Rama Setu is sacred, place of worship: UOI & SC should NOT play with fire

[Ramaa]

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Kunjuppu,

I have high regards for you. Rest assured.

Re: Canada, I am learning from you, a friend, having lived there for years. இக்கரைக்கு அக்கரை பச்சையோ?!

But if I were to step aside and think about it I am tempted to make the following observations:

The difference between India and Canada for those Europeans who went to these places some 350 years ago or more is the following.

India was already well populated and had a vibrant history, civilization and tradition. Any settlement in it could only be in the absorption in its strong current. Unlike the Islamists the Europeans had a stronger roots in their homeland that eventually they abandoned the colony and went home.

Canada on the other hand had a sparce population and huge land. I think this would apply to the whole of North America and even Australia and Newzealand. The blood spilled in South America could have been far greater for their was a more established civilization of the Incas.

In any case the white man made it their 'home' in these new lands. Even the umblical cord with Britain was severed in a couple of centuries.

With increasing immigration into these countries from countries around the globe and the variety of ethnic population, I figure the guilt factor that you mention would begin to diminish. Their beliefs, culture and traditions of the igloo living, fishing and hunting natives, I am afraid, may not compete well with those of the various immigrants. I am sure that there is no conversion factor either as have been attempted on us Indians by the Abrahamic religions.

So the situation is one of practicality. Religion is the culture of the 'head' and the 'home' where it should be and in public no one should outsmart the other with his culture. I had heard that the Sikhs had turban and kirpan issue and the Muslims had the purdha issue. They were trying to bring their religions from their homes and places of worship to public places and places of work. I have not heard much about since then. Perhaps I was not paying attention. You can help us with the developments.

I believe, by and large, there is amity between the citizenry and Karunanidhis cannot make money dividing people on being Brahmin or otherwise! Oh, yea, I heard Englishmen and Frenchmen are at each other's throat. How is it going?

 

[Saab]

