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shrI Sangom's Rgveda exposition: doubts and discussions

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namaste shrI Sangom and others.

Meanwhile whatever i have read about advaita says that Sankara disapproved Samkhya and Yoga, both with equal force, as means for realization of Brahman and, thus, to obtain moksha; he did not brand these two darsanas as unorthodox.

I understand that Shankara wrote vivaraNa for vyAsa-bhAShya on Patanjali maharShi's yoga-sUtras. Any idea if in this work Shankara refutes the yoga view or gives an advaitic interpretation of them?

Ashtanga Yoga: Practice and Philosophy - Google Books
 
namaste shrI Sangom and others.



I understand that Shankara wrote vivaraNa for vyAsa-bhAShya on Patanjali maharShi's yoga-sUtras. Any idea if in this work Shankara refutes the yoga view or gives an advaitic interpretation of them?

Ashtanga Yoga: Practice and Philosophy - Google Books
The sarva darsana samgraha lists yoga as the philosophical system closest to Vedanta. It is therefore viewed with a difference from shankara's philosophy yet it is close to it. This reference to Yoga refers to Yoga as a system of philosophy and it has been frequently distinguished from its use in Gita.
 
Dear saidevo,

...... Check what the renowned Theosophist CW Leadbeater said in pages 528-535 about it in this book: The Masters And The Path
:), please permit me a wise-crack, வேலிக்கு ஓணான் சாட்சி!!!

You have a knack of sending people who try to question Science with their elementary knowledge, into a wild goose chase.
Sorry, I don't follow.


If the entropy concept of the second law indicates the karmic process of dissolution, the absolute zero of the third law is the physical equivalent of NirguNa Brahman
Compared to this, the thinking that eating drumstick increases one's libido makes more sense, there is at least a மொட்டத்தலை to முழங்கால் connection :). There are more like this, Brahmma astram is H-bomb, pushpaka vimanam is space craft .....

The 'talk' of the Hindu concept of Absolute Truth is there in the Brahma-sUtra and the UpaniShads in theory, and the 'walk' in Patanjali's yoga-sUtras in practice, to mention two scriptures.
It seems you are proposing two spheres of knowledge, one built upon careful observation, analysis, and verification, and the other through nothing more than testimony of some people upon whom you have trust. If this works for you, that is great. All I am objecting to is the assertion of equal validity between the two.

I just don't understand why the faithful insist on this equivalency as if their self-worth depended on it. I tell you what, I will leave the spiritual people alone, I will never claim science is also spiritual. In return, it would be nice if the spiritual people will refrain from claiming their spirituality is equal in validity to science, deal?

best regards and happy cheers!
 
namaste shrI Sangom and others.



I understand that Shankara wrote vivaraNa for vyAsa-bhAShya on Patanjali maharShi's yoga-sUtras. Any idea if in this work Shankara refutes the yoga view or gives an advaitic interpretation of them?

Ashtanga Yoga: Practice and Philosophy - Google Books
In continuation with my previous reply to your post here is a link in advaita_vedanta that discusses on the same topic of shankara and yoga bhashya.
But as far as I know , the Patanjali Yoga sutras rely upon samkhya.
Link for your reference on shankara's authorship
Yoga sutra bhashya vivarana
 
I have made my post on the systems in discussion.
Sir I am not sure what you mean by Bhattacharya here.
But I referred to the fact that it was considered unorthodox in the sense it did not depend on sruti.
If you feel the Shankara no where claimed that samkhya did not depend on sruti, then please provide me sufficient information to sort this out. If it is not based on sruti then within that context it may be considered as unorthodox. But that is besides the point. My classification of unorthodox was in that sense , please feel free to replace with another new term in this context .

I am aware of sankara's refutation of such mundane philosophies. But all this is in the context of realization of Brahman. I am sure nobody is learning ashtanga yoga these days to merge with the Brahman.

Shri Iyer,

The correct name is S.K. Chattopadhyaya; sorry for the mistake.

The passages, I had clearly mentioned, were excerpts from a book; I now find that you have assumed those to be my original writing. the excerpts are from the book "Indian Philosophy" Vol. II by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan.


Kindly refer to your statement : "I will not present ellaborate details on why Shankara does not consider samkha, vaisesika etc in line with Sruti". In the context of our hindu tradition, when a philosphical system is not in line with Sruti, it becomes heretical; that was why the vedanta philosophers, right from Sankara, were very particular to prove that each point/step in their system was in accordance with Sruti. I did not want to repeat the very words you used and so said "unorthodox". Now it is up to you to provide evidence that nyaya, vaiseshika, samkhya, did not "depend on" sruti, or, better still, how they were not in accordance with Sruti.

Iyer, you are making a strange and perhaps impossible to be complied with, order : "If you feel the Shankara no where claimed that samkhya did not depend on sruti, then please provide me sufficient information to sort this out."

I say Sankara did not say so anywhere; what evidence can I provide, then, for something which I hold, does not exist, except requesting you to consider the wisdom in your demand, and go through all the bhashyas of Sankara ;)

"I am sure nobody is learning ashtanga yoga these days to merge with the Brahman."

In the face of such absolute confidence, nobody can argue!
 
Shri Iyer,

The correct name is S.K. Chattopadhyaya; sorry for the mistake.

The passages, I had clearly mentioned, were excerpts from a book; I now find that you have assumed those to be my original writing. the excerpts are from the book "Indian Philosophy" Vol. II by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan.


Kindly refer to your statement : "I will not present ellaborate details on why Shankara does not consider samkha, vaisesika etc in line with Sruti". In the context of our hindu tradition, when a philosphical system is not in line with Sruti, it becomes heretical; that was why the vedanta philosophers, right from Sankara, were very particular to prove that each point/step in their system was in accordance with Sruti. I did not want to repeat the very words you used and so said "unorthodox". Now it is up to you to provide evidence that nyaya, vaiseshika, samkhya, did not "depend on" sruti, or, better still, how they were not in accordance with Sruti.

Iyer, you are making a strange and perhaps impossible to be complied with, order : "If you feel the Shankara no where claimed that samkhya did not depend on sruti, then please provide me sufficient information to sort this out."

I say Sankara did not say so anywhere; what evidence can I provide, then, for something which I hold, does not exist, except requesting you to consider the wisdom in your demand, and go through all the bhashyas of Sankara ;)

"I am sure nobody is learning ashtanga yoga these days to merge with the Brahman."

