People here have wisely avoided so far to blame brahmins for the ills of casteism. I wait for that.
What you & I ,think is immaterial. In the name of social justice, the castes in strength in the
society would corner away all the benefits, in a situation of democracy.
That is why caste based regional parties demand the early release of the details of caste based senses. What is stored in the bandora's box .... nobody could guess.
Eagles are flying around in the sky.
But one thing sure, not anything in favour of Brahs.
So, how or when would you accept that our country, India, would be able to deliver a landmark achievement in science? Do you, with the above reasoning, think that it would never happen?
Notwithstanding your response to the above, I will draw your attention to the fact that both "during the 5000 or so years when the high castes were enjoying all the benefits,", and the current period, where we tend to think that "is it not justice that the lower castes which got a very bad treatment for thousands of years in India, get a preference for at least a few hundred years?", the noteworthy point is that our society is bogged down by a system of discrimination - one was social and the other is political. I am only trying to point out that both these scenarios cannot be called as a level playing field.
If justice is to be meted out then it should be delivered by a process that allows the underprivileged to get literate/educated, and not place them in plum jobs that are critical to the overall integrity and growth of a nation.
It is another discussion as to determine the real underprivileged (lower castes, if you say) of our society who may need a form of justice.
Time has come to relook the entire Reservation Policy afresh.
And only a BJP govt will do this because it is the only political party espousing this view. They much get 2/3rd majority in both houses to even raise this issue. That good day will happen.
Opinions on the reservation system can vary or even be contrarian. But it is here to stay for a long long time, I think. I am a "high caste" person and I oppose the cribbing about reservation system. I knew the position of my children and was prepared, in case it became necessary, to see them as vadhyar or cook or in some small self-employed kind of occupation. They also realised it correctly, I feel, and all of them have settled down abroad; so, as you put it, neither myself nor my progeny is impacted by reservation. I will not ask my children to come back home and their children will grow up in those countries as just "aam aadmis" there. I feel those who are impacted by reservation and those who have children whose future can be so impacted, should honestly discuss with their children and choose one of the alternatives — migrate abroad where there is no reservation against you, or, be satisfied with one of the non-traditional routes. (After all the paraiahs, pulayas, thottis etc., did not have even any such choice for thousands of years.)
Caste based reservation system is used for attracting voters of a particular community to vote for a Caste based political party.
Even Dr B R Ambedkar wanted Political Reservation for SC/ST only for a period of ten years, but the political class extended this for 70 years. The reason is either the Government could not elevate the SC/STs by reservation alone or the benefits do not permeate to all communities under the category.
Mandal Commission Report,( based on which OBC Reservation was introduced), apart from Reservation, gives a lot of other followup steps to be taken. The following extract from an interview with S S Gill, then Secretary of Mandal Commission given to Outlook Magazine will be of interest to understand more on this subject:
"During its discussions the Commission was fully aware that reservations were only a palliative, and 27 per cent reservation in educational institutions and government jobs was only one of several recommendations. Briefly, the other important recommendations were: the radical alteration in production relations through progressive land reforms; special educational facilities to upgrade the cultural environment of the students, with special emphasis on vocational training; separate coaching facilities for students aspiring to enter technical and professional institutions; creation of adequate facilities for improving the skills of village artisans; subsidised loans for setting up small-scale industries; the setting up of a separate chain of financial and technical bodies to assist OBC entrepreneurs.
None of these measures were even casually examined by the government, and then prime minister V.P. Singh adopted the facile and populist route of issuing a one-para order conferring the boon of 27 per cent reservation on OBCs. To this day no serious effort has been made to lay the foundations of structures to enable the deprived classes which will compete with the non-reserved categories on an equal footing."
(Full interview ia available in http://www.outlookindia.com/article/what-mandal-really-wanted/230916)
The problem does not end here. In Karnataka 199 Castes are grouped under the Central list of Other Backward Class. Apart from these many sub-castes are shown under each Caste. Similarly the Tamil Nadu list shows 181 Castes apart from sub-castes. It is common-sense to understand that with the limited vacancies available in Government Jobs and seats in Educational Institutions , it may not be possible to uplift all the people belong to these Castes by Reservation alone. The parameters for selection should be some thing more than Caste criteria.
Time has come to relook the entire Reservation Policy afresh.
I thought you really meant something with your query about the concept of social justice... the threads are precisely to discuss what people like you and me think on the topics.
Perhaps you may be aware that in Indian Corporate Law, there is a concept called protection of Minority Interest. Democracy should not be construed to mean mobocracy. Democracy is only a process of electing the government, and does not necessarily mandate that only the majority should be privileged. Justice should be for all.
Dear Sangom Sir,
Why are you abhorring the ancient system? Why are you putting up a show of social grandstanding now! For whom? For pulling down fellow Brahmins so that they can go down the drain? What sort of social justice is when the meritorious are denied admission on the basis of caste?Even now Brahmins have moved away from those vocations where reservations have acted as a death knell for them..Example Medicine, Legal, Pure Sciences..In jobs they have moved away from IAS, IPS & IFS..And those who take the leftover marry outside the caste, religion and race! As such the community is in doldrums with no State support! Without any mass extermination or planned holocaust, Brahmins are disappearing in numbers!
Why are you allowing yourself to play to the crowd and not standing for our community..You do not even want to put up a modicum of fight and instead allowed yourself to be trampled meekly!
hiBJP or any other party will never even dare to do anything. Of course Modi may blurt out thoughtlessly and get into a "chakkar" later on, just as he has now done himself in OROP. Hinduism is not monolithic and, if BJP removes reservation, lotus will fade away in most places where the reserved castes dominate. That'll then be BJP, RIP!
