Ritual - is it a science or superstition

[Eastern Mind]

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Vanakkam: What does it matter if it can be scientifically proved or not? If a herbal medicine (one that hasn't been tested for 10 years by teams of scientists with crores of government money) works, then use it.

Here are some examples of stories I have heard.

1) An unemployed devotee goes to Palani for child's tonsuring, but prays for job as a secondary thought. Within 10 minutes of bus back to Madurai, gets 3 job offers via cellphone.
2) Thousands witness Ganesha murthis drinking milk. Phenomena stops as quickly as it starts.
3) In a big windstorm, a tree falls against the wind, just to avoid a small shrine.
4) Murthis in colder climates feel warm to the touch of a priest.
5) Murthis wink at devotees.
6) Things fall from shrines or murthis at the same time as devotee has a certain thought, or prayer.
7) Bells ring on their own accord, without any wind, or person around.

I could go on and on about such phenomena. Who needs science when the Guru of Experience already lets us know?

Aum namasivaya

 

[pannvalan]

Most of these are humbugs and stage-managed. Very few are accidental co-incidence.

Miracles do happen but they do not come with a prior notice. In fact, many of the (real) miracles appear like a normal event or occurrence and their full import can be realised only much later.

Miracles are not possible for everyone and they do not happen in everyone's life.

 

[RVR]

Once faith is put first, no questions will be asked.

But when some claims are made, definitely it has to be verified.

There are news items appearing that certain raagas cure certain deceases. Why don't we put it for a scientific verification.

During Bhopal gas leak tragedy, two families within one KM radius where not affected due to performance of agnihotram. Why not we repeat the test in simulated condition.

Harvard university has done some research on Prayers.

Harvard Gazette: Prayers don't help heart surgery patients

Why not we put atleast the claims already made to similar test.

Nothing wrong in being objective. Our faith will not go down even if we get a negative result. But if we get a positive result, it will create lot of new opportunities.

Why not the universities controlled by Kanchi and Sringeri mutts do this research.

My interest is only finding truth of the claims already made. If there is no claim, let us leave it as it is.

All the best

 

[KRS]

I think we need to keep things that belong to spirituality/religion seperate from scientific inquiry. I agree with Sri Nara's import on what criteria define what something belong in the realm of Science.

I do not think that Modern Science, as developed as it is has the tools to properly eveluate these faith based observations. The danger is that we may not know what a 'controlled environment' is to conduct proper studies and as a result, pooh-pooh the phenomenon. This has happened in the realm of the validy of Jyotishm, which is off hand dismissed by Science even though there are milions and millions of instances of empirical data available. This then, added with some charlatans posing as Jyotishs, has made this discipline as a nether science, fit for ridicule.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

... it is just pure faith , Faith in the modern day scientists , faith in the doctors and similarly ....
Why don't I have a little faith on what has been passed on from generations to me ??

Hi,

Good question. Here is my answer.

There are no infallible Acharyas in science, not even Newton or Darwin or Einstein. Ideas that are proved wrong are jettisoned without any hesitation. When something is inexplicable scientists admit it openly. For these reasons they deserve and have earned our faith. Until this is done -- the onus of proof is on those who wish to claim scientific respectability – vedic rituals do not have a better claim for scientific authenticity than, say, Voodoo, which also has lots of faithful followers swearing by its effects and a long tradition passed down through generations.

I am not arguing about faith, everyone has a right to their own delusions. I am only concerned about the claims to science. Put up your scientific evidence or shut up about claims to science.

Cheers!

BTW, in an another thread somebody pointed to something that is yet to be clearly understood by science and claimed that because of that Vedas are eternally true.

 

[vijisesh]

Hi! to you too !
My response in blue !

Hi,

Good question. Here is my answer.

There are no infallible Acharyas in science, not even Newton or Darwin or Einstein.

