Spiritual Frauds

[pannvalan]

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Solbhavar seivadhillai;
Seibhavar solvadhillai.

Idhuve vazhkkai thathuvam.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I wonder whether the law is being enforced impartially. On what charges was Nityananda arrested? Why was he denied bail repeatedly? When did having sex with a consulting adult become a crime in India?

The law enforcement authorities went on TV and other media asking the public to lodge complaints against Nityananda. Do they do this in all cases? Is this the way Law is enforced?

This is witch hunting. They booked a case against him for possessing Fair price ration Kerosene? Has anyone in India ever been booked for this offense? There are millions of people who can booked for this crime?

At the same time the man who is arrested as a suspect in the Pune explosion gets bail easily. Murderers get bail. A person who was a prime accused in the Coimbatore blast case and who is still an accused in the Bangalore blast case walks around freely and gets VIP treatment.

I remember how Jayendrar was denied bail by every court in Tamil Nadu? How he was booked under the Goonda's act.

There seems to be one law for Hindu religious persons and another for terrorists, murderers and other criminals.

I join in the condemnation of Nityananda. But just because we do not like him, you want him to be hanged. Is this fair? Is this Justice? We are not in the middle ages. We are supposed to be a Democratic country governed by Laws. The Law can not hang a person because the public opinion is against him.

 

[nachi naga]

I wonder whether the law is being enforced impartially. On what charges was Nityananda arrested? Why was he denied bail repeatedly? When did having sex with a consulting adult become a crime in India?

The law enforcement authorities went on TV and other media asking the public to lodge complaints against Nityananda. Do they do this in all cases? Is this the way Law is enforced?

This is witch hunting. They booked a case against him for possessing Fair price ration Kerosene? Has anyone in India ever been booked for this offense? There are millions of people who can booked for this crime?

At the same time the man who is arrested as a suspect in the Pune explosion gets bail easily. Murderers get bail. A person who was a prime accused in the Coimbatore blast case and who is still an accused in the Bangalore blast case walks around freely and gets VIP treatment.

I remember how Jayendrar was denied bail by every court in Tamil Nadu? How he was booked under the Goonda's act.

There seems to be one law for Hindu religious persons and another for terrorists, murderers and other criminals.

I join in the condemnation of Nityananda. But just because we do not like him, you want him to be hanged. Is this fair? Is this Justice? We are not in the middle ages. We are supposed to be a Democratic country governed by Laws. The Law can not hang a person because the public opinion is against him.

ss

a fine post filled with sense and sensibilities.rules are followedselectively for selective people.indian democracy is unlike usa democracy.naturally the british left the trash in indian minds in 1947,which will take time to get purged from india.i think its about time.63 years is a lifetime for some.courts in india s nonsense.every judge can be bought.every political leader can b bought.now in the bandwagon,every guru can be bought or made to look like a fool in public.jayendrar saraswathi holiness,is one of the virulent hindu religious leader who does thins openly,unlike his predessor who did things in a sookshamam manner,subtle actions.

nithyananda did have a meteoric rise and fell down as fas as that.pity,he did have a unique style.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Sri Nachi Naga,Sri Sankara_sharmah,

I can understand the anguish and emotion of helplessness in your two
above posts.

India is a country with lot f diversities. No other country may be having such many diversities.

But above all India stands as unified nation. Problems are many.

Even though there are many times when the court judgments could have gone wrong, still courts are the last resort for helpless citizens.

Judges also come from the different sections of society. If the society as a whole has its defects, naturally judges also will be having a tinge of that, though ,still there are many excellent examples who are unblemished. Overall judiciary is better than other wings of the State.

Now a days the media is also much biased based on their own taste at that time and commercial value of the news for them. Hence one sided reporting is resorted to.Many facts are suppressed, and only favoured side is magnified.Still, if media is altogether not there, many exposures could not have been there.

The need is for the individual and society to be correct,then everything will follow.It is easy to imagine and preach, but reality is far away, and under constant temptations.

Saataan works overtime.

Greetings

 

[Nara]

Here is to you Anand ....

Anand, you gave me one, Mano Singham. Here is one to you from me, and I think you will appreciate this more than me.

Philip Goldberg: Are Eastern Religions More Science-Friendly?