Pioneer-RamSetu-13May2008​

Footprints of Sri Ram​

Sandhya Jain​

The current controversy over Ram Setu presents an ideal opportunity to probe the reality of a god whose human incarnation is central to Hindu faith. The deity who inspired a footbridge wide enough for an army to cross the Palk Straits poses a powerful challenge to historians who hold that India’s first political states were the sixteen mahajanapadas that fought to control the Ganga valley in the sixth-fifth centuries BCE. The kings of Kashi, Koshal, and the Vrijji Confederacy succumbed to Magadh under Bimbisara (c. 543–491 BCE). Much later, after Alexander’s retreat, the Mauryan Empire (322–185 BCE) rose by deposing the Nanda Dynasty.
Can history accept that Koshal (which included Ayodhya) was an older kingdom; that a prince banished after a palace coup could raise a formidable force and cross an ocean to recover his abducted wife? Closely linked is the veracity of Valmiki Ramayana as ‘itihas’, not kavya; the existence of a temple in the Janmabhoomi; and the evidence of human intervention at the Setu.
Chandragupta Maurya’s mentor, Kautilya, treated Ramayana and Mahabharata as familiar history. In the Adhikarana dealing with discipline, the author of Arthasastra advises shunning the vices of lust, anger, greed, vanity, haughtiness and excessive joy, for R avana perished because he was too vain to restore a stranger’s wife; Duryodhana because he would not part with a portion of his kingdom.
Ram’s life resonated in art from the time image-making began. Kausambi, UP, has the earliest terracotta depiction of a Ramayana scene, datable 2nd-1st century BCE, which shows Ravan abducting Sita and the latter throwing her ornaments on the ground to help Ram to trace her (described in Aranya Kanda, 54th Sarga, Slokas 2, 3). This coincides with the period when Buddha’s life began to be portrayed in stone, notably at Sanchi and Bharhut, MP. If the latter are accepted as true episodes from the Sakya Muni’s life, it follows that the real story of Rama was being depicted in the Hindu art of the same period. Los Angeles County Museum has a terracotta sculpture of Rama from Nachara Khera, Haryana, with an inscription saying “Ram,’ in Brahmi script of the 3rd century CE.
Scholars believe an earlier narrative formed the kernel of the written Ramayan, which was completed between 3rd century BCE and 3rd century CE. The Buddhist Jatakas are almost contemporaneous with Valmiki; possibly both drew on an older source. The earliest Tamil Sangam literature, dating a couple of centuries before the CE, mentions the exploits of Rama. A verse in the Purananuru collection says that when Ravana was carrying Sita away, she dropped her ornaments as clues to her whereabouts (depicted very early in art).
Three Buddhist Jatakas which form part of the Khuddaka-nikaya, 3rd century BCE, deal with the Ram story, with minor variations. The Dasaratha Jataka is set in Varanasi, not Ayodhya; however, Ram gives his sandals to Bharat to rule the kingdom on his behalf. The Nidana of the King of Ten Luxuries is lost, but survives in a Chinese translation by Kekaya in 472 CE. Similarly, the Anamaka Jataka or Jataka of the Unnamed King is preserved in Chinese translation by Sogdian monk Kan-Seng-hui in 251 CE.
The Jain Ramayanas are in Sanskrit, Prakrit, Apabhramsa, and Kannad a. The canonical 2nd century Anuyogadvara lists many works, including Ramayanam; but Vimala Suri’s Pauma-chariyam, 5th century, is the earliest version, along with Vasudevahindi. There followed Ramayana of Svayambhu in Apabhramsa (8th century); Mahapurana of Pushpadanta in Prakrit (10th century); Pampa Ramayana by Nagachandra (11th century); and Jina Ramayana by Chandrasagar Varni (19th century). Nagachandra records a tradition that the ancient inhabitants of Kishkinda were not monkeys but a tribe whose banner carried the insignia of a monkey.
Sri Lanka is integral to the story; this calls for a credible explanation if a north Indian poet was imagining events from a jungle haven . Sri Lanka has many sites associated with the Ramayana. Its literary texts include Janaki-harana by Kumaradasa, 7th century. As Janaki (Sita) was abducted to Lanka, this is of natural interest to a Lankan poet. Ram’s travails made their way to China, Tibet, Mongolia, Japan, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia, and found representation in the visual and plastic arts.
Archaeology has yielded much since Prof. B.B. Lal began excavating the ‘Ramayana Sites’ in 1972. The demolition of 6 December 1992 yielded valuable material from the walls of Babri Masjid, including three inscriptions. Decipher ed by renowned epigraphist Prof. Ajaya Mitra Shastri of Nagpur University, the largest, in classical Nagari script of 11th-12th century, said a temple of Vishnu-Hari was constructed in the temple city of Ayodhya, Saketamandala. Supreme Court mandated excavations of 2002-03 indicate that the earliest habitations at Ayodhya go back well before 1000 BCE (possibly 1980-1320 BCE).
So what are the true credentials of the 30-km. chain of sandbanks, underlain by coral reefs and limestone shoals, from Dhanushkodi in Tamil Nadu to Talaimannar in Sri Lanka? In the 11th century, Alberuni noted: “…Setubandha means bridge of the ocean. It is the dike of Rama, the son of Dasaratha, which he built from the continent to the castle Lanka. At present it consists of isolated mountains between which the ocean flows.” A 16th-17th century map shows a land-link between India and Sri Lanka; Ramanathapuram Gazetteer refers to Sethu Palam. The 13th century Venetian, Marco Polo, speaks of ‘Setabund Rameshwara’, bridge related to Rama. Coins by Tamil kings of Nallur in Jafna (Sri Lanka), who ruled between the 13th and 17th centuries, affirm the existence of Rama Setu.
A cross-section of the setu with present sea level as datum-line shows many sandbanks above sea-level. The last Glacial period ended 10,000 years ago; subsequently sea levels rose by a conservative 2 metres per 1000 years. Microsoft Encarta 2006 says melting of ice sheets in Flandrian Transgression caused separation of Ireland from Great Britain; and of Great Britain from mainland Europe.
Ayodhya excavations suggest Ram’s era fell around 1000 BCE, when the sea level was probably 6 metres below current levels, exposing the entire land-mass near Dhanushkodi to Talaimannar. The odd stretch underwater could easily be filled up to create a ford to cross over. A close up of the Setu shows firm edges on both sides (to prevent erosion), suggestive of human agency.

EOM​

​

__._,_.___ Dharmo rakshati rakshitah

 

[Saab]

Dear Ramaaji,

You have written in reference to Canada as follows:

Religion is the culture of the 'head' and the 'home' where it should be and in public no one should outsmart the other with his culture. I had heard that the Sikhs had turban and kirpan issue and the Muslims had the purdha issue. They were trying to bring their religions from their homes and places of worship to public places and places of work.