In the face of such absolute confidence, nobody can argue!
The Vedanta Sutras, Sankaracharya, comm.: First Adhyâya, First Pâda: I, 1, 5
Sir thank you for the opportunity. I though I should quote directly from shankara's bashya on bramha sutra 1.1.5
I dont have the sanskrit text right away but we can discuss on this text word to word in sanskrit if you have a ready available text now. Here the word scripture is translated from sanskrit word sruti.
On account of seeing (i. e. thinking being attributed in the Upanishads to the cause of the world; the pradhâna) is not (to be identified with the cause indicated by the Upanishads; for) it is not founded on Scripture.
It is impossible to find room in the Vedânta-texts for the non-intelligent pradhâna, the fiction of the Sânkhyas; because it is not founded on Scripture. How so? Because the quality of seeing, i. e. thinking, is in Scripture ascribed to the cause. For the passage, Kh. Up. VI, 2, (which begins: 'Being only, my dear, this was in the beginning, one only, without a second,' and goes on, 'It thought (saw),
p. 48
may I be many, may I grow forth. It sent forth fire,') declares that this world differentiated by name and form, which is there denoted by the word 'this,' was before its origination identical with the Self of that which is and that the principle denoted by the term 'the being' (or 'that which is') sent forth fire and the other elements after having thought. The following passage also ('Verily in the beginning all this was Self, one only; there was nothing else blinking whatsoever. He thought, shall I send forth worlds? He sent forth these worlds,' Ait. Âr. II, 4, 1, 2) declares the creation to have had thought for its antecedent. In another passage also (Pr. Up. VI, 3) it is said of the person of sixteen parts, 'He thought, &c. He sent forth Prâna.' By 'seeing' (i.e. the verb 'seeing' exhibited in the Sûtra) is not meant that particular verb only, but any verbs which have a cognate sense; just as the verb 'to sacrifice' is used to denote any kind of offering. Therefore other passages also whose purport it is to intimate that an all-knowing Lord is the cause of the world are to be quoted here, as, for instance, Mu. Up. I,.1, 9, 'From him who perceives all and who knows all, whose brooding consists of knowledge, from him is born that Brahman, name and form and food.'
The argumentation of the Sânkhyas that the pradhâna may be called all-knowing on account of knowledge constituting an attribute of the guna Goodness is inadmissible. For as in the pradhâna-condition the three gunas are in a state of equipoise, knowledge which is a quality of Goodness only is not possible 1. Nor can we admit the explanation that the pradhâna is all-knowing because endowed with the capacity for all knowledge. For if, in the condition of equipoise of the gunas, we term the pradhâna all-knowing with reference to the power of knowledge residing in Goodness, we must likewise term it little-knowing, with reference to the power impeding knowledge which resides in Passion and Darkness.

p. 49
[SIZE=-2][paragraph continues][/SIZE] Moreover a modification of Goodness which is not connected with a witnessing (observing) principle (sâkshin) is not called knowledge, and the non-intelligent pradhâna is destitute of such a principle. It is therefore impossible to ascribe to the pradhâna all-knowingness. The case of the Yogins finally does not apply to the point under consideration; for as they possess intelligence, they may, owing to an excess of Goodness in their nature, rise to omniscience 1.--Well then (say those Sânkhyas who believe in the existence of a Lord) let us assume that the pradhâna possesses the quality of knowledge owing to the witnessing principle (the Lord), just as the quality of burning is imparted to an iron ball by fire.--No, we reply; for if this were so, it would be more reasonable to assume that that which is the cause of the pradhâna having the quality of thought i.e. the all-knowing primary Brahman itself is the cause of the world.
The objection that to Brahman also all-knowingness in its primary sense cannot be ascribed because, if the activity of cognition were permanent, Brahman could not be considered as independent with regard to it, we refute as follows. In what way, we ask the Sânkhya, is Brahman's all-knowingness interfered with by a permanent cognitional activity? To maintain that he, who possesses eternal knowledge capable to throw light on all objects, is not all-knowing, is contradictory. If his knowledge were considered non-permanent, he would know sometimes, and sometimes he would not know; from which it would follow indeed that he is not all-knowing. This fault is however avoided if we admit Brahman's knowledge to be permanent.--But, it may be objected, on this latter alternative the knower cannot be designated as independent with reference to the act of knowing.--Why not? we reply; the sun also, although his heat and light are permanent, is nevertheless designated as independent

p. 50
when we say, 'he burns, he gives light 1.'--But, it will again be objected, we say that the sun burns or gives light when he stands in relation to some object to be heated or illuminated; Brahman, on the other hand, stands, before the creation of the world, in no relation to any object of knowledge. The cases are therefore not parallel.--This objection too, we reply, is not valid; for as a matter of fact we speak of the Sun as an agent, saying 'the sun shines' even without reference to any object illuminated by him, and hence Brahman also may be spoken of as an agent, in such passages as 'it thought,' &c., even without reference to any object of knowledge. If, however, an object is supposed to be required ('knowing' being a transitive verb while 'shining' is intransitive), the texts ascribing thought to Brahman will fit all the better.--What then is that object to which the knowledge of the Lord can refer previously to the origin of the world?--Name and form, we reply, which can be defined neither as being identical with Brahman nor as different from it, unevolved but about to be evolved. For if, as the adherents of the Yoga-sâstra assume, the Yogins have a perceptive knowledge of the past and the future through the favour of the Lord; in what terms shall we have to speak of the eternal cognition of the ever pure Lord himself, whose objects are the creation, subsistence, and dissolution of the world! The objection that Brahman, previously to the origin of the world, is not able to think because it is not connected with a body, &c. does not apply; for Brahman, whose nature is eternal cognition--as the sun's nature is eternal luminousness--