Fraud or not, I leave it to better people than myself.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Shri. Nara,

Thanks. I almost missed this as I am rarely visiting the forum these days. I think apart from the scientific bent of mind of the ancient Hindus, more and more people are coming to realise that Hindu concepts of one truth but many ways to it and acceptance of all religions as opposed to My one and only god is the way forward in future to avoid conflicts. You may find this series of articles below interesting.

Future of Hinduism

As for how a lot of scientific concepts and theories passed from ancient India through the Arabs to Europe is pretty much acknowledged in intellectual circles though never promoted much in the mainstream. Though the Semitic religions seem to be at each other's throats elsewhere when it comes to bashing Hinduism they make strange partners in bed. Probably to do with the fact that Hinduism is the last surviving Pagan tradition and these religions associate paganism with all kinds of esoteric and evil.

When science talks about the unlimited power of the human mind which remains untapped it is doing so from the intellectual view point but it is also coming to understand that our seers were able to tap the mind through intuitive abilities and these abilities were developed through advanced meditation and yogic techniques.

There was never a doubt that Hindusim was not science friendly. Early Christianity was anti Science and honestly there was never any great scientific inventions in the world of Islam. Comparing this to the India a 1000 years before, unless it was a happening place, why would the Mughals, Brits, French, Portuguese and the Dutch be all over the place. Even Columbus wanted to sail to India and accidently discovered America. Unless there was a societal structure in place which promoted peace, harmony, productivity and wealth a country could not be attracting so much attraction from others.

I think the India of today is a far cry from what existed centuries back in spite of current growth rates.

 

[sangom]

There was never a doubt that Hindusim was not science friendly. Early Christianity was anti Science and honestly there was never any great scientific inventions in the world of Islam. Comparing this to the India a 1000 years before, unless it was a happening place, why would the Mughals, Brits, French, Portuguese and the Dutch be all over the place. Even Columbus wanted to sail to India and accidently discovered America. Unless there was a societal structure in place which promoted peace, harmony, productivity and wealth a country could not be attracting so much attraction from others.

I think the India of today is a far cry from what existed centuries back in spite of current growth rates.

Mughals, the Portuguese, the French, the Dutch, the Brits all came to India for its natural resources with trade as their main aim. But when they found so much of internicine enmity and wars between the different peoples of India, their "chaanakya buddhi" told them that they could easily pit one fellow against another here and colonise. It was exactly opposite to what you piously dream - a society of peace and harmony, but productivity and wealth were of course there to attract all the marauders.

 

[anandb]

I don't subscribe to your view and don't expect you to endorse mine. Actually, the wars started after these marauders came in. The brutal methods of war started by these marauders were quite alien to the society of those times. You need to give some credit to the Indians that after almost 800 years of brutalization we are still intact with most of our customs and as a country while a lot of local cultures, tribal methods, aborigines and native populations were wiped out by these invaders in the rest of the world.

I don't measure productivity and wealth by current benchmarks which is mountains of debt masquerading as wealth. By productivity and wealth, I mean the contributions to philosophical thought, literature, poetry, arts and crafts, customs, culture and so on apart from the usual wealth creation through trade and production. To me, all these are not possible if there was no inherent peace and harmony in society.

Compare this to present day growth rates of India. Impressive no doubt but how much of it is inclusive of all sections of the society? How much of this is based on basic human morals than just unbridled consumer driven growth? How much of it has been achieved without polluting the environment including our rivers, forests and air? How much of it has been achieved without money being laundered outside India and politicians getting greased? How do we tackle increasing urbanization, corruption of the police and judiciary, blindness of the mainstream media and the general callousness of the people using terminologies like "Only change is constant" and if mores change so be it. Today concepts like dating, living together, divorce, partying with lots of booze and drugs may be accepted because of "changing mores" but tomorrow rape, kidnap, extortion and abduction could all become accepted because they are happening anyway.

To borrow your words, I will rather "piously dream" :happy: than think about the present.

 

[Nara]

Dear Anand,

...Though the Semitic religions seem to be at each other's throats elsewhere when it comes to bashing Hinduism they make strange partners in bed.

I think you are just venting and that is fine. But, IMO, there is no systematic effort to bash Hinduism among the general populace, it sure exists among fundamentalist Christians. (Aside: interestingly enough the rhetoric of these Christians is very similar to the political Hindu rhetoric).

