• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Stephen Hawking: ‘There is no heaven’

Status
Not open for further replies.
“The question is: is the way the universe began chosen by God for reasons we can’t understand, or was it determined by a law of science? I believe the second,” he said. “If you like, you can call the laws of science ‘God’, but it wouldn’t be a personal God that you could meet, and ask questions.”

The above is what Hawking says. He just says that laws of Science can be taken as God if at all you want a God. Too much should not be read into it. Certainly he doesn't use the word God in its divine sense.

He goes on to say,

“I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail,” he added. “There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.”

To say that his concept of God is in alignment with vedic vision is stretching one's imagination too far.
 
Very interesting thread. Thanks Sarangam for starting the fire! I am not erudite like the people here. However I humbly submit that heaven and earth are real. We feel it momentarily from time to time. I do not believe they exist outside our mind!
As for creation, that posits creating something out of nothing. Big Bang postulates singularity which is a paradox. Multiverses always existed and have and will go through many iterations. It is recursive.

I am of the opinion that all things in this multiverse are endowed with Shakti and intelligence in different ways. Everything in this multiverse strives to improve its conditions and at times jumps to the next level - a series of evolutions to successive stages. Universe expands through preferences, experiences and experiments.

Finally please pardon me for asking thus: "Who created whom?"
 
Y-Sir -

Let me share my view on religions in general.

Religions have created more wars than any other order in human history in my view though I am not a historian. Even today most of the conflicts arise out of religious differences.

This is because most religious traditions, especially the biblical ones and many of of Hindu sub-traditions base their practices on 'faith'. That word means - suspend reasons! So it is but natural if two people who have non-verifiable belief system can end up in conflict especially if the topic is about a concept called God and the stakes are high (hell or heaven whatever they may be).

Hindu religion is unlike any others. There are no books (no one has Vedas in their home, some may have Gita but most do not understand a reconciled view of all the chapters). There is no one form of worship. There are many leaders and practices and no one of authority (like Pope for example). There is no concept of conversion and no one can deny if someone says they are a Hindu (and I know a few Americans who are Sannyasis or on their path to Sannyasy and they are respected like anyone else by Hindu community in America). So it is not really an organized religion.

Even in practices such as Pooja one can do ‘substitutions’ of rice for Gold! There are also many practices that are not conformant to Vedic ideas because no one knows them. Even the priests that chant some vedic verses do a lot of ‘blah blah’ without fully understanding the meanings in many cases. People share bribes with the ‘Lord’ 
icon7.png
This can only happen in India! The greatest thing is that like Judaism it is a gentle religion with no requirement to convert others. So I will not lump Hinduism with other religion – it is in its own category!

The Vedas which is supposed to form the basis for many Hindu traditions teach (not preach) that Isvara ( purposely I am not using the word God) is to be understood and not believed. The traditions of temples etc. are to aid in that path to understanding. Many are not into learning the concepts and are served well by stories in the Purana which all started out with a message but have been embellished (which make them very interesting). So the story about Brahma , Vishnu etc like you cite is taken as true by common people. Often the significance of a story is lost or never learnt and the stories has evolved over the years. These stories cannot be compared with reading a Bible for example.

I was talking about the concept of Brahman and not the Puranic God in the form of creator Brahma.

Anyway you are right that the average person approaches the practices ‘as a belief system’ without fully understanding the underlying concepts and that may be fine if the concepts are grounded in truth that can be understood.

A religious person is expected to be ethical and may not be. An ethical person need not conform to any religion (traditions) and that is completely fine in the vision of vedas. A sannyasi is free from doing any religious rituals and focus only on learning (and of course to be ethical in how they deal with other beings including human beings).

The foundation of Sanathana Dharma and views of Upanishads about what is true are universal and applies to all beings. It does not belong to Hindus any more than gravitational laws do not belong to the country Newton was born. Therefore I will not lump vedic knowledge with the broad practices of Hinduism. The approach of Upanishads is scientific but the subject matter is beyond the scope of Science (and this is a huge topic).

