The validity of Manu/Manava dharma.

[Prakash Sundaramoorthy]

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Namaskaram.
This may sound like a fundamental question, I apologize if that's the case. I find that some of the practice from the Manu scriptures seems obsolete or impractical with our modern lifestyle. I'm curious to know what are your thoughts on the validity of Manu shastra.

Nandri.

Prakash Sundaramoorthy

 

[sarang]

Cho has devoted a full chapter I thing on manu in his 'hindu maha samudram'. He gives a 'balanced and modern' view on manu. I don't have the book. That will be a good starting point for discussion.

 

[biswa]

No doubt, just like many parts of the Bible and Koran are obsolete or any other thousand year old treatise is obsolete. I for one think that the caste system is obsolete. Anything specific in your mind?

 

[renuka]

Namaskaram.
This may sound like a fundamental question, I apologize if that's the case. I find that some of the practice from the Manu scriptures seems obsolete or impractical with our modern lifestyle. I'm curious to know what are your thoughts on the validity of Manu shastra.

Nandri.

Prakash Sundaramoorthy

Dear sir,

Welcome to Forum.

In my opinion I feel at present times we have to be practical in life.
To a certain extent some text need to be read with a pinch of salt too.

We are governed these days by the law of the country which might differ from country to country.
I think we are not really going to attend a court under a banyan tree Natamai style anymore and be banished for being caught in the coconut or sugar cane grove doing something undesirable.

We have to remember that Law changes with time and is oriented to time,place and person.
For example even the death sentence is no more practiced in some countries.

So my opinion is just do not break any law as to land in jail and on a personal basis just use Bhagavad Geeta as a guide in life.

BG is the one magical text which suits any time, place and person.

You see BG came from Lord Krishna and not some human being so better use that as a guide.

 

[samarapungavan]

Shri Prakash,


According to the shAstras Parasara smriti is to be followed in Kali age.The following is from Parasara smriti:
The same occurs in YAgyavalkya smriti also.


अन्ये कृतयुगे धर्मास्त्रेतायां द्वापरे युगे
अन्ये कलि युगे नृणां युगरुपनुसारत:

In conformity to the character of the age the rules of dharma differ
From age to age.The rules of krita yuga differ from the rules of treat yuga.
Similarly the rules for dwApara and Kali are different.

तप: परं कृतयुगे त्रेतायां ज्ञानमुच्यते
द्वापरे यज्यमेवाहु: धानमेव कलौयुगे

Tapas is ordained for Krita yuga, knowledge in Treta yuga, performance of Yagyas in DwApara and charity alone in Kali yuga.
कृते तु मानवा धर्मास्त्रेतायां गौतमा: स्मृता:
द्वापरे शान्ग्कलिखिता: कलौ पराशरा: स्मृता:
Manu smriti is suited for Krita yuga, the one by Gautama rishi for Treta yuga
Shankalikhita smriti for DwApara and Parashara smriti for Kali age.

 

[biswa]

Are we even sure that Manu smriti was written only by one person and that his name was Manu? Most historical works are written and transcribed by a group of people who often insert their interpretation.

 

[sarang]

Manu smruti authored by manu, that is the traditional orthodox view. it is possible that interpolation, addition, regional variations - are all possible. Same can be said of veda vyasa, krishna, and almost of everyone else. We have several shades and flavours of the congress party, claimants, aims and policies - it is difficult to establish conclusive truth.

I believe in carrying the traditional version and not lose it, even though multiple modern interpretations based on new partial evidence or knowledge gained. The modern interpretations do have a short shelf life and get modified or rejected based on new found archaeological or literary evidences or say DNA studies. So tradition 'sruti - passed on by generations - knowledge must be conserved, preserved and must be used as a reference.

Sant tulsidas has made a reference to the destruction of the ram temple in ayodhya in one of his dohas - this reference is buried in the ayodhya verdict.

Our ancestors never bothered about copyrights and freezing of literary works; people were free to learn, copy and propagate religious lit and codes. It is accepted that smritis are location and time dependent and rules can be changed as long as they do not contradict the vedas.

We must do what is prescribed in vedas.
We must not do what is prohibited by the vedas.
When not explicitly stated, we must take the help of itihasa, puranas and acharyas, local customs, and prevailing practices.

 

[sarang]

Easy. The word caste, which is foreign origin, is to be removed from the constitution, government forms and documents, and statutes. That will immediately ensure that nobody gets privileges or preferential treatment, or veto powers.

Our system of varna, jati, kulam is quite different from the caste system we are brain washed to accept.

No doubt, just like many parts of the Bible and Koran are obsolete or any other thousand year old treatise is obsolete. I for one think that the caste system is obsolete. Anything specific in your mind?

 

[mkrishna100]

I have not read Manu Smriti and hence do not know how much of it is relevant in today's context . But yesterday I found the following piece on Manusmriti from the book "Mind its Mysteries and Control" by Swami Sivananda pg.201 .

