Varna, Jaathi and Race

[sapthajihva]

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Hello Nara,

I undestand that you chose to selectively pick and reply. And your posts are nothing but repetitions. You failed to prove how caste is 'the discriminating factor' logically. Calling a logic as weak, you need to substatiate why it is so!

If you dont see the necessity to prove it, then it remains your opinion/viewpoint only. That be the case, please do not repeat that brahmins need to shed caste.

Calling the system names does not prove your point. It only highlights the inability to substantiate your stand logically.

Should you wish to continue in this pattern, I have nothing more to add to our discussion here.

Cheers & Regards,

 

[sapthajihva]

Indeed? Can you substantiate how Nara had substantiated his viewpoint here??

 

[sapthajihva]

Please read my post #103 where I have replied as to how answering this question itself is a logical fallacy since caste is not the discriminating factor. The question which Nara has posed is a kind of trap/leading query, similar to 'Do you beat your wife regularly?'.

I can give you examples of many such positive/negative posers which are seemingly 'stunning' (as you seem to think so!), but have no relevance since they are a type of leading queries.

I have shown how caste is not the discriminating factor; rather, it is a grouping of similar identities. Now the onus is on Nara to disprove it.

Hence, the quoted query is irrelevant here!

Logic does not change with BC or AD!

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Quote from msg "If possible, let us jointly form a trust like KIT. KIT is not restricting their activites only to Kerala . Probably we can align with them instead of duplicating. If not, let us atleast give proper advice and guidance so that let them come up in life. If possible, let us extend our services to other communities also. We are not against any other religion or caste."

I agree with this observation,I had an occasion to co-operate (invisibly to them) on one instance. Their method is to inform well wishers and volunteers on necessity.Individuals will co-operate in that.They don't keep a large corpus obviously.The same or an adapted version can suitably adopted by TB .com initiated body/trust.

Inter alia let me inform about the election of new committee for Kerala Brahmana Sabha. TB.com may send fraternal greetings on behalf of all members .

link for the news item in The Hindu.
The Hindu : Kerala / Kochi News : Kerala Brahmana Sabha office-bearers elected

greetings.

 

[RVR]

Sri Surya kasyapa and sri s.r.k

Thanks for your encouraging response.Let us do something for poor and downtrodden members of our community.

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

single,

i believe you have outstanding replies due to certain members and moderators.

i would strongly recommend that you attend to those first, before foraying into the forum threads.

thank you.

 

[Nara]

Hello Sapthjihva, Greetings!

You failed to prove how caste is 'the discriminating factor' logically.

There is a saying in Thamiz that goes something like you can only awaken someone who is really sleeping. I know that I can never provide proofs that will convince you. But I will summarize a few here for the benefit others who may still be following this thread.

• A man was murdered near Madurai because he was a Dalit elected to the punchayat presidency. The only reason he was murdered was that the dominant caste did not want a Dalit to be the president. Caste was the reason for this man to be murdered.
• A child was beaten for the crime of drinking water from a pot that was forbidden for her based on caste. If she was not a Dalit she would have had no problem drinking from that pot. She was discriminated against based on caste.
• In another village near Madurai, a wall was built right across the village to prevent the Dalits from entering the area that was reserved for the higher caste to congregate based on their caste identity.

and there are thousands more....

Now, I once again challenge you to provide one case where a positive thing could not be had unless we continue the caste system.

Cheers!

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Varna,Jathi,and race....

I am now posting this. a bit concerned.
I feel that the threads get strayed into irrelevant territories defeating the overall aim and purpose for which the site is envisaged originally .

I am afraid the moderators themselves fall prey to this (or consciously contributing to be so with some positive intention).I politely request the moderators to function as stirring spoons and boundary walls only. Many times , it appears, they themselves enter into posting their views ,this,at times leading the thread line away from the original by adding new contours to the discussion .
I feel it will be more effective if moderators and Super moderators keep on sidelines and as act as line umpires, and interfere just when play goes foul or ball goes away from court.
Now about NARA’s postings.
I do not know anything about the identity of NARA, as I have only seen his postings.
Hence from guess and deduction by logic I feel that NARA ,may be a real Patron Pillar for the site OR an”avatar” for one of the moderators OR may be a benign intended “plant”to genuinely provoke and elicit
cream of views OR (as height of my imagination,) a deliberate inbuilt guard to ward off anticipatory outside onslaughts.
From the insulation of the moderators to his postings , it can be deducted that they are fully aware of Nara’s genuine credentials and benign intentions.

