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salutations

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Dear drsunadaram,

I am very sorry sir. But this Forum is about being transparent and standing up for what you say in the public.

It seems to me you have made an unsubstantiated allegation about my background and made an equally invalid allegation about my Moderator's role.

Walking away from these remarks just won't do. I do not want to brush off your nasty comments that easily. Throwing some insults on some misinterpreted perceived personal attack and then not standing up to those words based on universal love and brotherhood is not correct.

Please answer my questions or withdraw your remarks publicly after an unconditional apology.

Regards,
KRS

With respects to Sri KRS, I do not want to drag on and keep on substantiating and counter answering these issues and clarifications whatever sought. Implications or whatever are all in our minds and not in our hearts. Let us continue our journey towards working for oneness in Tamilbrahmins.com.This forum is great source of information and panacea of valuable contributions of learned members of tamil brahmin community. I thank every one & God bless us all.
 
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Dear drsunadaram,

I am very sorry sir. But this Forum is about being transparent and standing up for what you say in the public.

It seems to me you have made an unsubstantiated allegation about my background and made an equally invalid allegation about my Moderator's role.

Walking away from these remarks just won't do. I do not want to brush off your nasty comments that easily. Throwing some insults on some misinterpreted perceived personal attack and then not standing up to those words based on universal love and brotherhood is not correct.

Please answer my questions or withdraw your remarks publicly after an unconditional apology.

Regards,
KRS
My Dear SRI KRS,I am surprised at your way of sticking around a point, beating around the bush again and again with particular motto to draw satisfaction to you. Trust me that I have been liking your writings.
What I have requested about Sri and Smt etc in lieu of ...ji still hold good and that was out of my personal taste and that was again a suggestion to all valued members; that is all. It was your goodself who reacted wildly . I expressed my resentment and when I am trying to prevail upon you to settle off, you are raking it again and on top of it forcing me to reply or offer you an unconditional apology. This is too much of you. Is this "wanting to compulsively extract" a role of Moderator?
Please be informed that I will never comply with your force. You and your other collegue moderator/ may as usual in your typical traditional style can say me " you are out".
Thanks and wish you all, all the best.
 
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this is me talking in my moderator role. there is no bolding here, because it is more a urging to two members (krs, drsundaram) to resolve your differences, without walking away from the scene.

it takes a little effort on both sides.

when moderators write in soft black fonts, they do it as members.

a bit tough for us moderators to wear both hats. and equally tough for the public to differentiate between the two.

personally, i think this topic is much ado about nothing.

i agree with drsundaram's initial salvo re 'ji'.

so i do not use it. others do, and they are welcome to it with much gusto. live and let live, i say.

but drs initial note says, Not only it is not correct but also there is distaste as such. Hope valued members will agree to switch to Sri, Chi, Sow, Smt or Avargal, etc etc. I don't know what others feel.

the feeling of 'not correct' and 'distaste' is a personal opinion, and strictly speaking, it does sound, like drs wants everybody to switch to Sri, Chi, Sow, Smt or Avargal,

personally, i would not go that far. i would desist using ji, but not forcing others. i think this is what talibanization meant, when krs used the word.

drs' sounded like he wanted to impose a new rule re salutations here. maybe he did not mean it that way. sometimes, it is difficult to be understood in the same manner as what the written word is meant to be.

unfortunately, drs also made some remarks about ethnicity of moderators (??) and also dragged me into the last note, as arbitrarily throwing people out.

moderators do not throw people out arbitrarily. the last instance, jamadagneya, had several private notes, of a nature, that we do not wish to reveal publicly but are very threatening and offensive.
you would be shocked.

these people, who want to be thrown out, to me, appear to keep on needling the moderators till such action is taken. much of this needling is in private messages. hence public does not have the full story.

back to this thread questioning ethnicity of moderators. i do not see how this becomes an issue.

i think, people should be careful when throwing about words, which can be very wrongly misconstrued.

also, i think we are once again, showing our ego to be supreme. come on people, there are other more serious threads where we all appear to dig deep into disagreement, and take rejections in our stride.

but in this rather inconsequential thread, about how we address each other, we appear to shed blood.

go through the posts one by one, and resolve among yourselves as to how a misunderstanding could have been avoided.