In recognition of the growing Hindu population in the U.S., in 2007, a Hindu prayer was offered for the first time in the most hallowed of American institutions, the US Senate. Three fundamentalist Christians tried to interrupt the service and were arrested and removed from the galleries.

Also, in the U.S. no town is without a Hindu temple. Major metropolitan areas have several. In some cases the local community tried to put road blocks with zoning laws etc., but with the constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the law, Hindu groups are able to succeed. In many of these cases the Jewish community is firmly on the side of Hindus.

So, strange bedfellows is not factually correct, at least in the U.S.

There was never a doubt that Hindusim was not science friendly.

The early Vedic pioneers were probably pantheistic or deists. What we have now as Hindusim is indeed a "far cry from what existed centuries back".

Any science we see in the Vedas is just coincidence. In those days, religion was science, because religion at the time tried to explain the vagaries of nature. When true science came along, all religions tried to shut it off. Even in Ramayana, Jabali gets shouted down by none other than Lord Rama himself, which gives us a glimpse of the power of the establishment against rationality. While other religions were, and some still are, quite antithetical to science, the best we can say about Hinduism is that it tries to stay out of the way and not be science unfriendly.

... honestly there was never any great scientific inventions in the world of Islam.

This is also not factually correct. The very process of review and replication was introduced by scientists from the Islamic world. In the medieval times the best science, engineering, architecture, art, etc., flourished in the Islamic world. The Greek classics were lost to the Europeans and had to be translated back from Arabic as the Islamic scholars had meticulously translated these works into Arabic and preserved them. The Persian polymath Omar Khayam is a shining example of what Islamic world has given to humanity. Of course, I would not credit any of this to the religion itself.

From your response to Shri sangom:

Today concepts like dating, living together, divorce, partying with lots of booze and drugs may be accepted because of "changing mores" but tomorrow rape, kidnap, extortion and abduction could all become accepted because they are happening anyway.

Come on Anand, these are groundless fears. Such things as "dating, living together, divorce" are the norm in the west, and "partying with lots of booze" is also quite common, and "and drugs" is not very uncommon either. But, none of this has led to "rape, kidnap, extortion and abduction" being accepted, or, any basis to suspect these will be accepted by anyone anywhere at anytime.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

anand,

i think 95% you are correct and 5% nara is correct.living in the west,ppl of indian origin tend to change and change also in outlook,its natural.regarding dating partying drugs booze...etc these happen even in affluent or higher income groups kids and youths to some extent.wealth brings in a certain freedom,which can get grossly mis-used.temples in usa do exist just as temples in india.believe me,these are all relatively new openness being exbhited,owing to a all welcoming culture by the majority christians.there are reports of vandalism by hooligans too,smashing moorthies,priests being heckled and a slap on the wrist kinda of treatment.its natural only,for majority christians to feel insecure,seeing hindu temples and hindus gathering worshipping praying..etc.though dot busters have done their jobs,as no indian origin woman would like to wear a bindi thirumangalyam as per our religious shastras.most women/men put up a show of wearing a saree or salwar or dhothi as the occassion demands.in america everything goes as long as no one breaks the law,which is true in india too.majority americans are like rich indian christians ,if i may write so,as originally its the land of red-indians aka native americans,rest all of us are aliens who have become naturalised by enactment of a law.

 

[nachi naga]

Mughals, the Portuguese, the French, the Dutch, the Brits all came to India for its natural resources with trade as their main aim. But when they found so much of internicine enmity and wars between the different peoples of India, their "chaanakya buddhi" told them that they could easily pit one fellow against another here and colonise. It was exactly opposite to what you piously dream - a society of peace and harmony, but productivity and wealth were of course there to attract all the marauders.

sangom

trade is only a ruse.the actual motive is conversion to christanity/islam.my only god is god,other gods are NOT gods.so,we need to understand this.i find it so comical and ridiculous,to think even,that god existed only 2010 years or 1600 years back,either accept it or we will kill either physically or economically or create your neighbors to be your enemies or make life miserable in world forums,make your country sick decadent,and take every oppurtunity to go back on trusted agreements.guess who are they?no prizes for guessing.americans are a diff lot though,at least so far in my life.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Anand,

QUOTE

I don't measure productivity and wealth by current benchmarks which is mountains of debt masquerading as wealth.

