Varna, Jaathi and Race

[RVR]

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I think, that the caste system is abhorrent and our society will be better off if it is eliminated.

Even if all of us want to abolish caste system, our politicians will not allow us to do it. Intercaste marriages are happening more now as compared to few years back. If a Brahmin boy marries a dalit girl, the child is still treated as a brahmin. Child inherits father's caste. Why don't our politicians pass a legislation stating that if you marry from another caste, you will be termed hereinafter as a caste-less person. If our rulers really want to create a caste-less society, they can do that.

Religion, Caste, Language and race are used by our politicians for their own petty benefit.

Subramanyan Swamy married a parsi. He is not wearing `sacred thread'. But he was abused in Madras Highcourt invoking his brahminical lineage by some lawyers few months back.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Nara ji,

First my apologies if i have been impudent anytime in anyway...had no idea was speaking to a professor.

Abt my views, i feel sir, that its only but natural for a man to try to reach the best position in life...as you said, cheris are not spared of hierarchial divisions too..its just the way man is. Its natural...blaming seems to take no one anywhere...

Now that the new industrialized age is upon us, my belief is that social changes will happen on their own..every man will try to reach the best position in life (in this 'new age scheme' of what is considered best in the present times)...

Sudinam Acharya (good day sir)...Thankyou for the conversation thus far.

Best regards.

 

[Nara]

First my apologies if i have been impudent anytime in anyway...had no idea was speaking to a professor.

I stand outed . Nara is just a moniker, it stands for Narayanan, the name given to me at the time of upanayanam, known only to close family circle. So I am impressed with Shri Venkatramani's investigative skills. I wonder how he figured it out, not that I wanted to conceal my identity. Perhaps it is the e-mail ID in my account that provided the clue.

Being a professor is not all that it is cracked up to be. Many professors hold silly views, so don't be impressed just by the title, judge me by what I say and how I say it. Further, I like to be your friend not a professor.

When we are discussing Varna, I think we need to look at it from two different perspectives. One is sort of scientific, how it evolved, and how it was used, etc. the tack you seem to take. The second is the religious view which serves as the intellectual justification for the hierarchical stratification.

When you take the first approach you see that our ancient society did not achieve a totally insular Varna system. You want to point to this and say Varna was not birth based, people were able to cross these lines. This is true, but it is not the complete picture. From the religious texts we can see that such cross pollination was seen as dangerous. So it was made illegal. Manu developed detailed codes for these cross pollination cases. Perhaps along the way many other powerful politicians added to these codes and made them increasingly strict. However, I am pretty sure these rules did not work 100% of the time as there surely were powerful people who were allowed to flout these rules, as we see even today in our Mathams. But it was sufficient to keep the vast majority of the society from crossing these lines.

So, when you say Varna was not birth based and show DNA evidence, it certainly has weight. But, I think the Varna system is by and large a birth-based system for ordering the society in a way to keep the power concentrated at the top, the top determined overwhelmingly by birth, and this is a pernicious system and got to go.

Sudinam Acharya (good day sir)...Thankyou for the conversation thus far.

Thank you, and the same to you. I enjoyed having this conversation and hope to have many more, as a friend not as a professor.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

So I am impressed with Shri Venkatramani's investigative skills. I wonder how he figured it out, not that I wanted to conceal my identity. Perhaps it is the e-mail ID in my account that provided the clu

Thanks Professor ji,

I am an ordinary man. I don't have much of investigative skills. I just clicked the following webpage which is provided by you in our website .

Tamil culture - myth and reality

All the best

 

[sapthajihva]

Varna and jaathi! Seems that one has to be apologetic for our culture that instills such practices.

Why should it be so?

 

[RVR]

Please read the following news item.

UN set to treat caste as human rights violation - India - NEWS - The Times of India

Caste is becoming a global phenomenon

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Venkataramani ji,

I was just reading that article with interest. Though the UN and EU do seem to work in support of one another in this matter, the UN stand seems to somewhat vary from that of the EU (who wish to dub caste as race). i do feel that the EU shd be kept as far away as possible in this matter (this was discussed in an other thread). Surprisingly (or rather expectedly), the european governments do not seem to agressively pursue this matter with Pakistan or Bangladesh: European Parliament hosts meeting on caste discrimination in South Asia, 04-06-2008

As far as the UN is concerned, methinks it might benefit those who wish to see caste-based reservations go. I for long have wanted to see this whole OBC, BC, MBC, SC, ST rubbish disapper into thin air. Academic reservations will be forced to reach the poor and politicians cannot manipulate seat structuring.