p. 51
can impossibly stand in need of any instruments of knowledge. The transmigrating soul (samsârin) indeed, which is under the sway of Nescience, &c., may require a body in order that knowledge may arise in it; but not so the Lord, who is free from all impediments of knowledge. The two following Mantras also declare that the Lord does not require a body, and that his knowledge is without any obstructions. 'There is no effect and no instrument known of him, no one is seen like unto him or better; his high power is revealed as manifold, as inherent, acting as knowledge and force.' 'Grasping without hands, hasting without feet, he sees without eyes, he hears without ears. He knows what can be known, but no one knows him; they call him the first, the great person' (Sv. Up. VI, 8; III, 19).
But, to raise a new objection, there exists no transmigrating soul different from the Lord and obstructed by impediments of knowledge; for Sruti expressly declares that 'there is no other seer but he; there is no other knower but he' (Bri. Up. Ill, 7, 23). How then can it be said that the origination of knowledge in the transmigrating soul depends on a body, while it does not do so in the case of the Lord?--True, we reply. There is in reality no transmigrating soul different from the Lord. Still the connexion (of the Lord) with limiting adjuncts, consisting of bodies and so on, is assumed, just as we assume the ether to enter into connexion with divers limiting adjuncts such as jars, pots, caves, and the like. And just as in consequence of connexion of the latter kind such conceptions and terms as 'the hollow (space) of a jar,' &c. are generally current, although the space inside a jar is not really different from universal space, and just as in consequence thereof there generally prevails the false notion that there are different spaces such as the space of a jar and so on; so there prevails likewise the false notion that the Lord and the transmigrating soul are different; a notion due to the non-discrimination of the (unreal) connexion of the soul with the limiting conditions, consisting of the body and so on. That the Self, although in reality the only existence, imparts the quality of Selfhood to bodies and the like
p. 52
which are Not-Self is a matter of observation, and is due to mere wrong conception, which depends in its turn on antecedent wrong conception. And the consequence of the soul thus involving itself in the transmigratory state is that its thought depends on a body and the like.
The averment that the pradhâna, because consisting of several elements, can, like clay and similar substances, occupy the place of a cause while the uncompounded Brahman cannot do so, is refuted by the fact of the pradhâna not basing on Scripture. That, moreover, it is possible to establish by argumentation the causality of Brahman, but not of the pradhâna and similar principles, the Sûtrakâra will set forth in the second Adhyâya (II, I, 4, &c.).
Here the Sânkhya comes forward with a new objection. The difficulty stated by you, he says, viz. that the non-intelligent pradhâna cannot be the cause of the world, because thought is ascribed to the latter in the sacred texts, can be got over in another way also, viz. on the ground that non-intelligent things are sometimes figuratively spoken of as intelligent beings. We observe, for instance, that people say of a river-bank about to fall, 'the bank is inclined to fall (pipatishati),' and thus speak of a non-intelligent bank as if it possessed intelligence. So the pradhâna also, although non-intelligent, may, when about to create, be figuratively spoken of as thinking. Just as in ordinary life some intelligent person after having bathed, and dined, and formed the purpose of driving in the afternoon to his village, necessarily acts according to his purpose, so the pradhâna also acts by the necessity of its own nature, when transforming itself into the so-called great principle and the subsequent forms of evolution; it may therefore figuratively be spoken of as intelligent.--But what reason have you for setting aside the primary meaning of the word 'thought' and for taking it in a figurative sense?--The observation, the Sânkhya replies, that fire and water also are figuratively spoken of as intelligent beings in the two following scriptural passages, 'That fire thought; that water thought' (Kh. Up. VI, 2, 3; 4). We therefrom conclude that thought is to be taken in a figurative sense there
p. 53
also where Being (Sat) is the agent, because it is mentioned in a chapter where (thought) is generally taken in a figurative sense 1.
There are more verses sir, but I will stop here with one example
 
namaste shrI Sangom and others.



I understand that Shankara wrote vivaraNa for vyAsa-bhAShya on Patanjali maharShi's yoga-sUtras. Any idea if in this work Shankara refutes the yoga view or gives an advaitic interpretation of them?

Ashtanga Yoga: Practice and Philosophy - Google Books

Dear Shri Saidevo,

Mr. Gregor Maehle's book itself states that there is a question as to the authenticity of the Vivarana, the subcommentary on the Yoga Sutras. It is stated by V.Panoli, whom I regard as a scholar (from Kerala, lest the name smells foreign) on Sankara's works, with no axe to grind, that out of about 115 different books - 15 bhashyas and the rest "prakarana granthas" - only 12 bhashyas are universally accepted as Sankara's works, though some interpolations are suspected even in those, because such interpolations stand out prominently. As to the rest, while some may be Sankara's own works, it is also possible that others might have used the name "sankaraachaarya virachita" simply in order to get attention to their works, without bothering to see whether their work contradicts Sankara's views; some may be conscious works of his disciples in the Sankaracharya parampara and they invariably put "Samkarachaarya virachitha:" without any indication of the name of the Acharya, period/date, or the mutt to which they belonged.

In sifting and identifying which are the genuine works of Adi Sankara, one has, therefore, to assume that a personality of his order would not have written contrary to what he writes in his "Prasthaanathraya Bhashyas" for whatever the reasons be.

Brahma Sutra II,1-2-3 states
एतेन योगः प्रत्युक्तः
(Because of this, i.e., because the samkhya smriti has been denied, yoga too should be considered as denied.)

Sankara's comments on this are as follows:

एतेन सांख्यस्मृतिप्रत्याख्यानेन योगस्मृतिरपि प्रत्याख्याता द्रष्टव्येत्यतिदिशति ।

(Because the samkhya-smriti has been denied, the yoga-smriti too is to be understood as denied.)

Again in the Brahma Sutra Bhashya, the Acharya says:

निराकरणं तु न साम्ख्यज्ञानेन वेदनिरपेक्षॆण योगमार्गेण वा निःश्रेयसमधिगम्यत इति ।
(The denial is to show that neither through the knowledge of samkhya, nor through the path of yoga, (which are) independent of the vedas, liberation is attained.)

In vivekachudamani, 56 again Sankara says:
न योगेन न साम्ख्येन कर्मणा नॊ न विद्यया ।
ब्रह्मात्मैकत्व बोधेन मोक्षः सिद्ध्यति नान्यथा ॥

(Neither by yoga, nor by samkhya, nor by karma, nor by erudition, but by (constant) awareness of the unity of the self and brahman, is liberation attained, not by any other means.)

The above are excerpted and slightly condensed from "Adi Sankara's Vision Of Reality" by Vidyavachaspati V. Panoli.

Having said repeatedly that yoga is not a means to liberation, it will be for individuals to decide whether the same Sankara would/could have written a vivarana text on the yoga sutra. I for one do not think he would.
 
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/script...xposition-doubts-discussions-3.html#post75552




While you are very much within your rights to believe whatever you want, about the vedas, is it not a general trend, if not rule, to take into account the general opinion on any matter, before one forms one's own considered view about it? In that respect will it not be correct to find out why even your close relations, who I believe must have "some" knowledge of the vedas, hold that it has a non-scientific face?
Sir a person who accepts the principles of modern science is more interested in the general views of scientists and what is published by established journals.