You don't have a requirement of an Acharya , here as there is logic and maths behind each and every thing and an earnest quest with resource support could be sufficient to make one understand the functioning of a discovery or an invention .

As the case for a vedic pursuit , one needs to follow a definite pathway , with an unperturbed dedicated faith and streamlined efforts , as the fruits of his efforts are going to be eternal ( Faith says so !)

Ideas that are proved wrong are jettisoned without any hesitation.
When something is inexplicable scientists admit it openly.

It doesn't happen always , a person in the related field will know the weight of the hazards brought to him by the contemporary gadgets , medicines , atomic power plants , ozone layer depletion ...

For these reasons they deserve and have earned our faith.
,Whether they have earned our faith or not is another question altogether , it is sad that in today's world we have no choice but to use them unconditionally !

Until this is done -- the onus of proof is on those who wish to claim scientific respectability – vedic rituals do not have a better claim for scientific authenticity than, say, Voodoo, which also has lots of faithful followers swearing by its effects and a long tradition passed down through generations.

I am not arguing about faith, everyone has a right to their own delusions. I am only concerned about the claims to science. Put up your scientific evidence or shut up about claims to science.

i don;t think anyone is interested to confuse issues of faith to science . But i know for sure that some of the religions ( primitive as you may call ) have clearly explained some of the things long long ago that scientists have taken a while to discover! Pl go through you tube - with key words ' vedas and science ' or ' islam and science '
to know more about these !
I suppose by adding a few letters behind our names , signifying our graduate/ post graduate accomplishments ( man-made academic / literary ) , we do not attain the competence level to declare the teachings of our great books as trivial or to even raise doubts against them ! Our arrogance shall be tested at the right time when one would resort to FAITH of the SUPREME for sure !

Katrathu Kadugalavu ..Kallathathu Ulagalavu !

 

[KRS]

'Delusions'!

Vow! Such a certainty of knowledge!

Now we will be told that we all need to throw away our faiths, as we are all delusional! First step is to renounce our born identity! I thought we are discussing the difference between Science and Faith. I don't understand this attack on Faith!

If only the humans 'learn' to think and act 'logically' - what a wonderful world it will be?

 

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam all:

Just another point to consider.

There is a huge difference between these two statements.

It has not been scientifically proven.
It has not been scientifically proven ... yet.

Our rational knowledge continues to grow. An example of the subtle is fermones. 20 years ago nobody knew why young men 'hover' around women. Now we know. I think God enshrined in temples has simialar subtleties. Shall we term them Godmones?

Aum Namasivaya

 

[Nara]

Don't fall for hoaxters

SWIFT March 14, 2008

 

[pannvalan]

Nara,

Please do not mix simple rituals with occult sciences. All the Hindu rituals are performed for the welfare of an individual, his family, for the nation and the entire mankind.

Rituals have been under constant attack for the following reasons.

1. Brahmins monopolised the rights to conduct these rituals, thereby evoking
involuntary hatred and scepticism from others. Another reason could be all the mantras/
instructions are only in Sanskrit which is not fully understood by all.

2. Even learned scholars do not explain properly the purpose, methodology,
anticipated outcome and its scale, cost involved etc. beforehand and even if they
tell, they are less convincing.

3. Especially the cost factor. The costs estimated are never kept up and the final
costs are always more. This raises a question about the honesty of the vedic
scholars/sastris themselves and many of us are tempted to believe these people
are all money-minded and there is no real yoga kshemam in any of these rituals.
But, is that the fault of the rituals themselves?

4. All the rituals may not produce the intended results, that too the degree projected.
Many petty rituals are either outdated or meaningless or designed to produce awe and
wonder in the minds of the 'Kartha' and others around.

As I had already written, these rituals even if not performed will not create any harm
to anybody. If there is faith in the person/s concerned, they may bring good to them.
Hinduism does not compel anybody to perform any ritual against one's wish. Even
by not performing any ritual mandated for an occasion, one can continue to be a Hindu.
What's more, people with disbelief can criticise and attack these rituals and their propagators/ promoters, without the fear of any reprimand or punishment of getting
banished from the community.

