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Who is really protecting what?

  • Thread starter Thread starter BostonSankara
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BostonSankara

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Sivayanamaha!

I have spent nearly 20 years deeply, lovingly, and whole-heartedly researching and embracing Hinduism for all of it's good and bad. I have worshiped in every temple I could (in the US) and I have eagerly engaged in discourse and the listening of lectures by knowing pundits. However I find it quite odd that not ONE temple priest has been willing or had the courage to support me in Upanayana (no I'm not Brahmin -by birth- although certainly I am in heart). That said here is my question... Why do those who task themselves with upholding vedas support me (eg Arya Samaj) yet those who truly live a far more Tantric (puranic, aagamic) life and religious practice which didn't even conceive these restrictions and discriminatory practices do not support me. I can change my name through Namkarana but I want my Yajnopaveet and I want my sons (WHATEVER COLOR OR CASTE BACKGROUND THEY ARE) to have it as well I cannot get it. I DO NOT want to change my philosophical beliefs to align with those different from me to obtain what should be mine. I feel so perplexed by this. What do these priests believe that they are protecting? Would I find such discrimination at a place like Sri Sri Seetharama Gurukulam Veda Patasala ? I just want to become a pundit to propagate the intricate beauties of our religion. How has 20 years of study began to culminate in discrimination against me? I just want to learn Tamil, continue to study Sanskrit, and be accepted by a lineage. I feel so frustrated sometimes. I try so hard to educate fellow white people and especially yogins (I practice avidly) about the roots of our traditions yet the very thing I try to defend and elucidate seems to not want me at all. I am not a huge bhaktar although Indians call me Shivapriya even as a nickname so joining a bunch of white people like the ICKON's has no draw for me. Why in god's own name would followers of The Lord of Cremation Grounds, Ganas, Aghoris, The Ash Smeared, and Drinker of Poison not accept me?! Is he not a Great Lord Loving of All?! Why do the Vaishnavas seem to not have such feelings (or not as strongly)? Please pardon my frustration but I prostrate myself before the community and ask for answers. Would I experience this in Chennai?

-
Shankar
 
Boston,

i am really saddened by your situation. dont have any answers, except, if you glance at many of our threads here, you have a window to our tamil brahmin prejudices and narrow mindedness, all cascading under the garb of tradition and sanathana dharma.

there were a few folks here, who had the werewithal to question this; those are gone as of a few days ago from this forum, and those would probably have given you, some good explanations.

and folks like me, who remain here in the forum, and who wish to reinvent ourselves and shed the albatrosses that have been passed on, and which we tambrams appear to bear, adamantly stubbornly stupidly, to our own detriment - are not well versed in our own heritage to accommodate your queries. so i squirm in discomfort, and have no succour for your predicament.

the tambram prejudices of today, a classic case of 'cutting off our nose to spite our face'. i say this, with plenty of sorrow.

Boston, i am sure, you will eventually find a way. till then, pray continue with your quest.

i am very sorry sir, and really apologize to see you in such a predicament.

God Bless.
 
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Namaste Amala!

Thank you so much for your response!

Yes I am familiar with them and I do enjoy their work and publications. While I love their approach in many ways I somehow feel like I want something different. It is actually quite hard to articulate. Grihasta dharma and temple ritual are really what I love and feel is right for me I am also very focused of Sri Lalita Tripurasundari and they are incredibly Siva specific with little focus on Devi and no real concept of Ishtadevata. I truly love Saiva Siddhanta but more along the lines of Tirumular's Tirumantiram that Sri Yogaswamis Natchintanai which puts forth some concepts I have a hard time agreeing with. Truly its the siddhanta interpretations of their lineage once they hit Sri Lanka that we begin to differ in opinion. While beautiful in their focus on dharma they seem to leave being a true Purohit to the Adi Saiva (which is appropriate I guess) however this is what I truly desire to be.

In Deep Thanks,
Shankar
 
Namaste Kunjupu,

Thank you so much for your post. It truly means a lot to me.

Sincerely,
Shankar
 
I would like to point out (for the sake of context) that I was born and raised in a part of the US steeped in racism and one which participated in slavery until quite recently (historically speaking). This eventually caused a schism in our nation and subsequently a large and deadly Civil War. We have been struggling for nearly 200 years now to eradicate these prejudices and have come extremely far. Maybe this fact makes it harder for me to accept discrimination. Had the people of the Southern United States won that war this entire earth would be a different place. A much much MUCH darker place.