.. and how it ended up getting so hot.

resolve your issues.

i urge both participants, krs and drsundaram, to do the needful corrections in ensuring that relationships are restored to normalcy.

thank you.
 
well said Mr Ponnuppu.In the larger interests of the harmony of Tamil Brahmins Group I wish the matter rests here and we carry on with more important issues.Both the Members concerned are quite senior and am sure will be able to accommodate each other's views and not press beyond.
I joined Tamil Brahmins in September and I find the deliberations are very lively,,useful and carried on in a friendly and open atmosphere.I have brought quite a few of my friends in to this forum and they too are enjoying.I humbly submit my views on this subject.let us continue our good work.Thanks
 
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I think shri drsundaram was trying to hang to tamil roots here... maybe just advocating tamil usage, since we are all tamilians. Maybe, he feels drawn towards it and hence the thread... after all culture is not about choosing things according to whims and fancies...

But terming this as 'taliban' like is exaggarating the issue... taliban represents extremists of a kind who, having a closed mindset, resort to violence and try to impose their views on others... Going by shri drsundaram's posts on the topic and his open views, it could hardly be termed as talibanistic. It is indeed, a strong word to use.

I looked up the sanskrit-english dictionary by V. S. Apte and there is no 'Ji' under the heading. Ji is probably new word formed by the confluence of other languages... It could also be a degenerate of the sanskrit word 'shree'.. mathashree becoming mathaji... just like aham used aaathu(ku) in tamil (nobody says 'naan en ahathirku selgiren'...rather 'naan en aathukku poren') maybe a colloquial usage...

also, i think we are once again, showing our ego to be supreme. come on people, there are other more serious threads where we all appear to dig deep into disagreement, and take rejections in our stride.
Apt words by shri kunjuppu...
 
1. As far as I know, 'ji' is only a suffix and it doesn't find mention in any Sanskrit texts.

2. Since it is mostly used by Hindi speaking population, I understand it is an offshoot
of Persian/Moghul culture.

3. The term 'ethnic identity' is a strong one and I personally think Dr. Sundaram must
have used it, without realising its full import.

4. Calling it 'Taliban like' is even more stronger and harsh and is not justifiable.

5. This kind of personal one to one duel precipitates the matters, until the flashpoint
is reached and some drastic thing happens.

6. All this are not to the liking of people like us. We are not here to witness this kind
of shadow boxing and wrestling.

7. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa says, "Harsh words spoken by one against another
will return to the sender/originator as they are, if the latter does not mind them
and simply ignores them".
 
Dear Dr. Sundaram:
I am writing this as a fellow member. I believe you DO owe an answer to Mr. KRS. You simply cannot write something criticizing the moderators and then not explain what you really meant and brush aside his concerns.
Thank you.

Quoted by Sri KRS:"By the way, what do you mean by "Moderator always think, by virtue of their ethnic identity may be, to sharply comment on any thing which are not going well with theirs" What do you imply by 'ethnic identity'? Are you implying I am not a TB? Are you implying that if I disagree with your views, I can not comment? I would like you to clarify this.
 
We are all quite mature people.After the good efforts of Kunjuppu and others let us close this matter once and for all.Let us not allow our EGOs to dominate us.
 