Spirituality if a far more abstract subject and people who believe in possibilities that exist beyond material world would certainly seek the general opinion of specialized spiritual practioners more so those who tested and continue to practice worship based on vedas.
am aware that extra-sensory communication powers are presumed for our ṛṣis by people who believe that those ṛṣis enjoyed superhuman powers and abilities, which you also possibly concur with. If that were true, those vedic ṛṣis need not have taken the trouble to depend on this unreliable communication by word of mouth; instead they could have simply communicated all the mantras with their esoteric, or, real meaning, to their disciples and passed on among the lineage
Sir it has certainly been many thousand years since the time of rishis. How would you know that in the ancient times, they did not reveal the meanings and pass it on to a lineage. We do have a lineage which manages to preserve the words as they were said or almost, and they have managed to preserve a rough understanding of the language the message was revealed in. Is it not the society's fault that they have failed to preserve the same degree of mental capacity to be able to understand the words as in the earlier eras. If knowledge is passed without uttering them as a word, then how would you know if some one invents a new bogus experience and passes it on as a lineage. The words or rather sounds and the understanding of their meaning is the only possibility left in ensuring that bogus experiences are not passed on.

I would request you to delve into the meaning of "dhiyo yo naḥ pracodayāt" in this context. The word धी means pious ; wishing to understand, thought, idea, notion, intention; understanding, wisdom, intellect, intelligence, intellectual power, mind ; knowledge, etc. It does not pray for impelling the mental ability.
Sir all the different words that you have used are not synonyms in english.
Iyer, you seem to talk on generalities whereas the posts by Shri saidevo and myself are still available for you to go through and for your considered views about what/who was saying correct or wrong. It will help both of us, the forum readers and all, if you kindly give your comments after reading those posts. .
Sir I did indeed make a general statement and it is applicable to anybody in the present, past and future. I did not mean this as a critiscism. I will certainly make my comments on atleast a few of them, but it is my understanding that saidevo's and your effort is an ongoing process and you are still translating the rig veda.
For me, and in this discussion, for you too, Iyer, I believe the issue is not whether the vedas contain "irrational statements (in relation to modern science)", but whether the contents of the vedas give the unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency throughout so as to justify the belief among some brahmans about their "apauruṣeyatva", inerrancy, mystic meanings of all verses, etc. Hence I do not think it is necessary to be rationally evolved but to be ready to use one's capacity to cogitate impartially, which is all that is required.
Sir we need to first establish that all objects that make up the conception of world and universe including thought, feelings and of course matter, can originate from unconscious substances.
If that is established and if it is found to be true, the arguments end there.
If that is not established, then it needs to be established if the nature of consciousness can be proven using the object of senses.
If such things are not possible to prove immediately then we should atleast go by some common understanding , accepting statements agreeable to both of us. Then we should discuss and find out whose opinion is contradictory to the common understanding. Sir it is only then we will come to a common understanding of what is correct. Right now these lines of commonality are not clear to me, and we are discussing things from different vantage points. For instance what are the basis on which you will reach a conclusion on this "vedas give the unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency ". Are we sure we have an agreement on this? If not what are the minimum things to agree before we argue on this?
 
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For instance what are the basis on which you will reach a conclusion on this "vedas give the unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency ". Are we sure we have an agreement on this? If not what are the minimum things to agree before we argue on this?

Dear Shri Iyer,

I agree that our points of view are different, even contrarian. So, perhaps further discussion may not lead either of us to any meeting point with the other. Even so, I am interested to know what evidence, internally from the vedas themselves and not someone else's certificate, you propose to prove the above assertion, viz.,"vedas give the unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency " (emphasis mine).


 
Dear Shri Iyer,

I agree that our points of view are different, even contrarian. So, perhaps further discussion may not lead either of us to any meeting point with the other. Even so, I am interested to know what evidence, internally from the vedas themselves and not someone else's certificate, you propose to prove the above assertion, viz.,"vedas give the unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency " (emphasis mine).


so, perhaps further discussion may not lead either of us to any meeting point with the other
Sir that is already not true both you and I agree that the current translations give rise to a non scientific face of vedas. It is only in subsequent steps that we diverge so definately there is some common ground. It is only to understand what further common ground can be established.
you propose to prove the above assertion, viz.,vedas give the unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency.
Sir this is taking a problem to a more advanced step when smaller levels of the problem have to be themselves resolved.
1. Is there evidence of unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency in everything we do? We need the right arguments to prove or disprove this claim
2. Then once 1 is resolved the next question is what is so different from vedas and the effects it is supposed to have from the experiences in mundane life. Are there really any differences at all?. What should be exactly those differences that qualify vedas as a special subject and not a mundane subject consisting of common sayings and common utterances and common sciences.
The reason there is link between 1 and 2, is that if 1 is resolved, the arguments used to resolve 1 will be important in clearly defining arguments for 2. And the answer to both statements will clearly define whether vedas deserve a special status or not.

I am not saying these two statements for argument sake, but even if we cant agree with each other's positions it will bring to light many of the hidden assumptions we have.
I would like to sir, hear from you, your views on 1 first and then once you resolve 1, I would like to hear your view on 2.
 
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Dear Shri pviyer, if you think it is alright let us dispense with "sir" or "shri" when you address me, we are all brothers and sisters, let us feel free to be less formal. I will respect your preference on this matter.
As you please, just as I was contemplating is there a common origin in the two words sir and shri, i dont know. I might still use these words now and then , and intellectually it balances the male dominated concepts of the society, by invoking Lakshmi as a form of respect for anyone and everyone.

However, I find the present-day SV acharyas to be quite petty, sectarian, and overly castiest.
Even little bit of spiritual experience can make someone haughty. It is no different from the ego displayed by any other normal person when he attains some position, some power or some knowledge. I personally want to see the +sides and take the + from them. Let us contemplate on the negative sides and see how we can avoid them and contemplate on how we can adopt the + side. Anyway it is your experience , so I will not comment on anyone. But I have seen very orthodox sri vaishnavas(ritualistically), conceptually okay with sacred thread to non brahmins.So I am not sure if they fit in the same indistinguishable class.

