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when nations and communities apologize for crimes committed in their name/behalf

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Nara

Well-known member
...The british are responsible for the caste problem.
Ah, if only the Brits never came to India it would have been the Shangri La, a sort of heaven on earth, just not for the Dalits.

This is what is so pernicious about the Varna/jati system -- we have one group who argues this is the best system humans have ever designed, no no, even given to them by the supreme power, and there is the other group who concedes it is a bad system after all, but it is not my problem, all the other castes are the ones who must go first.

Yes, a whole lot of castes participated in this oppressive system, now, among all the rats running around, who is going to go first and bell the cat? Passing the buck is always easy.

Cheers!
 
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Yamaka

New member
barring nara, the responses is along the lines of status quo, maintaining impasse between groups, cultures, nations, civilizations.

no one has come up with solutions. to break barriers, build trust and above all, bring folks together.

what we do in our home? there is always fights and quarrels in any average home. then someone, not always the underdog, comes down in stance, and breaks the freeze. one sorry or apology, is all that it takes to break the anger, soften the mood, and introduce a sense of accommodation.

the world today is too complex for us or anyone else for that matter, to isolate themselves. solitudes may be good for yogis and rishis,
of ancient times, but not for societies of today, when quick communication through internet, bypassing all rules and regulations, makes many of our quarrels look absurd or childish.

i am quite sure, each one of us, in our lifetime, can bring out instances, where there is an official state of aggression, or enmity, undercut by someone else in each other groups making contact and friends. how many of us know, adults quarelling, and the children playing together.

this is not a question of BB or NBB or WBB or HBB. it is a question of breaking walls, of silence, anger, suspicion and ensuring that we leave behind a world, community, better than what we inherited. even for those who find no fault with our inheritance, i think, there is always room for improvement, for everyone has to agree, that it is but an imperfect world, that we live.

something for everyone to think, and come up with solutions. that is a challenge for everyone here bar nara, 'ok dont believe in apology. come up with some other strategy to open up trust and confidence, and win over someone with whom you have grudge'.

let us all remember that all humans have inherited memories - memories particularly of wrong done against us, appear to flourish in every group. so warped the minds become with these aggrievements, that ultimately, it comes to a matter of not living together, but destroying one another. which in this world with so many new technologies, is easier done before thinking through the consequences.

jai peace!


I wrote, "..... but if the Govt in the Southern States want to pass Words of Appreciation for the African Americans for their Sacrifice to their States, it's fine with me." (post 2)

Whether most Texans agree with this, I seriously doubt!

Apology for AA may not be appropriate for the reasons I wrote in my post above.

Cheers.

:)
 
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KRS

Well-known member
Dear Professor,

I understand your import. But the problem with apologies is this: I can not apologize for my forefathers. If I can sincerely, I would.

I do not discriminate. So, I am supposed to apologize to my peers whose forefathers were wronged? Even if I do, their acceptance of it would be meaningless, as they are not the wronged party.

In my opinion, these recommended actions of apologies are nothing but based on wiping out the guilt feelings some may have about their ancestry. As far as I am concerned, my dharma towards the down trodden is to help them achieve dignity within my capacity (if they need it). This includes ALL down trodden.

Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS, if generational apologies do nothing but aggravate the divisions, then it seems to me the apology is still timely. An apology at a time when divisions are still present and would aggravate such divisions, can't be but timely.

You may still feel it is not required for other reasons, that is fine.

Cheers!
 

sarang

Well-known member
Who are the rats and who is the cat? You cannot destroy brahmins and brahmin thoughts however hard you try and however angry and wild you shout.

Brahmins were and are a docile community in the past and even now. They mind their own business. Having a separate dining hall or special privileges in temple pujas does not make them perpetrator of crimes against anybody including dalits.

Some petty thieves were declared as kallars, their other forms of livlihood twarted and segregated; even today the police flock to ramjinagar or navalpet areas of trichy, if there is an intelligent theft of valuables in any part of tamilnadu or neighbouring states. Even tv serials show this.

Ah, if only the Brits never came to India it would have been the Shangri La, a sort of heaven on earth, just not for the Dalits.

This is what is so pernicious about the Varna/jati system -- we have one group who argues this is the best system humans have ever designed, no no, even given to them by the supreme power, and there is the other group who concedes it is a bad system after all, but it is not my problem, all the other castes are the ones who must go first.

