Shiva and Vishnu

[sravna]

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Shiva and Vishnu are the two major Gods that Hindus worship. Shiva is considered as one who destroys and Vishnu as one who preserves. I would like to add my thoughts to this depiction of Shiva and Vishnu.

The purpose of God is to maintain dharma and destroy adharma when it becomes prevalent. While Shiva plays his part by destroying the physical and not letting it exist forever, Vishnu plays his role by working on the mental to make it fit. In the former the propagation of adharma is stemmed and in the latter case the sustenance of dharma is facilitated.

The above interpretation of Vishnu's role seems logical because if he is the preserver, he safeguards only the mental aspect. If he were to protect the physical aspect then it goes against the role of Shiva. I do not know if in the scriptures, this import to the role of Vishnu is indicated.

Also, though we have Vishnu coming as avatars and destroying people, it is the principle of Shiva that is working in such destruction. It would also seem more logical for the principle of Vishnu to manifest mostly in kali yuga when the mental aspect would degrade the most.

Any thoughts?

 

[renuka]

Shiva and Vishnu are the two major Gods that Hindus worship. Shiva is considered as one who destroys and Vishnu as one who preserves. I would like to add my thoughts to this depiction of Shiva and Vishnu.

The purpose of God is to maintain dharma and destroy adharma when it becomes prevalent. While Shiva plays his part by destroying the physical and not letting it exist forever, Vishnu plays his role by working on the mental to make it fit. In the former the propagation of adharma is stemmed and in the latter case the sustenance of dharma is facilitated.

The above interpretation of Vishnu's role seems logical because if he is the preserver, he safeguards only the mental aspect. If he were to protect the physical aspect then it goes against the role of Shiva. I do not know if in the scriptures, this import to the role of Vishnu is indicated.

Also, though we have Vishnu coming as avatars and destroying people, it is the principle of Shiva that is working in such destruction. It would also seem more logical for the principle of Vishnu to manifest mostly in kali yuga when the mental aspect would degrade the most.

Any thoughts?

Dear Sravna,

I would prefer to view Vishnu,Shiva and Brahma (The Trimurtis) as just different aspects of Brahman.

So for all practical purposes the Trimurtis are Saguna Brahman denoted as GOD.

G..Generation(Brahma)
O..Organization(Vishnu)
D..Dissolution(Shiva)

Going by the meaning of each name Brahma...which means Vast.
Vishnu..from the root word Vis..meaning to enter as in all pervading.
Shiva..meaning Auspiciousness.

Therefore the Trimurti denotes..Auspicious All Pervading Vastness beyond Comprehension.

Now coming to the Shiva aspect..I somehow prefer using the word Dissolution.

Destruction means something that is destroyed for good without any trace.

Dissolution on the other hand means going back to Primal State and it matches with our understanding that nothing is ever destroyed and it only changes form.

I personally feel there is no such thing as Vishnu and Shiva being strictly having their own zones and you don't do my job and I won't do your job syndrome.

That would make Vishnu and Shiva like Raghuvaran and Rajini in Basha that 'you don't enter my area and I won't enter your area"

GOD as in Saguna aspect is a functioning principle which runs the universe.

 

[Raghy]

Shiva and Vishnu are the two major Gods that Hindus worship. Shiva is considered as one who destroys and Vishnu as one who preserves. I would like to add my thoughts to this depiction of Shiva and Vishnu.

The purpose of God is to maintain dharma and destroy adharma when it becomes prevalent. While Shiva plays his part by destroying the physical and not letting it exist forever, Vishnu plays his role by working on the mental to make it fit. In the former the propagation of adharma is stemmed and in the latter case the sustenance of dharma is facilitated.

The above interpretation of Vishnu's role seems logical because if he is the preserver, he safeguards only the mental aspect. If he were to protect the physical aspect then it goes against the role of Shiva. I do not know if in the scriptures, this import to the role of Vishnu is indicated.

Also, though we have Vishnu coming as avatars and destroying people, it is the principle of Shiva that is working in such destruction. It would also seem more logical for the principle of Vishnu to manifest mostly in kali yuga when the mental aspect would degrade the most.

