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Viswam and Vishnu

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Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
The previous posting on "AUM and Science" from the book on the", Glory of Vishnusahasranamam and some Scientific facts" attracted valuable contributions from the readers. I am now opening a new thread on "Viswam and Vishnu", covering pages 25 to 44 of the book (paras4.3 to 5.2.10).
These pages cover briefly the first three slokas of Vishnu sahasranamam.
The first 8 words of the first sloka are known as Astakshari,; together with the next 8,they point to the 16 Riks of Purushasuktam;along with the next eight, the 24 words represent the Gayatri mantra and the 32 words of the first sloka represent the Narasimha mantra, according to Late Mukkur Lakshmi Narasimhachariar.
In Para 4.2, p24, I have listed the 8 scriptural reasons as to why this sahasranama is called Vishnusahasranamam and not by any of the other 999 names.
In pages 25 to 29, I have listed the names of some of the ancient Rationalists and their contribution to science through various schools of thought like Samkhyam,Vaiseshikam,Nyaya, cause and effect study etc.
I have also tried to explain Viswam," larger than the largest" and Vishnu," smaller than the smallest",supported by modern scientific evidences, including the three famous theories of Einstein and the concept of subatomic particles to explain Vishnu.
I have laid special emphasis on the significance of some of the namas like AVYAYAH (Para4.6), KSHETRGNA and AKSHARA (Para4.7)and tried to link up the pioneering work of some of the ancient scientists of India, which has lead to the development of modern concepts on these aspects.
Vedic Mathematics has developed larger than an ocean, of late. Nonetheless, I have tried to explain the great attributes of Mathematics, Zero, Infinity and Vishnu as explained by some of the namas in Vishnu sahasranamam, in para4.8 (P38)
After explaining a few other namas as well, I have tried to deal with the Scientific significance that

*Aminoacids are the building blocks of Protein.

*DNA and Protein are the KSHETRA and KSHETRGNA or PURUSHA and PRAKRITI.

*Conversion of manomer to polymer is alone not enough for creation of LIFE and this awareness is REALITY.

*Which organisms came first, Protozoan or bacteria? Until the blue green algae started photosynthesis and started emitting free oxygen, life on earth was largely anaerobic. Evolution over a long period was required to convert the initial toxic waste of oxygen to a life sustaining gas for all lives. If one toxic gas could be converted by evolution to a life saving mechanism, what prevents further evolution to adapt to CO2 or methane and become even a better breed? Why then all this brouhahas by Pachuris and Al Gores?

*Use of genetic codes by organisms.

*Life is still in the realm of the unknown and "Watching the world is really an illusion"

The question that I pose before the Peer group is " Do you agree with some, a majority of or all the observations made above or would you rubbish it out as "Hocus Pocus and a Mumbo Jumbo"?
Respects and Regards,
Ramanathan.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr Ramanathan,
Regarding DNA I have always thought of it a mysterious genetic code of creation for lifes in this world.
There must have been a first genetic code which lead to development of life(we have to think of genetic mutation here and also adaptation for survival of the fittest)
I did think long back that there must have been a genetic code which Purusha had placed in Prakrithi to intiate creation.
This we are saying at a large scale level.
At a small scale level that is the process of reproduction the man(purusha) places genetic material into female(prakirthi) during the act of coitus and a new life is produced.
But here both the male and female have contributed DNA(genetic material).
The question is during creation did Prakirthi also contribute genetic material(Genetic Code) or was merely a receipient of Genetic matter from Purusha and was just playing a resevoir for life to develop?

You see life can be produced by cloning and also partogenesis(in certain species of bees) only need DNA from a donor and a uterus to hold it till full maturity.
Here the uterus just plays provider of shelter and does not contribute genetic material.

So which way could it have been?
Purusha active donor.Prakrithi passive receipent or both contributing genetic material for creation.
But so far from what i have read it says more about Purusha placing "Seed" into Hiranyagarbha.
"Seed" of Hiranyagarbha not mentioned at all.
Kindly respond Dr Ramanthan Sir.


disclaimer: this post of mine is purely from the metaphysical point of view and might stand totally unproven in the court of science.
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr Ramanthan Ji,
Doesnt the word Vishnu mean All Pervading?
Can it really mean the smallest than the smallest? when it pervades from the smallest to the largest.

yasmad vishtam idam sarvam tasya shaktya mahatmanah tasmad evo'cyate Vishnur visher datoh praveshanat

The power of That Supreme Being has entered within the universe.
the root Vis means "enter into"


Life is still very much in the realm of the unknown.There is so much that is beyond the comprehension of the Human mind.
World might appear as an illusion owing to its transientness.
 