Yes, a whole lot of castes participated in this oppressive system, now, among all the rats running around, who is going to go first and bell the cat? Passing the buck is always easy.

Cheers!
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sri.Sangom, Greetings.

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Any such representation is required from all the castes. Caste discrimination has a pyramid effect. It is not possible for one single community to tender apology across the board. Instead of targetting and blaming one single community, the effort should be from all communities for a decent social reform. Targetting brahmin communities and blaming brahmin community alone will not pave the way to a social reform. Such reforms should be across all communities, properly represented by every community.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

If we consider the pyramidal structure of the hindu society - both ancient and modern - I think every tier or layer has reasons to apologize to all the other tiers or layers beneath theirs, because the dynamics of the hindu social structure itself depended on each tier pushing down (or at least keeping all of them suppressed) those below them in the specified order and each tier, simulataneously trying to upgrade itself to be considered on par with the higher levels. And we have literally thousands and thousands of such fine layers!

In the above circumstances, is it not a good idea for us to consider the Government of India's /Constitution's decision to abolish all inequalities based on caste and further, to take steps for 'positive discrimination' in favour of the downtrodden sections, as sufficient in place of the "apology" which does not look practicable, any way?
 

sarang

Well-known member
I agree sir. The constitution has already flattened the caste system, has acknowledged the caste system and has made provisions for special concessions (originally only for 50 years or roughly three generations) for the deprived communities. Anyway, original intent of varna system is in shambles, but the cast system is virile and thriving. Only when the caste system is banished from public power related activities - election and politics - and allowed to flourish as a private activity to preserve the caste's culture and tradition, we can come out of this debate. The constitution guarantees equality of castes and religion, but the government is creating more divisions by reservation in resource sharing and representation beyond what was envisaged by our constitution makers.

Once everybody realises that the problems can be solved only by addressing the issues in the correct perspective and not blaming rats or any other animals. Once caste is kept out of politics and power struggle, the problem of caste discrimination will vanish. Of course, there will still be local problems like in paramakkudi, which are to be solved at the local level.

Dear Raghy,

If we consider the pyramidal structure of the hindu society - both ancient and modern - I think every tier or layer has reasons to apologize to all the other tiers or layers beneath theirs, because the dynamics of the hindu social structure itself depended on each tier pushing down (or at least keeping all of them suppressed) those below them in the specified order and each tier, simulataneously trying to upgrade itself to be considered on par with the higher levels. And we have literally thousands and thousands of such fine layers!

In the above circumstances, is it not a good idea for us to consider the Government of India's /Constitution's decision to abolish all inequalities based on caste and further, to take steps for 'positive discrimination' in favour of the downtrodden sections, as sufficient in place of the "apology" which does not look practicable, any way?
 

ozone

Active member
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

But these present day brahmins very zealously stick to the customs and conventions observed by their forefathers and feel very proud about it too. The things they have omitted to adhere to are eithet banned/prohibited by the laws of the present government or, they themselves find it useless or inconvenient to adhere to because of their pre-occupation with earning more and more wealth in their lives and lead a comfortable, materialistic life. Yet, they do not have the humility or broad-mindedness to tender an apology.
Would it be OK for me to seek some explanations for better understanding? What customs and conventions you refer to here you think continue to show atrocities?
That said, who is the representative body to make that apology?
and who should be the representative body to receive the apology?

thanks
 
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prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Raghy,

If we consider the pyramidal structure of the hindu society - both ancient and modern - I think every tier or layer has reasons to apologize to all the other tiers or layers beneath theirs, because the dynamics of the hindu social structure itself depended on each tier pushing down (or at least keeping all of them suppressed) those below them in the specified order and each tier, simulataneously trying to upgrade itself to be considered on par with the higher levels. And we have literally thousands and thousands of such fine layers!

In the above circumstances, is it not a good idea for us to consider the Government of India's /Constitution's decision to abolish all inequalities based on caste and further, to take steps for 'positive discrimination' in favour of the downtrodden sections, as sufficient in place of the "apology" which does not look practicable, any way?

Caste system should be abolished. It was the intent of the Indian Constitution. The Brahmins in general (definitely in TN) are powerless and have given up any perceived superiority they ever had. It is the NB that will not give up the advantage they have achieved in the name of caste.
I bet these people who are clamoring for apology, are laughing at the discomfort to the few brahmins in this site. I also bet that these same people will not give up their position to some one less fortunate in their own community or say a poor brahmin.
 