A good statement. We measure a man's/country's wealth only by seeing the assets side that is visible to others. But, the liabilities side is always hidden or kept under wraps. Is it not clearly misleading?

 

[Nara]

(I am posting this here as I feel it belongs here more than the other thread.)

Dear RVR sir,

I am sorry to say, I think you are missing my points by miles.

.. The present Vakya Panchangam is predicting the solar/Lunar eclipse which is corroborated by astronomy. We cannot just like discard the knowledge passed on to us by several generations.

I don't think there was any discussion at anytime about discarding ancient knowledge. The invention of place value of numbers is a great invention, nobody in the right mind would say discard that knowledge. But, Astronomy and mathematics have come a long way, and they have nothing to do with Astrology or numerology. Saying Astronomy is part of Astrology is like saying Mathematics is part of Numerology.

at Kanchi mutt, the selection is done from the Vedha Patasalas at a very early age. All the students of these vedha patasalas are just brahmacharies and not Sanyasis.

Traditional mutts are not claiming any super natural powers.

However every body has to be vigilant and should not get cheated.

I agree that claiming supernatural powers is one indicator of possible fraud, people need to be vigilant. But they should not let their guards down just because another godman/guru/acharya hail from long tradition and undergo rigorous studies and training. We need to look at what that tradition stands for and the personal conduct of the guru/acharya -- these are just as important.

Let us take the first point, tradition. What does the tradition of Brahmnical Matams stand for? Among other things, the tradition of Brahmnical Matams stand for Brahmin supremacy. Let me cite two passages, one from Sankara Bhashyam and the second from Sri Bhashyam of Bhagavat Ramanuja.

First, Sankara Bhashyam I.3.38:

"The Sûdras are not qualified for that reason also that Smriti prohibits their hearing the Veda, their studying the Veda, and their understanding and performing Vedic matters. The prohibition of hearing the Veda is conveyed by the following passages: 'The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with (molten) lead and lac,' and 'For a Sûdra is (like) a cemetery, therefore (the Veda) is not to be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra.' From this latter passage the prohibition of studying the Veda results at once; for how should he study Scripture in whose vicinity it is not even to be read? There is, moreover, an express prohibition (of the Sûdras studying the Veda). 'His tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut through if he preserves it.'"
​

Sri Bhashyam I.3.38

The Sûdra is specially forbidden to hear and study the Veda and to perform the things enjoined in it. 'For a Sûdra is like a cemetery, therefore the Veda must not be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra;' 'Therefore the Sûdra is like a beast, unfit for sacrifices.' And he who does not hear the Veda recited cannot learn it so as to understand and perform what the Veda enjoins. The prohibition of hearing thus implies the prohibition of understanding and whatever depends on it.​

continued in Sri Bhashyam I.3.39

Smriti also declares this prohibition of hearing, and so on. 'The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with molten lead and lac; if he pronounces it his tongue is to be slit; if he preserves it his body is to be cut through.' And 'He is not to teach him sacred duties or vows.'--It is thus a settled matter that the Sûdras are not qualified for meditations on Brahman.
​

(These translations are from SacredTexts.Com web site.)

Many may get angry with me and may not believe me when I say am not trying to denigrate Adi Sankara or Bhagavat Ramanuja. But, really, I am not trying to denigrate either of them. They were probably bound by the widely accepted sacredness of these texts.

But, as long as the present day Matams do not repudiate these passages, they are tainted by them. This makes these Matams worthy of severe criticism, no less than the self proclaimed godmen. Criticizing godmen is easy, but we need to own up to what is under our own ஒய்யாரக் கொண்டை.

Second, personal conduct.

Even the Arch Bishops selected by catholics are indulging in sex abuse.

Yes, this is why long tradition, study, and training do not automatically exempt anybody. They have to prove their mettle by conduct.

With respect to the murder case you are referring to, it seems to me, sadly enough, truth is the major casualty in all the drama. One is left wondering whom to believe, the government or the matam. Whatever be the outcome of the case, doubt will continue to linger in the mind of the public. Such is the state of the judiciary in India. When it comes to the rich and powerful, there is no transparency or accountability.