Any thoughts?

Sri. Sravna, Greetings.

Personally I don't condsider Siva and Vishnu as 'Gods'. But that is beside the point.

but in this thread, I am happy to go along since I did consider Siva and Vishnu as gods in the past.

Siva and Vishnu are both performing almost the same task. Siva is the destroyer of 'ego, arrogance and such undersiarable qualities'. Siva is also a protector.

On the other hand, when we have been told all along, Vishnu fights the evil and protects the good. So, he is a protector, but conditions apply!

But in any case, I could not ever think Siva as a destroyer!

I am sure, we will have the opportunity to hear more from other learned members too!

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sravna,

We do not have a complete picture about either Siva or Vishnu, spread over the vast hindu religious scriptures. And so, making such judgmental pronouncements is childish, imho. Just to show our lack of knowledge kindly try to read RV 10-61-6. It states (this just a gist!) that Prajaapati had sexual union with his daughter Ushas and during this act, a bit of Prajaapati's semen fell on a high point in a sacrificial mound. The Raudra Brahman emanated from this (semen). I don't think most people will have heard about this and many similar accounts about Rudra or Vishnu.

My opinion (I don't claim that I am a know-it-all) is that the Rudra of the Rigveda became Siva in a subsequent period; brahma which denoted one of the priests required in a vedic yajna, became the earlier prajaapati or creator god and vishnu whom we see all through the rigveda as a sidekick of Indra, got mixed with the maayOn or maal god from the Dravidian south and became the preserver Vishnu. Brahma for reasons not well-known today became a god who is not worshipped (devoid of followers) and the priestly class invented a suitable story of a curse by some rishi and so on.

All three, Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra, are figments of human imagination; the preservation of this world/universe is not known to us for sure and both may get completely destroyed in the infinite course of time. Destruction or the motto "this too shall pass" is the only definite aspect of everything and hence if believers like you want, Siva is the only definite factor within the triumvirate.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

We do not have a complete picture about either Siva or Vishnu, spread over the vast hindu religious scriptures. And so, making such judgmental pronouncements is childish, imho. Just to show our lack of knowledge kindly try to read RV 10-61-6. It states (this just a gist!) that Prajaapati had sexual union with his daughter Ushas and during this act, a bit of Prajaapati's semen fell on a high point in a sacrificial mound. The Raudra Brahman emanated from this (semen). I don't think most people will have heard about this and many similar accounts about Rudra or Vishnu.

My opinion (I don't claim that I am a know-it-all) is that the Rudra of the Rigveda became Siva in a subsequent period; brahma which denoted one of the priests required in a vedic yajna, became the earlier prajaapati or creator god and vishnu whom we see all through the rigveda as a sidekick of Indra, got mixed with the maayOn or maal god from the Dravidian south and became the preserver Vishnu. Brahma for reasons not well-known today became a god who is not worshipped (devoid of followers) and the priestly class invented a suitable story of a curse by some rishi and so on.

All three, Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra, are figments of human imagination; the preservation of this world/universe is not known to us for sure and both may get completely destroyed in the infinite course of time. Destruction or the motto "this too shall pass" is the only definite aspect of everything and hence if believers like you want, Siva is the only definite factor within the triumvirate.

Dear Shri Sangom,

I think we are at two different ends of the spectrum when it comes to the way we think. What I consider as reality is different from your view of reality. I firmly believe in the existence of spiritual forces from which I believe the physical world ensues. They may not be readily discernible for whatever reasons but their existence is undeniable even if you adhere to logic.

The forms given to such forces and the various facts attributed to them may not seem to be credible when viewed with a mindset of a scientist but I think if we go beyond the superficial analysis and try to arrive at a really logical conclusion , the truth would be evident.

BTW, your knowledge is awesome. I wish I possess such vast knowledge but sometimes I think just like too little knowledge can be a handicap so too is too much knowledge.

 

[Raji Ram]

The fanatics say that only their God is great - either Shiva or VishNu. But there is a popular saying 'Hariyum Sivanum oNNu;

adhai aRiyAthavan vAyilE maNNu'!

The lyrics of some songs in Carnatic music convey that both the Gods are to be worshipped.