Also, with nothing more to make politics out of, politicians will be forced to choose party candidates for elections, not based on caste, but based on the candidates' ability / performance as efficient administrators (wonder what will the likes of mayawati and the kazhagams do).

Looks like some clouds do have a silver lining. A lot wud depend on how the silver lining is used to benefit all i suppose...

 

[pannvalan]

In my assessment, the pernicious practice of 'casteism' based on one's birth came into vogue, in 13th century AD.

These two statements I always cherish.

In Political Science:

"In any form of government - monarchy, aristocracy or democracy - there are only two classes of people. One, the ruling and the other being ruled". - Machiavelli, Italian political scientist of 15th century AD.

In Materials Management:

"In any large population, there is a significant few and insignificant many" - Y's law.

The second statement can be applied to any life situation and it still holds good.

Today, castes have become convenient tools in the hands of politicians and caste groups, for their narrow ends, as the divisions in the society helps them retain their power and authority.

But, as common folks, we must always strive to work against perpetuating the caste system.

It may sound paradoxical if say that castes cannot be abolished in the near future, but what we have to do is include all sections of the society in growth and development of the country (this is what they call inclusive growth) and learn to treat all with equal respect and love.

This we can start doing at personal levels first.

 

[kunjuppu]

........ But, as common folks, we must always strive to work against perpetuating the caste system.

It may sound paradoxical if say that castes cannot be abolished in the near future, but what we have to do is include all sections of the society in growth and development of the country (this is what they call inclusive growth) and learn to treat all with equal respect and love.

This we can start doing at personal levels first.

absolutely marvellous pann.

i think, the reality of caste as a political tool in today's india, precludes its disappearance in the near future.

but just because a wrong is misused, there is no need to justify its continuing practice in our personal lives.

broad based uplift of all communities is an absolute must. this means representations and role models, at all levels, both in government and private sector of individuals from across the spectrum.

hopefully, the practice of affirmative quotas in education, has atleast scratched the surface. if i remember right, one finds all communities in the ranks of doctors, engineers and other professionals.

unless the development is broad based, india is in for grief in the future generations.

for the sake of india, and for the sake of our own souls, i think, to remove stigma of caste and its (particularly from TB viewpoint) associated exclusivity, from our minds, is one giant leap in the evolution of modern tamil hinduism.

thank you.

 

[Nara]

but just because a wrong is misused, there is no need to justify its continuing practice in our personal lives.

Hello!

This is the kind of self-initiated revolution in thinking I hope for, one person at a time. Politicians will not change, they are good at fanning passions.

Cheers

 

[RVR]

All the political parties want divisions within the communities. Even if the communities want to give up, the politicians will not allow us to do it.

Best thing is to leave it to natural forces.

 

[sapthajihva]

Please read the following news item.

UN set to treat caste as human rights violation - India - NEWS - The Times of India

Caste is becoming a global phenomenon

The human rights violation would indeed apply if discrimination were practised on the basis of caste and not otherwise! ie., the sort of discrimination which would deny a basic human right and not otherwise.

That does not in any way mean that the system of jaathi is itself a wrong notion as seen by some of the views expressed here. I leave the topic of varna aside. Jaathi is mainly used to associate people of like cultures and practices. Is there any law to negate this? Just as people are free to follow any religion of their own free will (or not believe at all), people are free to follow their traditions. This notwithstanding, all humans are treated with the dignity as befits any human.

We tend to associate some wrong doings with the system rather than with the implementation. The system was so because the state, i.e., the monarch, in those days accepted the system of jaathi and endorsed it. It has changed with changing times. But how does it show that jaathi is a discriminatory practice? The issue would only arise if we look at jaathi itself as the root cause of such discrimination. Is it really so? We need to reflect on this.

An individual may follow his culture and tradition AND respect others. Why does this seem impossible? Yes, it would seem so only if jaathi itself is viewed as discriminatory. But this is yet to be proved!

It is really sad to see talks about abolishing jaathi or comments hinting that we are justifying it. Things have been implanted so deeply in our psyche that jaathi is akin to discrimination that we tend to think so. More so when the govt. machinery itself is fuelled by such factors.