That's the greatness of Hinduism!

 

[RVR]

Vanakkam all:

Just another point to consider.

There is a huge difference between these two statements.

It has not been scientifically proven.
It has not been scientifically proven ... yet.

Our rational knowledge continues to grow. An example of the subtle is fermones. 20 years ago nobody knew why young men 'hover' around women. Now we know. I think God enshrined in temples has simialar subtleties. Shall we term them Godmones?

Aum Namasivaya

You are correct. Simply because science could not explain certain things, let us not reject anything. But at the same time, certain claims made by some pseudo spiritualists have to be countered so that innocent public are not cheated.

My point is if there is no claim, let us leave it as such.

But if a claim is made, it has to be verified.

All the best

 

[Eastern Mind]

You are correct. Simply because science could not explain certain things, let us not reject anything. But at the same time, certain claims made by some pseudo spiritualists have to be countered so that innocent public are not cheated.

My point is if there is no claim, let us leave it as such.

But if a claim is made, it has to be verified.

All the best

Vanakkam: And I agree. If it can be proven false, then we should. Just as in areas of criminal law. There can definitely be an overattachment to the supernatural which is a side path to the real goal, which is character development, and the realisation of the Self.

Aum Namasivaya

 

[vijisesh]

On a deep thought , many would agree that the reasons our human being with six senses ( more often with an educated human ) , gets into belief of the supernatural healing guru's and their special powers , is when he is in a desparate cornered situation ! and trying to find out a remedy to a problem by hook or crook !

" Ethai Thinnal piththam theliyum !" ( is the quote right ? )

Throughout the lives of a human , there will be a definite period when he feels being let down by all luck totally and there is no way other than a supernatural miracle to help him out . This is when he resorts to help of some of the advanced level practices such as getting the word out of parrot , resorting to people who arrange video conferencing with GOD , and even strictly follow the advice of some of the guru's who would have gained popularity by doing black magic !
It is at this time when the human has to believe more in himself and seek answers from within rather than resorting to higher end rituals ( customized to suit monetary status of the beneficiary !)

 

[pannvalan]

Vijisesh,

You are also confusing rituals - simple/elaborate - with tantric procedures, black magic, occult sciences and healing by the supposed supernatural elements.

What we are discussing here is about the science or no science behind every ritual.
For instance, doing Sandhyavandanam, performing a puja, conducting homams, abhishekam to the moolavar/utsavar, harathi etc. Is there any science behind these rituals or not? If yes, what is the proof?

Now, I hand over the stage to you.

 

[vijisesh]

Shri Pannvalan ji .. Thanks for the clarification !

I suppose i didn't get the difference between a ritual and a tantric procedure in the first place . I suppose for a tantric , it is a ritual in his own books that he follows . Just as you have simple homams and the other higher level homams to get rain , to keep one in power ( ashwamedha ) or some other complicated beliefs ...

A pooja to a specific deity or a simple homam like ganesha homam , sudarshana , navagraha is all to my understanding to be performed to give us mental peace and to add value to our faith in GOD , we trust.

Before we answer the question as to How to prove it ? , I feel we need to answer the question as to what we desire by proving it or working to prove it ,in the first place?
Is it worth the effort ?? and
isn't it questioning our own ethics !
For discussion sake , our fore fathers have mentioned that the gases coming out of homams is good for the performer's family and " Home sweet homes" and shall keep the evil away.
and the commonly known benefits are :
1) To get the families together and be in a Happy celebrative mood. Taking a day off from the tiring routine , listening to their conversations and re-charging the zest in life, with a soothing feeling that there are people to care !.
2) To create an occasion to provide our vadhiyars an opportunity to earn for their livelihood. After all if we do not call them , who else would ??
3) To inculcate and pass on this habit to our offsprings , getting them in line to be kind , compassionate and friendly amongst other family members ! God alone knows who would need help - monetary or physically , at what time and so the near and dear ones need to be intimate , as social beings
4) To motivate each one in the family that we have remembered GOD by doing this homam and have totally surrendered to him at his lotus feet and he shall be there with us at times of need , and this would re-activate the dead cells in the body and get us back to our tracks on whatever , we pursue !
5) And finally as i can think off , to taste good food stuff made by different mami's and enhance the dia of the pot bellies.