ShivKC

Active member
Dear Professor,

I understand your import. But the problem with apologies is this: I can not apologize for my forefathers. If I can sincerely, I would.

I do not discriminate. So, I am supposed to apologize to my peers whose forefathers were wronged? Even if I do, their acceptance of it would be meaningless, as they are not the wronged party.

In my opinion, these recommended actions of apologies are nothing but based on wiping out the guilt feelings some may have about their ancestry. As far as I am concerned, my dharma towards the down trodden is to help them achieve dignity within my capacity (if they need it). This includes ALL down trodden.

Thanks.

Regards,
KRS


just curious!

why the law of our modern land, makes the son liable for his fathers debt?

after all, what talked here is all about an intangible thing, may be a simple lip service..
 

sangom

Well-known member
Caste system should be abolished. It was the intent of the Indian Constitution. The Brahmins in general (definitely in TN) are powerless and have given up any perceived superiority they ever had. It is the NB that will not give up the advantage they have achieved in the name of caste.
I bet these people who are clamoring for apology, are laughing at the discomfort to the few brahmins in this site. I also bet that these same people will not give up their position to some one less fortunate in their own community or say a poor brahmin.

Dear Shri Prasad,

I sincerely feel, even though I am a born brahmin and stand to lose because of the job reservation system (none of my sons could secure a decent enough job in India and had to go abroad), that, without the reservations, the downtrodden sections would not have obtained even what they have been able to secure since Independence. This is because we higher castes have the ability to make maximum benefit for our community people if only the power is vested with us. I can give number of examples but I won't because it will be exposing many long-dead tabras who perhaps did all those "benefits" to other brahmins because they felt it was a 'satkarma' or goog deed. I may give one jocular but true example: in the 1960's there was a department known as "Department of Research & Statistics" which was known as "Department of Raos and Sarmas";) and that would have been found true if anybody went through the staff-list. Hence I do not find fault with reservations.

I also am in favour of apology, if it will be feasible but my intention is not at all to cause any discomfort to anyone. And when you write "discomfort to the few brahmins in this site" (emphasis mine), I do not know what exactly your intention is!
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Shri Prasad,

I sincerely feel, even though I am a born brahmin and stand to lose because of the job reservation system (none of my sons could secure a decent enough job in India and had to go abroad), that, without the reservations, the downtrodden sections would not have obtained even what they have been able to secure since Independence. This is because we higher castes have the ability to make maximum benefit for our community people if only the power is vested with us. I can give number of examples but I won't because it will be exposing many long-dead tabras who perhaps did all those "benefits" to other brahmins because they felt it was a 'satkarma' or goog deed. I may give one jocular but true example: in the 1960's there was a department known as "Department of Research & Statistics" which was known as "Department of Raos and Sarmas";) and that would have been found true if anybody went through the staff-list. Hence I do not find fault with reservations.

I also am in favour of apology, if it will be feasible but my intention is not at all to cause any discomfort to anyone. And when you write "discomfort to the few brahmins in this site" (emphasis mine), I do not know what exactly your intention is!

Nepotism is not exclusive to brahmins, Not all rao's are brahmins.

I am not against giving some preferential treatment to the disadvantaged, for a limited time the framers of the constitution had in mind. The people to be given preferential treatment should not be birth based it should be means based.

I bet these people who are clamoring for apology, are laughing at the discomfort to the few brahmins in this site. I also bet that these same people will not give up their position to some one less fortunate in their own community or say a poor brahmin.

That paragraph was not for brahmins (including you). But again if you think it was for you I can not help it. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
OP
K

kunjuppu

Well-known member
the contnuing saga of poonam and the dalits is in today's globe and mail. this issue explains the odds against the dalits and the dalit girls in particular.

i think it is easy for all of us, sitting in the comforts of our home, to complain against quotas and reservations, and wonder why it is after 60 years of independence there are still large tracts of dalit serfdom.

the answer is in the behaviour of the upper castes, and i agree, tambrams, may once have been part of this crowd, and not today. but in all honesty, we who get riled and upset, and muslim invasions and desecration of our temples, the british invasion, and the utlimate erosion of our values, and many of us, who would not even acknowledge one iota of benefit done to india by the british..... can we look at ourselves in the mirror, and refuse to see history, our own history, under the cloak of religion, created an environment for what i would call, 'crimes against humanity'.

would any one of like trade places with the dalits? we conveniently explain the accident of birth to karma. see, this is what i say, cruelty sanctioned, by religion, for the select few, one strata stepping on top of the other, and everyone sh***ing on the dalits.

