ambition.

that is my take on anyone who suggest that each community should know 'its place' in society and behave thus. those theories i think, were cast away since independence, and further reinforced particularly in tamil nadu with the assumption of dravidian power in 1967 and onwards.

why, i dont see any tambrams either going back to their ancient vocation - learning the vedas and opting for a life of poverty.

the world is changing, and changing aggressively. wishing other folks would go away and not interfere with us, is only wishful thinking. unless one is equally goal oriented and aggressive, one is meant for gradual disappearance and annhilation. the world is full of examples of tribes and castes, disappearing, because they did not adjust to the reality of the changing world.

i think it is not correct to quote ramana mahirshi, especially when proposing something akin to rigid caste practises, segregation which is what i think is meant, in the following sentence of yours, 'if everybody do their duties perfectly the question of imbalance does not arise. now a days people getting academic education for their lievelihood think that they can talk anything and anybody and interfering in the way of living of other persons without knowing their way of living'...

the reality is that all communities are and will get educated. the reality is that everyone will talk anything they like, because it is guaranteed by the constitution. the reality is that people will interfere in other's lives, due to work, marriage or service (like doctor, servant etc). we cannot live isolated. we cannot afford to. neither will the world let us anymore.

such is reality.
 
Mind set up and life style differ from persons to persons accoording to their family background. what is equality first we came to know. the five fingers in the hand are not equal in appearance but for doing any work all the five fingers have to join together. Like in the society every body born in a particular caste and religion according to their prarabdha karma and they have to dispose their duties as their tradition.

Shri sukumar,

People doing their duties according to caste and religion has long gone out of vogue, you will have to agree. Otherwise you and I (and most others here, brahmin by birth) would have been orthodox vaideekis spending our days before homakundams, evenings in gaayatree japam etc., and would not even bother to learn english or about computers.

if everybody do their duties perfectly the question of imbalance does not arise. now a days people getting academic education for their lievelihood think that they can talk anything and anybody and interfering in the way of living of other persons without knowing their way of living.
sukumar, is it your view that people should better mind their own duties perfectly and should not go in for academic eduaction? Is such a social set-up imaginable in this 21st. century, except among some remote tribal populations like jarawas? Further, there seems to be a hidden nuance to the effect that making posts in web forums like this one tantamounts to "interfering in the way of living of other persons without knowing their way of living", how realistic is this? Does anyone imagine even for a moment that what he/she reads here is necessarily to be followed even at the cost of difficulty/inconvenience/personal objection? Is this forum a law-enforcement authority?

with our limited knowledge and mind set up we can not remove the caste system. if that is the case as Bhagwan Ramana told you will find equal only in your sleep.

I don't know which actual words of Ramana you are citing, did he say we can remove caste system only in our sleep? or, did he say, you will find equals only in sleep(?)? Kindly clarify.

I do not think our mindset is such that it will resist removal of caste system or caste-based practices that strongly. For example if GOI gives sufficient incentives for inter-caste marriages with sc/st people (male /female) I am sure tabras will also go in for those. But our ignorance or "limited knowledge" or the skewed view that we as brahmins have been harbouring for generations will take one or two generations more to disappear from significant % of the tabra population, and once the critical level of casteless people is achieved, then the whole edifice will crumble fast. After all did not Bharathiar who is held in high regard, announce ஜாதிகள் இல்லையடி பாப்பா?
 
Dear Members

I see your strong point is the treatment of widows in your family; you must have written about it at least a dozen times. I have also written that my experience is different. 97% of the widows in my family and neighbourhood, as I remember, wore coloured saree, did not shave their heads and were active participants in the daily chore, visited temples and attended discourses and what not. Other communities too follow some harsh practices. Some widows choose to lead a restricted life ; in the late 90s, when my boss’s father died, his mother became a virtual sanyasi – gave up non veg, ornaments, and many other comforts in life, of her own choice.

I think that the main thing missing is the time period over when these things happened (ie.the positive things about widows by Shri. Sarang). I believe what Shri. Kunjuppu wrote was happening all over TN (and Kerala) at that time

sarang, in my family till 40 years ago, it was the custom, on widowhood, to shear the hair of the females, to give them white cloth, and cast them to the kitchen and backyard for the rest of their lives. i would presume you would too consider this barbaric and would not dream of perpetuating this to your mother, sister or daughter. i am the same. so what is your problem, when we talk of reforms, and the need to shed obscenely disgusting practices. is this not liberating ourselves from the unnecessary baggages handed over to us by our ancestors.

I once again agree with Shri. Kunjuppu's post. I have witnessed two to three 'mottai paapaaththi' in my family.

There was one lady whose husband died in the mid 80's. She is my distant grandma. She did not have her head shaven. She wore colourful sarees, silk sarees, gold chain (not the original Thaali chain though). She had her forehead blank i.e. no 'pottu' and no flowers on her head.

I have two 'Maami' who became widows. They also did not have their hair shaven. They too followed the above.

Now, I have one sister-in-law who was (unfortunately) widowed at the age of just 38. She wore a small black pottu always and always wore the thaali chain without the 'M' thingy. When we visited her last few years before (my in-laws also reside in the same village) she came to stay with us (i.e. in-laws) and cooked yummy food for us (she is a Great Talented Cook). During those times, my mother-in-law would buy 'உதிரி மல்லிப்பூ' and ask her to 'தொடுத்து' fy for me.

I used to feel so embarrassed to adorn it on my hair when the person who did that is not allowed to adorn it. I am till date ashamed that I did not voice my feelings! But I know that even if I did the in-laws and society would not have allowed that.

The last time we went, she was in Chennai (not in her native village). We went dress shopping and I bought jasmine for myself and my daughter. I bought for her too (with a very positive, pragmatic - everyone equal, mind)! You guys guess what - she happily accepted it and I myself adorned it on her hair with a hair clip!

She lives happily in Chennai, dorning nightys, colourful sarees and adorning flowers on her hair! I am/was very happy for her.

P.S. She has no idea of marrying again - (like Kunjuppu said before in another post) she enjoys the freedom to the full extent! Apart from close neighbours she tells everyone (including 'cylinder man' and 'EB man') that her husband is in Dubai! :) :) She is Happy!!!


 
ஜாதி மறுப்பு பற்றி எழுதிய எல்லோருக்கும் என்னுடைய பணிவான விண்ணப்பம்
ஜாதி என்பது தற்போது மக்களிடையே புறக்கணிக்கப்பட்டு வருகிறதா? இப்பொழுது எழுத்தறிவு பெற்றவர்கள் அதிகமான பிறகு ஜாதி வேண்டாம் என்ற மனப்போக்கு வந்திருக்கிறதா? இதற்க்கெல்லாம் விடை யாராவது கூற முடியுமா? அவர்கள் முக்கியமாக செயலில் அதை கடைபிடிக்கிறார்களா?
நான் குறிப்பிட்டது தவறாக புரிந்து கொள்ளப்பட்டிருக்கிறது. யார் எந்த ஜாதியில் பிறந்திருந்தாலும் எல்லோரும் அவர்கள் ஜாதி வழக்கப்படிதான் வளர்க்கப்டுகிரார்கள். இதில் தவறு எதுவும் இல்லை. மேலும் ஜாதி முறையை கடை பிடிப்பது தவறும் கிடையாது. தற்பொழுது பிராம்மணரிடையே அவருடைய குலப் பழக்கங்கள் யாதும் இல்லை என்பது. ஒரு பிராமணன் பிறந்ததிலிருந்து இறக்கும் வரை நாமகரணம், உபநயனம், திருமணம், ஈமச் சடங்கு எல்லாம் பிராம்மண வழக்கபடிதானே கடைபிடிக்கிறான். அதேபோல மற்ற ஜாதிகளிலும் அவர்களுடைய குல வழக்குபடிதான் எல்லாவற்றையும் செய்கிறார்கள். இதிலே தவறு என்ன வந்தது? தவறு என்பது ஒருவருக்கொருவர் ஒப்பிட்டு என்னுடையது உயரந்தது உன்னுடையது தாழ்ந்தது என்பதினால் வேற்றுமை வருகிறது. இங்கு ஏட்டுப் படித்தவர்களிடம் தான் உயர்ந்தவன் தாழ்ந்தவன் இன்னும் அதிகமாக இருக்கிறது. ஜாதி இல்லை என்றால் ஏன் இன்னமமும் சுதந்திரம் கிடைத்து 54 வருடங்கள் கடந்த பிறகும் இட ஒதுக்கீடு கடை பிடிக்கபடுகிறது. அரசியல் அமைப்பு காவலர்களான அரசியல்வாதிகள் ஏன் இன்னமும் குறிப்பிட்ட தொகுதியில் ஜாதி பெருவாரியான பகுதிகளில் திறமையானவர்களுக்கு மதிப்பு அளிக்காமல் அயோக்கியன் பொறுக்கியாக இருந்தாலும் அந்த ஜாதியில் உள்ளவர்களையே ஏன் தேர்தலில் நிற்க வைக்கிராகள்? ஜாதிகள் உதாசினப்படுதப்பட்டு விட்டது என்றால் முற்போக்கு பிராம்மணன் சேரியில் பிறந்த பெண்ணை திருமணம் செய்வது காணப்படுகிறதா?
ஏட்டுப் படிப்பு படித்தர்களிடையேதான் ஜாதி மனப்பான்மை அதிகமாக வந்திருக்கிறது என்பது உண்மை. அரசாங்க அலுலகலங்களில் ஜாதி துவேஷம் ஏன் அதிகமாக இருக்கிறது?
ஒரு சிறு உதாரணம் ஒன்று. தற்போழுது ஒரு திரைப்படத்திற்கு தெய்வத் திருமகன் என்று பெயர் இட்ட போது அதற்க்கு தேவர் சமூகத்தினர் எதிர்ப்பு தெரிவித்தால் படத்தின் பெயர் தெய்வத் திருமகள் என்று மாற்றப்பட்டது. எனவே ஜாதி என்பது ஏதாவது ரூபத்தில் இருக்கத்தான் செய்யும். இதுவே மற்ற மதங்களில் இருந்தால் நாம் நம்முடைய குரலை அங்கு ஓங்கச் செய்ய முடியுமா? (உதாரணம் இசுலாமியப் பெண்கள் பர்கா அணிவது). இதைதான் யாரும் அவர்களுக்கு சுதந்திரம் இருக்கிறது என்று எல்லா இடத்திலும் நுழைந்து விட முடியாது என்பது. மேடு பள்ளங்கள் என்பது இருக்கத்தான் செய்யும். அதற்குள் நாம் பயணம் எப்படி செய்கிறோம் என்பதுதான் முக்கியம். இங்கு புரட்சி என்பது பேச்சில் இருந்தால் போதாது அது செயலிலும் இருக்க வேண்டும். எனவே ஏட்டு சுரைக்காய் கவைக்கு உதவாது.
பகவான் ரமணர் பற்றி. அவருடைய முக்கிய உபதேசம் சும்மா இரு என்பது. சும்மா என்றால் மனத்தாலும் சும்மா இருப்பது. ஒரு சமூக சீர்திருத்தவாதி பகவானிடம் வந்து நீங்கள் இப்படி சும்மா இருப்பதை காட்டிலும் வெளியில் வந்து சமூகத்தில் இருக்கும் ஏற்றத்தாழ்வுகளை ஏன் நீக்கக் கூடாது என்று கேட்டார். அதற்க்கு பகவான் சும்மா இருக்கவே அவர் மறுபடியும் இப்படி சும்மா இருந்தால் என்ன அர்த்தம் என்று நையாண்டி செய்யவே அதற்கு பகவான் அவரிடம் போய்த் தூங்கும் (இரவாக இருந்ததால்) அப்பொழுது எல்லாரும் உமக்கு சமமாகத் தெரிவார்கள் என்றார். எனவே முதலில் நாம் நம்மை தூய்மைபடுத்திக் கொண்ட பிறகுதான் மற்றவர்களிடம் இருக்கும் குறைகளை சுட்டிக் காட்ட முடியும்.

ஜாதிகள் இல்லையடி பாப்பா என்ற பாரதியாருடைய வாக்கும் இதோ.

' குலத் தாழ்ச்சி உயர்ச்சி சொல்லல் பாவம்
நீதி உயர்ந்த மதி கல்வி
அன்பு நிறைய உடையவர்கள் மேலோர்'
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top