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arunshanker

Active member
*Which organisms came first, Protozoan or bacteria? Until the blue green algae started photosynthesis and started emitting free oxygen, life on earth was largely anaerobic. Evolution over a long period was required to convert the initial toxic waste of oxygen to a life sustaining gas for all lives. If one toxic gas could be converted by evolution to a life saving mechanism, what prevents further evolution to adapt to CO2 or methane and become even a better breed? Why then all this brouhahas by Pachuris and Al Gores?
This allegation on Pachuris and Al Gores (A collective expression is used here by which I infer that you mean all the people like them) is very serious stuff especially the word you have used to describe them "brouhahas" which translates into "uproar,a loud confused noise; commotion;".
Actually life started off on Earth about 4 billion years ago, the first types of cells to evolve were prokaryotic cells. I am not going in to “Abiogenesis” here since your started at the point Protozoan or bacteria? I think we need not go into Miller experiment. The first known living entity (please note that the word entity and not organism) was about 4 billion years ago, the first types of cells to evolve were prokaryotic cells, for 2 billion years this was the only life on earth!
That is a long time and one more thing is every major step in evolution was in the scale of millions of years (please note)
You said “Until the blue green algae started photosynthesis and started emitting free oxygen”
Note here that
photosynthesis developed in bacteria about 3.2 billion years ago. The primary type of photosynthesis to emerge is called anoxygenic photosynthesis because it does not produce O2. Anoxygenic photosynthesis predated oxygenic photosynthesis by half a billion years. Oxygenic photosynthesis also arose in procaryotes, in cyanobacteria (the ones which you call blue green algae), and existed for millions of years before the evolution of plants.
Free oxygen first was seen in noteworthy quantities during the Paleoproterozoic era- between 2.5 and 1.6 billion years ago. Now note that the occurrence of huge quantity of dissolved and free oxygen in the oceans and atmosphere may have driven most of the anaerobic organisms then living to extinction during the oxygen catastrophe about 2.4 billion years ago (on the other hand one should note that even now there are obligate anaerobes which are anoxygenic phototrophs).
In very simple terms : It took one billion years—called jokingly as the "the boring billion" by atmospheric scientists—for oxygen levels to rise high enough to enable the evolution of animals!! Are we willing to wait that long to use GHGs to our advantage???
So goes without saying that like you said “If one toxic gas could be converted by evolution to a life saving mechanism” is not the correct way to put it, (firstly “converted by evolution” – Evolution does not convert anything from toxic to nontoxic- Toxicity is an interactive property – what is toxic to one species may not toxic to another in fact may be beneficial) actually the organism converts itself in fact it is the organisms that changed itself in complex ways to use what is available abundantly to suit perpetuation (note that this too did not happen over night it took eons for this to happen [you have yourself used “a long Period”] ) and in the process the several entities went extinct. Now, Human and many other forms of complex life at present are having a high degree of complexity in their metabolism and to change its metabolic process to use what is toxic now to its advantage would take a very long time (like you have said) and in process would even go extinct (note) but then life would still prevail by using what is abundant and at the current rate of predicted evolutionary development that would not happen for several thousand (millions?) of years.
You said “what prevents further evolution to adapt to CO2 or methane and become even a better breed?” In fact I must say that nothing prevents that from happening (on the contrary the most important thing that may prevent it from happening is taking the Pachuris and Al Gores concerns as brouhaha!!) (the Pachuris and Al Gores brouhaha’s is in fact is asking us to help make that happen) but only thing is that in the process of that happening (over several thousand of years) complex metabolic entities would be extinct but still life itself in the form of organisms that use CO2 or methane to their advantage would still be around.
In r simple words we will adapt to CO2 and methane and other CC effects but it will be slow and gradual and these adaption to make an evolutionary mark will be even longer, much longer. You have used “evolution to adapt” in fact evolution does not help in adapting in fact it is other way round adaptation triggers evolution, (Only if adapt we will evolve )evolution is a change in the genetic material of a population of organisms through successive generations in a very slow process not discernible in our timescale on the other hand adaptation is in itself an evolutionary process whereby a population becomes better suited to its habitat it is very discernible in fact what the Pachuris and Al Gores are saying are that if you cannot mitigate (stop or reduce the release of Green House Gases [GHGs)) you better adapt to the present and possible future levels of GHGs.
So now we have to adapt and do so for many hundreds of years and if we successfully do that for several thousand years we may evolve. Please understand that the the Pachuris and Al Gores are raising immediate concerns of adaption! for example food security
To sustain hunger we have to adopt agricultural practices that can work well (adapt) even in the predicted scenario of GHGs and that is what is adaptation and in fact I am working on that myself and most importantly I am funded by tax payers money (your money) to work on that.
I want you and others interested to please have a look at how my coauthor and I propose strategies to adapt to changing scenario at the following links (they are my peer reviewed papers). I would appreciate if you don't dismiss it as brouhaha LOL
Please note that it is not only the GHGs that are of concern here, it is also other effects of CC like the extreme weather events, long and erratic rainless period,high temp, melting of ice and sea level rise are also of grave concern and let me tell they are not just MEDIA HYPE as many now feel fashionable believing in!
The Pachuris and al Gores are working for the public good with public money with a lot of conviction and integrity. Dr. Rajendra Kumar Pachauri Rajendra K. Pachauri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a respectable person and so is AL Gore Al Gore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They are not devoid of controversy and criticism but that does not warrant the word: brouhaha (a loud confused noise; commotion; uproar) to be attributed to their genuine concerns. Again this a public forum and prbly Dr. Ramanathan can say anything about anybody! I am just putting in my defense more so because I myself have been spending my night and day in climate change research for the public good.
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr RamathanJi,
I was just thinking about your question on DNA and Protein being the Purusha and Prakriti.