There is nothing wrong in jaathi; and there is no need to justify it, neither the need to abolish it.

 

[Nara]

Dear Sapthajihva:

Greetings!

That does not in any way mean that the system of jaathi is itself a wrong notion...

[..]

But how does it show that jaathi is a discriminatory practice?

[..]

Yes, it would seem so only if jaathi itself is viewed as discriminatory. But this is yet to be proved!

[..]

There is nothing wrong in jaathi; and there is no need to justify it, neither the need to abolish it.

What do you think the answer to these questions be as we descend down the jaathi hierarchy?

There is a plethora of written material documenting scores of atrocities committed in the name of jAthi.

In 1997, in Melavalavu village near Madurai six Dalits were hacked to death because one of the six was uppity enough to stand for and win a reserved panchayat president seat. His head was severed and thrown into a well.

Even as recent as a few months ago there was a standoff between Dalits and caste Hindus in a small town near Madurai where a wall was erected some 20 years ago to prevent the Dalits from entering the caste Hindu section of the town requiring the Dalits to take a circuitous route to anything and everything.

In another case in Salem district there was an attempt to build a wall in the village common area with the view to prevent Dalits from entering the temple.

These may be extreme cases, but the daily indignities suffered by these unfortunate people are no small matter and quite heart-wrenching.

I would recommend an interesting series of short stories by a Dalit writer named Bama. Her widely acclaimed and somewhat autobiographical novel called "Karukku" gives a vivid account of the daily shame and humiliation Dalits are made to endure. Here is a small excerpt from a review of this novel.

Constantly reproved for being a member of a lower caste, the Dalit children go through severe abuse and torment. The novel is not just the story of the author alone. It seeks to expose the plight of thousands of Dalit children. The author also finds that several of her own people have internalized the inferiority that is imposed on them by the upper classes. She wants her novel to be a "two-edged sword". While on the one hand it challenges the oppressors who have enslaved and disempowered the Dalits, on the other hand it reiterates the need for a new society with ideals such as justice, equality and love.​

I know that many in this forum will distance themselves from these and put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the TNB. But the sad history of these atrocities places Brahmins squarely in the middle of those who are responsible. Brahmins provide the intellectual justification based in one form or another.

If following custom and tradition is doing Sandhyavandhanam and having Golu, then why do you need jAthi? These can be done even without jAthi.

There is no point in simply lamenting that the government brands people into castes. That should not be the excuse to deny responsibility or downplay need for change. For starters, each Brahmin elder can encourage the youngsters to marry outside the jAthi. These marriages are becoming common. I am sure in many families there are already a few of these. Give these marriages your open support. These are the kinds of things Brahmins can do right now without waiting for the government to stop saying that a child of Brahmin father and Dalit mother is still a Brahmin for the purposes of reservation.

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Greetings dear Nara,

As I said before respecting the dignity of a human is paramount; there is no second opinion on this. Bringing the notion of jaathi into the social sphere to equate the status of a human is derogatory and is to be condemned.

But what is this jaathi all about? Is it only about japam and golu and celebrations? Think we need to get an understanding of this first, before delving further.

Group behaviour is one psychological inclination that brings a cohesiveness among humans. Agreed, that the topmost level is that we are humans. But you see, though this is an ideal, we, as an individual have specific likes and dislikes. Now, one cannot go on commenting that they too have to be conditioned - a virtually impossible ask! Right from eating habits to observance of cleanliness, individuals differ. We tend to, like particles, agglutinate with like-minded individuals. Both on the mental as well as the physical plane.

This pattern has disadvantages as well. Complexes tend to appear, but then again, these are but natural. One need not curb the natural inclination or orientation of humans by indoctrinating only one idea. Moreover, humans are not mere machines, to be controlled by a single idea. There is also an emotional aspect, a passion in following a particular culture. It is the identity of the individual, the family and the nation. It blends spirituality and materiality together and gives a meaning to our existence.

One establishes certain principles which have been inculcated either due to the society during a certain period or due to some philosophical inclination. This forms the core of the 'value' system, handed out to each succeeding generation. Every individual continuously evaluates the world around him based on this value system. It too undergoes changes based on reaction stimuli, but that depends on the individual.