When you and brother Saidevo say there is something called the "Absolute Truth" or "higher truth" and it can only be experienced by Yogis whose characteristics are undefined, is it not unreasonable for you to expect me to agree with it?
It is definately unreasonable for us to expect you to agree with it, if we know for sure that you have never unknowingly or unintentionally gained insights and experiences , howsoever little bit it may be, too little to be detected it may be. But that is besides the point.
The problem comes with some definitions adopted by many men of science. These definition are key to explore further on the matter of higher truth. I would like to know your position on the following
1. Is it provable that sensous knowledge( knowledge gained by sense organs ) is sufficient and complete knowledge?
2. Is it provable that we currently have access to all the means and methods to know the complete set of sensuous knowledge.
3. Is it provable that sensuous knowledge is consistent knowledge , that is it does not vary from individual to individual. If so, why should it be consistent. If not so, why should it be inconsistent.
My position is, that which cannot be measured, the best position to take is that of an agnostic, not that of the faithful.
I think this statements suggests some part of your position with respect to the previous clarification, which I have required from you. My answer to that is, it is not necessary as you are talking about the present and not the possibility in the future. My position is that at present certain things are not measurable and in the future they may or may not be measurable.

The position of agnostic is okay if there is sufficient evidence that by being agnostic and disinterested in such propositions of higher truth one of the following is satisfied-
a.you have proof, that the current approaches adopted without taking recourse to revelations , will lead you to understand all that we dont know
b. You have proof, that the current approaches adopted without taking recourse to revelations, will lead you to new evidences, which will highlight alternate approaches required to lead you to understand all that we dont know.
Otherwise isnt the position of agnostic also a blind belief in a concept or approach, for which you dont have proof that it will achieve its stated goal?
Why then the wisdom of different cultures differ so dramatically? The wisdom that was revealed to Mosas required his people to take no other god before Yahweh and to not covet neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey -- that would amount to cardinal sin deserving of eternal banishment in hell (for Christians). The Vedas on the other hand urge you to worship and offer havis to Indra and Agni so that one may ascend to heaven. Given such basic contradictions, your statement that there is concurrence is untenable.
Sir , difference is actually a surprise, because all humans came from one tree. That difference needs to be sufficiently explained and there needs to be sufficiently convincing explanations on when ,how, why ideas in the original humans became different especially when all are from same root. We cant presuppose that a concept came into being only after different sets of humans dispersed. I would say that concurrence is possibly a reflection of common roots of all humans but even that cannot be presupposed. Concurrence neither proves nor disproves the validity of a concept, just as variance neither proves nor disproves the validity of a concept. If something was discovered and experienced somewhere by some methods, a more valid question is to ask, did others try the same methods and get a different result, and if so how much were those differences, and why those differences, and to what extent the methods were similar or dissimilar.
so be it, but don't you think it is fast becoming the land of McDonalds?
How do the two have any relation to each other. Yoga was a method for contemplation and McDonalds was a method for getting fattened quickly.

Whatever may be the reason, to get to meditate does not mean one has the passkey to Absolute Truth.
Sir meditation is an important form of contemplation,because it fundamentally tries to understand what portion of one's mind is affected by sensuous objects and what portion is not by trying to focus attention on oneself rather than focus all attention on others and other's views. Anything that attempts on self contemplation of oneself by trying to prevent distraction to sensuous objects and information guided by sense organs, can be called meditation.
What I am objecting to is only the claim that they are rational.
I have no where said they sound rational. But that is not a ground for dismissing something unless you can prove that the effects that it supposedly claims to do, if it is done the way it is supposed to be done,cannot happen the way it is supposed to happen or you can prove that you have already sufficient means to know the subjects that it can explore and to reach a conclusion on the validity of these subjects, without taking recourse to it.
 
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Dear Shri Iyer,

You have raised a question but then you go on to describe it as a claim. That is not clear to me pl.
Sir, pardon me for making this not very clear. We have a statement.
"There is an unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency in everything we do? " What is your position with regard to this and what are the arguments u would make supporting your view.I think I know your position but I would like to hear your arguments
 
Dear pviyer,

As the dialog proceeds we often loose track of the starting point. So, please permit me to refocus what our root disagreement is. I give below a sentence from your post #19 under this thread:
"None of what I said can be proven but it is not weird and irrational as it is being made out to be."
This was about the claim of "apaurusheya" for the Brahminical Vedas. My point is, yes, this claim is indeed weird and irrational. None of what you have presented so far speaks to this issue. The main purport of your arguments is, if I may succinctly paraphrase, that I can't prove with certainty that they are not apauresheya.

But, that is an impossible task -- i.e. to prove a negative. Let me illustrate this with an example. Suppose that I claim I am a yogi and have meditated upon the "Absolute Truth" for many years and have found it and it is a unicorn, pink in color, and is invisible to naked eye or any man-made instrument. I further say to you that this Invisible Pink Unicorn (IPU) can only be experienced through higher level intelligence that comes through intuition. IPU is the Absolute Truth, anything else is mere mithya. Once you experience it you will realize that everything else is unreal, like a reflection that goes away when the substratum is removed. Those who are unable to experience it have not achieved the sufficient level of yogic siddhi, they need to keep meditating.

Now, let us suppose you come along and tell me I am full of baloney and what I am saying is just plain weird and irrational. Then, will you accept and join my IPU religion if I make the same arguments you are presenting in support of your IPU -- the Absolute Truth? The plain and simple answer to this plain and simple question is a big "no".

In the following let me answer the questions you have posed.


... I would like to know your position on the following
1. Is it provable that sensous knowledge( knowledge gained by sense organs ) is sufficient and complete knowledge?
2. Is it provable that we currently have access to all the means and methods to know the complete set of sensuous knowledge.
3. Is it provable that sensuous knowledge is consistent knowledge , that is it does not vary from individual to individual. If so, why should it be consistent. If not so, why should it be inconsistent.
My considered answer to all three questions is "no".

The position of agnostic is okay if there is sufficient evidence that by being agnostic and disinterested in such propositions of higher truth one of the following is satisfied-
a.you have proof, that the current approaches adopted without taking recourse to revelations , will lead you to understand all that we dont know
b. You have proof, that the current approaches adopted without taking recourse to revelations, will lead you to new evidences, which will highlight alternate approaches required to lead you to understand all that we dont know.
Otherwise isnt the position of agnostic also a blind belief in a concept or approach, for which you dont have proof that it will achieve its stated goal?
First, I would like to clarify the sense in which I used the word "agnostic". Gnostic is possessing knowledge and a-gnostic is not possessing knowledge. The context in which I used this word, in my post #35, is as follows:
My own view is one of a skeptic, I am ready to believe anything, but first, prove it to me, or prove it to someone who has a track record of accepting as truth only that which can be verified -- i.e. scientific community. If not, at best I can only be an agnostic.
The very fact that one is having to be an agnostic shows lack of knowledge. If I can prove something, one way or another, I can't be an agnostic anymore, I will be a believer or non-believer.