There is one Thyagaraja krithi in which the composer says, 'For the Siva mantra – ‘ma’ is the soul; for the Vishnu mantra –

‘rA’ is the soul; I salute these great persons who understand this detail' and asks, 'What did the most eminent people

determine as to who You are? And, how did they worship You?' The krithi is 'evarani nirNayinchirirA' in the rAgam

DEvAmruthavarshani.

In a song composed by Swathi ThirunAL MahArAja, the lyric in the charaNam is:

PadhmanAbha kamalanayana trinayana Shambhu MahEsha

bhaja lE in dhO svaroopa rahiyE avinAshee'.

Here is the beautiful song: vishvEshvara darshana - Sudharagunathan

AnnamAchArya also says, 'Lord Balaji is either Shiva or VishNu; It depends on how we think about the Lord!'

This is the song: Entha Mathramuna

 

[sangom]

The fanatics say that only their God is great - either Shiva or VishNu. But there is a popular saying 'Hariyum Sivanum oNNu;

adhai aRiyAthavan vAyilE maNNu'!

That probably was said by someone who was fully convinced, may be after all his spiritual saadhanas, he / she came to realize that both Siva and Hari were but figments of human imagination and so worshipping one is as good or as ineffective as worshipping the other. That probably is the reason why, except for the puraanic story of ajaamiLa I think we have no accounts of eye-witness accounts of any human being's soul being led onwards to Vaikuntha or Sivaloka by the messengers of Vishnu and Siva respectively.

 

[sravna]

That probably was said by someone who was fully convinced, may be after all his spiritual saadhanas, he / she came to realize that both Siva and Hari were but figments of human imagination and so worshipping one is as good or as ineffective as worshipping the other. That probably is the reason why, except for the puraanic story of ajaamiLa I think we have no accounts of eye-witness accounts of any human being's soul being led onwards to Vaikuntha or Sivaloka by the messengers of Vishnu and Siva respectively.

Dear Shri Sangom,

I will ask you something, you give me a logical answer. Now in Physics we have the concept of forces and energy such as gravitation, electrical etc etc. How do you know that these physical forces exist and give rise to the effects that they are supposed to give? How is it different from me claiming that it is the spiritual force that is responsible for such actions? and that view helps me to reconcile a lot more things and thus gives a whole picture. Why should anyone accept the existence of the physical forces or why should anyone consider the explanations of science valid?

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sangom Sir,

Some people believe in God, either as Hari or Siva. If you don't have belief, it is OK.
But please don't say that worshiping 'Them' is ineffective! Some people like me ray2: !!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I will ask you something, you give me a logical answer. Now in Physics we have the concept of forces and energy such as gravitation, electrical etc etc. How do you know that these physical forces exist and give rise to the effects that they are supposed to give? How is it different from me claiming that it is the spiritual force that is responsible for such actions? and that view helps me to reconcile a lot more things and thus gives a whole picture. Why should anyone accept the existence of the physical forces or why should anyone consider the explanations of science valid?

Dear Shri Sravna,

A good question. The forces/energy such as gravitation, electrical etc., cannot be directly experienced by our body in most cases (except stored electricity, of course) and we rely on their effects only. But these effects are unchanging in the ordinary course and are predictable to mathematical precision. That is why we are able to fly in an aeroplane. But kindly tell me if you can fly a Boeing 737 by merely sitting in the cock-pit and praying to Siva or Vishnu? And, even if you say somebody in some purana did so, can it be repeated by any pilot at any time as definitely as the science?

Again, can we make a lap top function properly with internet connectivity by merely praying to Vishnu or Siva but without a proper battery? And, even if you are probably able to do that (!?) can it be replicated at any time by anyone else?

That is why I say "trust in science, because your own Siva or Vishnu has shown us that science is the correct way (this is to put you in the correct perspective, according to your own belief system, and does not reflect my belief at all) to progress in this world and such science has gone to a people who seem to be moving, by and large, away from religious beliefs. In short "Less of religion and more of a scientific bent of mind will create prosperity for the country".