/breaking-caste/you-can-unlock-the-potential-of-indias-most-oppressed-girls-but-where-are-they-going-to-use-it

i can almost see the refusal of many to understand the odds and barricades put up against the dalits. to claim that we are not responsible, yet call ourselves hindus, is inappropriate. the brahmin or the priestly class, is not looked at with favour, in any culture. we can cast aside our behaviour towards priesthood of today. but our parents and grandparents and ancestors did not. whether we acknowledge selectively our ancestors, casting aside the unsavouries, and picking only what suits us - is this fair? or the sign of an honest introspection?

in today's globe, here is another instance, of one nation, apologizing to another - for crimes committed by the ancestors - not distant but recent.

six-decades-later-dutch-apologize-for-indonesian-massacre/
 

B.Krishnamurthy

Active member
The comments of 44 individuals which is available with the report in a Canadian Newspaper about a particular group of people from Uttar pradesh is quite revealing. The intention of the author for publishing such articles appears to be to get charity from Canada.
 
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Raghy

Well-known member
Dear Sri.Sangom, Greetings.

If we consider the pyramidal structure of the hindu society - both ancient and modern - I think every tier or layer has reasons to apologize to all the other tiers or layers beneath theirs, because the dynamics of the hindu social structure itself depended on each tier pushing down (or at least keeping all of them suppressed) those below them in the specified order and each tier, simulataneously trying to upgrade itself to be considered on par with the higher levels. And we have literally thousands and thousands of such fine layers!

That is exactly right. The caste system has a pyramid structure. It can not be eradicated by blaming just one caste or community. Even when (not if) all the brahmins get eradicated in the near future in Tamil Nadu, still there will be casteism, still there will be untouchability, still there will be caste based aggressions and voilences. I am looking at this caste as issue as an outsider, not as a brahmin. All I see is a pyramid structure. Even if one portion of the pyramid gets destroyed, still the structure with all it's undesirable qualities will remain. It is essential to open up the pyramid and make it a two dimentional structure, so that we can reach all across the population. Anything else will not succeed.

In the above circumstances, is it not a good idea for us to consider the [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]Government[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] of India's /Constitution's decision to abolish all inequalities based on caste and further, to take steps for 'positive discrimination' in favour of the downtrodden sections, as sufficient in place of the "apology" which does not look practicable, any way?

In my opinion, that system is not the answer. The positive discrimination method was tried for over 60 years. It has not worked. Still the casteism remains; still the caste based oppression & discriminations continues. All it achieved was discriminating one community of persons. that's all. A person from BC and MBC still continues to practice discriminations against few sets of persons and at the same time gets rewarded in the reservation system! I can't believe educated persons can't see the defects in such a system. I admit, it is quite difficult to notice a huge white elephant standing in the middle of the lounge. You may argue about the improvements in the small percentage of persons from SC & ST communities; but such developments could have been achieved without this barbaric reservation system. I am not trying to 'save' brahmin community here; I don't even wear my poonool ( I was wearing it with reverence at one time; but removed it for pure personal reasons); I know, the brahmin community in Tamil Nadu will become extinct in the future but the caste based discriminations will remain.

The Government's constituion is a joke. On the one hand she wants the casteism and caste based discrimination's destroyed; on the other hand she bends over backwards to reward through reservations, persons who continue to practice caste based discriminations. When there is reward in place, why would anyone give up their caste status? The whole reservation scheme is retarded, has not worked to remove casteism or caste based discriminations in the past 60 plus years! Good luck to you guys for clinging on such a system seeking a miracle!

India is not a poor country anymore. There are many social systems that work equitably. Nobody can convince me otherwise. Presently I am paid to study and implement such equitable systems to help persons with ciriminal background and with mental illness. But I don't see Indian politicians going for such equitable systems.

(By the way, I noticed the 'statement of Apology' mentioned by Sri.Krishnamurthy in post #33).

Cheers!
 
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KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri ShivKC,

I don't know about India, but in the US, a father's debt is not automatically passed down to the children. The entity that loaned the money to a person can only strive to collect it from the estate of the deceased , not from the children.

