Ritual - is it a science or superstition

[DURGADASAN]

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Is it fair sir??? If we stop doing rituals, everything will change consequently. The things which are providing in the agni is the food of devas. They instead provide rain for us. Since, this is kaliyuga people are started asking like this. And even devas, like us, started acting like misers. You may ask, whether the food that we spoil (money wastage) will reach devas?? If your son send some dollars from US, is that same dollars you are receiving here???... Am damn sure on one thing. Our ancestors are not mad fellows. They have 6 types of vimanas. Have television, scanner everything by that day itself. But, Alas, we in the mindset of westernization degrades ourselves, our culture, and our people. Whatever the western people did we accept. Performing rituals are our rites. The person who is irresponsible will wander away from this. Am sorry to say like this sir. Noway Iam intentional to fight with you. But dont think even like that. Spending your hardearned money to pubs, cinemas, parties, feasts, holiday tours---are they not wasting your time, money and energy??? You may now defend that they are giving you pleasure. Can you show me the pleasure?? Because, it has to be feel. Likewise do the rituals, you will get immense pleasure (a fixed permanent pleasure) which you will feel. Nothing to explain. A simple recital of sloka how much keeps our concentration into a focussed one. Rituals are like that only. They sharpen our views, make our minds broad.

 

[RVR]

The purpose of starting this thread is not to condemn or give up rituals. Let them go on as usual.

If we can find scientific support for some of the rituals, why not do it?

Science has its own limitations. If all the inventions takes place today, there is no requirement for further research. So let science continue its research path.

All the best

 

[[email protected]]

To: Sri Durga Dasan, rituals came only in Kaliyuga because the life span is too short,but rituals is not the remady for day to day life, scientificly not possible to prove the significance, like a Doctor performing operation in the heart and asked him you have seen Athma or Prannan inside there is no answer from him like that rituals also , s.r.k.

 

[Eastern Mind]

I will put it this way. Without faith, in some form or the other, a human being cannot survive. For example, when I drive a proven scientific invention like a car, I have this implicit faith that all its parts are working well and I will not meet with an accident though I may not know at all how these parts work with each other. Here we have put our faith on the person who has invented the car and the company who has manufactured it. This in spite of reports of numerous defects found subsequently resulting in major recall of the specific product. This goes for numerous other scientific inventions where the common man has put faith because it is tested and certified for use.

My question is simple. If I do practice a ritual which does not cause any harm to me as an individual or to the society and which actually gives me a benefit (the benefit does not also cause harm to me or society) which I am able to realize gradually by performing the ritual, why do I need scientific proof for that? For example, a ritual like the Sandhyavandana supposedly gives benefits to its performers who realize them in a subtle way then why do these people need any kind of scientific proof for that?

There are 2 things involved here.
1. If I am forcing someone to perform the Sandhya then I need to give scientific proof for that. I have no disputes on that.
2. If I am not forcing someone but someone is demanding proof then it is up to that someone to prove that performing the Sandhya does not give any benefits. Here I will put the onus on the one demanding proof.

Of course it is natural for the person performing a ritual to say that it leads to certain benefits. Partly it is based on what the scriptures say but also partly based on personal experience. The part that is based on experience is difficult to prove by the person experiencing it. How do you prove the subtle changes that is taking place in your mind, in the nadis? The scientific mind may say that these changes are happening not because of the ritual but due to other factors. Here again the onus is on that person to prove it.
For the person performing the ritual cares less. He has put his mind and faith on the ritual which is yielding him benefits. That is enough for him.

Same goes for homam. A homa performed with total shraddha for a couple of hours to the constant chanting of vedic mantras creates terrific vibrations in that place which is experienced by all. All participants vouch to this fact. Now we cannot say that all of them are hallucinating.

So my take on this is the human mind is still young and evolving. There are still many things beyond the realm of our understanding. In stead of just debunking them as irrational, perhaps the scientists can start proving or disproving them. If they prove the rituals as irrational, they would have saved the society from darkness. If they cannot it is probably good to accept them as new knowledge and move on.

Absolutely! Best post on this topic yet. I will be using the car analogy in future.

Aum Namasivaya

 

[anandb]

Thanks Eastern. I was just thinking about this further. I think we can stretch this phobia to ask for proof for anything to any extent. Just a few examples,
1. I eat a packet of wholegrain Nestle cereals in the morning. What is the guarantee that it is "wholegrain" and worse still it is not genetically modified?
2. I catch a fever and the doc. puts me on antibiotics. I take the ab and at the same time do visualization techniques of my fever going away. So do I put the reason to antibiotics or to my visualization?
3. Manufacturers of mobile phones say talking long hours on phones does not cause headache or any adverse effects in the long term. Who has certified it? Is the certifying agency reputable? What is the guarantee that the certifying agency was not bought over by the manufacturer?
4. While driving on the road, I get a flat tyre and get a new tyre fixed by a roadside mechanic. Here I have put my trust on a mechanic whom I don't know.
5. I travel by plane and have this implicit trust and faith on the pilot, whom I don't know, that he will drive safely and in the aircraft manufactured by a great brand.