But , even then, , I feel it goes towards overkill. My humble request to NARA is the single point dwellings are too much.

The members are in this site/forum for finding common contributed solutions , and not to be instructed and intimidated .with oft-heard similar propaganda.and still all hearing and seeing same genre acerbic postings and vitriolic verbose , in English and vernacular print and internet, apart from speech from dias and “Pattimandrams”.

It is to find a solace and counter- effort to these baitings and bashings that many members come to this site. Now situation is that members feel open world is more naïve and harmless than the forum — outside ,at least they know the attacker for sure.

If intention is reforming, then , we had great and sincere reformers like Raja Ram Mohan Roy,Sree Narayana Guru, and to latter days even EMS Namboodiripad. who did not resort to acidity and verbal attacks.Even self proclaimed AB politicians are also not this much overenthusiastic. The present overplay spoils the whole show.

While admitting the erudition and vast source and vocabulary of NARA. let me humbly remind,:similar writings are abundantly available .
This site is attracting fresh members.
So, NARA, please,please, at least for sake of preventing disheartening and disappointing new and novice members, kindly dilute down .

Assuming you are one of the benign intented person behind the efforts, I appeal to you,
Please be available always,, as a real patron, with backroom support in compiling,and sourcing and archiving. Members and community would be benefited better by that.
Gretings and Hopes.

 

[kunjuppu]

surya,

nara is an honourable member, verified and validated.

it is better that we all stick to the issue and not the persons.

surya, we value your posts and ideas just as much as naras.

as a rule, when donning he moderator cap, we post in highlighted red font.

otherwise it is normal black font. like this one, which is kunjuppu the member. and not the moderator.

objectionable posts, as i view it, are those that are rude, impertinent and impolite.

objectionable ideas, are in the minds of the viewer.

the forum, i think, is a large enough place for all ideas within a boundary, and the boundary has been clearly spelt out in our mission statement.

as you might have noticed, we are a diaspora, not only in geography, but also in thinking.

in many instances, perhaps only our common ancestry is our common link.

but that hopefully is not a hinderance to exchange of ideas. it is hoped that the forum is a room with windows on all the walls, so that breezes flow from all the cardinal points.

please be assured, should any of those breezes smell objectionable, the moderators on guard, will do the needful to dispel the nasty odour.

hope this explains our overall approach.

thank you.

 

[sapthajihva]

Greetings Nara,

Hello Sapthjihva, Greetings!

There is a saying in Thamiz that goes something like you can only awaken someone who is really sleeping. I know that I can never provide proofs that will convince you. But I will summarize a few here for the benefit others who may still be following this thread.

• A man was murdered near Madurai because he was a Dalit elected to the punchayat presidency. The only reason he was murdered was that the dominant caste did not want a Dalit to be the president. Caste was the reason for this man to be murdered.
• A child was beaten for the crime of drinking water from a pot that was forbidden for her based on caste. If she was not a Dalit she would have had no problem drinking from that pot. She was discriminated against based on caste.
• In another village near Madurai, a wall was built right across the village to prevent the Dalits from entering the area that was reserved for the higher caste to congregate based on their caste identity.

and there are thousands more....

You are singing the same tune again and again. Well then, here I go again - these cases do not logically show that caste is the discriminating factor. It only follows that these people discriminated on the basis of caste. I can now fit the phrase, about awakening a sleeping man, you cited, to your comments.

You have not shown how cases of discrimination could be shown to mean that the system itself is faulty.

I have to assume then, you do not have an answer to this; that being the case, it is meaningless to evaluate the pros and cons of the caste system. Which then, makes your whole agenda null and void.

There are numerous cases where rich men were murdered for their wealth. Do we then conclude that wealth is the reason for the heinous act and pass laws disallowing any individual from accumulating wealth?

There are examples where people are denigrated based on power - do we then conclude that power is a discriminatory factor and disallow positions of power?

Even people of the same caste discriminate amongst themselves based on variables like lineage, status, knowledge, manners etc. This shows that discrimination is a standalone factor which uses any vehicle to exhibit itself.

