Dear sundararajan sir, please permit me to submit to you, in these days of not just computer technology but advancements in many other fields such as science, technology, anthropology, sociology, political science, etc., it is indeed regretful that people of all castes take their caste differences seriously, not just Vadakalai and Thenkalai.vadakali and thenkalai differences still persist in thses days of computer rechnology. They affewct the relationships and matrimonial alliances.
Dear sundararajan sir, please permit me to submit to you, in these days of not just computer technology but advancements in many other fields such as science, technology, anthropology, sociology, political science, etc., it is indeed regretful that people of all castes take their caste differences seriously, not just Vadakalai and Thenkalai.
Govinda, your smile not withstanding, I don't understand what your trying to say or joke about.We didnt have problem either while seeking, but we finally ended up with vadakalais
Alright, would you care to elucidate what these might be? In what way do you think Swami Sri Desikan is the true courier of what Bagavat Ramanuja advocated, which Ramanuja never called Visihtadvaita, more than the acharyas of the present day Thenkalai SVs?But for those, whose daily routine/thinking/living (other than office) are based on the Philosophical understanding of Vishishtadvaita [esp. that of Sri Ramanuja/Swamy Desikan], such differences would make a difference.
What are you trying to say, the male Thenkalais are adamant but the male Vadakalis are not? What do you think is the difference between Thenkalais and Vadakalais with respect to saranagathi, aka Bara Nyasam? Do you know that Thenkalais believe in saranagathi just as much as the vadakalais, if not more? Thenkalais believe in what is called marjara nyaya, one which asserts that once you perform saranagathi, you must act like a juvenile cat totally dependent on the grace of the parent cat, i.e. Sriman Narayana?So, Vadakalais would choose thenkalais as brides only, as the latter are adamant and are more like advaitins, regarding certain understanding/practices. Now, they are more acceptable of Swamy Desikan's works, but still wouldn't take samskArAs like Bhara-nyasam (Surrender) from Acharyas.
Jai SiyaRaam
Sankeertana NARAyana shabdha matram vimukta dukha sukhino bhavantu
jaisiyaraam, I do know a thing or two about SV, but certainly not "tremendous".....You have tremendous knowledge in SV philosophies/philosophers so can you please elaborate the differences between Vadakalis and Thenkalais for our benefit ? please...
No. | Concept | Vadakalai | Thenkalai |
1. | Who is supreme Ishwara? | Sriman Narayana and Mahalakshmi | Only Sriman Narayana, Mahalakshmi is a jeevatma |
2. | Who can grant mohsham? | Sriman Narayana and/or Mahalakshmi can grant moksham | Only Sriman Narayana can grant moksham |
3. | What is the role of Mahalakshmi? | She acts as recommending agency (purushakaratvam) as well as moksham granting agency. She also joins Sriman Narayana as enjoyer of muktas service (bhokta) | She only acts as recommending agency (purushakaratvam) and be bhokta along with Sriman Narayana. |
4. | What is the means (upaya) for moksham? | Bhakti Yoga or Prapatti (total and unconditional surrender) | Only Prapatti |
5. | What is prapatti? | A separate ritual to be performed with the necessary prerequisites | Just declaring oneself to be a Vaishnava via Panca Samskaram is prapatti. |
6. | Nitya Karma | Must be performed by all, including sanyasees | Need not be performed by prapannas, but must do anyway to set an example for others. |
7. | What about the papa karma of prapannas (ones who have performed prapatti)? | Due to his unlimited compassion Sriman Narayana will erase the papa of prapannas? | The lord actually loves to remove the sins of prapannas like a cow licks the impurities off of her calf, and like a lover enjoys the impurities in the body of the loved |
8. | Acharya paramparai | Same as Thenkalai up until Ramanuja. The preeminent acharya after that is Swami Sri Desikan | Same as Vadakalai up until Ramanuja. The preeminent acharya after that is Swami Manavala Mamunigal |
No. | Concept | Vadakalai | Thenkalai |
1. | Namam | U shaped with turmeric srichoornam in yellow color | Y shaped with turmeric srichoornam in red color |
2. | Prostration | Four times | Strictly one time |
3. | Madisar | Different from smarta | Similar to smarta |
4. | Serving food | Rice and ghee first, everything else after that | Everything first, then rice and ghee |
Dear jaisiyaraam, During Bhagavat Ramanuja's time the SV population grew by leaps and bounds. To meet the needs of SVs and to attract as many more people to the SV fold, Ramanuja established 74 simhasanapathis who were charged with the propagation of the SV brand of theism. This is the primary reason for acharya parampara branching out after Ramanuja....Why did the acharya paramparai change/differ?
Yes! This is the most interesting aspect of the theistic doctrine of SV, it is so very similar to the Veera Saiva of Basavanna aka Lingayat. However, the most important difference is, SVs are orthodox followers of Brahminism, i.e. they accept the supremacy of Vedas and Dharmashasthras. In contrast, Basavanna rejected both the Vedas and the Dharmashasthras. But they both advocate total and unconditional surrender to their supreme lord, Sriman Narayana for SV, and Shiva for Lingayat.Also, are there any groups/followers of Lord Siva similar to SVs?
[2] All Vedantic doctrines are centered around Sriman Narayana in one form or another, A, VA, D, and Gaudiya.
Dear sir, please correct me if I am wrong, but what I am led to believe is their Saguna Brahman is Narayana. Of course, in the case of Advaitam this question is kind of moot because all these are mitya, and even in this so called relative reality everything is just a reflection of Param. So Shiva, Narayana, Vinayaka, etc., etc., are all one and the same.Shri Nara,
Though Sankara starts some of his bhashyas with an invocation to Narayana (and not to Vinayaka - may be noted) I do not think Advaita relates itself to Narayana or Siva. Is my notion right?
What do you think is the difference between Thenkalais and Vadakalais with respect to saranagathi, aka Bara Nyasam? Do you know that Thenkalais believe in saranagathi just as much as the vadakalais, if not more?
Thenkalais believe in what is called marjara nyaya, one which asserts that once you perform saranagathi, you must act like a juvenile cat totally dependent on the grace of the parent cat, i.e. Sriman Narayana?
Govinda, please, the important ideological differences between Vadakalis and Thenkalais are quite arcane to make any difference to a male or female of either kalai to be important in making decisions on alliances. The only reason kalai is important in such decisions is ignorance and caste supremacy, just like what makes any icm intolerable to any castist, B or NB.
Dear sir, please correct me if I am wrong, but what I am led to believe is their Saguna Brahman is Narayana. Of course, in the case of Advaitam this question is kind of moot because all these are mitya, and even in this so called relative reality everything is just a reflection of Param. So Shiva, Narayana, Vinayaka, etc., etc., are all one and the same.
Having said that, what I was alluding to was what you have stated also, i.e., for Sankaracharaiyars, Narayana is the supreme saguna brhman and contemplating on him will elevate one to jeevan mukta state. This is what I have heard in Kalakshepams I have attended given by SV acharyas.
Cheers!
Dear Sangom sir, as I said earlier, this is what I heard from SV acharyas, they claimed Adi Sankara starts out with salutations to Narayana, and even the present day Sankaracharyas use "Narayana smriti" as their insignia when writing Sri Mukham etc. As you say, these may not amount to identifying their Ishwara (saguna brhman) with Narayana, I agree.... I do not know whether Sankara has zeroed in on Narayana as the mf (most favoured) iswara.