Here is a news item that might interest you in this connection.

SC refuses to interfere on French Govt's law to ban turban
Tuesday May 13 2008 18:12 IST PTI

NEW DELHI: France's decision to ban the turban of Sikhs and other conspicuous religious symbols on Tuesday came up before the Supreme Court which however refused to enter into the controversy saying it has no jurisdiction to interfere into the law of foreign land.

"We can only protect the fundamental rights of the citizens within the boundary of India. Fundamental rights cannot be protected in foreign land," a Bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan said.

The court was hearing a petition filed by a Sikh body, Singh Legal Foundation, seeking Centre's intervention to protect the fundamental rights of citizens of India within the country and abroad.

The Foundation contended that since the French law banning the wearing of turban violates the fundamental rights of Indian Sikhs living in that country it was the duty of the government here to defend the rights in foreign land.

However, the Bench said any grievance against the French law can be raised in the court in that country. The Foundation can also take up the matter with the International Court of Justice or European Court, it said.

To this, the counsel appearing for the Sikh body said the right of ethnic minorities to practice and preserve their traditions and customs in terms of the Constitutional provisions of India has to be read with the International Conventions which guarantees a right of religious group to maintain their separate and distinct identity.

The Centre should take the issue in right earnest to safeguard the religious and cultural interests of its citizens who have migrated to other countries, the counsel said.

However, the Bench said Government has taken up the issue with French authorities and that it cannot give any direction.

 

[kunjuppu]

ramaa,

this is reply to your 6:10 pm posting. thank you very much for the same sir.

if you bear with this rather long letter, i will address each of your topics, as nothing delights me more than queries

re இக்கரைக்கு அக்கரை பச்சையோ, there are three elements needs to be dynamically balanced - இக்கரை, அக்கரை & பச்சை.

maybe i can give an example from my own life? i have lived in canada for over 34 years, and the u.s.a. is an அக்கரை constantly beckoning us. i am an admirer of the u.s.a in that, that society is the best in the world, i think, for people with drive, ambition, hard work and have something to offer. since i am none of that, and i am convinced of that, to me இக்கரை was ok. பச்சை is a state of the mind - ofcourse one can have bigger houses, bigger cars, bigger garages, bigger what not in the u.s. but where do we draw the line? to me, the governing factors, in the initial years, were to get my parents here, which canada allowed. later, it became my wife's career, which was not portable to the u.s. and now in our autumn years, the canadian healthcare anyday is better to me, as it is free, and of a good standard variety. still.

re the next few paragraphs: it is a complex issue. i think the europeans emigrated, becasue europe was poor. the weather being unfavourable for a good part of the year especially in northern europe, starvation during these months was a regular phenomenon. emigration was an option for a few. most of europe stayed behind, and the resulting upheavels of the 20th century, has killed more than 60 million people in my estimate. it is a very violent, yet fascinating civilzation.

we talk with pride of the ancient empires of tamil nadu or of northern india. these are but centuries gone. the british empire, in toto, was a reality till 1947. yet surprisingly in today's britain, there is none of the chauvinistic or jingoistic pride about the greatness of their imperialism. the fact is the british empire encompassed about 20% of the world land mass and that is no mean achievement for a country the size of tamil nadu and with a comparable population. still, millions of ex ruled people, have made their home in britain since the 1950s and have prospered. i always feel, that we can always take a leaf or two from others, adapt it, and use it to our own benefit. true, britain did not populate india, but it left behind traditions and histories, which are as much our heritage as the mughals, guptas, mauryas, cholas, pandyas, marathas and vijayanagar. i see it from this perspective, and i have no residual ill feeling towards the british. just that it is all in the past, and if we are not careful to learn the lessons from it, we tend to repeat it. history is just that. it happened. no point shedding tears over losses or rejoicing over gains. the clock can never turn back.

britain treated its colonial people as second class or less. the french were a colinized by the english in canada. ther french came first, populated quebec, and the english defeated them. so quebec became a second class citizenry of english ruled canada. but by mid century 20th century, the quebec nationalists, acquired power, and overthrew the ruling minority british elite out of quebec, and established their own rule, on their own terms. french culture and french language again ruled supreme.having once gained power, the french in quebec, quickly became the ruling class, and made peace with the remnants of the english still living there. most of the english elite left quebec for other parts of canada.

today quebec wields proportionately more power in canadian federal politics. again due to concentrated vote to one party which by virtue of numbers gives it more influence than what its population warranties. for example if there are total 300 seats, quebec votes all its 120 seats to one party (usually the liberals). so all that liberals have to do is to get 40 seats from the rest of canada, and they are in power. i am simplifying the situatation, but that is just for clarity. the concept still stands.

ramaa, i hope i have addressed your queries from my perspectives.

thank you for giving me this ooportunity.