The only way to regain the trust and respectability is to setup an independent inquiry commission, with subpoena powers, under the leadership of eminent jurists, perhaps a retired SC justice or some such person, and give them sufficient budget and firm time frame. Let the chips fall where they may. But, I am not holding my breath for it to happen.

So, RVR sir, I don't find your points convincing, well established Matams must undergo the same level of scrutiny and be subjected to criticisms if deserved, to the same extent as that of the self-proclaimed godmen.

Cheers!

 

[sankara_sharmah]

There is a wrong impression about the Sankara Maths in general. It represents the Smartha religion. In Tamil Nadu all the castes except Brahmins are Saivas. So the Sankara Math represents only Brahmins.

But this is not true of rest of India. The main Sankara Maths have hundreds of associated Sankara Maths. If we look at Shringeri Math its followers in Andhra Pradesh include people from all communities. For example, the Arya Vaisya community has a number of followers of Shringeri Math. The Tarakeswar Sankara Math in West Bengal has a sizable following in the region irrespective of caste. The Sankara Math in Ramrajtala controls the famous Rama temple there. The Swamiji there is a Rama Bhaktha and only talks about Vishnu and Narayana. All the Sankara Maths have following from all castes.

The religious situation in Tamil Nadu is unique. That is what makes the caste equation in Tamil Nadu strange to say the least.

The Sankara Maths were started to propagate the Non-Sectarian tolerant Hinduism. They have done a wonderful job. Today most of the Hindus are non-sectarian.

Only for information.

 

[sangom]

(I am posting this here as I feel it belongs here more than the other thread.)
...

But they should not let their guards down just because another godman/guru/acharya hail from long tradition and undergo rigorous studies and training. We need to look at what that tradition stands for and the personal conduct of the guru/acharya -- these are just as important.

..well established Matams must undergo the same level of scrutiny and be subjected to criticisms if deserved, to the same extent as that of the self-proclaimed godmen.

Cheers!

Dear Nara,

I am in full agreement with you in that established Matams also should be subjected to the same level of scrutiny and to criticisms if deserved, to the same extent as that of the self-proclaimed godmen.

In this context I wish to bring to the forum's notice the meteoric rise of one "sakatapuram" Sankaracharya.

Shakatapuram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know some devotees of this acharya and can say with conviction that this is a case which deserves scrutiny. It seems that the matam was nondescript and had a branch in Tiruvottiyur or so. The earlier sanyasis in charge of the matam were not at all heard about. But one person told me that the sanyasi previous to the present incumbent had visited Indore and his forte seemed to be giving 'rakshais' (talismans) for all problems, of course at a price.

The present incumbent has had very rapid rise to name, fame and riches. He has a lot of followers in Delhi and Mumbai as also Chennai.

Coming to the Manu prescription on Sudras, while they are definitely a blot on any one holding them to be good, in our estimation of a matadhipati, this is not relevant, I suppose, as long as he does not call for the Manu law to be enforced now.

 

[kunjuppu]

.

The religious situation in Tamil Nadu is unique. That is what makes the caste equation in Tamil Nadu strange to say the least.

The Sankara Maths were started to propagate the Non-Sectarian tolerant Hinduism. They have done a wonderful job. Today most of the Hindus are non-sectarian.

Only for information.

sankara,

what does non sectarian mean?

also, tamil nadu has adheenams. does other states have such?

 

[RVR]

(I am posting this here as I feel it belongs here more than the other thread.)

Dear RVR sir,

I am sorry to say, I think you are missing my points by miles.



I don't think there was any discussion at anytime about discarding ancient knowledge. The invention of place value of numbers is a great invention, nobody in the right mind would say discard that knowledge. But, Astronomy and mathematics have come a long way, and they have nothing to do with Astrology or numerology. Saying Astronomy is part of Astrology is like saying Mathematics is part of Numerology.


I agree that claiming supernatural powers is one indicator of possible fraud, people need to be vigilant. But they should not let their guards down just because another godman/guru/acharya hail from long tradition and undergo rigorous studies and training. We need to look at what that tradition stands for and the personal conduct of the guru/acharya -- these are just as important.