There are a few things that have been passed on from the fore-fathers to me which have been done so after they have very much reaped the benefits out of !
So if this thread is just to prove everything scientific then I recommend that the participants should first try to have the guts to discontinue doing their sandhyavandhanam , doing their pujas for the few days during this discussion to attain full benefit of this discussion !
As for me , i shall be an observer on this thread as i don't dare to question the roots of my beliefs ! Thanks again for enlightening me !

 

[kunjuppu]

pann, viji,

i like to keep life as simple as i could.

so, keeping simplicity in perspective, i would also like to add another factor ie ritual can be science, superstition or faith.

take one typical incident, and depending on where one stands in the scale of belief, it can be viewed as any one of the labels in question.

suppose you see a black cat walking across the street just as you are about to undertake a mission.

superstition would mean, that i go back inside the house and stay inside till the prescribed limit of this soonyam elapses before i start on the mission again.

faith would mean i go back inside the house, fetch a bowl of milk, plae the bowl to the side of the steps, cajole the cat into drinking the millk, and while it is doing so, sidestep the cat and proceed with my mission (remember, the cat did not cross across my path).

science would mean that i go back inside the house, fetch my gun, shoot and kill the cat, skin it and place it at the back of my car, so that under no circumstances will the cat dead or alive, will ever be in a position to cross my path.

atleat, that is the way i look at each opportunity. it is what you make of it to be, to achieve your goals.

hope this explains... somewhat.. maybe?

 

[vijisesh]

Good shri kunjuppu ji ,

With the help of this typical incident i shall try and explain my views on what a person would experience if :

1) He would be ritualistic -- meaning that he has got something telling him all the time from the time since he was a child that a cat crossing is a bad omen and believe me , the elders have also given a solution and that being , get home , sit down drink some water and embark on your journey ! Practically , the older generation people often used to get ready atleast 15 mins in advance and so 3-5 mins lost wouldn't make a difference and it would definitely make a difference to his thought process and would help to re-check his strategy / give him a chance to revise through whatever the person he wishes to do ! He is into the habit and cannot get over this behaviour as it is in his blood .

... i give a chance for someone else to give their opinion for faith..

pann, viji,

i like to keep life as simple as i could.

so, keeping simplicity in perspective, i would also like to add another factor ie ritual can be science, superstition or faith.

take one typical incident, and depending on where one stands in the scale of belief, it can be viewed as any one of the labels in question.

suppose you see a black cat walking across the street just as you are about to undertake a mission.

superstition would mean, that i go back inside the house and stay inside till the prescribed limit of this soonyam elapses before i start on the mission again.

faith would mean i go back inside the house, fetch a bowl of milk, plae the bowl to the side of the steps, cajole the cat into drinking the millk, and while it is doing so, sidestep the cat and proceed with my mission (remember, the cat did not cross across my path).

science would mean that i go back inside the house, fetch my gun, shoot and kill the cat, skin it and place it at the back of my car, so that under no circumstances will the cat dead or alive, will ever be in a position to cross my path.

atleat, that is the way i look at each opportunity. it is what you make of it to be, to achieve your goals.

hope this explains... somewhat.. maybe?

 

[pannvalan]

Vijisesh,

Again you are touching only the peripheral issues. Please answer this direct question from me. Why a ritual (as described earlier) should be performed at all? (What is its chief objective?).