DNA deoxyribonucleic acid consists of 2 long polymers of simple units called nucleotides with backbone made of sugars and phosphate groups joined by ester bonds as the definition goes.

I dont think DNA is Purusha becos for DNA to have existed the process of Panchikarana(Grossification) should have taken place first.
(From the Tamas aspect of 5 great elements the grossified 5 elements are born.)
Therefore DNA could not have preceeded Panchikarana.
DNA was formed only after the process of Panchikarana.
To form anything in this world we first need grossfied 5 elements.
Panchikarana in turn could not have preceeded the Divine Will and the process of Purusha placing the "Seed" into Hiranyagarbha.

Therefore the "Seed" of the Purusha could be some form of Genetic Code for Creation which preceeds DNA which maybe we dont know yet.

At a smaller scale level DNA is genetic code(blue print) of life.
Large scale level "Seed of Purusha" is the genetic code(blue print) of creation.
Small scale is mimicking Large scale but may be we havent decoded the "Seed of Purusha" yet.

Disclaimer:this post of mine is purely from the metaphysical point of view and might stand totally unproven in the court of science.
 
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Nara

Well-known member
.....The Pachuris and al Gores are working for the public good with public money with a lot of conviction and integrity.

Dear Arun, You and your colleagues are doing good work. Thiruvalluvar says,

உழுதுண்டு வாழ்வாரேவாழ்வார், மற்றெல்லாம்
தொழுதுண்டு பின் செல்பவர்

You are part of the community that the rest of us must salute, for without you guys we may not have enough to eat.

... You have used “evolution to adapt” in fact evolution does not help in adapting in fact it is other way round adaptation triggers evolution, (Only if adapt we will evolve )evolution is a change in the genetic material of a population of organisms through successive generations in a very slow process not discernible in our timescale..
A small but important clarification may be needed here.

If our atmosphere becomes rich in GHG, it is very unlikely that any of the existing specious that have evolved to thrive in a "non-GHG" rich environment will survive, no more than the specious that died out for whom oxygen was toxic when the earth's atmosphere turned oxygen rich. Only the organisms for whom GHG is not toxic will survive and continue to evolve, much the same way small mammals survived after the dinosaurs went extinct.

Sudden changes (hundreds of years) in GHG will leave too little time for the specious that are presently dominant to evolve which happens over long time, millions of years. So, these specious will go extinct pretty quickly and it will take hundreds of million of years for the surviving specious to evolve into anything resembling the present day advanced human beings. So, the survival life as we know it on this earth depends upon taking Gore and Pachauri seriously.

Also, as you correctly point out, evolution happens at the genetic level. Random mutations of genes is the starting point. This is "random" not because they change for no reason, but because such changes happen due to many factors, and, without any premeditation in the anthropomorphic sense for future outcome. Of these random mutations, the rare ones that bestow a survival and reproductive advantage get passed on to the future generations in more abundance, and so goes evolution.

Cheers!
 

arunshanker

Active member
Dear Arun, You and your colleagues are doing good work. Thiruvalluvar says, You are part of the community that the rest of us must salute, for without you guys we may not have enough to eat.
I am flattered!! thanks anyway, just doing our 9-5 jobs and pbly throwing in a few hours in the night. What’s important is that I am enjoying it!

If our atmosphere becomes rich in GHG, it is very unlikely that any of the existing specious that have evolved to thrive in a "non-GHG" rich environment will survive, no more than the specious that died out for whom oxygen was toxic when the earth's atmosphere turned oxygen rich. Only the organisms for whom GHG is not toxic will survive and continue to evolve, much the same way small mammals survived after the dinosaurs went extinct.
In a way it is true but what I mean is that there will not be a sudden death but it will be a gradual process and slowly some species will change its genetic make up to counter GHGs
Theoretically there is a possibility that even within species there may be differences in tolerance to GHGs
But as is the case here it is Ozone problem and some populations forming a particular race of the humans would be at advantage especially the one who evolved and lived in the tropics.
But anyway everything is conjectural

Sudden changes (hundreds of years) in GHG will leave too little time for the specious that are presently dominant to evolve which happens over long time, millions of years. So, these specious will go extinct pretty quickly and it will take hundreds of million of years for the surviving specious to evolve into anything resembling the present day advanced human beings. So, the survival life as we know it on this earth depends upon taking Gore and Pachauri seriously.