Though my PhD in physics is dated, I can say that what Hawking taught or has written is not in opposition to the vision of Vedas. Once again in the vedic vision concept of creation does not exist - only manifestation, unmanifestation cycles. The possible and but unprovable existance of multiverses (parallel universes) do not contradict the vision of vedanta.

The best students of Vedanta tend to be in my experience from the religion (another belief system) of Atheism! Hope you will explore that as an Atheist!

Regards,

I too am a student of Physics. I wanted to do a PhD in nuclear physics but luckily the world was saved from a disaster!
I like this explanation tks! I noticed the distinction between Brhman and Brahma. I think I understand Brhman but can someone give me a clear definition of it? I believe I have graduated out of religion into spirituality and I quite like Adhvaitha.

Talking about Hinduism, this is my pet theory. I think of it like a pyramid - the base is tribal worship and customs; the mid-part is idol worship and related customs; the apex is vedhic worship and philosophy. When you get to the top of the pyramid and see the world-view, all differences disappear and merge into one picture. I believe in "Ta tvam asi"!
 
“The question is: is the way the universe began chosen by God for reasons we can’t understand, or was it determined by a law of science? I believe the second,” he said. “If you like, you can call the laws of science ‘God’, but it wouldn’t be a personal God that you could meet, and ask questions.”

The above is what Hawking says. He just says that laws of Science can be taken as God if at all you want a God. Too much should not be read into it. Certainly he doesn't use the word God in its divine sense.

He goes on to say,

“I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail,” he added. “There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.”

To say that his concept of God is in alignment with vedic vision is stretching one's imagination too far.

Sri Sravana - I assume you are making this statement based on your judgement and not asking a question, hence I am not responding

Regards
 
Y-Sir -

Let me share my view on religions in general.

Religions have created more wars than any other order in human history in my view though I am not a historian. Even today most of the conflicts arise out of religious differences.

This is because most religious traditions, especially the biblical ones and many of of Hindu sub-traditions base their practices on 'faith'. That word means - suspend reasons! So it is but natural if two people who have non-verifiable belief system can end up in conflict especially if the topic is about a concept called God and the stakes are high (hell or heaven whatever they may be).

Hindu religion is unlike any others. There are no books (no one has Vedas in their home, some may have Gita but most do not understand a reconciled view of all the chapters). There is no one form of worship. There are many leaders and practices and no one of authority (like Pope for example). There is no concept of conversion and no one can deny if someone says they are a Hindu (and I know a few Americans who are Sannyasis or on their path to Sannyasy and they are respected like anyone else by Hindu community in America). So it is not really an organized religion.

Even in practices such as Pooja one can do ‘substitutions’ of rice for Gold! There are also many practices that are not conformant to Vedic ideas because no one knows them. Even the priests that chant some vedic verses do a lot of ‘blah blah’ without fully understanding the meanings in many cases. People share bribes with the ‘Lord’ 
icon7.png
This can only happen in India! The greatest thing is that like Judaism it is a gentle religion with no requirement to convert others. So I will not lump Hinduism with other religion – it is in its own category!

The Vedas which is supposed to form the basis for many Hindu traditions teach (not preach) that Isvara ( purposely I am not using the word God) is to be understood and not believed. The traditions of temples etc. are to aid in that path to understanding. Many are not into learning the concepts and are served well by stories in the Purana which all started out with a message but have been embellished (which make them very interesting). So the story about Brahma , Vishnu etc like you cite is taken as true by common people. Often the significance of a story is lost or never learnt and the stories has evolved over the years. These stories cannot be compared with reading a Bible for example.

I was talking about the concept of Brahman and not the Puranic God in the form of creator Brahma.

Anyway you are right that the average person approaches the practices ‘as a belief system’ without fully understanding the underlying concepts and that may be fine if the concepts are grounded in truth that can be understood.

A religious person is expected to be ethical and may not be. An ethical person need not conform to any religion (traditions) and that is completely fine in the vision of vedas. A sannyasi is free from doing any religious rituals and focus only on learning (and of course to be ethical in how they deal with other beings including human beings).

The foundation of Sanathana Dharma and views of Upanishads about what is true are universal and applies to all beings. It does not belong to Hindus any more than gravitational laws do not belong to the country Newton was born. Therefore I will not lump vedic knowledge with the broad practices of Hinduism. The approach of Upanishads is scientific but the subject matter is beyond the scope of Science (and this is a huge topic).