When families of such similar patterns join in marriage, it is bound to give more synergy. But there are other variables which govern marriages now, thus clouding the effect. It is not a compulsion to marry outside the jaathi to prove that one respects other humans too. I respect them, but I am allowed to have my preferences. That does not make the other inferior in any way!

You have given some examples of extreme abuse meted out on the basis of caste. And hence abolish jaathi - period. Is that all? Why not re-orient the thinking that all jaathis are to be respected, in their cultural rights without any abuse? People who are so sentimentally strong in jaathis are not going to easily accept a jaathiless society, leave alone the brahmins.

The idea of abolishing jaathi is equally extreme as a remedy, just as the reverse discrimination we see happening in India. This is not a solution. It is vendetta.

Negative discrimination for basic human rights is to be condemned. There is a history of such abuse, against blacks, jews, the infidels and the uncivilized. All this did not happen with jaathi as a back drop. The tendency of human groups to establish a superiority over other groups has existed from time immemorial; it is this thinking that has to be decimated, rather than pointing fingers to suit one's convenience.

But then again, coming to the main point - is it not acceptable to have jaathis and abolish discrimination? Did we ever think of it as an alternative at all?

Jaathis are not discriminatory, rather they tell about the background of the generation, the family and the individual. While one may argue that it is not so, there are still those who carry themselves sincerely.

We are moving towards a world of acceptance - where each is expected to respect the others' dignity and self-esteem.

When people of strong opposing principles meet, there may not be a strong frequency match between them, but respect, yes. Likewise, it is unwise to try to club people arbitrarily based on one's notion of justice. It will not bring harmony, but certainly animosity.

 

[Nara]

Dear Sapthajihva

Greetings!

The idea of abolishing jaathi is equally extreme as a remedy, just as the reverse discrimination we see happening in India. This is not a solution.

Why is abolishing, "extreme" remedy? What do you think we as a society will loose if jaathi is eliminated? If we detect cancer in our body we don't say the elimination of it is extreme remedy.


[...]

Did we ever think of it as an alternative at all?

Why do we need an alternative? What positive purpose does jAthi serve?

Regards!

 

[sapthajihva]

Dear Sapthajihva

Greetings!



Why is abolishing, "extreme" remedy? What do you think we as a society will loose if jaathi is eliminated? If we detect cancer in our body we don't say the elimination of it is extreme remedy.


[...]



Why do we need an alternative? What positive purpose does jAthi serve?

Regards!

Greetings Nara,

Your statements contain a presupposition that jaathi is akin to cancer without allowing a discussion on the same. It is illogical.

First we have to see whether jaathi does have any negative effects which overrides any positives it may have.

Why should we think about abolishing it? What purpose does a jaathiless society serve?

Regards,

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Nara ji and Sapthajihva,

Please let me know if, in this discussion, you are considering jaati and varna as one and the same or different from one another.

Since jati simply means 'occupation' to me, the terms used by both of you as jati-based or jaatiless society is sorta not clear to me.

Its an interesting conversation between both of you, and I think I am going to enjoy reading both sides of the discussion between both of you...

Regards.

 

[RVR]

I know that many in this forum will distance themselves from these and put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the TNB. But the sad history of these atrocities places Brahmins squarely in the middle of those who are responsible. Brahmins provide the intellectual justification based in one form or another.

Sri Nara ji,

Personally I have faced both class struggle and caste struggle in Tamilnadu. I am on the verge of retirement and I stayed my whole life in Tamilandu only.

My father was an agriculturist and we had just 30 plus acre land in the erstwhile Tanjore district (comprising Tanjore, Nagappattinum and Tiruvarur districts). Big land lords in the district those days were V.S.Thiagaraja Mudaliar, Poondi Vandayar, Ukkadai Thevar, Valivalam Desikar, Kabisthalam Moopanar etc. All these people had 1000 + acres of land. When land ceiling came, all these people escaped the ceiling by constructing sugar mills or educational institutions and transferring lands to Trusts.

None of the above belonged to the TB community. My father used to advice me during my younger days to study well and migrate to city which I obeyed faithfully. Gradually we sold the lands and moved out of the `Agraharam' to a highly cosmopolitan area in Chennai City.

I witnessed the above `class' struggle from the side lines. My children don't know anything about it.