You are right there that all the more the reason that the answer for Dr. Ramanathan’s Q “what prevents further evolution to adapt to CO2 or methane and become even a better breed?” Is no, in fact even if you listen to the CC scientists! but you know man is clever and prbly he will do something ingenious – Poof!!! all the GHGs are gone!! In future wishful thinking LOL



Also, as you correctly point out, evolution happens at the genetic level. Random mutations of genes is the starting point. This is "random" not because they change for no reason, but because such changes happen due to many factors, and, without any premeditation in the anthropomorphic sense for future outcome. Of these random mutations, the rare ones that bestow a survival and reproductive advantage get passed on to the future generations in more abundance, and so goes evolution. Cheers!
Yes again here there is always a possibility that there will transgenic humans engineered to counter GHGs and this hasten evolution multifold several magnitudes ahead.
The stage in science now is we are even in our lab successful brought about transgenic sorghum that can counter water stress. Possibly that could happen in humans too but not in the near future ( note there is a lot of misinformed clamor on GM food) what do you think will happen if there is possibility of GM humans – if the Science geeks tell you “ your life depends on this Genetic modification” prbly all these groups will shut up and take the gene in!
 

renuka

Well-known member
dear Dr RamanathanJi,

I have read this from God Talks with Arjuna(Bhagavad Gita) by Paramahansa Yogananda>
i thought this would help to understand How cosmos evolved.

"By the intelligent mixture of 5 cosmic elements acted upon by Prakriti and God, the universes are born.
Spirit and Cosmic Nature materialize intelligence, the various forms of creative intelligence materialize the 5 subtle cosmic elements(Mahatattvas) into--Prana--into--electrons--into --protons-- into atoms.
Cosmic Nature (Prakriti) of Triple Qualities first gives rise to intelligent vibratory ether, the subtle background on which all other vibrations interplay.
Ether gives rise to intelligent cosmic energy called Prana.
Prana in turn gives rise to cosmic radiations,electrons, protons and atoms.
from the combination of atoms---fluid, solids sprang"

Disclaimer:This is purely metaphysics.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Regarding DNA I have always thought of it a mysterious genetic code of creation for lifes in this world.
There must have been a first genetic code which lead to development of life(we have to think of genetic mutation here and also adaptation for survival of the fittest)

Hmm...the first genetic code? just abt those 20 amino acids are responsible for all proteins - they are codes for that which makes a being "alive"...All living beings share some genes or the other...The interplay of those amino acid codes, distribution of genetic codes in life forms, happened over eons in a process called evolution, and evolution does not stop.
Yes it might even be possible that humans may adapt to CO2 or methane some millions of years later. For that matter oxygen is actually poisonous for "life", but did not microbes adapt to oxygen, to enable "life' to exist...but if it happened with oxygen, we cannot say it will happen with carbon dioxide...the point is no one knows if it can happen...sufficient research has not been done in that direction so we dunno yet...

I did think long back that there must have been a genetic code which Purusha had placed in Prakrithi to intiate creation.
This we are saying at a large scale level.
At a small scale level that is the process of reproduction the man(purusha) places genetic material into female(prakirthi) during the act of coitus and a new life is produced.
But here both the male and female have contributed DNA(genetic material).
The question is during creation did Prakirthi also contribute genetic material(Genetic Code) or was merely a receipient of Genetic matter from Purusha and was just playing a resevoir for life to develop?
Am somewhat disappointed Renu that this comes from a doc. Ofcourse both the male and the female contribute genetic material towards creation of the offspring.

You see life can be produced by cloning and also partogenesis(in certain species of bees) only need DNA from a donor and a uterus to hold it till full maturity.
Here the uterus just plays provider of shelter and does not contribute genetic material.
Ofcourse cloning uses genetic material to create a new being. Instead of the ovum it uses somatic cells. Does that amount to the uterus or female contributing nothing? Why uterus - you can even grow stuff in vitro. In future, lets not be surprised if a new Dr.Renu (or a living being) can be cloned completely invitro.

So which way could it have been?
Purusha active donor.Prakrithi passive receipent or both contributing genetic material for creation.
But so far from what i have read it says more about Purusha placing "Seed" into Hiranyagarbha.
"Seed" of Hiranyagarbha not mentioned at all.
Kindly respond Dr Ramanthan Sir.
Purusha and Prakriti cannot survive without one another (Dr.Ramanathan sir, please correct me if this is wrong). Both play a role in creation. In embryogenesis too, both male and female contribute equally towards creation.

Reg the seed into hiranyagarbha, am not sure why one wud connect it with genetic material. But yes, am curious to see it there can be a connection.

Dr.Ramanathan sir, do forgive me for these inputs if they are considered out of place. But hope you take my inputs to renu also into consideration while replying. This topic is so interesting sir, thanks for starting it.

Dear Dr RamathanJi,
I was just thinking about your question on DNA and Protein being the Purusha and Prakriti.
DNA is responsible for creation of proteins. Wud you think that this is comparable to Purusha creating Prakrithi?

DNA deoxyribonucleic acid consists of 2 long polymers of simple units called nucleotides with backbone made of sugars and phosphate groups joined by ester bonds as the definition goes.

I dont think DNA is Purusha becos for DNA to have existed the process of Panchikarana(Grossification) should have taken place first.
(From the Tamas aspect of 5 great elements the grossified 5 elements are born.)
Therefore DNA could not have preceeded Panchikarana.
DNA was formed only after the process of Panchikarana.
To form anything in this world we first need grossfied 5 elements.
Panchikarana in turn could not have preceeded the Divine Will and the process of Purusha placing the "Seed" into Hiranyagarbha.