Let us take the first point, tradition. What does the tradition of Brahmnical Matams stand for? Among other things, the tradition of Brahmnical Matams stand for Brahmin supremacy. Let me cite two passages, one from Sankara Bhashyam and the second from Sri Bhashyam of Bhagavat Ramanuja.

First, Sankara Bhashyam I.3.38:

"The Sûdras are not qualified for that reason also that Smriti prohibits their hearing the Veda, their studying the Veda, and their understanding and performing Vedic matters. The prohibition of hearing the Veda is conveyed by the following passages: 'The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with (molten) lead and lac,' and 'For a Sûdra is (like) a cemetery, therefore (the Veda) is not to be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra.' From this latter passage the prohibition of studying the Veda results at once; for how should he study Scripture in whose vicinity it is not even to be read? There is, moreover, an express prohibition (of the Sûdras studying the Veda). 'His tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut through if he preserves it.'"
​

Sri Bhashyam I.3.38

The Sûdra is specially forbidden to hear and study the Veda and to perform the things enjoined in it. 'For a Sûdra is like a cemetery, therefore the Veda must not be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra;' 'Therefore the Sûdra is like a beast, unfit for sacrifices.' And he who does not hear the Veda recited cannot learn it so as to understand and perform what the Veda enjoins. The prohibition of hearing thus implies the prohibition of understanding and whatever depends on it.​

continued in Sri Bhashyam I.3.39

Smriti also declares this prohibition of hearing, and so on. 'The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with molten lead and lac; if he pronounces it his tongue is to be slit; if he preserves it his body is to be cut through.' And 'He is not to teach him sacred duties or vows.'--It is thus a settled matter that the Sûdras are not qualified for meditations on Brahman.
​

(These translations are from SacredTexts.Com web site.)

Many may get angry with me and may not believe me when I say am not trying to denigrate Adi Sankara or Bhagavat Ramanuja. But, really, I am not trying to denigrate either of them. They were probably bound by the widely accepted sacredness of these texts.

But, as long as the present day Matams do not repudiate these passages, they are tainted by them. This makes these Matams worthy of severe criticism, no less than the self proclaimed godmen. Criticizing godmen is easy, but we need to own up to what is under our own ஒய்யாரக் கொண்டை.

Second, personal conduct.

Yes, this is why long tradition, study, and training do not automatically exempt anybody. They have to prove their mettle by conduct.

With respect to the murder case you are referring to, it seems to me, sadly enough, truth is the major casualty in all the drama. One is left wondering whom to believe, the government or the matam. Whatever be the outcome of the case, doubt will continue to linger in the mind of the public. Such is the state of the judiciary in India. When it comes to the rich and powerful, there is no transparency or accountability.

The only way to regain the trust and respectability is to setup an independent inquiry commission, with subpoena powers, under the leadership of eminent jurists, perhaps a retired SC justice or some such person, and give them sufficient budget and firm time frame. Let the chips fall where they may. But, I am not holding my breath for it to happen.

So, RVR sir, I don't find your points convincing, well established Matams must undergo the same level of scrutiny and be subjected to criticisms if deserved, to the same extent as that of the self-proclaimed godmen.

Cheers!

As for as astrology is concerned, the difference arises only in the prediction part. The prediction part is not a science and at best it could be treated as an `art'. Government run universities award only `Arts' degrees and not `science' degrees. So let us accept Government position that astrology is an `Art' subject and close the matter.

When it comes to `Art', I can only compare with a subject like economics. No two economists will give similar predictions and definitely there will be differences of opinion. Some times both the predictions go wrong and still we don't discard economics as a subject. We still hear predictions of economists whatever it is worth.

Once we accepted Indian constitution, each and every Indian citizen is bound by it. All these Dharma Sastas are already superseded with the adoption of Indian contitution.

Personally Kanchi mutt is a changed a lot which all of us can see. Few years back mostly brahmins use to visit the mutt. Today more than 90% of the visitors are not brahmins. Kanchi mutt offers food for all communities now. Kanchi Acharya mingles with all communities including daliths freely which any body can see. Reforms is a continuous process and I am sure further reforms will take place in the future.

Let the Government constitute an independent inquiry commission to find out truth of Sankararaman murder case. All of us are interested in knowing the truth. Excesses if any committed by the Government should also be brought under the proposed inquiry.