I brought up my children without teaching Jaathi, Varnam and race. Only when they completed the schooling, they came to know about the caste discrimination during college admission. My children have friends from all religion & castes. When their friends are getting admission in good colleges due to the reservations, they got their first shock of discrimination based on birth.

My children are moving out of India after undergraduate degrees. None of them like India and have found a way out to do post graduate degree in a foreign university & integrate with that country after higher education. I have not asked them to move out of India but they are taking their own decisions.

Now marriages are held at about 25 plus or minus and our youngsters are more matured to take decisions at that age. Parents role in selecting the partner is getting reduced to a great extent.

Let us leave it to natural forces and things will settle on its own. Even if I suggest a partner, my children may not agree. My only choice is to go along with the children.

TB community basically withdraws from fight and move into new opportunity areas. I moved out of `Agraharam' due to `class' struggle. My children are moving out of India due to `caste' struggle. But still if we are blamed for the problems of some other community, then it is not our mistake.

 

[happyhindu]

But the sad history of these atrocities places Brahmins squarely in the middle of those who are responsible. Brahmins provide the intellectual justification based in one form or another.

Sir,

Irrespective of whether or not brahmins provided or did not provide intellectual justification, would NBs anyways have followed such things anyway? Meaning wud they have followed the brahmin's justification of hierarchial structuring, irrespective of whether it existed or not?

Beleive me sir when i say this - i have come across a lot more egoistical people suffering from all forms of ego amongst NBs, the greatest affliction of all being panam thimuru. And i have certainly seen cases where its really difficult for an 'outsider' to fit into NB households.

It seems to me that the largest section of the population, that belongs to neither the brahmin group nor dalit group, structure themselves based on their own criteria of what each considers as status (please read as: money). And i think quite a portion of that population exploits everyone, from priests to dalits, for their selfish ends.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

I fully agree with you Ms. Happy Hindu ji,

`Class' struggle always overtakes `Caste' struggle. Economic status will buy any thing including a boy or girl from the so called superior `caste'. There is a proverb in Tamil பணம் என்றால் பிணமும் வாயை பிளக்கும் (If you talk about money, even a corpse will open its mouth).

The present problems in India is basically illeteracy and poverty. Both are inversely proportional. If literacy improves, poverty will go down. Still one third of the Indians don't know how to read and write in their mother tongue. Once literacy level improves, people will move out of the villages to cities, other states & countries. They will not carry their `jathi' baggage along with them. They will marry even non-Indians and may give up religion also. Kerala is the best example.

 

[venkatpasupathy]

Dear Sapthajihva:

Greetings!



What do you think the answer to these questions be as we descend down the jaathi hierarchy?

There is a plethora of written material documenting scores of atrocities committed in the name of jAthi.

In 1997, in Melavalavu village near Madurai six Dalits were hacked to death because one of the six was uppity enough to stand for and win a reserved panchayat president seat. His head was severed and thrown into a well.

Even as recent as a few months ago there was a standoff between Dalits and caste Hindus in a small town near Madurai where a wall was erected some 20 years ago to prevent the Dalits from entering the caste Hindu section of the town requiring the Dalits to take a circuitous route to anything and everything.

In another case in Salem district there was an attempt to build a wall in the village common area with the view to prevent Dalits from entering the temple.

These may be extreme cases, but the daily indignities suffered by these unfortunate people are no small matter and quite heart-wrenching.

I would recommend an interesting series of short stories by a Dalit writer named Bama. Her widely acclaimed and somewhat autobiographical novel called "Karukku" gives a vivid account of the daily shame and humiliation Dalits are made to endure. Here is a small excerpt from a review of this novel.

Constantly reproved for being a member of a lower caste, the Dalit children go through severe abuse and torment. The novel is not just the story of the author alone. It seeks to expose the plight of thousands of Dalit children. The author also finds that several of her own people have internalized the inferiority that is imposed on them by the upper classes. She wants her novel to be a "two-edged sword". While on the one hand it challenges the oppressors who have enslaved and disempowered the Dalits, on the other hand it reiterates the need for a new society with ideals such as justice, equality and love.
​

I know that many in this forum will distance themselves from these and put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the TNB. But the sad history of these atrocities places Brahmins squarely in the middle of those who are responsible. Brahmins provide the intellectual justification based in one form or another.

If following custom and tradition is doing Sandhyavandhanam and having Golu, then why do you need jAthi? These can be done even without jAthi.