Though my PhD in physics is dated, I can say that what Hawking taught or has written is not in opposition to the vision of Vedas. Once again in the vedic vision concept of creation does not exist - only manifestation, unmanifestation cycles. The possible and but unprovable existance of multiverses (parallel universes) do not contradict the vision of vedanta.

The best students of Vedanta tend to be in my experience from the religion (another belief system) of Atheism! Hope you will explore that as an Atheist!

Regards,

Many neo students of Vedas and Vedanta twist Vedas in line with Science. If it was the age of Newtonian physics then Vedas have to contain these ideas. If it was the age of Einstein , Vedas have to contain this. If it is the age of quantum physics, vedas have to contain this. It does not matter that there are many facets to the scientific concepts which are in opposition to each other. The Neo Vedantic spin masters , would like to spin every new scientific idea from the vedas and the vedanta. This way Vedanta would be a bundle of theories nothing more. Is this really what Neo Vedantists want? Some consistency is needed I say! Why dont these guys just admit they dont understand the imagination of the vedas and keep quiet. Is it not a safer bet then floating along with every new theory in Science. If this is the line that is pursued Science will continue to be established , nobody will however feel the need for Vedanta. Do they want this?
 
Many neo students of Vedas and Vedanta twist Vedas in line with Science. If it was the age of Newtonian physics then Vedas have to contain these ideas. If it was the age of Einstein , Vedas have to contain this. If it is the age of quantum physics, vedas have to contain this. It does not matter that there are many facets to the scientific concepts which are in opposition to each other. The Neo Vedantic spin masters , would like to spin every new scientific idea from the vedas and the vedanta. This way Vedanta would be a bundle of theories nothing more. Is this really what Neo Vedantists want? Some consistency is needed I say! Why dont these guys just admit they dont understand the imagination of the vedas and keep quiet. Is it not a safer bet then floating along with every new theory in Science. If this is the line that is pursued Science will continue to be established , nobody will however feel the need for Vedanta. Do they want this?

Dear Sir:

The Neo Vedantic spin masters , would like to spin every new scientific idea from the vedas and the vedanta. This way Vedanta would be a bundle of theories nothing more.

Interesting view....

I believe that some of the "Hindu Intellectuals" have an eternal longing to keep Vedas and Upanishads (all written nearly 2000 years ago, I assume) to keep it "Holy" and very relevant to the contemporary modern world, which is constantly changing because of Scientific Thinking in everyday life and experience. In their world of thinking and analysis, Vedas have it all - all written about the future of the world, its people and their thinking prowess long long time ago - more than 2000 years ago - thus what Science reveals today is just an old story re-told with scientific vigor and experimentation!

Anyway, I don't want to call them "The Neo Vedantic Spin Masters" as it may sound harsh and ridiculing!

Cheers.

Regards

Y
 
Last edited:
Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) and Stephen Hawking (SH): There is NO Heaven or Hell.

After about ten long years of working on ALS as a Neuro-scientist to understand it molecularly and to find some "cure", I really wonder how and why SH escaped the "real wrath" of ALS! Almost 99.99% of the patients inflicted with ALS are dead in about 8-10 years, and SH got his disease when he was just 21 years of age!!

To the readers, what exactly is ALS (or Lou Gahrig's - The Iron Man of American Baseball - disease)? This is a form of motor neuron disease where both upper (brain and brain stem) AND lower (spinal cord) motor neurons die prematurely and the patient's diaphragm fails and people die of respiratory failure in about 2-10 year period. Motor neurons are the neurons which innervate muscle fibers to function according to the commands of the sensory neurons (via inter-neurons).

Clearly, SH has lost all most all motor activity including part of the diaphragm - he survives barely with the help of modern medical technology. To the amazement of most neurologists, SH has a hyper active Sensory Neurons - the neurons that make human beings think and analyze complex problems - he is a theoretical physicist with complete understanding of mathematics and cosmology..

SH after all the meditation and analysis has concluded that there is no Heaven!