a. Just to show that we still operate our daily lives on trust and faith based on people whom we don't know, brands which are supposedly great, certification which we have not seen done by agencies which we may not have heard of and possibly bought over and so on.

b. On the other hand, we also perform certain rituals which have been passed from time, ordained by the scriptures, done by our ancestors and possibly by my dad who swears to its positive effects and whom I know better than the roadside mechanic. These rituals, perhaps superstition to others, but not to me and they don't cause mental or physical harm to me or others and I believe in them.

To me, there is no difference between a. and b. Both operates on a matter of faith. The scientist may say that a. are all scientifically tested and proved but as a common man not accessible to the data and even if accessible cannot understand the mumbo jumbo, I care less. I use the invention for what it has been designed for with the faith that it will not harm my life. Simply, I apply the same faith for a ritual.

Thanks

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Anand:

Greetings!

I want to further discuss couple of points you have raised.

[1] In the case of automobiles, the faith that it will run safely and as intended is not just claimed by the scientists, designers, and manufacturers. These are checked and verified and the results of such tests are published for everyone to evaluate. There is enough procedural mechanisms to ensure authentic information is provided. Just because 100% certainty is not achieved is not a valid argument to demand acceptance of scientific respectability for Vedic rituals without any verification at all.

[2] When a claim is made, the onus of proof is on the one who makes the claim. In other words, those who claim scientific authenticity for Vedic rituals must provide the necessary proof. They cannot just make any claim they want and ask those who are reluctant to accept such claims to disprove it. It is irrational to demand that a negative be proved.

As far as I am concerned, individual faith is their own matter, you want to believe sun is a planet or in the order of heavenly bodies moon is farther away from earth compared to the sun, or the food items you deposit in a ritual fire gets transported to heavenly beings who in turn provide rain, then it is your right to do so. But, when one provides some mathematical equation, or asserts the ability of agnihothra smoke to purify the air or save lives from deadly poisonous gas, then provide the proof is all I wish to ask.

Cheers!

 

[vijisesh]

Clearing my view point

Hi ! Pann ,

As explained in my previous mail , i don't intend to and don't find the NECESSITY to question a few things that i follow with my heart - Not because I am afraid that " Someday someone may prove that it was ineffective " but just that I do not want to do away with some of the things which are dearer to me and which I am confident of and has fetched me results . May be there would be worthwhile things to do , like giving milk to a cat rather than dispute on these things !

Appreciate Shri Anand in providing simple and patient analogies for any layman to follow ! Good work !

My view point is clear and again peripheral or core central issues , it all depends on circumstances and situations and more often , the complicated problems can have the easiest of solutions and may have gone un-noticed by us.

Although shri RV ji keeps repeating " What he expects from the posters from this thread , may be the topic is kind of misleading in my opinion ! "

Vijisesh,

Again you are touching only the peripheral issues. Please answer this direct question from me. Why a ritual (as described earlier) should be performed at all? (What is its chief objective?).

What is the scientific principle behind each of the rituals and whether they can be performed in a controlled atmosphere? Whether their inputs and output can be measured with precision and accuracy? Whether the rituals can be suitably modified to obtain the expected results, that too to the required level, each time?

Most importantly, are they conducted in a totally transparent manner for everyone to see without any restraint or restriction and are the methodology and the results verifiable by the professionals/external agencies from the pure sciences field?

Kunjuppu,

As a person, I don't believe in omens (sagunams). So, the cat example cited by you hasn't impressed me. Moreover, I think it is not relevant to the topic, I feel.

See you again.

 

[Nara]

.....To me, there is no difference between a. and b. Both operates on a matter of faith. The scientist may say that a. are all scientifically tested and proved but as a common man not accessible to the data and even if accessible cannot understand the mumbo jumbo, I care less. I use the invention for what it has been designed for with the faith that it will not harm my life. Simply, I apply the same faith for a ritual.

Even after testing and verifying, common man still has no firm understanding and therefore faith is involved when it comes to general public using the benefits of science -- this is the core of the argument I suppose. There are two problems with this.

[1] Apply the same standard as science to rituals
When it comes to science it is at least verified by other scientists who are by nature skeptical and has to be won over by evidence and not by personal affidavit. The devices having side effects do not diminish the science behind the technology. Saying that these devices may have some side effects that are not clearly understood by science is enough reason to accept the scientific authenticity for the main effect of rituals is not reasonable. Those who believe in ritualists, like the scientists, must provide the same level of verifiable evidence to claim status of science, no more no less.