There were no questions in the rest of your presentation. I have already said all I have to say, so let me stop here. I will be happy to address any other issue you may want to raise.

Cheers!
 
Sir, pardon me for making this not very clear. We have a statement.
"There is an unmistakable impression of the work of some superhuman agency in everything we do? " What is your position with regard to this and what are the arguments u would make supporting your view.I think I know your position but I would like to hear your arguments
Dear Shri Iyer,

My answer is "No" to the sentence with the question mark. As for arguments in support of my view, I find that Shri Nara has already explained the position very lucidly in post # 65 above. Any text or corpus transmitted orally or by means of the written medium is man-made. Hence, it is for those who claim "apourusheyatva" of the vedas to present satisfactory evidence from the contents of such text/corpus (not endorsements by others) to prove that 'apourusheyatva'. Since I deny this and hold the view that "apourusheyatva" is not present in the vedas, I don't have to prove the non-existence of something. It is for you to prove the "apourusheyatva".
 
Dear pviyer,

As the dialog proceeds we often loose track of the starting point. So, please permit me to refocus what our root disagreement is. I give below a sentence from your post #19 under this thread:
"None of what I said can be proven but it is not weird and irrational as it is being made out to be."
This was about the claim of "apaurusheya" for the Brahminical Vedas. My point is, yes, this claim is indeed weird and irrational.
Sir I was very much aware of this statement I made when I made the subsequent statement in this context.
Re-Read I said "it is not as irrational as it is made out to be"
I later said "I did not say sounds rational"
There is a difference in quality caused by the immediate conclusions that would be made if we neglect other things. I will bring back the topic on the principle of quality when you answer some of my other questions. Let us park this here and make it a point to revisit later.
The main purport of your arguments is, if I may succinctly paraphrase, that I can't prove with certainty that they are not apauresheya.
No Sir, I did not mean it that way. I want to disprove the statements that it is unwise to be accepting the apaurusheya concept of vedas and trying to live life by that. Again mark the difference between the two statements the one u have made and the one I have made.You may not disprove something with certainity but you can make a strong case that it is stupid and unwise.
Those who are unable to experience it have not achieved the sufficient level of yogic siddhi, they need to keep meditating.
Sir it may sound unlike a unrealistic thing to disprove but if the yogi really wants you to experience the same goal, he will not leave it like that. He will be able to leave ample statements on the steps to follow and also provide inspirations to people who differ from his approach in reaching intermediary goals at least where they have a better glimpse of the argument, rather than from the point of staying at ground level. The different milestones as we may call them.

Now, let us suppose you come along and tell me I am full of baloney and what I am saying is just plain weird and irrational. Then, will you accept and join my IPU religion if I make the same arguments you are presenting in support of your IPU -- the Absolute Truth? The plain and simple answer to this plain and simple question is a big "no".
Pardon me I am not sure what you are implying here.
My considered answer to all three questions is "no".
I will revert back to this when I have finished answering the rest of your views.

My own view is one of a skeptic, I am ready to believe anything, but first, prove it to me, or prove it to someone who has a track record of accepting as truth only that which can be verified -- i.e. scientific community. If not, at best I can only be an agnostic.
Sir let us not jump the boat ,are you talking of neurologist, geologists, botanist, chemist or physist. Let us first find out what skillsets are required to analyze a subject and then decide who must decide. You may be clear but we need to be explicit in defining something.
The very fact that one is having to be an agnostic shows lack of knowledge. If I can prove something, one way or another, I can't be an agnostic anymore, I will be a believer or non-believer.
Point is well appreciated.
 
My considered answer to all three questions is "no".

1. Is it provable that sensous knowledge( knowledge gained by sense organs ) is sufficient and complete knowledge?
Your answer is no
that means you allow the possibility that there can be a non-sensuous knowledge.
I will define non-sensuous knowledge as any knowledge gained without using information gathered by sense organs.
Then my next question is- If there is such a knowledge how would you choose to disprove it or seek proof for it in terms of scientific instruments and sense organs for observation. So how can the skill of a scientist be useful in this context?


2. Is it provable that we currently have access to all the means and methods to know the complete set of sensuous knowledge.
You said no- I understand that this is lines with your position of an agnostic. When this is the case, why would you insist on a concept fitting the means of senses. If you dont what are the concepts that it must fulfil before you accept them to be true. So suppose you were presented with a truth that has a feature that can not be explored using methods you know,how would you know if it is true or false. If further the statement is that this truth must be experienced by following a certain approach, on what basis you would reject or accept it, when you have neither the means nor the methods to evaluate it?

3. Is it provable that sensuous knowledge is consistent knowledge , that is it does not vary from individual to individual. If so, why should it be consistent. If not so, why should it be inconsistent.
You said no if that is so what are the means by which you will reject the experiences of different people in the world. I again understand that this may suit your purpose of an agnostic. That means you allow the possibility that sensuous knowledge can be inconsistent. If sensuous knowledge can be inconsistent what are the means you will use to accept that something is true or false. There must be something absolutely consistent without using which you cannot possibly qualify something as true or false. You loose the authority to even accept something unless you dont hold on to something that can be proven to be consistent.
 
Dear pviyer,

I offer below some clarifications.

...Re-Read I said "it is not as irrational as it is made out to be"
So, do you agree that your POV in these matters is indeed weird and irrational, but only not to the extent we are making it out to be? If so, the difference between us is one of degree, not essence. In this case we have agreement. Sorry I saw a difference of essence.


No Sir, I did not mean it that way. I want to disprove the statements that it is unwise to be accepting the apaurusheya concept of vedas and trying to live life by that.
This, seems to be, a distinction without a difference. You want to disprove that it is not unwise to hold these views that you concede are weird and irrational at least to some degree.

Sir it may sound unlike a unrealistic thing to disprove but if the yogi really wants you to experience the same goal, he will not leave it like that.
I can do the same for my IPU as well. The problem is not the process, it the very idea of believing in an IPU.


1. .Then my next question is- If there is such a knowledge how would you choose to disprove it or seek proof for it in terms of scientific instruments and sense organs for observation. So how can the skill of a scientist be useful in this context?
A thing being possible does not necessarily mean it is probable. You asked me three questions for which I gave "no" as my answer. Now let me state another question for which I would have given the same "no" as the answer for the same reason. That question is, whether I can definitively prove that there is no celestial teapot circling the sun between Earth and Mars? (h/t Bertrand Russell) Of course I cannot.