Most biological scientists have been saying for several decades that there cannot be any Heaven or Hell or any Reincarnation to the consternation of Believers of Organized Religions (Hinduism, Christianity, Islam and the likes)

So much for the intellectual acumen of Stephen Hawking! Lol.

Cheers.
 
Last edited:
Sri Sravana - I assume you are making this statement based on your judgement and not asking a question, hence I am not responding

Regards

Yes Shri TKS, it is a remark on your view that Hawking's concept of God is in alignment with vedic vision. I think it is not so.
 
"However I humbly submit that heaven and earth are real. We feel it momentarily from time to time. I do not believe they exist outside our mind! "

Dear Aranganathan:

I believe the heaven and hell are the mental constructs of human beings.. they are not REAL...but earth is REAL....

"Finally please pardon me for asking thus: "Who created whom?""

Neither Science nor the Organized Religions nor Vedic Philosophers can answer to the satisfaction of most people!

I just don't care about the right answer! Lol

Cheers.

Regards.

Y
 
"Talking about Hinduism, this is my pet theory. I think of it like a pyramid - the base is tribal worship and customs; the mid-part is idol worship and related customs; the apex is vedhic worship and philosophy. When you get to the top of the pyramid and see the world-view, all differences disappear and merge into one picture. I believe in "Ta tvam asi"!"

Dear Aranganathan:

Are you sure that the Vedas and Upanishads did not contribute to "idol worship and related customs" and the "tribal worship and customs"?

I believe Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas and their commentaries did contribute to the entire Pyramid! Hence Hinduism is called "Vedic Religion" for several centuries now... and the Vedic People are the Aryans who migrated from the Central Asia into India (from linguistic history and similarity of Sanskrit and Indo-European languages) about 2500 years ago.

Neo-Vedic Thinkers now change the storyline, IMO!

Cheers.
 
Last edited:
I too am a student of Physics. I wanted to do a PhD in nuclear physics but luckily the world was saved from a disaster!
I like this explanation tks! I noticed the distinction between Brhman and Brahma. I think I understand Brhman but can someone give me a clear definition of it? I believe I have graduated out of religion into spirituality and I quite like Adhvaitha.

Talking about Hinduism, this is my pet theory. I think of it like a pyramid - the base is tribal worship and customs; the mid-part is idol worship and related customs; the apex is vedhic worship and philosophy. When you get to the top of the pyramid and see the world-view, all differences disappear and merge into one picture. I believe in "Ta tvam asi"!

Sri Aranganathan - I was a newbie few weeks ago - welcome.

You are Brman
icon7.png


Cant give a more succinct answer - obviously appreciating this and *understanding this* can take a lifetime.. You will need a qualified teacher to eventually understand much of the teachings.

Let me share my other thoughts around the points you made.
There are lots of customs and belief systems in the world that have no basis. This includes belief systems that are basis for major organized religions as well as those that forms the basis for Atheism & 'forever agnosticism' . Any belief system by definition implies that reasons cannot apply. Best is to never argue with a religious person - it is a waste of time and you end up annoying them with your reasons
icon7.png


We have in this world individuals with own belief systems though it may not be an organized belief system

In India, we have large number of practices driven by such belief systems. Some are harmful and others are benign, in my view.

Certain Rituals reinforce underlying concepts and sometime people only do the rituals without knowing the significance. That is ok as a start in my view provided the underlying significance is based on what can be shown to be true and consistent.

So instead of your pyramid analogy, I would like to think in terms of stacks - Lowest stack provides foundation models with Veda as a 'means of knowledge' and other belief systems that have no basis. Schools of thought are built on these foundations (next plane). Rituals and forms or worship or behaviours of people form the next plane.

Vedanta has to be understood and not believed. So one has to know what the axioms are.
When there is a unified truth it does not contradict with other 'truths' such as physical order/laws.

To understand this subject (vedanta) requires what you learned to study any other field - proper foundation and infrastructure, right attitude and Shraddha. Without right preparation it is hard to make headway.


