Vedic learning restricted to brahmins only - true or false?

[sarang]

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Jeyamohan is a prolific writer and author. He is sure that sections of vedas appropriate to the professions followed by the varna/ jati groups, were learnt and practiced, meaning vedas were not denied to non brahmins. He concludes his article like this.


இந்தியாவில் வேதங்கள் உட்பட எந்த ஞானமும் துறவிகளுக்கு விலக்கப்படவில்லை. ரிஷிமூலம் பார்க்கப்படலாகாது என்ற நெறி என்றும் இருந்தது. தீண்டப்படாத சாதியைச்சேந்த நாராயண குரு துறவு வாழ்க்கையில் வேதவேதாங்கங்களை ஐயம்திரிபறக் கற்றார் என்பது நம் முன் உள்ள வரலாறு.வேதம் பிற வர்ணத்தவருக்கு விலக்கப்பட்டது என்றெல்லாம் பொத்தாம்பொதுவாக ஐரோப்பியர் சொல்லி நாம் கற்றுக்கொண்ட விஷயங்களை விரிவாக ஆராய்ந்து மறுபரிசீலனை செய்யவேண்டிய காலம் இது. இந்தியாவெங்கும் உள்ள ஆசாரங்கள் சடங்குகளை ஆரய்ந்து நம் வரலாற்றை நாமே எழுதிக்கொள்ளமுடியும். அப்போது பதினெட்டாம் நூற்றாண்டில் அன்றைய குறைவான தகவல்களுடன் ஐரோப்ப்பியர் உருவாக்கிக்கொண்ட பல முன்முடிவுகள் உடையும்.

http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=27410

 

[renuka]

In today's world tell me how many Brahmins themselves take the study of Vedas seriously?
So I feel any deserving candidate should learn it so that Vedic Tradition remains.

 

[Ramacchandran]

To learn Vedas in olden days it started in the womb itself. Then at age 7, The boy will be sent to a place where Guru is there and sit with him, discuss with him and absorb things around him, and learn about Eight Vidyas to know about universe, take the universe in mind and body and apply. It is not that a brahmin should sit before holy fire from age 7 all the 24 hrs and 365 days. It is not possible to type as it take a long time. Simply to gain yogin power it takes lots of stress which present day Brahmins don't have. He should not greed for money!, and a brahmin after learning should teach the upgraded one to his student. Present day we are teaching Upgraded education to the students. Since there is no one to follow it is practiced as ritual rather than science.

If we meet personally I will explain but it will take three hours.

 

[sarang]

In my opinion, even in the ancient past, only a small percentage of brahmins learnt vedas for recitation, preservation, preaching and for yagnas. many learnt only what was required for doing their ordained duties, mainly laukikam. Many brahmins were working as ministers, councillors, administrators, teachers of all arts, vaidyas, and other mundane professions.

Today too, there are many veda patasalas teaching vedas the traditional way, supplementing it with modern subjects.

In today's world tell me how many Brahmins themselves take the study of Vedas seriously?
So I feel any deserving candidate should learn it so that Vedic Tradition remains.

 

[sarang]

Lecture demonstration on vedas in two videos.

Lecture Demonstration on Vedas - Part 01 - YouTube

Lecture Demonstration on Vedas - Part 02 - YouTube

 

[renuka]

In my opinion, even in the ancient past, only a small percentage of brahmins learnt vedas for recitation, preservation, preaching and for yagnas. many learnt only what was required for doing their ordained duties, mainly laukikam. Many brahmins were working as ministers, councillors, administrators, teachers of all arts, vaidyas, and other mundane professions.

Today too, there are many veda patasalas teaching vedas the traditional way, supplementing it with modern subjects.

Dear sir,

Agreed but even though many Brahmins were working as ministers etc they were still applying whatever vedic knowledge they knew.

Vedic knowledge was not restricted to the Samhita and Brahmana portion alone(which constitutes the Karma Kanda or Ritualistic portion of the Vedas)

Aranyaka and Upanishad portion which make up the Jnana Kanda portion is equally important.
So those Brahmins who didn't work as priests still used the knowledge they acquired from Aranyaka and Upanishad portion of the Vedas.

 

[renuka]

Lecture demonstration on vedas in two videos.

