Technically the same Atma pervades everyone/everything....so everyone is of the same value..it is just that some have better marketing skills and project themselves as valuable!
The existence of evil is a classic argument against an all-powerful God. If we believe in an all pervading Paramatma, we should also believe that Raavan was created by him for a reason. Biswa, How did Ravana suddenly got created? Do you mean the Delhi rapists were created by God? That looks like the idea of SATAN
The existence of evil is a classic argument against an all-powerful God.
If we believe in an all pervading Paramatma, we should also believe that Raavan was created by him for a reason.
The reason for the existence of evil is to draw a stark contrast with the good. God has decided to leave some challenging puzzles for his creations.
Acc. to your logic, both the offenders and the victims are of same value, but different just in their skills - former with sex or crime skills (part of brain) and latter with the lack of physical skills or confidence skills! So, shouldn't we treat them equally?
Then, why do the justice/law system, give punishments to the offenders becos they committed voluntary criminal acts.
Now explain, what do you mean by same value? or same Atma?
bigthanks . I got educated. pl elaborate ashta bhedas. I appreciate your scholarshipMy understanding of the difference between Vadakalai and Thenkalai is from reading articles in internet sources. May not be adequate for scholarly discussions.
The differences are based on doctrinal interpretations. "The Vadakalai follow the doctrines of Vedanta Desika and Ramanuja, while the Thenkalai follow the doctrines of Manavalamamunigal and Ramanuja".
Vadakalais emphasize the need of Some positive gesture of the individual soul (Jeevathma) to deserve the grace of God and attain moksa. the Vadakalai holds that man has to win god's grace through his efforts and he has to cling on to god, like an infant monkey clinging on to its mother. Which is called "markata nyaya"
Tenkalais emphasize the greatness and overwhelming grace of the Lord to "save His own",He saves the soul on His own initiative; and the devotee should not try to force Him. Lord's grace is spontaneous and He can grant moksa to anyone He wishes.The Thenkalai holds that devotion is all that is necessary and that god will on his own initiative carry the devotee to salvation, like a cat carrying a kitten, which is called "marjara nyaya".
There are about 18 such points of differences (ashtadasa bhedas) with varying degrees of insignificance based purely on interpretation of scholars.
In fact, most people know only this difference regarding the application of the caste marks in the form of 'U' by the Vadakalai and 'Y' by the Thenkalai sects. This is an example of how over- enthusiastic fanatics could blow up insignificant and inconsequential distinctions to abnormal proportions to the level of transfering to animate and inanimate things and taking the dispute to highest Courts of Law.
Dear Shri Nara,
Apart from the doctrinal differences between the two "kalais", thereis a rather widespread view that one of the two Kalais represents, people fromthe lower castes who converted to vaishnavism as also brahmin status whereasthe other kalai represents original (smartha) brahmins who converted tovaishnavism and visishtadvaita. I have heard this from one Iyengar sourceitself. Though you had, on an earlier occasion, rebutted the legend of Ramanujaclimbing the gopuram and calling upon all and sundry to convert, etc., my pointis, is there any possibility of lower castes having gained acceptance into thevaishnavite brahmin group?
Looking at the differences even now practised among christians, muslims etc.,based on pre-conversion caste status, it looks to me that the reason for suchdeep-rooted differences between the two "kalais" could not have beensimple philosophical disputes but has to be one of caste-based prejudices.
Lets get one thing clear - Never in history has there been a caste conversion & no King has ever ordered such conversions!! Brahmin control over the Kings were total, so our ancestors maintained complete exclusivity.
Infact as and when Brahmins moved away to other religions, they were not identified with Brahmins there after. For eg. Lingayats in Karnataka were orginally Brahmins, & when they moved away/started following Basavanna, they were no longer identified as Brahmins. But you can see many Lingayats will say they were originally Brahmins.
So if you read my earlier posts – Brahmins are a separate race – mix of Romans + Greeks + Jews+ Dravidians. The Alexander soldiers took the local dravidians mostly the dravidian royalty as their wives. After the initial intermix, the Brahmins have maintained absolute exclusivity to this day. Because they took the dravidians as local wives, you will find approx 50% fair skinned & 50% Brown skinned in all Brahmin sects & sub sects.
So how did theThankalais & Vadakalais orignate. There were 3 migrations of Brahmins from Karnataka – Trojan Kingdoms – Kingdom of Ravana & Kauravas !
First (small) migration happened prior to the Ramayana war from the Trojan empire to Tamil Nadu Kingdoms & they were performing the rituals, poojas working for these Kings.
Second (Major) migration happened after the Ramayana war, so Brahmins from Troy/Lanka migrated to Narasimhavarman’s kingdom & settled in Kanchi. Kanchi - capital of Narasimhavarman kingdom is also known as Brahmeespuram & controlled all Vedic studies, philosophyetc.. in all through to this day !
Third (Major) migration happened after the Mahabharata war from the Karnatic (Kauravas/Karna) Kingdom to the Pandian King. These Brahmins carried the Carnatic music with them.
Thats why - you will see some Brahmin families with carnatic music and some only restrict to study of Vedas !!
Some of the people from this first migration aligned with their Kings & they started exclusively identifying with Narasimha – Vishnu God – these are theThenkalais & hence they control a large portion of the temples.
After the Second/ third migration, some of the Brahmins who embraced Vaishavism along with Ramanujam who was an Iyer Vadama himself were called “Vadakalais”!
This came up in an earlier discussion with Brahmins worshipping Madura Kali Temple at Sirivachur where the priests are NBs but you find a lot of madisar wearing Brahmins coming here. Not sure if people know that ShankaraCharya Periaval’s family diety is Sirivachur MaduraKaliamman temple !!. Kannagi before she burns down Madurai, tells – spare the brahmins, innocents ... so the brahmins who were spared by Kannagi worship her to this day. The NB priests are the descendants of the Sherperd family where Kannagi & Kovalan stayed prior to the incident.
So again there was/is never any converts into Brahmins. In short, the Brahmin exclusivity was so high, and even if some of the NBs had converted to Brahmins (I dont agree this ever happened becos there are no written inscriptions nor any Sanskrit texts talking about such conversions, but lets assume based on others assertion) during Ramanujam's time, they were NO longer identified as Brahmins after Ramanujam similar to what happened after Basavanna.
So to me, it has to be a solid proof. It is simply not possible in ancient times for NB’s to be converted to be Brahmins let alone beTemple priests. Pl note, Brahmins had enormous traditions, Vedic studies, philosophical leanings, etc.. in the ancient times, it was much more strict for us Brahmins !!. so tell me how can a NB convert into a Brahmin in those days ?
Thenkalais control many of the Vishnu temples & if they were not Brahmins, it will be impossible for them to hold it so long.
Hi Renuka - I can understand your views. But unless we have a written inscription or Sanskrit text talking about this, we cannot assume that they are converts. Cheers,
Secondly, you give a refreshing view contrary to what many veterans and fiercebrahminists in this forum have been opposing all these years and which is myview also, viz.,
Brahmin control over the Kings were total, so ourancestors maintained complete exclusivity.
If only you can provide some convincing supportingreferences for both these statements, it would be very nice.
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