Dear Sri Silverfox, Sri Kunjuppu,
The very usages that "I owe an answer", "can not walk away" and I should "go ahead to normalize situations" all such words are not amounting to brining in a sense of amity, according to me. Such appeals seem to me to be more one sided and appear pointing a finger at me as if I have commited a grave mistake. I request moderators to be more sensible rather than being more sensitive. After all, to recall, a suggestion was placed by me to the esteemed community that we being tamil brahmins.com why not we use appropriate prefixes like sri , chi etc etc and all knows the rest of developments. Sri KRS should have used simple acceptable expressions of his intent that he is not aggreable to the idea. That was what expected of any body at that stage. Instead he chose certain wordings which did not augur well, in general, as far as I am concerned.
To quote him " In my opinion, this thread's import is cultural and ethnic myopia and "Instead, why are we telling others what term to use and what not to use in any language? We are not Taliban"
What did he refer to by cultural an ethnic myopia? I did not mean, by God's name, any serious aspersions. What he wants to imply by "ethinic" here?. And Mine was a simple suggestion with no big bombastic languages which I don't know nor want to use even of I have to . I was not telling others [ who am I to] to use any term, but merely proposing.. And what is the necessity of his poser "are we talban".?
If he withdraws all the above then I also will which has come consequent of him, respecting Sri Kunjuppu's and other friend's here .
Otherwise I don't want to carry on with this and defray my and other valued member's time. Thanks for the understanding.
 
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Dear Sri drsundaram,

I amply explained what I meant by my words to the response to Sri Sabesan Narayanaswamy:
"Dear Sri Sabesan Narayanaswamy, (I am leaving out the Ji that I usually use as a sign of my respect to others),

The originator's first words were"Ours being tamil brahmins forum why we use ... ji at the end of a member's name? Not only it is not correct but also there is distaste as such.Why is it distasteful and why is it not correct?"

This imports a value judgement on those using it (yes, I am one of them). I don't understand what is so wrong with it - I have lived in the USA for the past 40 years and I address other Indian friends as such.

I see this general trend here about language usage. As I have said, 'Tamil Brahmins' does not mean that everyone who belong to this cultural group should know Tamil/Sanskrit and/or address each other in some specific language. This I think treats a few of our members who are born and raised in the north and who may incline to address others with respect using 'Ji' as not a part of the group.So, I do not see any other import here than to try to impose one's own perceived linguistic heritage on others. With so many issues facing our community, why is this even raised as an issue? These types of proclamations do nothing but to divide ourselves; those who use no 'Ji's and those who use 'Ji's. Is this necessary"

My words are not 'bombastic'. They are direct and counter against your plea. 'Cultural and ethnic myopia' means, a short sightedness based on culture and ethinicity as a TB.

I also said this to you: "'Talibanization' is a very commonly used word today to describe some religious/cultural edict. "We are not Taliban' is not to be in anyways derogatory to you but to comment on your specific sentence "Hope valued members will agree to switch to Sri, Chi, Sow, Smt or Avargal, etc etc.". Sorry Sri drsundaram, your sentence seems to me to be a subtle pressure put on the members to switch. I apologize if my comments hurt you, but believe me, they were not meant to be hurtful.


Again, let me reiterate one point. My comments were not against YOU. They were counter arguments to the ideas you have expressed. May be I was direct in expressing my views as it is the way here in the west.

Behind your 'simple' question, lies the reason for our disunity as TBs and Hindus and Indians. So I expressed my views. What is wrong with it? It seems to me that you want to express any opinion here without being challenged. If you want that, sorry, this is not the right Forum. Have your own blog and post without challenges to your ideas.

But instead of responding to my argument, you chose to attack me personally on MY ETHNIC BACKGROUND and MY MODERATOR'S ROLE. This is the difference.

I have already apologized in my earlier posting if my comment on 'Talibanization' hurt you. But again, I did not say YOU ARE TALIBAN, I said 'WE ARE NOT TALIBAN'. Please try to understand first what I say before going off the cliff.

I do not need your apologies. I am not losing my sleep over, expecting it also. Your conduct here shows only a person who is so thin skinned that he will think that any criticism of his idea is a personal attack.

Thank you.

Regards,
KRS

I will let others decide on your conduct.
 
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What happened to the posts, one by Kunjuppu and the other from me that followed his, this morning?

Were they deliberately removed?
 