-
Shankar
 
I would like to point out (for the sake of context) that I was born and raised in a part of the US steeped in racism and one which participated in slavery until quite recently (historically speaking). This eventually caused a schism in our nation and subsequently a large and deadly Civil War. We have been struggling for nearly 200 years now to eradicate these prejudices and have come extremely far. Maybe this fact makes it harder for me to accept discrimination. Had the people of the Southern United States won that war this entire earth would be a different place. A much much MUCH darker place.

-
Shankar

Amala had given a wonderful saiva website , their 'dharmic' teachings are exceptional. You may also try, ISKCON (Hare Krishna).

Coming to the Upaveetham and other samskArams, they are solely for the strict adherents of Hindu/Vedic basics (non-violence and Hygiene). Else, both the initiating priest/guru and the participant will incur offences, when violated. Acc. to shAstra, for all the offences we commit after taking dIksha and other initiations, our Guru will incur most share of our Karma. With this shAstric restrictions, people are very cautious to incur bad influences, so they cannot be blamed. But, with so many born hindus themselves get lost these days, with some one seriously interested and devoted to Hindu Divinities like You, should have been taken care! Don't compare or worry about others, as there is always a variety - mix of fallen and realized in the creation. Everyone acts solely on their karma and granted by the Divine Will.

But , the ShAstrAs have a different take on True Devotion.
Also, for non-Brahmins, Upaveetham is not a requirement, only Brahmins have to pursue rigorous rituals else will incur 100 times bad-karma/offences. For others, Service oriented Devotion reaps more benefits, 100 times powerful than Brahminical Rituals/Nithya-Karma. One following the shAstrAs and accepting oneself before that Divine Great Lord is the secret to Surrender!

For all these, Sri Krishna has clear instructions in Bhagavad Gita (Sloka 18.66),
'sarva dharmAn paritjyajya mAm Ekam charanam vraja',
When one cannot perform certain karmAs (oblations) either due to dis-ability or in-ability, TOTALLY Surrender unto me, I will oar you to the other shore of liberation!!

In the same lines, mantrAs and esp. Pranava (AUM) should not be recited without adhering to the strict pre-requisites, but hindus themselves take that as anthem (even anthem should be chanted while standing up and saluted!) or any cinema song, and solely being materialistic to reap short-term benefits , name their kids as 'Aum', chant anywhere outside the home or temple altar, be in any profession or mind-set or physical condition.

Instead of people feeling self-important or resorting to material benefits/reasons or sticking to those 'Powerful' mantrAs, people should get humble and just chant the simple mantrAs without bIja mantrams like 'Hare Krishna', 'namah shivAya', 'namO vAsudEvaya' etc, or call out the gods' 1000 of names with REAL, HUMBLE devotion. They earn quick answers from the Divine, than chanting Bija mantrAs inappropriately (and get offfences), by just giving up those don'ts of the shAstrAs.
 
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I sympathies with your situation, but unlike others I am not apologetic. Every organization has some restriction and regulations. I can not become a free mason, or a Harvard alumni because I do not meet their criteria.
Any body can be Hindu, and follow the teaching without changing their religion. The external monikers are purely for show. But Amala gave you a good option.
I defend the so called "priests", they do not have the authority to do what you are asking them to do.
 
"
and folks like me, who remain here in the forum, and who wish to reinvent ourselves and shed the albatrosses that have been passed on, and which we tambrams appear to bear, adamantly stubbornly stupidly, to our own detriment - are not well versed in our own heritage to accommodate your queries. so i squirm in discomfort, and have no succour for your predicament.
the tambram prejudices of today, a classic case of 'cutting off our nose to spite our face'. i say this, with plenty of sorrow."

I feel this statement is highly insulting to the entire community. When we do not have all the information, and jumping in with both feet in the deep end is less than helpful. Even the people who left had their prejudices. None of us have any authority to change the rules of any organization. We can sympathies with an outsiders and try to find them solutions, but beating the entire community is not a solutions.
 
Namaste Prasad,

"I can not become a free mason, or a Harvard alumni because I do not meet their criteria." On the contrary you most certainly can. To deny you that is patently illegal here. I cannot count the number of Harvard alum who are of Indian decent (I worked for the med. school's teaching hospital for years MGH). The freemasons (The Worlds Oldest Fraternity) most certainly do not discriminate on race, religion, etc. All they ask is that you uphold their code and live it. That said I see your point and you are correct. Many organizations have rules restricting membership.