Regards,
KRS
just curious!

why the law of our modern land, makes the son liable for his fathers debt?

after all, what talked here is all about an intangible thing, may be a simple lip service..
 
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Raghy

Well-known member
Dear Sri.Kunjuppu, Greetings.

i think it is easy for all of us, sitting in the comforts of our home, to complain against quotas and reservations, and wonder why it is after 60 years of independence there are still large tracts of dalit serfdom.

The answer is simple. The system of quotas and resrvations have not worked to eradicate casteism and caste based discriminations. The whole reservation and quota system is a knee jerk reaction. A time will come, Indians will be ashamed of this reservation system as they are ashamed of the caste system. No matter how ever you try to polish it, resrvation system punishes one community of persons for the alleged deeds of a portion of their forefathers. That is the truth; that's what is seen by an outsider. Such system is a barbaric system.

the answer is in the behaviour of the upper castes, and i agree, tambrams, may once have been part of this crowd, and not today. but in all honesty, we who get riled and upset, and muslim invasions and desecration of our temples, the british invasion, and the utlimate erosion of our values, and many of us, who would not even acknowledge one iota of benefit done to india by the british..... can we look at ourselves in the mirror, and refuse to see history, our own history, under the cloak of religion, created an environment for what i would call, 'crimes against humanity'.

That is because, the pyramid system of caste system is not properly identified in India. Everybody all and sundry held one community responsible for all the ills of the caste systems; as any kangaroo court would do, they all collectively punished that community while denying their own disciminating deeds. To look at ourselves, to look at our misgivings, to accept & Acknowledge our misgivings, we have to be honest. What honesty are you expecting from communities who practice caste based discriminations and also accept rewards in the resrvation system? Brahmin community is being punished, buddy! Since they are accepting the punishments, even sometimes with protest, one should not have reason to keep on harping on that community. This is the reality check, please.

Cheers!
 

Yamaka

New member
Dear Sri ShivKC,

I don't know about India, but in the US, a father's debt is not automatically passed down to the children. The entity that loaned the money to a person can only strive to collect it from the estate of the deceased , not from the children.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS:

I guess what Shiv means is someone is held responsible for what the deceased did or responsible for!

Even in the US, most of the Estates is in the hands of the children, with some exceptions, I believe.

In this current debate, I am thinking more of the PROCESS like "How could one go about Apologizing: Which Authority should apologize to which Authority to receive it?

In an Indian context, is this feasible or desirable or doable at all?

Coming from a small rural village, our taluk was designated as the Most Backward Area in entire Ramnad District. We are all considered to be the Victims of the System.

Am I asking for apology from anybody? NO.

Was I openly discriminated by anybody in School, College or University ? No, not that I can logically say.

Did I get Govt help anytime? Yes, I was informed by the Madura College (1967-71) that they received large sums of money to subsidize my Hostel Food Bill from the State. Did I sign any paper for it? Yes in the Hostel.

Cheers.

:)
 

ShivKC

Active member
Dear Sri ShivKC,

I don't know about India, but in the US, a father's debt is not automatically passed down to the children. The entity that loaned the money to a person can only strive to collect it from the estate of the deceased , not from the children.

Regards,
KRS

Ji,

since this is an indian social issue, and so i have referred indian hindu undivided family inheritance law, which was framed mainly based on the hindu philosophy 'pious obligation'.

unlike u.s law of inheritance of ancestral properties, as per indian law, by default the assets goes to the children, so are the debts. for eg, the said father must have inherited estate from his great great grandfathers, but borrowed money and died without paying. the 10th generation ancestral property will come to the son automatically, and also his debts.

you know,our custom/culture/philosophy/hindu inheritance laws emphasize,that every one to take the responsibility of the good or bad done by the ancestors.if its an inheritance of assets, get cherished, and if its debt repay it (or) apologize to seek waiver. that's the foundation of the hindu philosophy of 'pious obligation'.

if one takes proud in ancestors,glorifies him in all the rituals, then by any logic,and with the same yard stick, one should accept the mistake of the same. or else, one should have been adopting the policy, he is 'dead and gone'.

i'm not here to debate which community to apologize whom! all i know is, tendering an apology is always good and beneficial to both the persons. this is what i have explained in one of the previous post

however in one of your response, you expressed your apprehension that, tendering an apology may develop hatred or adverse effects. would be nice, if you could quote some incidences from history, that, tendering an apology had turned out to be a wrong move.
 
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