Dear Dr. Sundaram:
Please .... if you go back and re-read my posting, I was only suggesting that you respond (or clarify) what you meant in terms of what you said about moderators. I didn't say anything about using what kind of honorifics when addressing members; I didn't even come near that.
Many members also thought that you wording was somewhat harsh and critical about what you mentioned about the moderators. I was only asking you to perhaps to elaborate on that. Maybe you didn't mean anything by what you said; however, we all have our own styles of written communication and what you think is right may be construed by some other person as wrong.
In any case, maybe let us put this all behind us and work towards the betterment of our community, which is the REAL purpose of this forum.
Thanks!
 
I am sure many elder members of this forum remember that some years ago whenever postal address is written,especially to the elderly persons,people used to write Esq.after the addressee's name.I too have written the same thing without knowing what does that Esq. stand for.(Nor do I know even now).If some one knows about that,he may pl.clarify for general information.
S.Sridharan
 
Sri Sadasivam.Srinivasan,

Esquire (abbreviated Esq.) is a term of British origin (from French "écuyer", squire), originally used to denote social status. Ultimately deriving from the medieval squires who assisted knights, the term came to be used automatically by men of gentle birth. The social rank of Esquire is that above gentleman. More specifically, though, a distinction was made between men of the upper and lower gentry, who were "esquires" and "gentlemen" respectively (between, for example, "Thomas Smith, Esq." and "William Jones, Gent."). A late example of this distinction is in the list of subscribers to The History of Elton, by the Rev. Rose Fuller Whistler, published in 1882, which clearly distinguishes between subscribers designated Mr (another way of indicating gentlemen) and those allowed Esquire.
Today, however, the term may be appended to the name of any man not possessing a higher title (such as that of knighthood or peerage) or a clerical one. In the United States, however, esquire is most commonly assumed by lawyers in a professional capacity and has come to be associated by many Americans solely with the legal profession.

(copy pasted from wikipidea)
 
Dear Mr.Raghy,
Thanks for the explanation.By the way, I am Sadasivam.Sridharan not Sadasivam.Srinivasan as has been addressed.
Regards
S.Sridharan

Sri Sadasivam.Sridharan,

I am sorry about the mistake. Kindly bear with me, please. (It is purely my fault. I was not concentrating).

Regards,

Raghy.
 
Dear Dr. Sundaram:
Please .... if you go back and re-read my posting, I was only suggesting that you respond (or clarify) what you meant in terms of what you said about moderators. I didn't say anything about using what kind of honorifics when addressing members; I didn't even come near that.
Many members also thought that you wording was somewhat harsh and critical about what you mentioned about the moderators. I was only asking you to perhaps to elaborate on that. Maybe you didn't mean anything by what you said; however, we all have our own styles of written communication and what you think is right may be construed by some other person as wrong.
In any case, maybe let us put this all behind us and work towards the betterment of our community, which is the REAL purpose of this forum.
Thanks!
My earnest appeal to all:
Enough...No Post mortem Please,..let us close this topic..So much heated arguments and counter argument are totally unnecessary...let us carry on..
 
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There are many methods to stay happy. The idea of joining a forum should be to share happiness. That is my motto.

" iniya ulavagaa innadhu kooral kani iruppa
kai kavarnthatru." Thirukkural by Thiru Valluvar.
(When there are many word available that are nice, cheerful and chrming, choosing harsh words is equal to choosing a fruit not ripe enough over ripe and matured fruits).

I complete my last message in this thread with a show of happiness...