There is no need to defend the priests really. I certainly don't mean to blame them as much as question what exactly is being protected by restricting someone from studying the Vedas and performing Sandhyavandhanam. I follow the Yamas and Niyamas and maintain a clean life. I know many children of Sivacharias who don't. Does someone suffer these violations? The lineages are what will suffer if they do not grow.

Calling myself "Hindu" means little. I live as one. In the states I know more about our religion than most American born Desis and my friends of Indian decent often look to me for answers on certain questions. To worship god and live as a Hindu is pure heresy to most any organized religion that is not Hinduism. Forgive me for seeking legitimization on that front. I actively gave up Christianity to practice Sanatana Dharma. There is much more to it than a name.

I am not turning my back on Amala's suggestion. I wish it didn't seem that way. I know the monks of Kaui's Monastery well and have performed seva for them many times. I believe the orthodoxy must reform before it is lost. I guess that concerns me a lot. . . I want my future son to wear the sacred thread, study the Vedas, and do Sandhyavandhanam for the benefit of the world as a whole. That is all really.
 
dear boston,

this happened in 1978 in toronto.

two friends of mine decided to get married. one was a non practising jewess, the other a lapsed roman catholic from bethlehem (yes there catholics out there).

her family were adamant that they should marry according to jewish rituals, which the male had no problem with. he had no family here to press the catholic side of the case.

but one of the pre reqs of the jewish wedding was conversion, which both of them demurred.

none of the rabbis in toronto or vicinity would marry them. finally we (remember these were my best friends) located rabbi greenberg in buffalo, then a sprightly 70 year old with a mop of white hair and twinkle in the eye. we went to buffalo, and on hearing us, immediately agreed.

at the wedding, all the folks who held the hupah including yours truly were non jewish. by choice of the groom and bride.

the speech by rabbi greenberg was moving. it dealt more with the smallness of man, as oppposed to the greatness of god. something very similar to a tamil proverb, that before god bestows, one has to get the blessing of the priest. greenberg was the only rabbi north of new york city to perform interfaith weddings, and after 34 years the couple are still strong, 3 grown up children and fulfilling life.

i dont know why i thought of that story now, but seemed appropriate to share the hypocracy of men, when it came to God.

let me enquire around, and who knows we will turn lucky.
 
I can not become a free mason, or a Harvard alumni because I do not meet their criteria." On the contrary you most certainly can. To deny you that is patently illegal here.

No you can not without meeting their criteria.
Any group can deny others from joining that group. I can not participate in LPGA tour as I am not a women. It is legitimate criteria.
Amala gave you a way out, but you want to force your wish on others.

That is my last post on this thread.
 
"That is my last post on this thread."

That is good news because you speak on what you do not know. The Kauai Aadhenam only trains priests from within it's sanyasins. Did you miss the part where I said "grihasta" ? No you didn't you just don't know what you are talking about.

"but you want to force your wish on others."

This is called "internet flame bait" it is something said meant to incite an argument. It won't really work on me I grew up on the Internet. Better luck next time and may your pride wane as your experience grows. Thank you for your input and thank you for stopping once you began simply trying to start an argument and stopped contributing.

Namaste Sir Prasad.
 
Dear Sri BostonSankara Ji,

As I have read your posting, it looks like you want to become a Brahmin Grihastha, following the Purva Mimamsa tradition.

Obviously, it requires acceptance from someone to initiate you. As Sri Govinda Ji has pointed out, there are number of edicts and requirements for someone to be initiated in to this tradition, as for a long time now the edict has been that you are a Brahmin by birth.

I know in the Smartha tradition, the Kanchi Matham in TamilNadu is very orthodox, however I have recently read that the Sringeri Matham may be more amenable to be flexible. I would recommend you to go to their website and write to them about your predicament. They may point you the right way, as they have resources here in the USA.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Boston,

Forgive me if I am wrong and humble pranams to you again if I am wrong but your style of writing seems very very Indian to me.

Most of the while its Indians who are very concern about the so called discrimination practices of certain Veda Pathashalas.

Most Non Indian who have embarced Sanathana Dharma focus on drinking the essence of religion/god ...its always Indians who are more concern about the who gets to mix the ingredients of the essence and the secret recipe held by Brahmins etc.


But anyway most important focus on God.

After all its Chidananda Roopah Shivoham Shivoham finally.