All the best

 

[Nara]

.... , in our estimation of a matadhipati, this is not relevant, I suppose, as long as he does not call for the Manu law to be enforced now.

Dear Shri sangom,

Yes, it is irrelevant to general public who are not TBs, and the TBs who have gone past caste thinking -- for them this whole enterprise is petty and unimportant. But, within the Matam itself this is of great importance. Let me quote a passage from the previous head of Kanchi Sankara Matam, Sri Chandrasekara Swamigal.

How can birth be the basis of the quality on which one's occupation is based? Before a man's individual character develops, he grows in a certain environment, the environment evolved through the vocation practiced in his family from generation to generation. He adopts this vocation and receives training in it from his people. It is in this manner that his guna is formed, and it is in keeping with his work. Everybody must have the conviction that he is benefited by the occupation to which he is born. When people in the past had this attitude in the past they were free from greed and feelings of rivalry. Besides, though they were divided on the basis of their vocations, there was harmony among them. Children born in such a set-up naturally develop a liking and aptitude for the family vocation. So what is practised according to birth came to be the same as that practised according to guna. Whatever the view of reformers today, in the old days an individual's ability to do a job was in accord with his guna; and in the dharma obtained in the past a man practised his calling according to his guna. Now it has become topsy-turvy.

Click here for the web page.
​

This line of argument about birth, guna, jati, calling, etc., are derived from Manu and other Dharma Shastras.

So, when we are discussing which godmen/guru./acharya are worthy of our criticisms, these are very relevant, I think.

best regards ....

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom,

Yes, it is irrelevant to general public who are not TBs, and the TBs who have gone past caste thinking -- for them this whole enterprise is petty and unimportant. But, within the Matam itself this is of great importance. Let me quote a passage from the previous head of Kanchi Sankara Matam, Sri Chandrasekara Swamigal.

...Click here for the web page.
​

This line of argument about birth, guna, jati, calling, etc., are derived from Manu and other Dharma Shastras.

So, when we are discussing which godmen/guru./acharya are worthy of our criticisms, these are very relevant, I think.

best regards ....

I agree.

 

[nachi naga]

Dear Shri sangom,

Yes, it is irrelevant to general public who are not TBs, and the TBs who have gone past caste thinking -- for them this whole enterprise is petty and unimportant. But, within the Matam itself this is of great importance. Let me quote a passage from the previous head of Kanchi Sankara Matam, Sri Chandrasekara Swamigal.

How can birth be the basis of the quality on which one's occupation is based? Before a man's individual character develops, he grows in a certain environment, the environment evolved through the vocation practiced in his family from generation to generation. He adopts this vocation and receives training in it from his people. It is in this manner that his guna is formed, and it is in keeping with his work. Everybody must have the conviction that he is benefited by the occupation to which he is born. When people in the past had this attitude in the past they were free from greed and feelings of rivalry. Besides, though they were divided on the basis of their vocations, there was harmony among them. Children born in such a set-up naturally develop a liking and aptitude for the family vocation. So what is practised according to birth came to be the same as that practised according to guna. Whatever the view of reformers today, in the old days an individual's ability to do a job was in accord with his guna; and in the dharma obtained in the past a man practised his calling according to his guna. Now it has become topsy-turvy.

Click here for the web page.
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This line of argument about birth, guna, jati, calling, etc., are derived from Manu and other Dharma Shastras.

So, when we are discussing which godmen/guru./acharya are worthy of our criticisms, these are very relevant, I think.

best regards ....

nara

while you eloquently write about Indians and their scriptures and quoting things totally out of context,you fail miserably to correct things in USA.Wherein races are being mentioned as Caucasians,african american,indian americans,asian americans.....etc.As per Bible do they have such demarcation?The Bible clearly says 'thou shall not kill' but killing or rather slaughtering of animals is a daily basis for human consumption,huh!So,your line of argument is a strawman's argument.Indian civilisation has been the foundation of all religions in the world.atheists do not have any alternative but constantly pick on god loving ppl and hurt their sentiments.I think,i know your agenda here,but it will not work at all.So,many invaders have come and one,but Indian civilisation is well and alive .sure there is stockholm syndrome persisting,which is natural after all 1200 years of mlechhas domination is no joke.