The 10 Lakshanas of Dharma according to Mano .

Patience ,forgiveness,control of mind , non-stealing ,external and internal purity ,control of Indriyas ,Knowledge of Sastras ,knowledge of Atman , truthfulness and absence of anger are the ten Lakshanas of Dharma according to Manu

I feel this is still relevant in today's context for those who desire to live a Dharma and the above quote from Manusmrii can be considered to the essence of Manusmriti .

 

[sarang]

What manu says about brahmins is not acceptable to modernists, and secularists.

'Woman has no freedom' is touted as anti feminist, but 'where woman is not honoured and respected and looked after lakshmi will not stay and the man will incur sin' is ignored.

If all the clauses of indian penal code (a masala of hindu, british and other laws), all of us will be behind bars, many non-bailable.

Some members of our forum can be put behind bars under 'brahmin hate' and brahmin insult' subsections.

jati per solli thiturathu is an offence.

 

[prasad1]

Manu smruti authored by manu, that is the traditional orthodox view. it is possible that interpolation, addition, regional variations - are all possible. Same can be said of veda vyasa, krishna, and almost of everyone else. We have several shades and flavours of the congress party, claimants, aims and policies - it is difficult to establish conclusive truth.

I believe in carrying the traditional version and not lose it, even though multiple modern interpretations based on new partial evidence or knowledge gained. The modern interpretations do have a short shelf life and get modified or rejected based on new found archaeological or literary evidences or say DNA studies. So tradition 'sruti - passed on by generations - knowledge must be conserved, preserved and must be used as a reference.

Sant tulsidas has made a reference to the destruction of the ram temple in ayodhya in one of his dohas - this reference is buried in the ayodhya verdict.

Our ancestors never bothered about copyrights and freezing of literary works; people were free to learn, copy and propagate religious lit and codes. It is accepted that smritis are location and time dependent and rules can be changed as long as they do not contradict the vedas.

We must do what is prescribed in vedas.
We must not do what is prohibited by the vedas.
When not explicitly stated, we must take the help of itihasa, puranas and acharyas, local customs, and prevailing practices.

Mr. Sarang,
The first paragraph is well written and factual.
The last para is your opinion and off the mark.

I do not think any one among us is an expert in Veda.
There are things written in vedas, that run contrary to modern world.
Mr. Sangom may know more about this than I.
I was doing some research on Rig veda, and came across all sorts of Animal sacrifices, it might have been accepted practice, but is abhorrent now.

Rig Veda Book 1, Chapter 162:

In a reference to the sacrifice of a goat it says (1.162.2) “The dappled goat goes straight to heaven, bleating to the place dear to Indra and to Pusan.”

So let us not elevate veda to the level where you can not question it.

 

[sarang]

there are several options:
1. become a muslim or a christian
2. ask one's acharya or guru or a vedic scholar, how to interpret and what and how to follow.
3. read dharma sastras or take reference from family traditions.

sanatana dharmists and all sections of hindu society accept 'veda vakku'. of course the faithless are free to accept, believe or reject; there will be no fatwa on the heads of non-believers or doubting thomases.

the last para is not my opinion.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

when shastra says women has no freedom. it can be interpreted in 2 ways

1) Vedantic way (I'm not inclined to elaborate on this.) simply put unenlightened persons (men/women and the rest of the beings ) are termed as women since they are bound.

2) In Loukika way - Women are bound by "likes and dislikes" 8 times more than men (scripture - shiva maha puranam) hence this statement "women has no freedom".

 

[Prakash Sundaramoorthy]

Namaskaram - my sincere thanks to all - insightful.My intention to post on the validity of the Manu shastra was stirred by the practise of the 16(or 12?)Samskaras. My humble perspective:

if Manusmiti was written for people who lived in ancient times, these Samskaras should be obsolete. Is it possible that we are simply imbibed with it? Thank you.

Om Tat Sat,
Prakash Sundaramoorthy

 

[renuka]

Mr. Sarang,
The first paragraph is well written and factual.
The last para is your opinion and off the mark.

I do not think any one among us is an expert in Veda.
There are things written in vedas, that run contrary to modern world.
Mr. Sangom may know more about this than I.
I was doing some research on Rig veda, and came across all sorts of Animal sacrifices, it might have been accepted practice, but is abhorrent now.


So let us not elevate veda to the level where you can not question it.

Dear Prasad,

In fact Mandala 1 Shukta 162 is all about animal sacrifice but I feel may be we should not take the word animal literally.

It could have a deeper meaning.

If I am not mistaken Swami Dayanand Saraswati has given the spiritual translation cos Vedic Sanskrit is different from Non Vedic Sanskrit in the meanings.
Even the rules of grammar differ to a certain extent.