Once again forgive me if I am wrong by writing this post and I dont mind even if you get angry with me but you seem like an understanding person so please dont take this post too personally.

regards,
renu
 
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Dear Renuka,

Yes you are incorrect. I am absolutely American. Born in the US and raised in the US. I am against discrimination within the orthodoxy because I desire to be orthodox and represent Hinduism (via the Hindu Students Association and Hindu American Foundation). I purport that the history of Hinduism is misunderstood yet after coming here for simple advice I am seeing truth in the traditional American condemnations of the religion. It's OK you look at my arguments and think I am Indian. If you heard me chant Sri Rudraprashnaha you'd assume I was Tamil too. The swaras are like that. Done right and all praise of god is ambiguous. I will pass on taking offence to this inquiry this time and I will upload my picture as an avatar in hopes of adding "face" to my posts. Thank you for your inquiry but understand that Indians may not be the only people desirous of Vedic life and as Dvija it hurts to be cast as less by hypocrites and non practicing Brahmins.

Thank You,
Roman James Hunt from Nashville, Tennessee (originally) now Boston and soon to be named Shankar.....

Namaste Renuka and may ganesh bless you with the easiest of obstacles in your life.
 
Dear Renuka,

Yes you are incorrect. I am absolutely American. Born in the US and raised in the US. I am against discrimination within the orthodoxy because I desire to be orthodox and represent Hinduism (via the Hindu Students Association and Hindu American Foundation). I purport that the history of Hinduism is misunderstood yet after coming here for simple advice I am seeing truth in the traditional American condemnations of the religion. It's OK you look at my arguments and think I am Indian. If you heard me chant Sri Rudraprashnaha you'd assume I was Tamil too. The swaras are like that. Done right and all praise of god is ambiguous. I will pass on taking offence to this inquiry this time and I will upload my picture as an avatar in hopes of adding "face" to my posts. Thank you for your inquiry but understand that Indians may not be the only people desirous of Vedic life and as Dvija it hurts to be cast as less by hypocrites and non practicing Brahmins.

Thank You,
Roman James Hunt from Nashville, Tennessee (originally) now Boston and soon to be named Shankar.....

Namaste Renuka and may ganesh bless you with the easiest of obstacles in your life.


Dear Sir,

Thank you for reply and I humbly apologize to you for having written that post.
God bless you always.
 
No worries!!!! New avatar uploaded! Love and peace to you and your family for all time! I love your contributions here Mrs. Renuka. :-D
 
Dear Boston,

Forgive me if I am wrong and humble pranams to you again if I am wrong but your style of writing seems very very Indian to me.

Most of the while its Indians who are very concern about the so called discrimination practices of certain Veda Pathashalas.

Most Non Indian who have embarced Sanathana Dharma focus on drinking the essence of religion/god ...its always Indians who are more concern about the who gets to mix the ingredients of the essence and the secret recipe held by Brahmins etc.


But anyway most important focus on God.

After all its Chidananda Roopah Shivoham Shivoham finally.

Once again forgive me if I am wrong by writing this post and I dont mind even if you get angry with me but you seem like an understanding person so please dont take this post too personally.

regards,
renu

Also... my work is in Chemistry and Physics so I am highly interested in the vibrational and energetic nature of chanting vedas as a pathway to realization of Aatman. Maybe that's another reason Bhakti Yoga and Seva are not my primary focus.... I live a life of deep introspection into both the physical and spiritual world and focus on how they meet. . . Devotion is pure and beautiful but I am intrigued by the power of the Nitya Karmas.
 
Also... my work is in Chemistry and Physics so I am highly interested in the vibrational and energetic nature of chanting vedas as a pathway to realization of Aatman. Maybe that's another reason Bhakti Yoga and Seva are not my primary focus.... I live a life of deep introspection into both the physical and spiritual world and focus on how they meet. . . Devotion is pure and beautiful but I am intrigued by the power of the Nitya Karmas.

I think you may find this interesting:

Freemasons – Masonic Lodge – membership and rules

Masonic membership requires that prospective members meet the qualifications and standards of character and reputation, and who believe in a Supreme Being.

To become a member, a man (notice that I used the word ‘man’, and not the word ‘one’ – see below ) must first request a petition and be recommended by two members of a local Masonic lodge and file a petition through that lodge. After submitting the petition, the applicant then meets with a committee to discuss Freemasonry and learn more about the organization. If the interview is favourable, the petition is presented to the lodge for a vote. If the vote is affirmative, the individual receives the Entered Apprentice degree - the first degree of Freemasonry. Once a man has completed the next two degrees, he is a Master Mason and a full member of the fraternity.