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

A good question. The forces/energy such as gravitation, electrical etc., cannot be directly experienced by our body in most cases (except stored electricity, of course) and we rely on their effects only. But these effects are unchanging in the ordinary course and are predictable to mathematical precision. That is why we are able to fly in an aeroplane. But kindly tell me if you can fly a Boeing 737 by merely sitting in the cock-pit and praying to Siva or Vishnu? And, even if you say somebody in some purana did so, can it be repeated by any pilot at any time as definitely as the science?

Again, can we make a lap top function properly with internet connectivity by merely praying to Vishnu or Siva but without a proper battery? And, even if you are probably able to do that (!?) can it be replicated at any time by anyone else?

That is why I say "trust in science, because your own Siva or Vishnu has shown us that science is the correct way (this is to put you in the correct perspective, according to your own belief system, and does not reflect my belief at all) to progress in this world and such science has gone to a people who seem to be moving, by and large, away from religious beliefs. In short "Less of religion and more of a scientific bent of mind will create prosperity for the country".

Dear Shri Sangom,

You are missing the point. My point is not about whether it is possible to make a boeing fly or make a laptop work, but how do you know it is the physical forces at work? You might have deciphered just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

You are missing the point. My point is not about whether it is possible to make a boeing fly or make a laptop work, but how do you know it is the physical forces at work? You might have deciphered just the tip of the iceberg.

If one is inclined to think that it is some God or deity which is working as gravity, electricity etc., I have nothing more to say than that we don't know anything more about these gods in order to say who is preserver, who is destroyer, etc.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Sravna,
Do you define Vishnu, Shiva, or any other God as different from Brahman (the ultimate reality)?
In my opinion there is nothing other than Brahman and that alone is God. All deities are its attributes.
Why this distinction between Vishnu or Shiva is important to us.

What about Shakti Bhaktas?
What is the point of driving this wedge issue?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Prasad,

There is no intention to wedge. It is only in the eyes of the beholder.

Of course everything is brahman. But on the other hand we ourselves are part of the physical and mental reality. I think there is nothing wrong in discussing matters that relate to those realities. After all that is our immediate and prevailing reality.

 

[prasad1]

How is the GOLD in gold bangle different than the GOLD in gold bracelet?

If there is no difference between Atma and Paratma, where is the difference between Shiva, Vishnu, allah, or any other names?
Why do we complicate things?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Prasad,

In essence you are right . If you interpret advaita even Shiva and Vishnu are not absolute realities. The point is that just as Prasad and Sravna exist, we have to accept the reality of Shiva and Vishnu as Saguna brahman. Scriptures have spoken about these two Gods. It is not something I am making up.

I am trying to interpret the roles of these two Gods if possible in a way that is meaningful and acceptable to one who has a scientific mindset. I personally believe there is real treasure hidden in the vedic knowledge and I am in my own little way trying to relate it to the scientific understanding. Anything wrong with that?

 

[sravna]

If one is inclined to think that it is some God or deity which is working as gravity, electricity etc., I have nothing more to say than that we don't know anything more about these gods in order to say who is preserver, who is destroyer, etc.

Dear Shri Sangom,

I accept that my knowledge about Shiva and Vishnu is not extensive. But with what little knowledge I have I try to make sense of it because I believe it can make sense to anyone who is not prejudiced. I myself play the role of a critic of the scriptures first before a being follower.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Prasad,

In essence you are right . If you interpret advaita even Shiva and Vishnu are not absolute realities. The point is that just as Prasad and Sravna exist, we have to accept the reality of Shiva and Vishnu as Saguna brahman. Scriptures have spoken about these two Gods. It is not something I am making up.

I am trying to interpret the roles of these two Gods if possible in a way that is meaningful and acceptable to one who has a scientific mindset. I personally believe there is real treasure hidden in the vedic knowledge and I am in my own little way trying to relate it to the scientific understanding. Anything wrong with that?

When my child was very young she believed in tooth fairy (or pretended). But fortunately, she is grown up and knows it is not real.
You as an exponent of Advita Philosophy should be more familier with my position.
So why go after the mirage, when you know the truth?

If you know how a child is born, why would you question about a stork bringing child story?

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

உருவமும், அருவமும்.