I can go on and on, but this should suffice to show that your conclusions on caste are baseless. This is not a matter of individual convenience that can be propogated here, in this forum.

Now, I once again challenge you to provide one case where a positive thing could not be had unless we continue the caste system.

You seem to think that I cannot answer this... I assure you that I will, provided you logically prove that 'caste discriminates'. Citing examples of discrimination does not prove that.

I repeat this - if we were to apply your logic that caste discriminates, then it naturally follows that whosoever practice it, discriminate people. I have seen numerous examples of persons who followed caste and did not discriminate. What then, does this no-discrimination by caste people indicate? Again, I have seen 'casteless' people vilify others and discriminate on the basis of money, power, status, colour, language and what not. Your conclusions are contradictory in nature and have no foundation in logic.

Is it hard to understand this simple truth?

We seem to be going around in circles; that caste discriminates, cannot be proven logically by you or by anyone. The simple reason being that it is not the truth. I now end this discussion on this topic in this thread and leave the viewers to decide.

Regards,

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Hello Shri Sapthajihva:

Greetings!

if we were to apply your logic that caste discriminates, then it naturally follows that whosoever practice it, discriminate people. I have seen numerous examples of persons who followed caste and did not discriminate. What then, does this no-discrimination by caste people indicate?

Whether or not caste discriminates is, pardon me, a silly question. To discriminate you need brain, thoughts, likes, dislikes, etc. Caste is a social construct created by human beings. It is inanimate. It can no more discriminate than a piece of stick or a stack of money you mentioned earlier. The question is what purpose does caste system serve?

In the case of money, it can be used for good as well as bad purposes. So there is some ambiguity. Considering the good it can do we learn to live with it. Similarly, a stick can be used for good or bad purposes. Therefore nobody is advocating we get rid of sticks. But, if there is something that is used only for bad purposes, no one will advocate its continued practice.

In the case of caste system, I have already shown how it is still being used for horrendously bad purposes. Now, unless you show, in an irrefutable manner -- the same standard applied for showing the bad -- that there are positive things that a human being can achieve only through the use of caste system that cannot be achieved by any other means, a reasonable person cannot escape but support the elimination of caste system.

You seem to think that I cannot answer this...

Shri Sapthajihva, you are right, I do think that, but I am open to be proved wrong, if you can

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

nara, saptha,

have you guys ever noticed how railway lines are laid out?

parallel forever, and ain't ment to meet.

 

[KRS]

Jathi as not inherently 'discriminatory' is not a correct argument.

Varna and it's degenerative form as Jathi came about during a time when such a social division meant sense according to the then prevailing culture/customs, which was accepted by all in the Hindu society (I am excluding the Dalits here, as it is not at all clear that they were ever accepted in to the Hindu society, it having started as a banishment of certain folks, classified as Chandala).

The logic to prove that the Jathi system is not valid today:

1. It is discriminatory in terms of certain people getting certain jobs (e.g., priests, or people who do crematory rights in Kasi)

2. It is discriminatory in terms of social intercourse as practiced

3. All people are created with equal inherent rights as human beings. Jathi system denies this.

4. It subverts the notion that we all belong to a nation first, to promote a common agenda benefitting all citizens. By promoting Jathi as a primary identity, it hurts the modern way of life and so is useless.

5. Jathis exist, by definition of seperate 'dharmas' to serve a united purpose in a society. When some Jathis stray away from a defined and accepted 'dharma' then Jathi loses it's foundation and so become useless. The only way, Jathi makes sense is when ALL Jathis do their SEPERATE dharmas and not encroach on others' 'dharmas', which is not practical nor possible in today's culture.

6. Jathi classifications came about for a well functioning society. It has lost it's relevance today and so can not be supported as a workable mecahnism in a changing culture/life. It is properly headed towards the dung heap of modern life.

Some may argue that the above points are just 'opinions' and not 'proof'. I will leave it up to the members to think and judge.

Having said all this, if one wants to follow a Jathi practice, without discriminating others, I have no say on that. That is up to them.

But, trying to prove that the system is good for today's life is not logical. It can only be supported by the edicts of Shastra and religion, not by a rational mind.

My two cents.

Regards,
KRS

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Tks Sri Kunjuppu.

I stand and rest assured on the reiteration.

Let our common good intentions guide us.