The fraternity is administratively organised into independent Grand Lodges, each of which governs its own jurisdiction, which consists of subordinate (or constituent) Lodges. The various Grand Lodges recognize each other, based upon adherence to "landmarks" . Masonic Landmarks are a set of principles that many Freemasons claim to be "both ancient and unchangeable precepts of Masonry".

A Grand Lodge will usually deem other Grand Lodges who share common landmarks as “regular”, and those that do not, as "irregular" or "clandestine"). Each Grand Lodge is self-governing, with no single body exercising authority over the others, and the interpretations of these principles can and do vary, leading to controversies.

The Masonic Landmark has biblical origins. The Book of Proverbs 22:28 says: "Remove not the ancient landmark which thy fathers have set". There is also a Jewish law: "Thou shalt not remove thy neighbors' landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance" to emphasize how these Landmarks designate inheritance.

According to the General Regulations…, "Every Lodge has an inherent power and Authority to make new Regulations or to alter these, for the .. benefits of this Ancient Fraternity; provided always that the old Land-Marks be carefully preserved."
Three requisite characteristics laid down in the regulations were:

1. Notional immemorial antiquity
2. Universality
3. Absolute "irrevocability"

Since the adoption of constitution in 1723, ... only men can be made Masons. Most Masonic Lodges do not admit women because they believe it would violate the ancient Landmarks.

Occasionally a few women … initiated, ....(but) officially, “regular” Freemasonry remains exclusive to men. In USA mainly... a few female orders are found. These have their own rituals and traditions, but are founded on the original (male) Masonic model.

There are some non-mainstream Masonic bodies that do admit both men and women, but ...(are) held to be “irregular” because ..(they) admit women. In recent times, elsewhere in the world, women have created and maintained separate Lodges, working the same rituals as the all-male 'regular' lodges.

Freemasonry
 
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This is an extension of my post above #21.

Long time ago, when I was a member of the Rotary Club, I also wanted to become a member of the Masonic club. I learned all about it, and breathed its mottos and what not, with my colleagues in the club, some of whom were Masons themselves.Then I told them that I wanted to be admitted to the club, and requested them to invite me. They said they will talk to the other members of the fraternity. But subsequently, they never talked about the subject to me. Whenever I tried to remind them, they said that my request was being considered. But this dragged on for months. One day, I cornered one of the friends closest to me and asked him what was going on. After some initial hesitation, and after much hemming and hawing, he said that " you wouldn't want to be a member here if I told you all the reasons for the delaying tactics" and told me to "move on".
 
I accept that completely but I also believe that the current Brahminical trends are relics of the last 1000 years and are in disagreement with the multiple yugas that the Vedas have endured. This kali Yuga and its bigotry will never stand for me. I am a child of Ved Vyasa and insist upon my birthrights. Deny me if thou wilt however know my atom exist within Shiva and every electron within me is driven by Shakti. To deny me as Pariah only fuels my desire to take my thread more. I shall bear this prejudice so that my sons will never have to. May any shortsighted Brahmin by genetics act as they will but let them all know that this participation in the ignorance of kali Yuga only reinforces the Shastras in how they say that even the righteous will participate in its ignorance. To deny me is to deny my Aatman. To deny me is to deny ALL AATMAN. God is you. God is me. Claim your genetic rights but when cancer strikes please take my medicines. I toil and design them inteligently for all. Even the bigoted and uneducated who deny Upanishads in the name of unremarkable verses.

IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH?
 
Dear Boston,

I have a question for you..once again not to offend you but just a query.
Why did you leave Christianity?Didnt you feel you can realize God even thru Christianity?
After all its Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti isnt it?

Feel free to answer my question, I would really love to hear you out.

regards
renu
 
Dear Renuka,

"Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti"

Sat cannot exist in a culture of ignorance. I left because it disagrees with all reality and science. We say the paths to god are many and that is a beautiful statement but never convince yourself that fallacy is equivalent to truth just because of the mere fact that many people follow it. Truths are many yet so are lies. We may all claim universality but that which patently contradict Vedas ARE NOT Sat. They are Asat. The reality they lead to is Achit.

My Lord Nataraj dances on the back of amnesia and ignorance. I shall not condemn anyone but I will never lie and tell them they are correct. Such ambiguous approaches dilute Sanatana Dharma. The Dharma is different and therefore separate from our eternal way.
 
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