My position in these matters is as follows: human knowledge may never be perfect, and therefore there may always be something that may remain beyond human comprehension. But, to make a definitive claim like validity of the Absolute Truth and our ability to experience it, you must demonstrate it in a way that human intellect is able to observe, measure, and validate. If you can't, then there is no way to even know there is something called the Absolute Truth. Can I prove definitively that this Absolute Truth does not exist, of course not, in the same way I cannot definitively prove Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot does not exist. But I have nothing to prove, that responsibility is that of people making these supernatural claims.


2. Is it provable that we currently have access to all the means and methods to know the complete set of sensuous knowledge.
You said no- I understand that this is lines with your position of an agnostic. When this is the case, why would you insist on a concept fitting the means of senses.
That is the only way anybody can make a definitive statement. If you can't observe using our senses, there is no way anyone can make a definitive statement about the existence of the Absolute Truth. This is why an independent authority is needed, namely Vedas. To make it inerrant, it has to be apaurusheya. But the problem is, this just shifts logical untenability from the Absolute truth to the apauresheya of vedas.


3. Is it provable that sensuous knowledge is consistent knowledge , that is it does not vary from individual to individual. If so, why should it be consistent. If not so, why should it be inconsistent.
You said no if that is so what are the means by which you will reject the experiences of different people in the world. I again understand that this may suit your purpose of an agnostic. That means you allow the possibility that sensuous knowledge can be inconsistent.
Once again, this does not mean an entity called the Absolute Truth exists and it may be experienced in an inconsistent way by different people. The burden of proof is upon those who make these claims. All you can reasonably expect from the rest of us is to give you a fair and open-minded hearing.

Since the dawn of man these claims have been made and believed as well. As verifiable human knowledge expanded, these supernatural claims have been made to recede into areas outside the realm of human knowledge. These claims can exist only in the dark nethers where the light of human knowledge is yet to reach.

Cheers!
 
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Dear pviyer,

I offer below some clarifications.


So, do you agree that your POV in these matters is indeed weird and irrational, but only not to the extent we are making it out to be? If so, the difference between us is one of degree, not essence. In this case we have agreement. Sorry I saw a difference of essence.
No Sir, I said they sound irrational at first glance or to put in the other words I used they are not as irrational as they seem, especially when in comparison to other approaches and the confidence which they advocate the same.
That question is, whether I can definitively prove that there is no celestial teapot circling the sun between Earth and Mars? (h/t Bertrand Russell) Of course I cannot.
Sir you must be clear why you cannot.

A thing being possible does not necessarily mean it is probable.
Sir, that is besides the question , if something is possible, it is only because
a) either you dont have any means to determine its probable percentage
b)it has a non zero probability of occurence
Whether or not it is a or b, you have no way of saying without basis that the event cannot occur or evidences in favor of the event to occur. So you must be prepared to answer the question how does the skillset of a scientist become useful in evaluation the truth or false or even for that matter relative unlikeliness of it truth.
For example
prove that there is no celestial teapot circling the sun between Earth and Mars
the first thing that you would do in evaluating this statement is see how different the subject of teapot encircling a sun is different from the subject on earth encircling the sun. Then you would analyze the different methods and concepts which you will use to prove that something encircles the sun for example a known object earth.Then you will analyze why these methods and concepts cannot be used with regard to teapot. If they can then you will have a clear methodology to capture this possibility and its likelihoodness in the face of different concepts of science. It might mean that so many laws of physics will no longer hold true if a teapot encircles the sun. Which might mean that your aeroplane cannot fly but your aeroplane flies. Therefore you are still in a position to make strong recommendations. But yes if we cannot find obvious contradictions to the laws of physics which are responsible for more observable events, then we have to assume a good possibility that teapot encircles the sun.
I can do the same for my IPU as well. The problem is not the process, it the very idea of believing in an IPU.
Sir you have to qualify the subject and whether it matches the expertise of the person who can judge its ridiculousness and whether it can certainly be mapped to the methods that are available with the person who makes the judgment. Otherwise it is plain thin air. The very idea of considering an idea to be ridiculous.
My position in these matters is as follows: human knowledge may never be perfect, and therefore there may always be something that may remain beyond human comprehension. But, to make a definitive claim like validity of the Absolute Truth and our ability to experience it, you must demonstrate it in a way that human intellect is able to observe, measure, and validate.
Sir already you have made an assumption that the human intellect can always observe only certain things, measure only certain things and validate only certain things. Nobody is asking you to accept things from the drop of a hat, but the mere idea of sitting in arakonam and making fun of someone who has claimed to have met an arabian, that people in arabia wear a long dress, just because you have not seen one, is ridiculous. There should be more sound reasons than that.
If you can't observe using our senses, there is no way anyone can make a definitive statement about the existence of the Absolute Truth. This is why an independent authority is needed, namely Vedas. To make it inerrant, it has to be apaurusheya. But the problem is, this just shifts logical untenability from the Absolute truth to the apauresheya of vedas.
Sir this is a big statement considering the fact that you assume you dont have means of evaluating the validity of the statement. I have only referred to the fact that your presently deployed means is not good enough to evaluate the validity of things of a non sensuous nature.
Once again, this does not mean an entity called the Absolute Truth exists and it may be experienced in an inconsistent way by different people. The burden of proof is upon those who make these claims. All you can reasonably expect from the rest of us is to give you a fair and open-minded hearing.
Sir first you need to prove that you have something consistent by which you can judge things. The right to be able to judge is an important thing in this matter. When that is not clear, how can you make lofty claims on whether or not something is stupid or is definately irrational. This does not mean you can never judge things, but your current process has not enabled you to judge such matters of non sensual origin. My answered to this is in the same lines of the previous para
 
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Coming back to the original question on the nature of vedas, in continuation with my previous post, I am entering a more controversial ground. But I would like to make some statements and would like to see how Sri Nara would assume his capability to pass a recommendation to others , on these statements or pass a judgement on the same.
1. There is no proof that anything in the universe exists beyond the time frame it is observed by some conscious entity.
2. consciousness has some kind of knowledge for observing something.
3. The role of non consciousness being the primary reason for existence of something is a commonly held fanatic view, but there is not an aorta of proof.
4. conscious being with its accompanied knowledge,is only responsible for observing something.
5. conscious being and knowledge by their own state cannot observe something unless there is a desire to observe. How did this desire come we dont know.
6. But the desire when it is felt by this conscious being can be called a thought. Thought should be accompanied by some knowledge to accomplish something.
7. thought must have a language. a language has a set of words. words must have an intensity , a quality of frequency. In other words words with intensity and frequency are the fundamental units of a thought, or a thought can be measured and quantified using these terms. Therefore words with intensity and frequency must be the fundamental reason for observing something. Therefore what we observe is dependent on the words , the frequency and their intensity.
8. Based on statement 7, I can make a statement that if I want another person to observe the phenomenon on what I observe exactly, I must note down the intensity and frequency of every word that makes up my thought, then use some channel of communication for passing on that word. I can pass the words in a medium of paper, that does not convey the intensity and frequency in exactness to what was in my head. We have two organs - the ear and the mouth. Both can deal with sound one for production and another for reception. Therefore this is indeed a suitable means because it can promote imitation if I carefully put my words in a sound form.