Note: The Patels of Gujarat have publicly warned yesterday that if they are not gievn OBC status, the Lotus will never again blossom in Gujarat. And we saw a cowering Modi on TV screen pleading for "Shaantata"!
"... put up a modicum of fight
"..and instead allowed yourself to be trampled meekly!"
Opinions on the reservation system can vary or even be contrarian. But it is here to stay for a long long time, I think.. <snip>
We went to a market (Moore market?) and found a small dingy shop. Inside there was this little kid about 16 or 17, may be a bit older. It was clear that the kid did not have any formal education. This kid opened the camera parts, did some Indian Magic and made it work. I know he was getting exploited and perhaps from a village.
கால பைரவன்;314303 said:...But to characterize a contrarian opinion as cribbing reveals a certain intolerance and to suggest that people who do so lack conscience betrays a fanatical mindset. The equanimity which is repeatedly claimed is not visible here.
I don't know why the straw-man of a straw man argument is being brought up. Instead of continually crying horse about how & why the reservation system is unjust, anti-merit and so on, I said we brahmins should look to the way forward. If by chance any of our children are unable to tide over the reservation obstacle, we must be prepared to accept that they take up any self-employed opportunity, instead of always eyeing engineering and medical under merit quota.Rest of the post contains the usual straw-man arguments. No one claimed that the brahmins should resign themselves to fate as a result of quotas. I am happy for your children who have worked hard to reach a position where they are not impacted by sectarianism seen in India in the form of reservations.
Shri Ganesh ji,
According to me, this forum and discussions here, are not occasions to "stand up for our community" just without any real basis or cause. Even if tomorrow the GOI convenes a meeting with representatives of all types of brahmins in India to discuss whether the reservation benefits can be extended to them, and even if all the brahmin representatives "stand up" for the community, do you honestly feel that our such "standing up for the community" will deliver any favourable result? I am 100% sure it will not.
Institutions kept out of the purview of reservation
The following institutions have been kept out of the purview of Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in Admission) Act, 2006:,[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
- Homi Bhabha National Institute, Mumbai and its ten constituent units, namely:
- Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Trombay
- Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam
- Raja Ramanna Centre for Advanced Technology, Indore
- Institute for Plasma Research, Gandhinagar
- Variable Energy Cyclotron Centre, Kolkata
- Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics, Kolkata;
- Institute of Physics, Bhubaneshwar
- Institute of Mathematical Sciences, Chennai
- Harish-Chandra Research Institute, Allahabad
- Tata Memorial Centre, Mumbai
- Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai
- North Eastern Indira Gandhi Regional Institute of Health and Medical Sciences, Shillong
- Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad
- Space Physics Laboratory, Thiruvananthapuram
- Indian Institute of Remote Sensing, Dehradun
- Shri Mata Vaishno Devi University, Katra
7. The issue of reservation is in fact older than the independence itself and wikipedia gives Jyotiba Phule demanding reservations for backward classes way back in 1882 and Chatrapati Sahu Maharaj of Maratha dynasty implementing such scheme way back in 1901.
8. While talking about reservations, you conveniently club non-forward class/caste along with dalits etc. While you miss no chance to point out Krishna as an ordinary petty king and not Lord Sri Krishna as many Hindus believe, you have no qualms in supporting the reservations enjoyed by the Yadu dynasty. Why should a king, a ruler, and his dynastic members need a reservation as a level playing field in free India is hard to comprehend.
9. Nalanda and Taxila being the centres of Higher learning way back in 5th century BC have been reported by many and these learning institutes of higher learning or Universities had many foreign students and local students. One does not find any mention of higher class, lower class, indigenous or foreign students etc therein.
10. The very fact that some academic institutions are left out of this reservation theme only goes to show that the intention of the government is that "largesse" of the government should be shared by the whole population in equal measure and does not have the high ideals of correcting the 5000 year old syndrome.
11. It was hard to miss your glee in noting the absence of Sri Kunjuppu who would recount tales and tales of how corrupt brahmin officials were, as if their mere existence in the past in itself should disentitle brahmins in voicing their views of their being denied (whether such a view is just or unjust) in this forum. It is another matter that Sri Kunjuppa became scarce in this forum after Ozone, another member (now not participating) put some hard questions to Sri kunjuppu and Kunjuppu has found no means to address it inspite of lapse of 4 years.
12. Reservation as a theme will survive only as long as shortage and affordability exist. We do not find any one *cribbing* about admission to primary schools or not having landline telephone connections (as in the not so distant past). The main reason is that people can find them or their substitutes in affordable range. The State had monopolized education and the strings have loosened only in the past decade and it is just a matter of time before this reservation in admission noise will subside at least in higher education. Now facilities are available and people will find means to make it affordable.
13. I would think you are out of sync with reality to be harbouring the notion that for 100s of years (if not for 5000 years) that Reservations are here to stay as a permanent fixture.
Almost any person in India knows well that the numerically insignificant brahmins, who cannot influence even one parliamentary seat anywhere, can never ever make any change to the reservation system. If, therefore, somebody has a delutional idea that by merely saying, repeatedly, in a Forum like this, to the effect that the reservation system does harm the coming up of people with merit, integrity, etc., and thus causes backwardness of the country, will be a hilarious item. That's all. Pointing this out is not a fanatical mindset, but taking objection to such "pointing out" denotes a narrow and fanatical mindset which does not tolerate the contrarian view.
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