Based on my exposure to this forum I would not use the chatter here to teach you anything about vedanta. I avoid reading posts or engaging anyone in the forum that does not come across to me as having genuine Shraddha to learn, not make things up and show dignity that is evident from strength of character. I have no problem with people holding opposing views but I hold them to higher standard to demonstrate scholarly analysis.

I did not mean to sound like I am lecturing .. Just wanted to share with a newbie from someone who used to be one a few weeks ago. All the best in your quest to learn!


Regards
 
Yamaka
With my limited understanding of Vedas, it seems that Vedas encourage questioning. Tribal and idol worship do not. Tribal and idol worship were prevalent in India thousands of years before the arrival of Aryans. Very likely there is partial overlap in the sections of the pyramid. It helps me think of it like a progression from the base to the apex.
 
Many neo students of Vedas and Vedanta twist Vedas in line with Science. If it was the age of Newtonian physics then Vedas have to contain these ideas. If it was the age of Einstein , Vedas have to contain this. If it is the age of quantum physics, vedas have to contain this. It does not matter that there are many facets to the scientific concepts which are in opposition to each other. The Neo Vedantic spin masters , would like to spin every new scientific idea from the vedas and the vedanta. This way Vedanta would be a bundle of theories nothing more. Is this really what Neo Vedantists want? Some consistency is needed I say! Why dont these guys just admit they dont understand the imagination of the vedas and keep quiet. Is it not a safer bet then floating along with every new theory in Science. If this is the line that is pursued Science will continue to be established , nobody will however feel the need for Vedanta. Do they want this?
All -


This post reminds me of Sri KRS's quote http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6457-flaws-advaita-real-perceived-5.html#post79388 that the poster "makes statements with his fragmented knowledge".

This topic area requires certain amount of infrastructure and right Shradha to have meaningful discussions. I will normally respond to questions (not that I claim I know all the answers) relative to the statements I make if I sense a desire for serious discussion with Shraddha without need to label people and spin the original statements I have made.

Without right attitude and background fundamental vedic knowledge will appear confusing such as how Nirguna Brahman with no attributes will seemingly have attributes of Maya. Such discussion requires understanding reality which in turn requires maturity gained from knowledge and effort. I cannot say this post here is exemplary for display of maturity. Therefore I am not dignifying it with further response now or later.

Cheers http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/images/icons/icon7.png
 
All -


This post reminds me of Sri KRS's quote http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6457-flaws-advaita-real-perceived-5.html#post79388 that the poster "makes statements with his fragmented knowledge".

This topic area requires certain amount of infrastructure and right Shradha to have meaningful discussions. I will normally respond to questions (not that I claim I know all the answers) relative to the statements I make if I sense a desire for serious discussion with Shraddha without need to label people and spin the original statements I have made.

Without right attitude and background fundamental vedic knowledge will appear confusing such as how Nirguna Brahman with no attributes will seemingly have attributes of Maya. Such discussion requires understanding reality which in turn requires maturity gained from knowledge and effort. I cannot say this post here is exemplary for display of maturity. Therefore I am not dignifying it with further response now or later.

Cheers http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/images/icons/icon7.png

The problem with people is even a fair criticism is taken as a disrespect to Vedanta. All our philosophies have been made dry by blind repetition. TKS thinks advaita is wonderful and all proven. There is a need to evaluate these subjects and I think it is a wonderful development that we have had people like madhva and ramanuja who have questioned advaita and the lacuna in advaita is self evident. Whether some intuition or experience can fulfill that gap is hypothetical.

Regarding my statements here, I have no where criticized vedas or vedanta. It is my argument that the neo vedists have not only not substantiated their cases but have attempted to manufacture evidences. The attempts of Maharishi Mahesh YogI being an example. In other instances babas who indulge in cut copy paste have been promoted to the level of experts in religion.

TKS is yet to prove his familiarity with this subject to attempt to make such a lofty criticism of mine.

I have no hesitation in admitting my limited knowledge and I have done so unlike some. But if some statement is made it should be logically provable. My head is atleast fit enough for that purpose.
 
everything is between the space of two ears advaitha,dvaitha,va...etc

hell or heaven is between the two ears..otherwise by now we would have the longitude latitude of them

god is within all of us from head to foot as the spirit soul ,aham brahmasmi
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top