Lecture Demonstration on Vedas - Part 01 - YouTube

Lecture Demonstration on Vedas - Part 02 - YouTube

Wow in part 1 of the video the speakers says that there are 2 ancient mantras which are known only to two people in Rajasthan.
A father and son.
The father who is 100 years old..recently passed away and the son is 73 years old.
And the speaker said that when the 73 year old dies..the mantras might just die with him and that knowledge will be lost.

Just hope some effort is made to record it from the 73 year old in Rajasthan.

 

[Ramacchandran]

All of you are confused with Vedas. Vedas talk about Universe and Mind. There are Two Yajur Veda one is black and the other is white. Black (Krishna)works on mind which is ritual and yagas and yagnas and white (Sukla) is for health. I made a comparison on these and written a PhD thesis. yet to be submitted for the award of degree. Actually English did a wonderful job and the diamond piece is a Sanskrit dictionary by Williams. Published in 1872. (Here is power cut will restore after power connection is restored)

 

[Ramacchandran]

English work in Vedas are really great and they gave life to Vedas. The Sanskrit english Dictionary by Monier Williams published in 1872 (Second) we should award Brahma sri to this man. Some pundits used this dictionary for everything. At one stage the Chritian fathers worried that if these scholars work hard they will convert to Hinduism. Some time back I loaded a file Vedas in Tamil. in this site. Have a look at that.

 

[renuka]

English work in Vedas are really great and they gave life to Vedas. The Sanskrit english Dictionary by Monier Williams published in 1872 (Second) we should award Brahma sri to this man. Some pundits used this dictionary for everything. At one stage the Chritian fathers worried that if these scholars work hard they will convert to Hinduism. Some time back I loaded a file Vedas in Tamil. in this site. Have a look at that.

I fully agree..Monier William Dictionary is excellent.
Vaman Apte is also good.

 

[suraju06]

Folks,

Please refer to this. May be of some help:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/8534-self-respect-movement-32.html



Cheers.

 

[B V RAAGHAVAN]

தீண்டப்படாத சாதியைச்சேந்த நாராயண குரு துறவு வாழ்க்கையில் வேதவேதாங்கங்களை ஐயம்திரிபறக் கற்றார் என்பது நம் முன் உள்ள வரலாறு.http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=27410

Namaskarams,

Shri Narayana Guru learnt vedas and vadanthas after he became a saint. If a person once enter into the sanyasa asrama he is out of the bounds of varnasrama. He is now eligible to learn all the vedas. So narayana guru was right at that point.

anbudan
adiyen

 

[Govinda]

Namaskarams,

Shri Narayana Guru learnt vedas and vadanthas after he became a saint. If a person once enter into the sanyasa asrama he is out of the bounds of varnasrama. He is now eligible to learn all the vedas. So narayana guru was right at that point.

anbudan
adiyen

All 3 varnas must undergo Upanayanam and learn Vedas. Only Brahmins are allowed to teach Vedas. Thus, all the nitya, naimittika karmAs are equally valid and obligatory for all Varnas [irrespective of a King or Farmer or Vaishya Businessman, or an artist], whose professions can keep their body/mind clean.

 

[srikrish85]

I have one quick doubt.. well actually many doubts. In Shanti Parvam, Pitamah Bishma says to Dharman, "4 varnas can learn Vedas". If so, why knowledge is restricted to bramins only? When I read thro' Griffith Translation of

Krishna Yajur Veda 18:48 (Worshipping Agni and Surya)

Give lustre to our holy priests, set lustre in our ruling chiefs
Lustre to Vaisyas, Sûdras: give, through lustre; lustre unto
me.

Book Twenty Verse 17

17 Each fault in village or in wild, company or corporeal sense,
Each sinful act that we have done to Sûdra or Vysyas, or to
either's disadvantage, e’en of that sin thou art the expiation.


Twenty Sixth Book, Verses 1 & 2

1 AGNI and Prithivî, closely connected, may they bring low for
me the boon I mention.

Vâyu and Firmament, closely connected, may they, etc.
Closely connected Dyaus and the Âditya, may they, etc.
Closely connected Varuna and Waters, may they, etc.
Lord of the seven communities and her who forms all beings,
eighth

Make our ways full of pleasantness: may So-and-So and I
agree.