What is the scientific principle behind each of the rituals and whether they can be performed in a controlled atmosphere? Whether their inputs and output can be measured with precision and accuracy? Whether the rituals can be suitably modified to obtain the expected results, that too to the required level, each time?

Most importantly, are they conducted in a totally transparent manner for everyone to see without any restraint or restriction and are the methodology and the results verifiable by the professionals/external agencies from the pure sciences field?

Kunjuppu,

As a person, I don't believe in omens (sagunams). So, the cat example cited by you hasn't impressed me. Moreover, I think it is not relevant to the topic, I feel.

See you again.

 

[RVR]

The objective of this thread is not to condemn rituals and give up rituals. Let us be clear about that.

Let us not discuss peripheral issues like cat crossing etc.

Certain claims have been made in the past, a particular ritual `Agnihotram'. Please read the website below

Agnihotra homam saved a family from Bhopal Gas Tragedy : guruvayur appan blogs on sulekha, Health blogs, guruvayur appan blog from india

Why not conduct the above in a simulated condition.

I request the Universities controlled by Kanchi/Sringeri mutts to conduct the above.

If the above claim is proved correct, it is a great boon to our faith. Rationalists mouth could be shut.

Similarly there were claims elsewhere in these forums that certain `raagas' normalises blood pressure, heart beat etc. Why not we do it in controlled conditions and if it is true, publish the results.

Research in science is an endless journey. If science is unable to prove today, it is not the end of the matter. May be a new scientist will prove it tomorrow. Simply science is unable to validate, we are not going to lose faith.

However we have to ensure that we don't make false claims also. If it is pure faith and beyond science, let us leave it at that.

All the best

 

[pannvalan]

It is a curse that we recognise and accept the greatness of our culture, religion and some customs and practices, if and only if they receive ISO 9000 certification (from foreign agencies).

Annamalai University conducted a research way back in 1960s and proved that plants grow faster and yield better, if they are exposed to sweet and harmonious music, every day.

I also read about the Agnihotri surviving the Bhopal disaster in December 1984.

We must study these further and publish the results for the benefit of the humanity (and even the nature), not just Brahmins, Hindus, Indians et al.

I welcome further inputs in this connection from our learned members.

 

[kunjuppu]

Vijisesh,

Kunjuppu,

As a person, I don't believe in omens (sagunams). So, the cat example cited by you hasn't impressed me. Moreover, I think it is not relevant to the topic, I feel.

See you again.

pann,

neither do i believe in sagunams.

soonyams maybe yes, because of many unexplicable sorrows happening of late to my family.

the example of the cat, was just that. three hypothetical situations.

overall, i find, though trying to keep life simple, there are sufficient complexities, such that there is no one solution to fit all questions.

it all depends....

 

[pannvalan]

I will explain it this way.

Under 'problem solving', an adverse situation is tackled in the following ways.

1. Avoiding it, which is the easiest of all options, but not good always. Similar
situation may soon emerge and stare at us on our face. Now, what to do?

2. Postponing. Waiting for a suitable moment for an opportunity to take on. This is
possible, if some time can be gained, by postponement, dilly dallying and
prolonging the negotiations just for the sake of dodging. Here also, losing the
confidence of the other side, at any stage, will bring disaster or destruction.

3. Compromise. Ceding some ground in order to get/retain something else. Some
amount of loss will be there, but it is a wiser option for a person who is on a weak
wicket.

4. Conciliation. By taking help from third parties or by entering into an
understanding with the trouble-maker himself, if the problem is man-made. Here,
one has to shed some ego and pride and also be prepared to lose something. Yet,
it is a win-win situation for both the sides/all. It is the optimum/best solution.

5. Confrontation. Mobilising necessary skills, resources and openly facing the
situation. The outcome may be positive or negative. It will be suicidal for those
who over-estimate their strengths. Even in case of positive outcome, there will be
some loss on one side and greater loss on the other. (Remember the case of
war of attrition). This will result in development of animosity, if human beings are
involved.