[2] Benefit to common man is tangible, not mere faith
The common man at least gets to experience the benefit science promises. When Alexander Graham Bell claimed you can talk over the wires, he demonstrated it. He did not say just talk into this mouth piece and just trust me, the other person will hear it. People were able to call and carry on conversations. Science does not yet understand a phenomenon 100% cannot be offered as justification for scientific acceptance of a completely different phenomenon with no evidence whatsoever. I am not talking about personal beliefs here.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

If anything has to be accepted as Science, it has to under go repeatability under testing parameters.

If our rituals doesn't pass, let us not bother. It is just matter of faith.

However if some body makes a claim that it is a science, then it should be subject to verification.

All the best

 

[anandb]

Dear Shri Nara,

I just cannot argue in circles. I think I have made my views absolutely clear in my first mail. If I am claiming scientific benefits from rituals no doubt I need to give proof. If I am operating from faith there is no need. I think we both agree on that. My comparisons with science is there is still an element of faith involved when it comes to harmful side effects from these inventions. No one is arguing about its use. Even a dumbo can say that when you talk on the telephone the other person will hear it. I am not talking about the obvious here.

There is another point I want to make. It is not that there is a huge lobby shouting over the roof top that rituals are scientific. In fact it is just the opposite these days where rituals are condemned. It is quite common that after the performance of a homam or yagnam the participants do experience lot of serenity and peace. This is something internal. May be it can be measured by scientific instruments. And that is what I said before. If I say that I undergo a particular experience after a ritual but I am not a scientist nor I have the scientific apparatus to prove it, it is up to the scientists to prove or disprove it. And that is what, I guess, science does and should do. It gives an opportunity for science to prove a myth or otherwise. I don't think a good scientist will just debunk anything the way you term rituals as voodoo.

I don't know if you read the entire piece I had sent earlier on Agnihotra and Combustion. Please read again. It is very clear in what the author wants to say. And this is the kind of analysis required from the scientific community. Can't expect the poor prohithar to conduct scientific experiments to back up his claim. Of course, the prohitar should not be making the claims in the first place. But we Indians tend to shoot from our mouth.

 

[vijisesh]

Ok then I think , if there's proof enough for the vedic rituals to be scientific , let it be laid down and discussed .

 

[Nara]

I think I have made my views absolutely clear in my first mail. If I am claiming scientific benefits from rituals no doubt I need to give proof. If I am operating from faith there is no need. I think we both agree on that.

Thank you, yes, we have agreement.

There is another point I want to make.

[....]

If I say that I undergo a particular experience after a ritual but I am not a scientist nor I have the scientific apparatus to prove it, it is up to the scientists to prove or disprove it.

I hope if I address this "another point" I won't be going in circles .

No sir, not so, it is not up to somebody else to prove the validity, or lack thereof, of your personal experience. Scientists follow their own personal interests. If you are interested in Vedic rituals, then it is up to you to pursue it and publish your findings.

I don't know if you read the entire piece I had sent earlier on Agnihotra and Combustion.

It is the process of science that is important, not a single scientist. When a finding is put through the ringers of this scientific process what comes out deserves our acceptance. Internet is full of fantastic claims. If this Agnihotra claim gets published in a respectable scientific journal then I will give it my time. Until then I shall pass on the opportunity, I have lots of other much more interesting things to read.

On Voodoo
In as much as you have agreed that the effects people feel out of Vedic rituals is personal and not scientific, I am a little puzzled why the Voodoo reference bothers you. As a Brahmin it may be disconcerting to see Vedic rituals likened to Voodoo ceremonies as they may include animal sacrifices and are performed by people who seem uncivil or uncouth. But Vedic rituals also included animal sacrifices and even human sacrifices at one timel, and the ones who perform Vedic ritual to this day seem uncivil and uncouth to lots of people who do not follow Brahminsim.

Voodoo is also a religion that is handed down through generations that millions follow and swear by the positive personal experiences after participating in their ceremonies. Thus, in its essence I see lots of similarities between Vedic rituals and Voodoo. They belong to the same catagory, namely, religious rituals.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

I request honourable members to write to both Sringeri and Kanchi mutts to undertake research involving Music and its effect on Plants, Animals and Human beings.

Mr Pannvalan has already pointed out that Annamalai University way back in the seventies conducted research involving music on plants and published it. Why don't we take it forward.

I have heard, late Nadaswara Vidwan Rajarathinam Pillai has attracted Cobras when he was performing Magudi.

I think we should persuade the universities controlled by Kanchi and Sringeri mutts to do some research on Music first.

The purpose of this thread is to add scientific support to some of the incidents already happened.

Let us follow our faith and at the same time add further scientific proof wherever possible.

All the best

 

[pbkhema]

Many botanists say that music has certain effect on plants and it has been recordef.
But my own views mantras have the power to alter the surronding wave and create an atmosphere.All rituals have some basis.But not all are scientific