YouTube - Sound of Music | Central Station Antwerp (Belgium)
 
raghy,

that was a nice cut from the youtube. we too have a history of folk singing and dancing.

if we were to chose an equivalent song and dance together in chennai central, what would be a nice song? with a zing?

my choice, of the moment would be எங்கள் கல்யாணம் கலாட்டா கல்யாணம் .. but i am quite sure, there are better others than this. :)

a more apt song for this thread is this old elton john song

YouTube - Elton John - Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word - 1976

when you go through the thread, the one thing that strikes out to me is that sorry seems to be the hardest word to say.

i am not pointing fingers at either krs and drs, as they are both valuable members here and their contribution makes this an added rich forum.

i can only speak for myself and my experience.

years ago, in another forum, inadvertently i got into a nasty nasty fight. even as i was getting into it, i felt like being sucked out of oxygen and sucked into a quicksand.

it is just that once the events started playing, scene after scene, answers coming like blows in an mgr movie, there was no going back.

at the end of it all, in a similar position like here, more at the urging of the other members, much like here, i stopped long enough to lick my wounds.

most of them, i found were self inflicted. i was also unhappy as a result of this quarrel, which appeared in perspective, wantonly silly.

it took a little bit of courage, a lot of hesitation, a few drinks to get me to apologize first.

even then, i think, the sting of the wounds remained in my erstwhile opponent for a long time.

the public, then, like now, do not really know, how to patch up things between two quarrelling members.

the fact that one here is a moderator, and other here is an ordinary member, should make no difference. we, as public, need some different tactics and skillsets.

many a times in this fight, even though i was a moderator, i wanted to take on the public role and mediate. mediation is good, i think.

even my one note here as moderator, was more in the spirit of mediation. that is how i am.

as my dad used to say, சமாதானம் any day is better than சண்டை.

one thing for sure. quarrels keep happening between members, more often than we change underwear. so might as well get used to it.

i think, one basic rule, that we can all follow, is that no matter what, we will not quit the forum, but will stay, to be heard another day.

also, let us quarrel within bounds. at the end of the quarrel, we wish we had not said certain things. let us have the presence of mind not to say it at all.

considering the harshness factor, 0 - 10, with zero being least, this quarrel is only a 1 or 2. no பச்சை பச்சையான தமிழ் வார்த்தைஸ் were used. there were no texts censored, i think.

this one is all about semantics. what does the usage of a word imply. does it differ in meaning, in different parts of the world.

i think yes.

in such cases, it does not make a difference, as to who apologizes first.

in my opinion, the first one to say sorry is a winner. not to say that the second one to follow is not a winner. he wins too, but only as a runner up.

way back, in another thread, nara said that it is not good to sweep the dirt under the carpet. i agree. but i also desire not to do the அரச்ச மாவ் exercise.

i think folks like pannvalan, swaminatha sharma, nrsundaram, raghy, CRAVI, vikrama, sabesan, happy, hari1972, and many many more, ... just to mention a few at the top of my head, are members in good standing to chide one another without getting all huffy and puffy.

so i request the public to go back and hear the elton john song once again and come out here and share your thoughts.

also, the public can come up with proactive suggestions, to prevent quarrels getting to so high a pitch than members' dislike factor runs high enough to desists any peace keeping efforts

thank you.
 
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Sri Kunjuppu deserves a reply. Although I said I posted my last message in this thread, replying Sri. Kunjuppu takes more importance than my resolve.

Sri. Kunjuppu,

(Thanks for mentioning my name in commendation. I have not been here long enough. But I am sure you have many many more members in your mind, but did not bring out all the names you actually wanted to mention).
I thought about a Tamizh song that can really get Chennai central station alive. In a different forum hosting majority Ex-Muslims, Muslims and Christians, a few times I got into arguments with members while defending India and some characterises of Hinduism. I posted this Tamizh song to ease the tension during one such argument. Although they did not understand the meaning, all of them collectively agreed that the song simply promoted happiness, since everyone in that song was happy. Mind you, they all understand happiness has nothing to do with being rich or poor. I will post the link at the end of the message.

I left India 20 years back. In my observations, I found Indians find it very hard to apologise. I was not like that. Even now, if I get annoyed or angry with my children, (I am partly deaf. So, it is very easy for me to miss part of a conversation and get annoyed due to that) I don’t hesitate to apologise to them.