6. Submission. This is nothing but ceding defeat right away. Only passivity and
indolence will be present. In other words, leaving everything to fate/destiny and
be prepared to face the worst. Here, human intelligence and efforts are
conspicuous by their absence. This is also very bad, as it will dent self-esteem and
make one look vulnerable to others. They become an easy target for all.

 

[RVR]

Right said Mr. RV Ji.....

The method of living, way of leading the life are all enumerated in ancient texts by our Sages... perhaps which in this modern world are not followed by many... hence it is like "Verum vaayil Aval pottu menna kathai"....... for many of the rationalists....

Many..... I mean lot of incidents can be proved with our Vedic culture.. which is a hidden treasure.... and perhaps many are not known or taught by our ancient scholars and pravarthakaas to their sishyaas.....

I happened to go through a Book on Brihat Samhita translated by one Mr. Chidambara Aiyer who is the founder of Thiruvadi Jotistantra Sabha during the year 1885, printed at Foster Press, Madras...

I was shocked to know that the above original text is presently available in Harvard University, in its College Library.....

This is our tradition.....

Sri Swaminatha Sharma ji,

I don't want the research to be under taken by Harvard University or Max Muller. I want the research to be conducted by our own Kanchi and Sringeri Universities.

Let them conduct effect of music on Plants and publish results

Let them conduct effect of music on heart/blood pressure cases and publish results.

Let them do Agnihotram on poisonous surroundings and its effect on human life.

All the best

 

[[email protected]]

To All: Rituals are waste of Time,Money,and energy. What we are going to get it from? nothing so,let us live according to their will. s.r.k.

 

[anandb]

I will put it this way. Without faith, in some form or the other, a human being cannot survive. For example, when I drive a proven scientific invention like a car, I have this implicit faith that all its parts are working well and I will not meet with an accident though I may not know at all how these parts work with each other. Here we have put our faith on the person who has invented the car and the company who has manufactured it. This in spite of reports of numerous defects found subsequently resulting in major recall of the specific product. This goes for numerous other scientific inventions where the common man has put faith because it is tested and certified for use.

My question is simple. If I do practice a ritual which does not cause any harm to me as an individual or to the society and which actually gives me a benefit (the benefit does not also cause harm to me or society) which I am able to realize gradually by performing the ritual, why do I need scientific proof for that? For example, a ritual like the Sandhyavandana supposedly gives benefits to its performers who realize them in a subtle way then why do these people need any kind of scientific proof for that?

There are 2 things involved here.
1. If I am forcing someone to perform the Sandhya then I need to give scientific proof for that. I have no disputes on that.
2. If I am not forcing someone but someone is demanding proof then it is up to that someone to prove that performing the Sandhya does not give any benefits. Here I will put the onus on the one demanding proof.

Of course it is natural for the person performing a ritual to say that it leads to certain benefits. Partly it is based on what the scriptures say but also partly based on personal experience. The part that is based on experience is difficult to prove by the person experiencing it. How do you prove the subtle changes that is taking place in your mind, in the nadis? The scientific mind may say that these changes are happening not because of the ritual but due to other factors. Here again the onus is on that person to prove it.
For the person performing the ritual cares less. He has put his mind and faith on the ritual which is yielding him benefits. That is enough for him.

Same goes for homam. A homa performed with total shraddha for a couple of hours to the constant chanting of vedic mantras creates terrific vibrations in that place which is experienced by all. All participants vouch to this fact. Now we cannot say that all of them are hallucinating.

So my take on this is the human mind is still young and evolving. There are still many things beyond the realm of our understanding. In stead of just debunking them as irrational, perhaps the scientists can start proving or disproving them. If they prove the rituals as irrational, they would have saved the society from darkness. If they cannot it is probably good to accept them as new knowledge and move on.