 

[Ramaa]

Rama Leela: Rama Setu Protection Movement and Case in Supreme Court

"Since culture is the highest expression of what it means to be human, the Ram Setu Bridge should be preserved and viewed as belonging to all humanity," says Kerry van der Jagt in the Sydney Herald of 11 May 2008. See his full article appended as pdf document at the URL cited above.

Some remarkable coincidences and highlights are presented (to be read in the context of over 8000 pages of documentation in over 160 topics presented to the Courts -- on implications of desecrating Rama Setu and the national and international laws which render the SC incompetent to judge on issues of faith and worship).

One wonders why ASI should study the Setu through exploration. It is an undeniable cultural fact that over 5 lakh pilgrims congregate on Ashadha Amavasya day to offer pitru tarpanam (offerings to ancestors) and perform setusnaanam at the Setutirtham (as Parantaka Chola did in the 10th cent.) This fact is enough to declare Rama Setu as an ancient monument, world heritage and Rameshwaram environs as Divyakshetram.

Six coincidences

Cho Balakrishnan, a Congress MLA of Ramanathapuram District went to break the coconut inaugurating Setusamudram project work. He had a heart attack and died the same evening.

The Aquarium dreger of Dredging International of Belgium was engaged to break the Rama Setu. Its spud broke and the 50-tonne elephant like metal scrap is still lying on Sandbank 6 of Rama Setu unsalvaged.

A crane named Hanuman was brought from Dredging Corporation of India in VIshakapatnam to recover the broken spud. The Hanuman crane which could lift upto 200 tonnes also broke and had to return.

A dredger of DCI sank in the Bay of Bengal even before reaching Rama Setu.
A Russian engineer and a foreign dredger were brought to continue the effort to break Rama Setu. The engineer broke both his legs and had to be hospitalized in Apollo Hospital.

Tamilnadu Congress President Mr. Krishnaswami was attacked by unknown assailants on his way from Rama Setu towards Madurai. An attempted stabbing was foiled by the Rama medallion he wore on his gold chain. His family members attributed this saving of his life by Rama medallion.

Stay order in SC

Reliable and authentic information was received from a number of sources that plans were in place to blast through Rama Setu since attempts at dredging using dredgers had failed.

The sources were: Naval High Command, Scientists and experts knowledgeable about blasting operations, a photographer who was assigned to photograph the specific spots on Rama Setu where blasting explosives were to be implanted. Information from all the sources were confirmed on the day the Sri Rama Maha Yajna was being conducted in Rameshwaram close to Rama Setu.

Dr. Subramanian Swamy put all this information on a one-page affidavit and went to the SC Registrar (Shri Shah) requesting for listing a hearing on the affidavit. The Registrar expressed his inability to list the case immediately in the absence of and since the Chief Justice Mr. Balakrishnan had been deputed on a tour to South Africa. He was asked whether any other senior judge could act on behalf of the CJI. That Senior-most judge was Justice BN Agarwal who was then contacted with the requested. The Justice asked Mr. Shah what was the problem in listing the case for hearing. Upon hearing Mr. Shah's response, Justice Agarwal asked, 'Does the Constitution come to a stand-still because CJI is on tour? Please list the case that day, that afternoon.'

The case was listed as the last item of the day. The affidavit was the only piece of paper with the Judges BN Agarwal and Naolekar. Govt. Counsel was asked if he denied the averments in the affidavit. The Counsel was asked if he would give an undertaking that no blasting would be done on Rama Setu because the petitioners claimed that blasting Rama Setu would render the petitions infructuous. The Counsel refused to give such an undertaking. Stay order was given that no damage should be caused to Rama Setu while implementing the Setu project.

Highlights in SC

'Bhoomaata is sacred, trees are sacred, mountains are sacred, Ganga is sacred. Does it mean that no trees can be cut, no stone can be taken from the mountains and no bridge built on Ganga?' was the question by a judge the Bench. Senior Counsel, Soli Sorabjee responded: 'What a stupid question to ask.' And went on to elaborate on the restrictions placed on SC by Article 25 of the Constitution which guaranteed Religious Freedom. SC had no competence to question issues of Faith and Worship. Rama Setu was a sacred monument and was a place of worship. Another Senior Counsel Parasaran went on to explain the nature of the worship according to the sacred texts.