I like to make a suggestion to all the members who find it hard to apologise- Kindly try to apologise, if you are at fault or you need not be at fault at all but the other party is not at fault, starting with your family members, please. When you are prepared to make amends by making an apology, your value actually goes up. In the western world, the person who is prepared to humble and make an apology always wins. By conceding the situation and by making an apology, a person may seem to have lost that particular situation, but as I observed, that person’s social standing goes up.

In my opinion, this forum presents a serious atmosphere. We may be discussing heavy topic. But, that need not make the forum humour-less. After all, we are not even meeting each other in person; why not open the light side of ours and have few laughs? There are few surgeons I muck around with in the operation theatre when they are conducting surgeries. One of them is the head of the surgical department, an Indian tamil from Kumbakonam. (I am a nurse student about to complete my course. I applied for a position in that theatre- I got the surgeons reference because they think that I can lighten the situation even during a complicated surgery). Please add some humour. Most times I try to make light of any heavy situations. I am a simple minded person. “Simple things are often the best in life”.

Sri Kunjuppu, That Elton John’s song was very good. But it was bit too heavy for my taste. Although it suits the situation, I would not have chosen that. (I would not know such heavy songs in the first place).

Please imagine this song playing at Chennai Central station- at a time when a lot of youngsters and persons young at heart are present….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iTs70ds3RA
This was always a mood elevating & motivating song for me.

Regards,
Raghy.
 
raghy,

i like your attitude re resolutions. resolutions are meant to be broken, i always say :)

just finished enjoying the youtube clip from nayagan. i was trying to look for you. in minute 3.59, there is this lady throwing pink powder. is that you?

:)

just kidding mon!!

re humour at workplace, my wife is like that. just upbeat all along. we all have sorrows, but no point bringing it to work. very good attitude.

re saying sorry, i think it is a cultural thing among TBs though i can only speak from my own family experience.

as long as i was growing up, 'say sorry', was forced out of me, under threat of bamboo stick. so to me, it was a tool of rebellion or loss of face, i guess.

sadly, i took this attitude towards my folks, well into middle age, with much regrets now.

things were better with my younger sibling.. parents & sibling learnt the value of saying sorry much earlier.

things are very good re my own children re apologizing. but can be sticky with my wife, because she comes from a same family atmosphere as me.

surprisingly, indians have no problems apologizing to other nationalities, as i have found.

whatever it may be, i think life is too short. when we are having a good time, let us try to prolong it and watch out for pitfalls that put a damper.

i agree, my elton john choice was pretty heavy and we need lighter tones to get us out of morose moods.
 
Panvalan:-(qoute)I think 'ji' has something to do with Persian or it is the practice followed by Hindi-speaking people alone"(en-quoquote)

"Ji" is a Sanskrit Dhatup(Root word) meaning conquer/achieve--Jitha is derived from 'Ji"--means victorious--Jitha+Indriya=Jithenthriya=victorious over cognitive senses.If a person achieves something ,he/she is confered the title "Jinn"--if a person who successfully performs and completes it ,he is called"Yaajinn"
 
Panvalan:-(qoute)I think 'ji' has something to do with Persian or it is the practice followed by Hindi-speaking people alone"(en-quoquote)

"Ji" is a Sanskrit Dhatup(Root word) meaning conquer/achieve--Jitha is derived from 'Ji"--means victorious--Jitha+Indriya=Jithenthriya=victorious over cognitive senses.If a person achieves something ,he/she is confered the title "Jinn"--if a person who successfully performs and completes it ,he is called"Yaajinn"

Dear Somayaji ji
Very informative post!!
S.Sridharan
 
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Going by all discussions I request that we can end this episode.I don't know whether the thread has served any constructive purpose but yielded more of controversery especially between me and Sri KRS. It was a simple idea of mine, I sincerly thought of giving coolness not heat. To Sri KRS and to others if any,if I have offended members or moderators I seek your forgivings. I don't want to be a party for resentment but that of ensuring smooth relationship and understanding.
Kind regards
 
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