 

[prasad1]

there are several options:
1. become a muslim or a christian
2. ask one's acharya or guru or a vedic scholar, how to interpret and what and how to follow.
3. read dharma sastras or take reference from family traditions.

sanatana dharmists and all sections of hindu society accept 'veda vakku'. of course the faithless are free to accept, believe or reject; there will be no fatwa on the heads of non-believers or doubting thomases.

the last para is not my opinion.

Mr. Sarang,
You have very narrow view on the limited knowledge you have. You are entitled to it.
I would be careful before endorsing something you know very little. Hinduism is not dogmatic and accepts questions. Only person who is afraid of question is ignorant and is not willing to do the research.

If you accept that a book may it be Quran, Bible, or veda is word of God and can be changed , or must be accepted without modification you set yourself for failure. The younger generation is going to ask you for explanation and you have none.
Conversion is accepting failure. Just because you can not explain, you ask them to convert is your failure.

I have asked acharyas and they all explain different sayings with their version. But they all also say that everything written in vedas can not be accepted verbatim.

There you go with traditions. Like Mr. Brahin asked in different thread traditions can be created in many ways. If your understanding of tradition explained to you by your parent was misunderstood, you are going to convey a wrong tradition.

 

[prasad1]

Namaskaram - my sincere thanks to all - insightful.My intention to post on the validity of the Manu shastra was stirred by the practise of the 16(or 12?)Samskaras. My humble perspective:

if Manusmiti was written for people who lived in ancient times, these Samskaras should be obsolete. Is it possible that we are simply imbibed with it? Thank you.

Om Tat Sat,
Prakash Sundaramoorthy

Mr. Prakash,
I fully agree with your view.
At the same time we can salvage what ever part is accepted as a society. Indian constitution is based to an extent on Manu smrithi.

 

[mkrishna100]

If you accept that a book may it be Quran, Bible, or veda is word of God and can be changed , or must be accepted without modification you set yourself for failure. The younger generation is going to ask you for explanation and you have none.

Mr.Prasad

With regard to Vedas there is a difference in attitude between the Traditional people and Research People .
Traditional people accept the words of Vedas as the Truth while a Research Scholar questions everything and does not consider anything as absolute truth .

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

the objective of shruti and smrithis are too noble and beyond the levels of human intellegence .

they are like our parents, we depend on them not they depend on us.

we are like blind man we need a man with vision to guide us.

ofcourse we have the choice to follow or not to follow . we don't have the capacity to question the intelligence of our parentss.
to give equal status to bible and quran with VEDAS is ultimate foolishness .

 

[sarang]

I have told you hundred times not make personal comments, still you do and never learn. I know the limitations of a one with former farmer president's farm produce sized wit; so it is a waste of time and words to stop you. If you can comment about the issues without addresses, you will be doing a creditable job. All, including krishna to today's dayananda saraswati or srisri ravishankar have held the view that vedas are 'apaurasheya'. Of course no one will hurt you if you say to the contrary, but say that quran is not rue in some places and it has false statements in a muslim assembly and face the music.

Mr. Sarang,
You have very narrow view on the limited knowledge you have. You are entitled to it.
I would be careful before endorsing something you know very little. Hinduism is not dogmatic and accepts questions. Only person who is afraid of question is ignorant and is not willing to do the research.

If you accept that a book may it be Quran, Bible, or veda is word of God and can be changed , or must be accepted without modification you set yourself for failure. The younger generation is going to ask you for explanation and you have none.
Conversion is accepting failure. Just because you can not explain, you ask them to convert is your failure.

I have asked acharyas and they all explain different sayings with their version. But they all also say that everything written in vedas can not be accepted verbatim.

There you go with traditions. Like Mr. Brahin asked in different thread traditions can be created in many ways. If your understanding of tradition explained to you by your parent was misunderstood, you are going to convey a wrong tradition.

 

[Prakash Sundaramoorthy]

Namaskaram all - Hope I'm not flogging a dead horse. but my question remains unanswered . Sorry to rehash but here it is again:

My intention to post on the validity of the Manu shastra was stirred by the practice of the 16(or 12?)Samskaras. My humble perspective: if Manusmiti was written for people who lived in ancient times, these Samskaras should be obsolete. Is it possible that we are simply imbibed with it? Thank you.

Om Tat Sat,
Prakash Sundaramoorthy

 

[prasad1]

Namaskaram all - Hope I'm not flogging a dead horse. but my question remains unanswered . Sorry to rehash but here it is again:

My intention to post on the validity of the Manu shastra was stirred by the practice of the 16(or 12?)Samskaras. My humble perspective: if Manusmiti was written for people who lived in ancient times, these Samskaras should be obsolete. Is it possible that we are simply imbibed with it? Thank you.

Om Tat Sat,
Prakash Sundaramoorthy

We had a healthy discussion, but you still post the same opinion again.