 

[RVR]

Any amount of shouting from the roof top will not will not eradicate the caste system. At the same time, we are hearing more intercaste marriages now then ever before. If we analyse the reasons, we may be able to conclude as follows:

1. Literacy, particularly women literacy.

2. Migration out of villages.

3. Women empowerment. If the ladies start earning on their own, they will decide their career on their own.

Caste system, whether good or bad, is an historical baggage which we are carrying. But if the above three are achieved, disparities will get removed to a great extent. I am sure more intercaste marriages will happen in such a scenario.

All the best

 

[[email protected]]

to RV ji sir your thoughts are good, but our Politicians never allow to eradicate this Jathi system because their Vote Bank is this Jathi. s.r.k.

 

[Nara]

Hello all,

When feet are held to the fire,
the urge to move on is great --
Read the following two articles if you care,
they are the same old songs too sour to the ear . ....

UN set to treat caste as human rights violation - India - The Times of India

How India flip-flopped over caste and race at the UN - Special Report - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara ji,

I read the above article and also the following sentences

The reference to India was unmistakable especially since Pillay had pressed the issue during her visit to New Delhi in March. Pillay not only asked India to address ``its own challenges nationally, but show leadership in combating caste-based discrimination globally''.

I don't know why India is opposing UN effort when it practices caste based discriminations within the country. Already there is enough law in India against untouchablity. I don't think any further law may required. Only implementation has to be made more effective.

However Governments both at centre and states practice caste based discrimination (I presume it is `reservation'). Once UN accepts Nepal's proposal, India may have to give up caste based discrimination. Otherwise why India should oppose such a policy decision from UN.

If you can throw more light on this, it will enlighten all of us.

All the best

 

[Nara]

However Governments both at centre and states practice caste based discrimination (I presume it is `reservation'). Once UN accepts Nepal's proposal, India may have to give up caste based discrimination. Otherwise why India should oppose such a policy decision from UN.

If you can throw more light on this, it will enlighten all of us.

Dear Shri Venkataramani Sir, Greetings!

I have no idea why India is opposing this, but I don't think it is for protecting affirmative action. I would be really surprised if the issue UNHRC is concerned about is the reservation system followed in India.

Cheers!

I wish people concerned about reservation system will look into (i) GOI statistics about the beneficiaries of reservation system, and (ii) the 100% reservation system that exists on Veda Patashalas and temples controlled by Brahmins.

 

[RVR]

Prof Naraji,

I wish people concerned about reservation system will look into (i) GOI statistics about the beneficiaries of reservation system, and (ii) the 100% reservation system that exists on Veda Patashalas and temples controlled by Brahmins.

I fully agree with your views that beneficiaries of reservation has to be evaluated. I have suspicion that reservation is cornered by a few elite among the backward and SC ST classes and majority of the people are not at all participating since they don't have required school education.

Already there is shortage of priests in village temples and there is no other alternative but to give up the posts to other communities. Already some village temples have started performing `Kumbabishekam' in Tamil (Kudaneerattu) inspite of some opposition from our community priests. Things will happen more in the future

All the best

 

[[email protected]]

to Rv ji, sir the reservation was utilize by elite,political,mascular power people enjoys it, the sc/st most of them not knowing their elegiblety for geting jobs,education.They require full time course to develop themself. s.r.k.

 

[vikrama]

caste indicating suffixes

Till some 50 years ago, people used to have caste suffixes in their names. Now they have almost been dropped. Let us look when the practice began. Since I do not know of other regions, I am confining myself to Tamilnadu.

In Sangam literature, we do not find any caste-indicating suffixes though there were caste divisions. In the period of great epics also, it was the same.

In the middle ages, the castes of Kambar, Pugazhendhi, Ottakoothar are not revealed by their names. In Peria Puranam, castes of the Sivanadiyars are indicated but their names do not reveal them.

In the Chola period inscriptions various castes are mentioned but there were rarely caste-indicating names except perhaps Bhattar, meaning Brahmins. It is not known whether all Brahmins were known as Bhattars or only those who were engaged in temple worship, both Saiva and Vaishnavite. Definitely there were no Iyers and Iyengars. Till as late as 16th century, there is no evidence to suggest the existence of such suffixes.

This leads me to hypothesize that the custom of having caste suffixes came into vogue only during British rule. Perhaps the English traders would have wanted the locals to have surnames like them.