'What is the problem? Only 300 m. channel is sought to be furrowed in a structure of over 35 kms.' Response by the Counsel for the petitioners: Not even a centimetre of Rama Setu can be touched because the character of the monument as a bridge (that is, Setu) will be destroyed by cutting a furrowed channel.

Bench asked Senior Counsel Parasaran: 'How come you are on this side of the courtroom?' (referring to the fact that he was arguing the case for the petitioners in stead of representing the Union of India). The Counsel responded: 'I am at the fag-end of my career and life. This may be one of the few last cases I will appear for. I go to Rameshwaram at least 3 times every year and near by native village, Devipattinam. I offer prayers to Rama Setu by drawing a dhanush at Dhanushkodi, making a Shivalinga out of the sacred lands, doing sankalpa, abhishekam and immersing the linga after puja in the ocean. This is an opportunity for me to serve dharma. This is also an opportunity for the Court to participate in the protection of Dharma.'

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman (11 May 2008)
---------------------------------------------
Dr. Kalyanaraman is one of the litigants against the government's move to break up Ramasethu.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Thanks for the detailed info on Canada.

I hear lot of people of Indian origin/Hindus in Canada. Do they feel Canada as a 'melting pot' like the U.S. or can they have their own identity and celebrate it unhindered?

I know post 9/11 Muslims felt insecure in the U.S. How do they feel in Canada a friendly neighbour to the U.S.?

I know that Canada is largely a Christian nation whether they speak English or French. I even heard of separatist movement by the French. Will this language war continue for ever or what kind of resolution possible? I understand that Spanish is becoming an increasing second language in the U.S. What lessons the U.S. will learn from the Canadian experience?

I love to know it from the man on the ground.

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[kunjuppu]

ramaa,

the brown folks in canada come not only from south asia, but also south asians who left for south africa, fiji, the west indies, england and east africa, among other places. it is quite an interesting experience to talk to them. these are all religions, and most are more westernized than us.

from india itself, the sikhs are the largest community. the srilankan tamils are the largest hindu community, and through them we have quite a few temples, restaurants, access to tamil culture. they are a very industrious and hard working lot, with lot of anxieties about their kith and kin at home.

interestingly, the conservative muslims are the politically active ones. they prevailed on the provincial ontario government (toronto capital) to permit sharia rules for their civil issues. the government agreed, only to rescind the order a few months later, as it soon became evident, that this was an avenue for female suppression and wife abuse. recently, the conservative party wanted to support religious school funding as an election platform. soon enough the media was full of comments, that this would lead to state funded madhrassas. the party did not get elected. so there is a deep suspicion of islamic culture as is practised by the muslims here. this is how i see it and i may be offbase.

canada, like the rest of west, is now considered a post christian society. christianity is looked upon now as culture, architecture, music, civilization and not particularly with the religiosity that you find in indian christians. church attendance is low. but there is a big pride in their history. in many sense the west is truly secular, in the sense, religion does not play any part in the peoples' lives. or if it does, it is kept very private.

the french in canada, like all other western groups, have a low birth rate. they do not replace themselves. so they need immigrants. the french speaking immigrants are all from africa and they are muslim. so there is a clash of culture. so quebec is at cross roads. they want the french language and culture to flourish. but without youngsters to carry the flag, how can they do it.

the situation in the u.s re spanish immigrants is different. the usa is experiencing a giant invasion of people. it is estimated that about 10% (30 million) illegals are in the usa. they do the menial jobs and come from mexico and the rest of south america. they are an integral part of the u.s. economy. the border is porous and it is very difficult to police it. the only way to control it, is to bring identity passes, and have regular checks. the freedom loving americans will not go for that. so they have to live with these illegals, who due to lack of educational opportunities, and due to their sheer numbers, can be assertive enough to retain their language and culture, and not assimilate into the anglo world. no matter how you look at it, this is an invasion - peaceful or otherwise.

but the americans are ready to make a buck wherever possible. the latinos, as the spanish speaking people are called, still need goods and necessities. so spanish stores, language publications, food, money remittance channels etc are flourishing. white americans are more amenable to learning spanish, because they do not see it as threatening, like islam or china or the erstwhile ussr. that these people are also christians, helps reduce the sense of alienation or threat.

hope this explains.

thank you. and please feel free to query more. i do enjoy the banter.

but please keep in mind, that these are just my personal views and need not necessarily be objective. these could be disputed, argued, disagreed and tossed into garbage by other members.