2 That I to all the people may address this salutary speech,
To priest and nobleman, Sûdra and Vysya, to one of our own
kin and to the stranger.

Dear may I be to Gods and guerdon-giver. Fulfilled be this
my hope: be that my portion!

Atharva Veda - Book 18 - Hymn 32 - line 8

Do thou, O Darbha, make me dear to Brāhman and Rājanya,
dear to Sūdra, and to Arya dear,
Yea, dear to every man we love, to every man with eyes to see.


Atharva Veda - Book 19 - Hymn 62 - line 1

Make me beloved among the Gods, beloved among the Princes,
make Me dear to everyone who sees, to Sūdra and to Aryan man.


I think the word Arya refers to Vysya.

So it is clear that, Shudras should not be treatd with contempt. But, during the onset of Kali Yuga (I think Dwapara Yuga itself), caste based discriminations, have started to rise its venomous head.


It is clear from these mantras that a Vedic person:
- seeks to be forgiven for crimes against all including Shudras
- seeks to propagate Vedas to all including Shudras
- considers all Varnas – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra to be equal and respects them equally.

Thus it is clear that as per Vedas, Shudras deserve the same respect as other Varnas and as per Vedic prayer, Shudras are accorded great esteem.

The actual word used for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra is ‘Varna’ and not Jaati.


Those who choose to be Arya are called ‘Arya Varna’. Those who choose to be Dasyu become ‘Dasyu Varna’. Same for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra.


That is why Vedic Dharma is called ‘Varnashram Dharma’. The word Varna itself implies that this is based on complete freedom of choice and meritocracy.


It is also interesting that in all of these mantras, the word Shudra comes before Vaishya. So one cannot counter-argue that Shudras are given last mention or least preference.


Bheeshma said, "When tere is a conflict between Smriti and The Vedas, the Vedas are to be taken account"

But in many smritis, this is not so. Sudras are treated with contempt. We must reject the Smritis that are not in accordance with Vedas.

Man, we must applaud Ralph Griffith, for his Noble Work. He must be awarded for his work. He might have died, but his laudable works live on.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Srikrishji,
Well said.
I think this birth based division should be abolished. Knowledge should be freely available to all.

 

[renuka]

Mr. Srikrishji,
Well said.
I think this birth based division should be abolished. Knowledge should be freely available to all.

Believe me..when there is a deserving candidate no matter from which caste a Guru will appear for that person.
Many people also have been taught in dreams and wake up the next morning reciting mantras they never even knew existed.

I agree that one should learn from a Guru..but most of us think that learning is only possible through a human Guru.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Hindu Dharma Sastra are given to us by the ancient Great Rishis for
educating everyone of us. Men, women, any Caste/race people, why
even other Nationality can learn Vedas, provided if they find a Guru
to impart them and accept them for learning Vedas.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[sarang]

Why? One can easily opt out. There is no law forcing anyone to follow his birth jati or varna. In the ongoing caste census in tamilnadu, all dominant jati groups - vanniyar, kongu vellalar and many others have instructed their birth based jati members to register their caste status without fail.

Last year, during the national population census, the lady enumerator collected most of the essential details (name, age, family members, status, income group etc.) but did not ask me the caste status. When I instructed her to ask that question and fill that column, the smart lady said - there is no need sir, I know and filled it myself!

All knowledge is available to the interested, in most cases for a price. Even vedas. Times of india is advertising its 2 DVD pack of all four vedas complete in samskrit chanted by priests from karnataka and varanasi, with translation in english and hindi, and launched worldwide in 9 languages. This is also claimed to be 'national best seller'.

When was education and knowledge denied to all? Never in the history of bharat.

Mr. Srikrishji,
Well said.
I think this birth based division should be abolished. Knowledge should be freely available to all.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Believe me..when there is a deserving candidate no matter from which caste a Guru will appear for that person.
Many people also have been taught in dreams and wake up the next morning reciting mantras they never even knew existed.

I agree that one should learn from a Guru..but most of us think that learning is only possible through a human Guru.