There is no point in simply lamenting that the government brands people into castes. That should not be the excuse to deny responsibility or downplay need for change. For starters, each Brahmin elder can encourage the youngsters to marry outside the jAthi. These marriages are becoming common. I am sure in many families there are already a few of these. Give these marriages your open support. These are the kinds of things Brahmins can do right now without waiting for the government to stop saying that a child of Brahmin father and Dalit mother is still a Brahmin for the purposes of reservation.

Cheers!

Dear sir,
I do not agree with your view that brahmins provide intellectual justification for perpetuation of jathis. In Tamilnadu it is the so called upper castes or caste hindus that perpetuate casteism. These people even if they convert to other religion will not cast away caste. In fact it was brahmins that provided intellectual inputs for doing away with caste in soceity. Venkat

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear sir,
I do not agree with your view that brahmins provide intellectual justification for perpetuation of jathis. In Tamilnadu it is the so called upper castes or caste hindus that perpetuate casteism. These people even if they convert to other religion will not cast away caste. In fact it was brahmins that provided intellectual inputs for doing away with caste in soceity. Venkat

venkat,

your first and last sentences and the rest of your message do not connect.

let us consider the rest of the message: i agree with you 100%. currently, the overt practices are still by caste hindus.

i think, though the brahmins also practice it. not so blatantly as the previous generations, but the concept of caste is ingrained deep in all of us, i think.

does it do any good, if we point our fingers at others, to absolve us of any responsibility?

which is where we come to the first and last sentence of your post:

the intellectual justification: i think, whether we like it or not, brahmins are deemed to be on top of the hierarchy of caste. this is a fact.

there were certain enlightened individuals from TB community, who called for reformation. but these calls were few and far between, and has not seeped through the density of our psyche.

we only have to look at our groupings, our marriage arrangements and our sense of identity. for most folks, i think, caste identitiy comes before religion, language.

once we accept this, we can start thinking about the righteousness of some of our inactions.

i say inactions, because, due to our weakened state in the affairs of tamil nadu, TBs, i think, are not in a position to blatantly practice the old 'ஒத்திப்போ' type of segregation in the name of madi or sudhham.

i think, we started to abjure these practices, not out of any intellectual enlightenment, but more out of fear of mockery or inability to enforce it. the latter became a reality, when the other castes refused to listen to our commands.

hierarchical supremacy is only valid if the folks below are willing to acknowledge our summitary position. now that we have lost that in the mind of the other tamil tribes, we might want to ponder, whether we sit back and watch the bloodletting or take some initiative.

why? because, i think, all of us, in our own way, care about our hindu heritage, our temples, our hymns, and above all, a feeling that it is good for tamil hinduism to thrive and prosper.

i think, it is in this context, that initiatives from each and every one of us, to do our little mite, towards to destruction, of what nara rightfully says, 'cancer' in our midst.

let those who convert to other religions, continue to practise casteism. we don't care. what we should and must care, is that, within our pan hindu tamil tribes, we as TBs should advocate, practice and take the lead on a personal level to remove this odious stigma to our civilization.

maybe we are not responsible now for the bad. would it be not great to be responsible now for the good?

we cannot depend on the so called leaders of the community, religious or otherwise to give us a lead in this matter. they are all bankrupt, i think, in ideas and vision.

as normal humans, experiencing day to day experiences, i think we can justify and be proud in doing some good for our community, in the long term.

we have had examples of grass roots participation before in reforms: independence movement, anti hindi agitation, women's education, mobility in search of greener pastures and above all, an open mind

i think, the worst of the alternatives, is to sit back smug, do nothing, and blame the current caste crisis on the other upper castes, and hide the stains from our blackened past in some gloves of self delusion. by such, we are not doing ourselves, our progeny, our religion, any good. atleast i think so.

let us do the right thing.

thank you.

 

[Nara]

Greetings to all:

Please let me know if, in this discussion, you are considering jaati and varna as one and the same or different from one another.

It really does not matter. To a Dalit child who is beaten for the crime of drinking water from the same pot as other upper caste children, what difference does it make whether Varna and Jaathi are the same or not, or whether Varna is birth based or not.

Irrespective of whether or not brahmins provided or did not provide intellectual justification, would NBs anyways have followed such things anyway?