Therefore the "Seed" of the Purusha could be some form of Genetic Code for Creation which preceeds DNA which maybe we dont know yet.
Please explain in detail why you think a process of grossification shd have taken place first (before the "formation" of dna) ? And what does this process of grossification involve wrt to 'creation' of life?

At a smaller scale level DNA is genetic code(blue print) of life.
Large scale level "Seed of Purusha" is the genetic code(blue print) of creation.
Small scale is mimicking Large scale but may be we havent decoded the "Seed of Purusha" yet.

Disclaimer:this post of mine is purely from the metaphysical point of view and might stand totally unproven in the court of science.
Yes Renu, it does stand totally unconnected to science. Am not sure if connecting dna / protein to purusha / prakriti can be called metaphysics either.
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr RamanathanJi,

I would be very grateful if you could kindly comment on my post/input and correct me where i might have gone wrong and also please state if you agree or disagree with me on the points I had stated.
I must say your post has made me read a lot especially on creation of cosmos which is very well explained by Sathya Sai Baba and Paramahansa Yogananda.
Thank you once again Dearest Sir,
renu
 
OP
OP
D

Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
Dear all,
I am sorry for this delay. My cervical torticollis is giving me severe pain for the last few days and hence I am unable to concentrate and give a detailed reply. I find the contributors are much better informed and hence there may be very little that I may add up. I would, however, like to touch on three brief points.
1. I thank Dr. Arun Shankar for pointing out my big howler.Yes, Evolution over a period of time adapted itself to the environment of what was then a toxic gas and not the otherway about. Sorry for my unintended mistake.
2. Purusha and Prakriti, Kshetra and Kshetragna, DNA and Protein, all need each other and are dependent upon each other. Prakriti and Kshetra are not merely receptacles. The Kshetra should also be well tilled, aerated, with good moisture and fertiliser etc so that when the purusha and prakriti meet, the seed grows to a good tree. In fact, The Kshetra-Kshetragna Vibhaga yoga chapter in Bhagwad Geeta, is an excellent chapter for teaching Management philosophy and the requirements of good environment for successful management.
3. I know Dr. Pachauri at least for the last three decades and I have known Tata Energy Reserach Institute (Before TATA was replaced by THE),as a State of Art learning inst where many Jt.secretaries from Govt, Directors from Planning Commission, and great scientists from both private and public institutions used to take sabbatical for research.I have the highest respect both for TERI and Dr. Pachauri. I am also aware that the 1000 odd scientists of ICCP who have contributed to the study are totally devoted to science and pursuit of truth and have stated in their report what exactly they have observed. My grievance against the editorial committee, however, is that they have not acted as editors trying to reconcile contradicting points or pointing out the gaps, but have acted more as compilers and what more, have infused undesired politics into a scientifis report and another political inst has honoured them with a Nobel.You are now seeing how more and more skeletons are coming out of the cupboard.
I shall revert back with more replies in my next posting.
Regards and Respects,
Ramanathan.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr RamaJi,

I just want to add some info I got from God Talks with Arjuna (Bhagavad Gita) by Paramahansa Yogananda with regards to Purusha and Prakriti.

"Purusha, The Lord's Transcendent Presence in creation as the Kutastha Intelligence and the individualized soul and Prakriti, Nature indicate two aspects of the same GOD.
The Lord in His Transcendental or inactive aspect in creation(Purusha,Kshetrajna) and the Lord in His immanent kinetic aspect as the Creator of the universe and beings(Prakriti) are not two but ONE: The Supreme Spirit, Ishvara,Para -Purusha.
As the ocean with waves and without waves is the same ocean, so Spirit with or without creation is ever a unity.
Prakriti is the storm of maya ,delusion, relativity, that transforms the surface of the calm ocean of God into tumultuos waves of human lives.The vibratory storm of relativity is God's desireless desire to create.Its force comes from the inherent 3 gunas--sattva, rajas,tamas.Naught could exist without Prakriti's power of Maya."


Dear Dr RamaSir,
So I wouldnt be wrong if i were to understand that Purusha provided the desireless desire & the "Seed" for creation and Prakriti provided Maya, Kinetic driving force and the 3 Gunas.
They appear as seperate functions but in reality is just One Function taking forms as two.
As the saying goes " There is only One,Two is just One occuring Twice"

just wanted to share this.
get well soon
 
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RVR

Well-known member
Dr Ramanathan and Dr Renuka,

Due to Vivaga Sangamam and other activities, I am unable to participate in this thread. Both of you are contributing wonderfully. Please keep it up. I shall read the thread leasurely and participate later.

All the best
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear All,

I am attaching a word document here on Panchikarana(Grossification).

disclaimer:purely Metaphysical point of view.

renu
 

Attachments

  • Panchikarana.doc
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renuka

Well-known member
Hello Renu, what do you mean by "metaphysics"?

Cheers!