If you go through the Niralamba Upanishad (part of Yajur Veda), it explains about the detailed meaning of Brahmin,
Atman, Brahma and Parabrahma. You can get it downloaded also. It is available on the website.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

There is a famous Balambika Temple at Nemili near Arakonam. One should
visit at least once. A single visit will bring lot of happiness, wealth etc
not only to the worshiper even to their generation without discontinuity.
Those who are interested may make a trip.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

There is a book on Introduction to Vedas by Swami Dayanand Saraswathi
which gives details on the origin of Vedas and other particulars. This is
a book to be read by everyone.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[Ramacchandran]

Dear all
On those days there was only one guru who taught everything. and the king offered money to guru to teach his student they lived in hut and need nothing except food and cloth. But to day teachers are meeting students and there are 1000 gurus who teach him. Now tell me who is guru?
Guru didn't beat Sishya and sishya didn't kill guru. The education started at 7 and concluded at 18, after which sishya will enter married life and at 21 he will enter in discussions and arrive a result. No creed for money. But to day?

 

[suraju06]

Folks,

Dear all
On those days there was only one guru who taught everything. and the king offered money to guru to teach his student they lived in hut and need nothing except food and cloth. But to day teachers are meeting students and there are 1000 gurus who teach him. Now tell me who is guru?
Guru didn't beat Sishya and sishya didn't kill guru. The education started at 7 and concluded at 18, after which sishya will enter [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]married [/FONT][FONT=inherit !important]life[/FONT][/FONT] and at 21 he will enter in discussions and arrive a result. No creed for money. But to day?

This is what is education:

AchAryAth pAdham AdattE
sishya: pAdham swamEdhayA
pAdham sabrahmachAribya:
pAdham kAlakramEnacha.

Teacher gives quarter portion of the knowledge
Student, from his own intellect, learns another quarter portion
He learns another quarter portion by his interactions with his class-mates
The rest of the quarter portion to complete the knowledge acquisition comes in course of time (from life's experiences).

 

[renuka]

Dear all

Guru didn't beat Sishya and sishya didn't kill guru.

Dear sir,

I would not be too sure of that cos there were certain rules and regulations for sishya's of the past that they should abide:

1)Should not fight with Guru
2)Should not kill Guru
3)Should not covet the Guru's wife.

And have you noticed this Shloka

ॐ सह नाववतु ।
सह नौ भुनक्तु ।
सह वीर्यं करवावहै ।
तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ।
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥
Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

Meaning:
1:Om, May God Protect us Both (the Teacher and the Student),
2: May God Nourish us Both,
3: May we Work Together with Energy and Vigour,
4: May our Study be Enlightening, not giving rise to Hostility,
5:Om, Peace, Peace, Peace.

माविद्विषावहै ...Maa Vidviss-Aavahai...not giving rise to Hostility,


For all these rules and also a prayer for preventing hostility between Guru and Shisya that means such offences have happened in the past.

To have laws that means offences would have occurred in the past and the wise laid down rules to prevent such offences in the future.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Lord Dakshinamurthy is the Guru for all of us. We have to think of him before starting anything.
In fact Lord Shiva is another Teacher to us. If we go by tradition, there are many things to look at.
Adi Shankara is a Traditional Guru besides Veda Vyas, Parasara, Sukadeva etc. There are many
Patasalas, there is one such in Tambaram, conducted very well. It is rather a difficult task to coach
students with meticulous system of recitation for correct pronunciation of Vedic humns and mantras.
Guru has to be a role model with adequate knowledge in Vedas. It may not be possible to have
similar Guru-Sikshya system, these days. Because many brahmins boys are not coming forward to
learn Vedas voluntarily, except a few. Jeevanam becomes the main trump card. In fact, I am finding
difficult to find a girl to my friend's son, who is a Gurukkal in a Siva Temple. The Girl's family is asking
me about the Guarantee of the Income and the future of the boy, though the boy has studied upto
Higher Secondary. A Sikshya has to have certain codes viz. undivided attention, commitment, discipline,
etc. besides devotion to the Guru and over all the main thing is desire to learn. Hindu Dharma is an
ocean and the Brahmin Community boys are not coming forward to learn Vedas as a main source of
income. People may casually talk, that Sastrigals are earning good sum. Because they have done good
amount of hard work, they are able to. All these aspects have to be kept in mind. If I have hurt the
feelings of anyone, I may be excused for quoting the above points.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur