Sri Sangom Sir,
In my view, honesty and hard working are also indoctrinated concepts which may require a bit more analysis. Menial labour will definitely will fall in the category of hard working, but it has kept people from times immemorable only poor. Honesty seldom brings in the rewards commensurate with its virtue, so much so that some Hindu scriptures treat honesty to be a "norm" that it does not attract a bad karma which dishonesty does. History is full of instances where honest people suffered only tragedies and whether karma compensated them in other births no one knows.
Economic rise and fall of nations range from many decades to centuries to even millennia and it is dependent on so many external and internal factors other than only religion. It is doubtful if only honesty and hard work will lift our country to a better economic paradise For example,
Japan has been in recession since late 1980s with no signs of recovery but there are no reported instances of religion being a contributory factor.
The second is the case of Greece. Alexander the great invaded India and many other parts of the world at around 1st century BC or so and was named the world conqueror. But the same Greece is now making rounds with the begging bowls to the IMF World Bank etc. trying to negotiate better begging conditions.
If someone has done an empirical study of the negative aspects of religion to keep someone or some nations poor, I am not aware of it but till then I would assume that we are posting here based on our perceptions which may or may not be true.
Please post your thoughts here in the forum, or PM it to me.
Shri zebra Sir,
I have already given my views on honesty and hardworking — as natural human traits, in my view.
I will first give you my idea about Karma. Of course these are based on my perceptions which may or may not be true.
As the BG says, "karmaṇyevādhikāraste mā phaleṣu kadācana". Hence, we all do Karmas but their phalas are not within our control. The Karmas and their phalas are like debit and credit entries in an account. When a person dies, there will be some outstanding entries and these represents the karmas left behind by that person. The responding entries for these outstandings (phalas) will have to happen "in future" in the linear time dimension in which we humans live.
The karma is not a notion alone; karmas are, possibly, entities having their own micro- or nano- dimensions, most likely in the scale of the genes. Since the outstanding karmas left behind one person will represent some aspects of the personality and traits of that person while alive, all such karma particles will normally form one kernel; some small parts from one kernel may get added on to another and vice versa. When a new birth occurs, one of these kernels will get attached to the Universal Life Force which would have already started activating that embryo. Together with the kernel, the new physical body is formed and the kernel firmly attached to the Life Force, makes us feel the "aham" feeling. On death (which happens when all the karmas in the kernel have been experienced in the present life) the Life Force gets detached from both the kernel and the body. A new kernel is now formed, and so on.
Hence, there is no jīvātmā as we call. Each new birth comes with its own load of unexpiated karmas, the phalas of which are experienced in the current birth. That was why, possibly, Gaudapadacharya states,_
न निरोधो नचोत्पत्तिर्न बद्धो न च साधकः ।
न मुमुक्षुर्न वै मुक्तः इत्येषा परमार्थता ॥
na nirodho nacotpattirna baddho na ca sādhakaḥ |
na mumukṣurna vai muktaḥ ityeṣā paramārthatā ||
(
There is no disappearance, nor origination; no one in bondage, no one who aims at sādhana; no one who is desirous of salvation, no one who is liberated — This is the highest truth.)
Just as one individual's karma load left behind determines what kind of a birth will be necessary in the next entity to be born, the collective character of the karma loads of all the people within a group, country, etc., will also determine the characteristics of the respective group, country, etc., in which the succeeding new entities will have to be born in order to facilitate their experiencing the phalas of the karma loads with which they are born. This is what I call the collective karma.
Now, coming to the instances given by you,_
1. "Menial labour will definitely will fall in the category of hard working, but it has kept people from times immemorable only poor...."
I don't know whether you say that menial labourers all over the world have been poor from times immemorial. If so that is correct because menial itself means not requiring much skill and lacking prestige. It also goes without saying that menial worker need not be hardworking but can "chothappufy" in most cases unless there is a strict supervisor overseeing him.
2. "Honesty seldom brings in the rewards commensurate with its virtue, so much so that some Hindu scriptures treat honesty to be a "norm" that it does not attract a bad karma which dishonesty does. History is full of instances where honest people suffered only tragedies and whether karma compensated them in other births no one knows."
Honesty is treated as a norm possibly because it is the default mode. When a country such a India is taken with its long history of humans living therein, and when we know, for a fact, that dishonesty is rather the norm here now, honesty naturally will be at a disadvantage. There are instances like that of Saint Bhadrachala Ramadas who pilferred treasury funds to build a Rama temple, was imprisoned for pilfering but Lord Rama came and rescued Ramadas! When we have religion upholding such (hi) stories what else can you expect?
We cannot have any scientific or legally valid proof for honest people being rewarded later, but if you will go by my theory, these honest karmas must have found their phalas in some other countries where honesty is not a disadvantage.
3. Economic rise and fall of nations range from many decades to centuries to even millennia and it is dependent on so many external and internal factors other than only religion. It is doubtful if only honesty and hard work will lift our country to a better economic paradise For example,
Japan has been in recession since late 1980s with no signs of recovery but there are no reported instances of religion being a contributory factor.
I do not bet on our country getting to be a better economic paradise merely due to honesty and hardworking nature of the people, if developed. But, definitely, this country will become a better place to live. Japan cannot be compared to India, but my impression is that the Japanese have better quality of living than Indians.
...
to be continued.