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
so called SV's or vaishnavas in particular never worship navagrahas...
so astrology based on navagrahas....there is no vaishnava temple
with navagraha sannidhi....so called Sri Ramanathaswamy in
Rameswaram worshiped by sri rama has beautiful navagraha
mandapam...so naturally SV and vaishnavas dont know much
about navagrahas/astrology.......they never heard of kolaru
pathigams......its natural their ignorance about astrology...

regards
tbs

 

[Nara]

I agree.

Dear Shri sangom, with your approving words I feel like I can conquer the world. I also know you will keep me straight when I stray and for that I am even more grateful.

best regards ....

 

[nachi naga]

Dear Shri sangom, with your approving words I feel like I can conquer the world. I also know you will keep me straight when I stray and for that I am even more grateful.

best regards ....

i agree with your agreement

 

[nachi naga]

rvr

Excesses if any committed by the Government should also be brought under the proposed inquiry.

this is not a possibility at all now in India.maybe in future its a possibilty.the goverment inaction or efficiency is the cause of all problems in India,and we Indians instead of just blaming need to take retroactive steps.even when we do,the difference in governance is marginally better or worse,as the case maybe.but then to govren a nation as diverse and populated is a miracle by itself.lets enjoy life as much as possible and in our small ways build a greater nation than India what is already.

 

[Nara]

As for as astrology is concerned, the difference arises only in the prediction part.

When people talk or debate about Astrology it is nothing but prediction. People who consult an Astrologer do so for prediction, not for figuring out on which day Sri Rama Navami falls or Sri Jayanthi is to be celebrated. How many know why Sri Rama navami is not on a navami sometimes? How many know why Sri Jayanthi is sometimes not on an Astami or Rohini? How many want to understand why there is adhika masam? Even all these little computations are mere trivialities compared to what our ancestors achieved.

Preparing the panjangam is based on tables left to us from hoary ancestors. How many Astrologers even understand why these tables work, I wonder?

So, I think it is not proper to suggest that Astrology is anything more than prediction.

Government run universities award only `Arts' degrees and not `science' degrees. So let us accept Government position that astrology is an `Art' subject and close the matter.

Why?

Governments are not the authority in these matters. Governments are often motivated by political considerations. The current DMK government wants Tamil New Year to be Thai 1st, most TBs resist this idea. Offering university degrees of any kind in Astrology is also politically motivated by Hindutva politicians. So, I see no reason to defer to the government to decide what is art, what is science, or anything like that.

When it comes to `Art', I can only compare with a subject like economics. No two economists will give similar predictions and definitely there will be differences of opinion. Some times both the predictions go wrong and still we don't discard economics as a subject. We still hear predictions of economists whatever it is worth.

Economics is much more than just prediction. When it come to prediction, they use scientific statistical techniques that try to make the best possible prediction. They provide margin of error and level of confidence for the predictions. Economists are constantly working to reduce the margin of error and improve the confidence level.

None of these is true in the case of Astrology. The only similarity is both economists and astrologers get predictions wrong. This is a superficial similarity. Economists work hard to figure out why their predictions go wrong and are trying to improve their methodologies. Astrologers have no clue. They don't even know why it is supposed to work in the first place, let alone why they get things wrong. But they will grandly proclaim one thing or another as sure shot reasons for their predictions going wrong, never taking any responsibility.

Further, economists never claim the level of certitude the astrologers claim. Economists themselves admit the margin for error. A Standford Economist is supposed to start his lectures with the caveat, "The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.”

This why, I think, comparing Economics and Astrology is like comparing மொட்டத்தலை and மொழங்கால்.

Once we accepted Indian constitution, each and every Indian citizen is bound by it. All these Dharma Sastas are already superseded with the adoption of Indian contitution.

I would like to see this stated by Brahmnical Matams. If they do, I will be among the first to applaud. But I don't see it coming in my life time.

Let the Government constitute an independent inquiry commission to find out truth of Sankararaman murder case. All of us are interested in knowing the truth. Excesses if any committed by the Government should also be brought under the proposed inquiry.

I don't think the truth will ever come out. That is a shame because the cloud of suspicion will never get lifted otherwise.

Cheers!