எங்கும் நிறைந்த இறைவன் எவனோ அவன்
எந்த உருவமோ அன்றி உடலோ இல்லாதவன்;
எங்கும் நிறைந்த அவனை வெறும் அருவமாக
எண்ணிப் பார்ப்பதும் வெகு கடினமே ஆகும்.

ஐம்பொறிகள் வழியே அனைத்தையும்,
ஐயம் திரிபற அறிந்து கொள்ளும் நாம்,
ஐயம் பொறிகளின் உதவி சற்றும் இன்றி
ஐயனையும் கூட அறிந்துவிட முடியாது.

உருவ வழிபாடு தோன்றியது இந்த
ஒரு காரணத்திற்காகவே அறிவோம்;
அருமை பெருமைகள் அனைத்தையும்
ஒருங்கே பெற்ற ஒரு அழகிய வடிவு!

நினைக்கும்போதே மனம் நிறைந்து
நனைக்கும் கண்ணீர்த் துளிகள் வழிந்து;
இனிக்கும் அந்த உருவத்திடம் மயங்கி
மனத்தை பறி கொடாதார் யாரோ?

உருவ வழிபாட்டை மறுக்கும் மதமும்
உருவங்களின் துணையையே நாடும்;
இறைவனின் தூதனாகவோ, அல்லது
இறைவனின் சிறந்த குழந்தையாகவோ.

வெற்றிடத்தின் மீது மனத்தைப் பதித்து,
வெகு நேரம் தியானம் செய்வது கடினம்;
உள்ளத்தைக் கொள்ளை கொள்ளும் அழகில்
உள்ளத்தைத் தொலைத்துவிடலாம் எளிதாக!

மந்திரம், தந்திரம், யந்திரம் என்கின்ற
மூன்றுமே பலன் அளிக்கும் ஒருபோலவே;
சுந்தர ரூபம் தரும் இன்பத்தை வேறு
எந்த ரூபமுமே தர இயலாது அல்லவா?

வாழ்க வளமுடன்,
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

So why go after the mirage, when you know the truth?

Please read on to know "WHY???"

URUVAM AND ARUVAM.

The God who pervades the universe is in fact formless. But it is difficult for us to imagine anything without a form!

We depend on our five sense organs to gain knowledge about the outside world. Without their help, we can grasp or understand nothing at all!

The worship of God in various forms emerged to make it easy for us to think about and meditate on God!

A form so beautiful, so pleasing and so charming that it gives the onlooker perfect peace of mind. A deep glance at one’s Ishta Deivam is sure to fill any body’s mind with pleasant thoughts which express themselves as tears and roll down the cheeks.

Even the religions which do not attribute any form to God depend on other forms.

They use the forms of the Son of God or the Messenger of God. It is difficult to concentrate or contemplate on emptiness or Soonya. That is why the idol worship is very useful.

Manthram, Thanthram and Yanthram are equally effective but none of them can give the pleasure a lovely form of God can give. The happiness born out of the lovely form of God is matchless!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

A famous teacher /guru wanted to ascertain whether God had a physical form or was without a form.

He swung his his stick across the idol.

It just passed through it as if it were made of air.

He smiled and said to himself, "So God does not have a form!"

He wanted to make sure of his discovery and swung his staff again.

This time it hit the idol hard and made a loud noise.

The guru was duly baffled but I am not

since God appears the way we want to see him!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

“உன் அண்ணன்.”



உருவமும், அருவமும் ஆக விளங்கும்
கருநிறக் கண்ணன், கார்மேக வண்ணன்;
வருவான் அவனை விரும்பி அழைத்தால்,
சிறுவன் ஜடிலனின் கதை இதை உணர்த்துமே!

பண்டைய நாட்களில் பள்ளிகள் குறைவு;
எண்ணிவிடலாம் ஒரு கை விரல்களால்!
படிப்பதென்றால் பல காத தூரம் தனியே
நடந்து சென்றிட வேண்டும் மாணவர்கள்.