At first it was simple caste indicators like Iyyan, Chetty, Mudali etc. (and not Iyyar, Chettiar, Mudaliar etc.) The stories written in the 19th century show only such names. I had a brass vessel five generations old. (It was disposed two years ago.) The name of my grandfather’s grandfather, who lived in the middle of the 19th century, was engraved in it as Venkatasubbu Iyyan. Till as late as 1970, the NBs of my native village near Mannargudi, and its surroundings referred to Bs as Iyyan without meaning any disrespect. Perhaps they continue to do so even now.

So, I think that the caste suffix started during the early period of British rule and the honorific ‘ar’ got suffixed in the 20th century. Perhaps the rulers encouraged this as a part of their divide and rule policy.

I request the members to throw more light on it.

 

[RVR]

Shri Vikrama ji,

Caste names were removed in the last fifty or sixty years after Dravidian movement started growing. MGR during his rule removed caste names even from streets and roads.

During Azhwar/Nayanmar period castes were there but intercaste marriages were prevalent. Sambandar refused to marry a Chettiar girl in Mylapore since he considered her as his daughter. Sundarar has married Paravai Nachiar and Sangili Nachiar belonging to other communities. But intercaste marriages were not prevalent subsequently. How it changed? Why it changed? If we find answers for the above questions, it will be helpful.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

In the Chola period inscriptions various castes are mentioned but there were rarely caste-indicating names except perhaps Bhattar, meaning Brahmins. It is not known whether all Brahmins were known as Bhattars or only those who were engaged in temple worship, both Saiva and Vaishnavite. Definitely there were no Iyers and Iyengars. Till as late as 16th century, there is no evidence to suggest the existence of such suffixes.

Some inputs on the usage of 'Bhattar':

This is a paper on the Sarasvati Hieroglyph Dictionary (some excerpts taken from the vol 4 of the quinter: Indus Script encodes mleccha speech): www.scribd.com/doc/2409263/dictionary1

In page 4 and 5, it mentions "Bhat.a" (or Bhata) as a term referring to a soldier, warrior, hero or brave man. While it also mentions on the usage referring to a brahman, it also mentions that in the Mahabharat, 'Bhata' was used to mean a hired soldier.

Perhaps 'bhat' as a soldier does hold water even in present day understanding. Amongst the rajus of andhra, there is a grouping called bhatrajus; who i hear were considered soldiers or foot soldiers specialized in certain types of combat. And it looks like the meaning is similar to the Bunta or Bunt (which also supposedly comes from bhata) as they too were considered specialized soilders (in telugu, the word 'bunt' is sometimes colloquially used to mean a trusted or loyal person...perhaps some telugu and tulu speaking folks were allies in some wars?).

The Sanskrit-English dictionary by Theodor Benfey (pg 641) provides the following meaning:

1) 'Bhata' as
i) a soilder
ii) an outcaste of a particular tribe
iii) a goblin
iv) one's own soldier.

2) 'Bhatta' as a dialectical form based on 'bharta' and meaning a philosopher, a learned man or an authority or a very learned man or a distinguished warrior.

Regarding the usage of 'Iyyan', perhaps it was used as a term for any person of respectable standing or position (??).
The following link http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\drav\sdret&first=61 on South Dravidian etymology provides Tamil meaning as: father, sage, priest, teacher, brahman, superior person, master, king.

PS:
Sri Vikrama ji, i have been really enjoying your posts, esp loved the one you wrote in tamil on rigved verses (ofcourse i had to depend on transliteration software ). Hope to see more from you. Thankyou sir.

Just wanted to add:
Please continue to provide english translation as well, otherwise half-baked ppl like me who depend on transliteration can get the whole thing wrong if not read / understood in the proper context Thankyou.

 

[RVR]

The term `Bhattar' to denote Tamil Brahmins is still prevalent in Kerala. Since Kerala is erstwhile Chera Nadu, the term may have used to call Brahmins those days also. The origin of Malayalam is only 700 years and carries lot of pure Tamil words which are not used in Tamilnadu now.

Calling even God singularly is very much prevalent. Both Azhwars and Nayanmars are addressing God in singular names.(Avan, Evan like that). The term ayyan would have similar terminology used in earlier days. But now things have changed using last letter `r' instead of `n'.