Dear NaraJi,
Now since you brought it up... I wonder if I wrongly understood the meaning of the word....
I must check it up or may be you can tell me...
may be i should have said "philosophical point of view"
Naraji.... dont forget to explain the meaning to me..
I am awaiting your answer...

thanks
renu
 
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Nara

Well-known member
...may be i should have said "philosophical point of view"
Naraji.... dont forget to explain the meaning to me..
I feel somewhat uncomfortable with the suffix "physics". Wiki says metaphysics is an explanation of transcending reality. This is quite unsatisfactory. I don't know what they mean by "transcending" reality. To me, "metaphysics" means, pardon me if I offend, is just speculation with no basis whatsoever.

The elements used in panchikarnam has no basis in reality. Even within the material sense, the 24 thathvas defined are just fantasies, not to mention the 25th thathva (Jeeva) and the 26th (Iswara). The most fantastic among these are the so called "thanmathrais".

In this sense, if metaphysics is supposed to be an examination of nature of reality, then, I have to say, panchikarnam is as far away from reality as jihadists are from non-violence.

Cheers!

p.s. Please forgive me if I give offense, and also, please drop the "ji", it puts unnecessary distance :)
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Nara,

I hope you dont mind I just want to put forth these few questions.

Do you really feel there is no Jeevaatma?
If its true that there is no Jeevaatma... then how are we animated?
How come I was never able to jump start a certified dead individual with fixed and dilated pupils(eye) like how i have jump started my car before when the battery was weak?

Are we just mechanical then?

dear Nara, after Panchikarana atoms were formed..the combination of atoms resulted in the formation of hard matter of a high density.
the matter exploded with a big bang...this was cause of creation.Sound that emanated when big bang took place is "Pranava".
That is the "Omkara"...primordial sound.. this is what was put forth by sage Kanada.
Dont you feel its acceptable?

I had read before that sage Kanada had recognized the principles of Hydrogen and Oxygen.
Dont you think his was such an original thought?

You know Nara,.. almost every thought is unproven first..one works on it to prove it or someone else beats it to him.
you know when i was a very junior intern I used to see many patients very reluctant for a mamogram bcos of the high levels of radiation.
I had then thought to myself...is there anyway we can detect cancer cells with less or no radiation?
Then all of the sudden i thought of of point from the movie Predator I had seen where the Predator uses infrared to see victims in the dark and bodily heat is detected by infrared.

I know that breast cancer cells have a higher than normal temperature and why doesnt someone make an infrared scan to detect breast cancer cells?
well i just thought about it and my friends laughed it off.
but now from what i read in medical science development infrared scan for cancer is under trial.
either someone beat it to me or was thinking on the same lines as me.

see Nara..a thought is always first unproven...

renu
 
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RVR

Well-known member
Dr Renuka

Apples were always falling . Till Sir Isac Newton discovered it as gravitational theory, there was no scientific explanation available for the same.

It is high time, our researchers evolve scientific explanations for the claims made in our ancient literature. Personally I am able to feel `music' gives a soothing effect for the mind. But unless a scientific proof is established, I cannot claim anything.

Let us hope our universities and research institutions come out with more case studies and explanations

As Dr Ramanathan pointed out `Absence of proof is not proof of absence'

All the best
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Dr Renuka

Apples were always falling . Till Sir Isac Newton discovered it as gravitational theory, there was no scientific explanation available for the same.

It is high time, our researchers evolve scientific explanations for the claims made in our ancient literature. Personally I am able to feel `music' gives a soothing effect for the mind. But unless a scientific proof is established, I cannot claim anything.

Let us hope our universities and research institutions come out with more case studies and explanations

As Dr Ramanathan pointed out `Absence of proof is not proof of absent'

All the best


Dear RVRJi,

You have got a very valid point here..Sceintific research and explanation for claims made in our ancient literature.
That would have the best outcome the best of both worlds.
It would be a boon to mankind working on an original thought of an ancient seer.

"Kaaranaabhaavat Kaaryaabhaavah
na tu kaaryaabhaavaat kaaranaabhaavah"

"There is no effect possible without a cause.
But the absence of effect does not mean the absence of cause"

Vaiseshikadarshanam1.2


Anytakers out there?


renu
 

tbs

Well-known member
Dear RVRJi,

You have got a very valid point here..Sceintific research and explanation for claims made in our ancient literature.
That would have the best outcome the best of both worlds.
It would be a boon to mankind working on an original thought of an ancient seer.

"Kaaranaabhaavat Kaaryaabhaavah
na tu kaaryaabhaavaat kaaranaabhaavah"

"There is no effect possible without a cause.
But the absence of effect does not mean the absence of cause"

Vaiseshikadarshanam1.2


Anytakers out there?


renu
hi renu ji
this is from vaisheshika sutram....but some exceptions are there..
like where there is smoke...there is a fire...but in water there is
fire..but no smoke is there....smoke in the air...but there is no fire there.....but only pratyksha/anumana...we can understand the statement in theory of scientific knowledge....


regards
tbs
 

Nara

Well-known member
Dear sister Renu, Greetings!

...
Do you really feel there is no Jeevaatma?
If its true that there is no Jeevaatma... then how are we animated?
How come I was never able to jump start a certified dead individual with fixed and dilated pupils(eye) like how i have jump started my car before when the battery was weak?


Yes, I do feel there is no Jeevathma. Evolution, The Blind Watchmaker of Dawkins, has produced a plethora of life on earth. Human brain, while it is indeed an evolutionary marvel, is still a result of natural selection primarily providing survival and reproductive advantage. While it can figure out how many things work, its capacity is not unlimited. So, we not having a definitive answer for how a collection of cells get animated is not a reason why jeevathma must be assumed. That only raises more questions like what this jeevathma is, what is it made of, etc., etc., and we go deeper and deeper into religious dogma to find answers.

All religions have thought about the origins of life. They all have their own theory about it. In each of these some elements may be true as well. That does not make the entire theory legitimate. All we can do, at best, is acknowledge the correct parts, which could very well have been just by pure chance and not careful study and validation, and reject the outlandish ones. In other words, getting big-bang right does not make panchikaranam true as well.

By the principle of Occum's razor at this point in time we can only say we don't know how the body gets animated or why we are not able to "jump start" a dead body. Not knowing these things is not reason enough to assume a jeevathma which only unnecessarily increases the complexity of what we don't know.

I know that breast cancer cells have a higher than normal temperature and why doesnt someone make an infrared scan to detect breast cancer cells?
Your idea was based on your knowledge and experience. That gives the thought a plausibility requiring further research. On the other hand, if an astrologer comes and says there is no need for any mammogram, breast cancer cells can be detected by looking at some "planet" like sun or rahu, or kethu, no sane person will take this thought seriously and hope someday it will be proven.

Not all thoughts are equal.

Cheers!
 
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Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
Dear Dr Renuka,

I am having botox injections every four months for the last ten years from a very reputable neurologist, specialist in movement disorders at NIMHANS in Bangalore. I used to have relief for about two to three months and when the effect waned, I used to repeat the injection. This time I had it in Pune from another well known Neurologist, but unfortunately the effect is not good. It is only 15 days. Let me wait and watch.

Be that as it may,

Vishnu means all pervading and Vis “enter into”. You are right and your explanations are all valid. That is the reason why, I had given the eight reasons why this is called Vishnusahasranama in Para 4.2. of pg 24.

Pancheekaranam is a very important subject and this happened long before life came into existence. Your views on this are very correct. The five great elements, the TANMATRAS of each unit of the elements, their combination in specific units of one with the other in different stages is in much the same way as different number of atoms of different elements joined together to form molecules.

The effect of the five TANMATRAS led to the five organs of perception which in turn led to the five organs of action and certain subtler inner equipment whose commands all these organs obey. All these together are known as PRAKRUTITATVA.

The PANCHEEKARANAM is explained by Adi Shankara which is further annotated by Swami Chinmayananda and also by Swami Tejomayananda as mentioned by you. Unfortunately, its understanding subsequently has degenerated and clear proofs are not available.

Even now, some of us might have observed that when the soul has departed, on the 11th day of the rituals, a poignant ritual is held which is cheaply called “SAVUNDI” and “OTHAN” that is one Brahmin is called, he is to cook his own food, eat and quietly go away from the house and no body is to see him at the time. In a more sanskitised version, this ritual is called “SAPINDIKARANAM” and this is also known as “PANCHIKARANAM”. A number of pindaas are made, all out of rice, and a particular portion of one are taken out of one and mixed with another and so on and finally the third generation ( PRAPITAMAHA) disappears into the thin space or is supposed to attain moksha. Then, the grand father occupies the position of the great grand father (PRAPITAMAHA or PARAPITAMAHI) the next lower generation the grand father (PITAMAHA or PITAMAHI) and the departed soul who was till then identified as PRETA is elevated to the status of PITRU or MATRU. Thus, the preta status no longer exists and the departed soul has become a PITRU. From the next day onwards, the Shradha is performed identifying the departed soul as PITRU or MATRU as the case may be.

All these rituals are carried out either so poignantly or so casually, that the relative proportion of mix from different levels or its relation to PANCHIKARANAM or to the five primordial elements and to the TANMATRAS which create the further TATVAS is not understood nor cared for. In my opinion, this is very important to understand the evolution of the world and the life in it and it is a multi exploratory subject of Physicists, biologists,astrophysicists, neuroscientists and pundits to interpret them properly and there will be quite a few Nobel laurettes on the subject in the future.

I am also happy with the postings of “happyhindu” and your postings of 28th

. DNA and protein, KSHETRA and KSHETRANGYA”, PURUSHA and PRAKRUTI are all different ways of stating the same in different contexts.

DNA is adept in replicating but can do virtually nothing else. Proteins cannot exist without DNA and DNA has no purpose without protein. Did they arrive simultaneously with the purpose of supporting each other ?

There is something more to it. DNA, Protein and other components of life cannot prosper without some sort of membrane to contain them. If an atom from a cell of our body is removed, it is no more alive. It is only when they are within the nurturing cell, there is life. Without the cell, they are just chemicals. But without chemicals, the cell has no purpose. Everything needs everything else.

We may further illustrate this by two examples. Electricity by itself cannot manifest as light, but when it passes through a material it is manifested as light or fan or a refrigerator or a compressor etc. Similarly, a good seed is only a potential and can germinate only in a good neutrient soil. On the other extreme, virus is a strange entity, a piece of neuclic acid. In isolation, they are inert and harmless, but introduced into a suitable host, they burst into life afflicting us with hundreds of diseases from flu, through small pox to polio and AIDS. Electricity, seeds, virus are different Kshetrangyas (PURUSHA). In active and inert by themselves. But they know how and when to get active and so is the Lord.

The cells have very small life and yet when they die, they leave the body quietly along with the struts and abutments. It is said that half the house dust every day in the morning is only of the dead cells of the human being, that is the reason why in olden days, people used to dust and clean the bedding material used daily and also sweep the floor and wipe it off daily, so that the dead cells do not give rise to any infection. But with modern conveniences of a cot, a mattress and quilt, what do we do? We only cover them with a nice bedcover.,after we get up everymorning!


Respects and regards,

Dr Ramanathan
 
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Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
Dear Dr Arun Shankar,

Thank you for your posting and remark. I could not immediately reply you because of ill health. Details regarding photosynthesis, evolution, disappearance of a huge variety and species of animals at the end of each era have all been dealt by me in a subsequent chapter and hence I would request you to read that chapter and I am not proposing to reply them here.

What impresses me, however, is your remark about climate change and the steps necessary to mitigate the effects of climate change.

While I do not agree with some of the major conclusions arrived at by the panel headed by Dr Pachauri, I agree that we should pay for the sins we have committed and rectify them and mitigate them to the extent possible. Instead of thinking grandiose plans of sequestration of Carbon-di-oxide, prevention of depletion of ozone layer, preventing rise of sea level etc, we have to think of some innovative simpler ideas. Silly though as it may look, I would suggest the following :-

Corruption has come to stay. As long as there are people to corrupt and to receive, nothing on earth can save corruption. The only thing that I suggest is we can convert this threat into an opportunity. Instead of giving Rs 500 or Rs 5000 to purchase a vote to win an election or to give a TV set which is sold the next day in the market, I suggest the following :-
1.At the time of election, let the political parties present each family with a solar lantern or any solar driven appliance. People might argue, that solar cells are too costly and that they will not be given as presents. I am only reminded of a story of Queen Victoria. When the first aluminium plant manufactured Aluminium, they prepared an aluminium plate and spoon and they presented to the Queen. They were so costly, much costlier than the gold plate she was using for food, that she discarded the gold plate, used the Aluminium plate, washed it herself and kept it in her personal safety locker. We now know the value of Aluminium plates!. Solar based equipment are not going to be manufactured or researched for in cold countries and we have to do it.

2.Do rain water harvesting on behalf of the voters in each house, in each street and village, properly following the filtration methods etc. Stop making tar and cement roads except as arterial roads and keep the roads within villages etc as soft macadam roads through which the rainwater can seep through.
3.There is no free lunch. The national rural employment guarantee scheme is an excellent approach, but the politicians are trying to make it as bad as any other scheme. Keep the village panchayats only in the picture to drill wells, to deepen the tanks and lakes and ponds etc so that the rain water is adequately stored. There are excellent methods followed by villagers in Rajasthan and these can be adopted universally. Make the payment to the villagers directly by crediting their salary to their bank accounts.
4.Give a clean coal gas stove to each family.
5.Start a gobar gas plant for each street or each village and arrange to distribute gobar gas to each house for cooking and lighting. Get the votes promised in return for these gestures.
6.Jatropha cultivation has not taken off at all in a large scale. Help villagers to adopt waste lands and uncultivated lands next to Railway lines etc, instead of the elephantine SEZ and help the villagers to grow Jatropha. They would require assistance for a small quantity of water for the first three years and then for the next 25 years they give seed yields on their own. This oil from Jetropha will help reduce consumption of diesel upto 10% in the country. Imagine the amount of saving and the amount of official corruption you can give to villagers either directly or through political parties.

7.Give responsibilities to each family, street or village to grow a certain number of trees every year in the neighbourhood and support them financially.

8.Help the fishermen, not to disturb the coral reefs or catch the chyitinous moluscs for eating purposes. They will help saving enoromous calcium carbonate from the atmosphere.

There may be many more such schemes and ideas emanating from many which can help convert the threat of corruption to an opportunity of general welfare to humanity.

Flooding takes place all the time. For eg. A study of the soil core from the Bombay oil field area has shown that there were terrestrial fresh water elements occurring as recent fossils. In other words, in a distance of 140 Kms, the sea has advanced with a water depth of about 80 m near the Bombay High Field. The timing roughly coincides with the period of Dwaraka Submergence. we have had instances of Cauvery Poompattinam in the east coast disappearing on one such event. Even recently four decades back, Danushkodi has disappeared. The recent Tsunami of 2004 has made parts of Nicobar and some other areas disappear. Therefore, flooding of areas and disappearance is a phenomenon which will happen from time to time irrespective of any climate panel. What is however required is we should not deliberately commit greater sins without compensating adequately for relief from them.

Regards and respects,

Ramanathan
 
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