I know, many upper caste NBs are pretty bad. But does that then follow that Brahmins need not feel any responsibility for their part. Yes, many rich people look down upon poor irrespective of caste. That does not mean caste based discrimination is any less insidious or does not exist.

I brought up my children without teaching Jaathi, Varnam and race. Only when they completed the schooling, they came to know about the caste discrimination during college admission.

This shows that you did not discriminate against anyone. It does not address the question of ever present discrimination in the form of denial of access, denial of services, and sometimes violent reprisals against those who try to assert their rights. We talk about reservation in colleges. The struggle for getting admission into good colleges, however stressful it may be, does not even begin to compare with the struggle for survival in an environment of constant humiliation and oppression.

Also, I always wondered what the people who complain about college and employment reservations would say about the 100% reservation for Brahmins in Veda Patashalas and temples controlled by Brahmins. To avoid being hypocritical I encourage Brahmins who oppose the present caste based reservation system for educational institutions to voice their support for opening up Veda Patashalas to everyone and recruit Gurukkal and Bhattars based on merit.

Many Brahmins look at themselves and their practices and their culture and think it is all benign, what is all the fuss. To them, I say, please talk to a Dalit and ask him/her about varna/jAthi and what they think about it. The answer you get will not be very pleasant.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

This shows that you did not discriminate against anyone. It does not address the question of ever present discrimination in the form of denial of access, denial of services, and sometimes violent reprisals against those who try to assert their rights. We talk about reservation in colleges. The struggle for getting admission into good colleges, however stressful it may be, does not even begin to compare with the struggle for survival in an environment of constant humiliation and oppression.

Your statement is correct that certain sections are still discriminated in villages. When they try to assert their rights, violent reactions are there. But in Cities and Towns, it is not the case. I am always advocating that Dalits and other backward classes should concentrate on education and migrate to cities, other states and countries. Tamilnadu still has 26% illiterate people. Schools in villages do not have teachers. Even though caste wise illiteracy figures are not available, I earnestly feel SC, ST, Muslims, MBC and OBC will form major chunk of this 26%. When a person is not getting basic school education, how can he aspire for higher education? It only means a section of the reserved communities are enjoying all the benefits where as substantial portion are not able to participate in the admission process itself.

Also, I always wondered what the people who complain about college and employment reservations would say about the 100% reservation for Brahmins in Veda Patashalas and temples controlled by Brahmins. To avoid being hypocritical I encourage Brahmins who oppose the present caste based reservation system for educational institutions to voice their support for opening up Veda Patashalas to everyone and recruit Gurukkal and Bhattars based on merit.

We have read about Nandanar and Thiruppanazhwar, both belonging to Dalith community, attained the lotus feet of God. There is nothing wrong in encouraging other communities to get proper training in Agama Sastras and performing poojas. Already Kerala high court has permitted in spite of opposition from local Namboodiris.
At Vaishnavi temple, Thirumullaivayil, Chennai (founded by Late Parthasarathi Iyengar), we don’t discriminate anybody based on religion, caste or gender to perform pooja. A dalit woman can perform pooja directly to Vaishnavi Devi. I wish other temples follow this example.

Many Brahmins look at themselves and their practices and their culture and think it is all benign, what is all the fuss. To them, I say, please talk to a Dalit and ask him/her about varna/jAthi and what they think about it. The answer you get will not be very pleasant.

In our factory, where I am CEO, I interact with Dalits more. I encourage them to come up and informally I discussed with them about the oppression and all. Being in Chennai City, they don’t have much of complaints. When Mayavathi became Chief Minister of UP with Brahmin support, it created lot of good will. I wish Brahmins in Tamilnadu support a Dalit candidate for Chief Ministership which will go a long way in creating goodwill. Dignity in society is the most important aspect which I give inside my factory and they are also reciprocating me with loyalty, sincerity and integrity.

 

[Nara]

Hello Sapthajihva

Greetings!

First we have to see whether jaathi does have any negative effects which overrides any positives it may have.

The negatives of jAthi are well documented. See my posts #64 and #74. Now it is your turn to list the "positives" of the jAthi system. To be precise, please list the positives that can only exist within the jAthi.

Why should we think about abolishing it? What purpose does a jaathiless society serve?

What purpose you ask, look at all the societies around the world without jAthi, the same purpose, with all warts and all, will be served by such a society.

Cheers!