காட்டு வழியே தன்னந் தனியே தினம்,
காட்டு விலங்குகளின் பீதியில் செல்லும்,
சிறுவன் ஜடிலன் தன் ஏழைத் தாயிடம்,
மறுகியவாறே ஒருநாள் உரைத்தான்,

“கள்ளிக் காட்டைக் கண்டாலே அச்சம்.
பள்ளி செல்லவோ மிகவும் விருப்பம்.
எனக்குத் துணையாக யார் வருவார்கள்?
எனக்கு ஒரு பதில் கூறுங்கள் அம்மா!”

“கண்ணன் இருக்கும் போது நமக்கு
என்ன பயம் சொல், என் கண்ணே” என்ற
தாயிடம் கேட்டான் “யார் அந்தக் கண்ணன்?”
தாய் சொன்னாள், “அவன் உன் அண்ணன்.”

பாதி வழியில் சிம்ம கர்ச்சனை கேட்டு,
பீதியில் உறைந்த சிறுவன் ஜடிலன்,
“கண்ணா! கண்ணா! உடனே வா! என்
அண்ணா! அண்ணா!” என்று ஓலமிட,

மனத்தை மயக்கும் மோகனச் சிரிப்புடன்,
முன்னே வந்து நின்ற அழகிய சிறுவன்,
“வா தம்பி! நாம் பள்ளிக்கு போவோம்” என
வழி காட்டி நடந்தான் ஜடிலன் முன்னே.

பள்ளியை அடைந்ததும் ஜடிலனிடம்,
“பள்ளி விட்டதும் கூப்பிடு, வருவேன்” எனப்
பகர்ந்து மறைந்தவன் யார் என்பதை அந்தப்
பாலகன் அறியான், நாம் அறிவோமே!

வாழ்க வளமுடன்,
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

"KRISHNA IS YOUR ELDER BROTHER."

Krishna can assume a shape (uruvam) and he can also be without a form (aruvam) as He wishes to do. He will appear in person – if we call out with complete faith and trust.

Jadilan was a young boy who had to go his school through a forest –
since there were very few schools in ancient time. He would get frightened by the various growls and sounds of animals on
his way.

He wanted some one to take him to school safely. His mother told him to call out for Krishna. The boy demanded to know who that Krishna was. The mother said that he is Jadilan’s elder brother.

The next day the boy got frightened by the growl of a lion and called out for Krishna, his elder bother. A beautiful boy with a divine smile appeared before Jadilan and escorted him to the school. He promised to come back in the evening to take Jadilan back home.

Jadilan did not know who the new boy was, but we all know who He was!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Worshiping without FAITH
will not fetch any result.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I accept that my knowledge about Shiva and Vishnu is not extensive. But with what little knowledge I have I try to make sense of it because I believe it can make sense to anyone who is not prejudiced. I myself play the role of a critic of the scriptures first before a being follower.

Dear Shri Sravna,

You say you are trying "to make sense of" the notions of Shiva and Vishnu. You also say that you yourself "play the role of a critic of the scriptures first before a being follower"; hence it may be presumed that you have critically reviewed whatever information/knowledge you have about these two godheads. If so how do you justify the epithets of preserver and destroyer to these two? On what basis has this been done? Has not Vishnu killed enough and more asuras, raakshasas and other perceived enemies of the devas and humans? Has not Shiva appeared (though not as an avataar) in order to help, save etc., raakshasa, humans, etc.?

Whatever your answer to the foregoing questions be, is vishnu really preserving anything in this world/universe? If, as you say in your OP —
"While Shiva plays his part by destroying the physical and not letting it exist forever, Vishnu plays his role by working on the mental to make it fit. In the former the propagation of adharma is stemmed and in the latter case the sustenance of dharma is facilitated."

Now, as you well know, and assuming for arguments' sake (but not agreeing) that your premises are correct, vishnu has been well preserving all religions in this world including those which believe in terrorism to spread its religion; vishnu is also protecting very well the Jews of Israel who just will not allow the Palestinians a peaceful life. What kind of Dharma, then, is preserved or what kind of dharma is being sustained by vishnu?

The only logical outcome which I can visualize out of your effort is the revival of the age-old enmity between vaishnavites and saivites within this forum. This perhaps is what Prasad referred to as "wedge".