 
Dear Shri Iyer,

In regard to your 3 questions on sensuous (means, taking delight in beauty; a better term may be sense-related) knowledge, I feel it is like this for an agnostic. Even if there are phenomena or "truths" beyond what Man today can verify and accept with his sense organs, it will become "knowledge" only when these truths/phenomena are made detectable, measurable and/or verifiable by senses through the use of suitable material implements such as tools, instruments, etc. Till then those supposed phenomena (like the "Absolute Truth, Parabrahman, etc.," will be conjectures only. Hence there is every case for people to take up "scientific" enquiry into those areas. But to go by what religious scriptures say and to blindly believe them, is not correct. It will be like what the old Amitabh Bachan song said, "khai ke paan banaaras wala; khul jaaye band akal ka taala" (Let the intellect get unlocked after eating the banaarasi paan.)

The Vadivelu comedy in which he makes a lot of money telling people that he would show Murugan at a certain place and time, should be an eye-opener for all of us, IMO :)
 
Dear Shri Iyer,
it will become "knowledge" only when these truths/phenomena are made detectable, measurable and/or verifiable by senses through the use of suitable material implements such as tools, instruments, etc.
Sir I would be more than impressed if you can prove such a statement or disprove its converse or atleast indicate that if the converse were argued to be true that is the nonsensual knowledge were argued to be true, how would you be in a position to test its validity or atleast prove that sensual knowledge is complete knowledge.
 
Sir I would be more than impressed if you can prove such a statement or disprove its converse or atleast indicate that if the converse were argued to be true that is the nonsensual knowledge were argued to be true, how would you be in a position to test its validity or atleast prove that sensual knowledge is complete knowledge.

Shri Iyer,

You are just taking part of a sentence and asking for proof therefor. It is a generally accepted maxim that it requires at least a full sentence to express an idea completely. So, here I give the full sentence (from my post # 72) for the information of readers:—

"Even if there are phenomena or "truths" beyond what Man today can verify and accept with his sense organs, it will become "knowledge" only when these truths/phenomena are made detectable, measurable and/or verifiable by senses through the use of suitable material implements such as tools, instruments, etc. Till then those supposed phenomena (like the "Absolute Truth, Parabrahman, etc.," will be conjectures only."


Regarding "nonsensual knowledge were argued to be true
", such non-sense-related (pun incidental, not intended) is not knowledge from my pov despite whatever argument may be advanced to prove it. In this context the examples of the coffee cup revolving the sun, the pink unicorn, etc., cited by Shri Nara in his posts my please be seen. Hence the question of arguing to prove them does not arise; if the existence of these can be proved by demonstrating to others by experimental means, then it becomes a part of knowledge; still it can be challenged till the existence or otherwise becomes an established fact for those who would like to see those "physical" evidence/s.

BTW, if god/creator/nature - whatever you posit as the ultimate truth, or creator of Man - really wanted the human beings to live by "
non-sense-related" knowledge, or some special kind of knowledge, other than those possible for the senses available to humans, why is it that the ability of such special knowledge has not been built into the human anatomy? To me it is sufficient proof that humans have been made by the so-called creator (I will prefer to say, evolution has made humans) only to live by their sense-related knowledge. The physical or modern sciences which depend only on verification by senses and intellect, have been able to change the primitive man who did not even know how to make fire, to the present stage. What has been the contribution of the "non-sense-related" knowledge systems during the same period? How have they benefited mankind in any way? These are the points to be pondered upon.
 
Shri Iyer,

You are just taking part of a sentence and asking for proof therefor. It is a generally accepted maxim that it requires at least a full sentence to express an idea completely. So, here I give the full sentence (from my post # 72) for the information of readers:—

"Even if there are phenomena or "truths" beyond what Man today can verify and accept with his sense organs, it will become "knowledge" only when these truths/phenomena are made detectable, measurable and/or verifiable by senses through the use of suitable material implements such as tools, instruments, etc. Till then those supposed phenomena (like the "Absolute Truth, Parabrahman, etc.," will be conjectures only."


Regarding "nonsensual knowledge were argued to be true
", such non-sense-related (pun incidental, not intended) is not knowledge from my pov despite whatever argument may be advanced to prove it. In this context the examples of the coffee cup revolving the sun, the pink unicorn, etc., cited by Shri Nara in his posts my please be seen. Hence the question of arguing to prove them does not arise; if the existence of these can be proved by demonstrating to others by experimental means, then it becomes a part of knowledge; still it can be challenged till the existence or otherwise becomes an established fact for those who would like to see those "physical" evidence/s.

BTW, if god/creator/nature - whatever you posit as the ultimate truth, or creator of Man - really wanted the human beings to live by "
non-sense-related" knowledge, or some special kind of knowledge, other than those possible for the senses available to humans, why is it that the ability of such special knowledge has not been built into the human anatomy? To me it is sufficient proof that humans have been made by the so-called creator (I will prefer to say, evolution has made humans) only to live by their sense-related knowledge. The physical or modern sciences which depend only on verification by senses and intellect, have been able to change the primitive man who did not even know how to make fire, to the present stage. What has been the contribution of the "non-sense-related" knowledge systems during the same period? How have they benefited mankind in any way? These are the points to be pondered upon.
Sir I have given my reply to the teacup. I think I need an answer why this cannot be proven or disproven. What is there in that subject, wherein you cannot say you cannot prove it or disprove it?

You have presumed than non-sense related knowledge does not exist among us. I can give you an example and this is a non solved problem of science precisely because the scientists have refused to acknowledge its category. But I want to preserve the indication of this knowledge until my questions are addressed.
 
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