 

[Ramaa]

Thanks Kunjuppu for the objective reporting. Very informative. When you were mentioning about the French Canadians not reproducing themselves you remind me of our own Tamil Brahmin community. We are shrinking not only through emigration but by our refusal to replace ourselves. Demographically we are facing disaster like the parsis.

With the oil wealth diminishing and the constant wars of attrition and the oppressive religious practices relating to the yongsters in general and the women in particular in the Arab world, the muslims there are on the move demographically towards Europe. The mullahs goes with them and insist on the purdhas and the like and that brings clash with the natives in Europe. And Christianity is at crossroads in the west and could very well opt for its slow and steady demise. I am afraid that Islam might fill the vaccuum. How do you see this trend?

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[indian]

Hey all ... for a change :

For those who are believers and not thinkers:
What I heard from elders is Ram did not want the Sethu to be protected. If Rama or the ancient hindus wanted, they could have protected the sethu themselves. What I heard was that the sethu was destroyed by Rama for the welfare of the man kind. What we see as calamities in China and Burma are nothing but the signs from Rama telling us that the sethu be destroyed.

For people who are :
The sethu was never a conventional kind of bridge. It was just floating stones, a foot wide which Rama eventually sunk it under the ocean after rescueing Sita fearing that the outsiders will follow them. Note that it was just foot wide . You are not believing that there are remains of the bridge even after several lakh years of its laying, are you ?

Now if you argue that the Sethu is a sacred site for worship because Ram crossed it with his foot ? Then have you declared the foot-path from Ayodhya to Rameshwaram as sacred and stopped constructing roads and rails ?

 

[indian]

Ramaa. please think why Rama or the ancient hindus never protected the sethu. The Sethu which the holy Ram constructed was not to be revered. That was the reason why it was desctroyed by Rama. Can you now declare something sacred which was destroyed by the Lord ? Are you not breaching the will of Lord Rama ? Is the senseless violence , earth-quakes and cyclones a sign that we are revering the asuras ?

 

[Ramaa]

Thank you Indian. You are very cute in your posting! Keep posting more jokes!

 

[indian]

Is it a joke ? People dying everywhere .. earth-quake and all that ?

 

[Ramaa]

I meant about your joke on Ramasethu.

 

[indian]

Hmmm.. So you dont agree that the Lord destructed the Sethu intentionally after retreating from Sri Lanka ?

Isnt the entire issue about politics ? If you are a relative of Subramanian Swamy you must be knowing that he was paid a hefty amount right ?

 

[Ramaa]

Perhaps you are his relative. Tell me all about it.

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you ramaa.

re islam overrunning christianity, who can predict the future?

xtianity has been under threat from islam before, and even more dangerously. after all the turks came within the walls of vienna. the moors ruled spain/portugal for 700 years. france was threatened by the sea. in any future wars, i expect russia to join the west, now that the atheist communism has gone.

the west is resilient and warlike. so i would never underestimate the west.

in india, we live among the muslims. i think most of them are of the same bloodlines as us. since we share the same country, it is best we live together peacefully and harmony. otherwise, the country will go to dogs.

yes, we tamil brahmins are shrinking. this is a fact, and our mindset has to adapt to the new realities. by choice or by default, we will be mixing with other communities. personally, i think when our children marry other communities, we should welcome the stranger, and make them feel extra welcome. they cannot be expected to know our customs. but we can show them, and by being extra welcoming, we have now a new addition to our community. this is another way to increase our numbers. i think we will have a reservoir of goodwill if we welcome brides/grooms from other communites to our fold. it is best we take advantage of it to augment our numbers. for future's sake.

but it will not work, for those who believe, that one has to be a brahmin by birth. for those, the falling birth rate puts the whole situation in a different perspective. i think. i have no suggestions for those folks.

i think of myself in this order - hindu first, tamil second. my children,having grown up in the west, have no caste as they would have difficulty in accepting the casteist hierarchy. personally, i feel for the panchamars and they have been given a bad deal under varnashrama. this is a personal thing. which maybe another reason, i feel myself comfortable as a hindu, and mix with others going to the hindu temple, without giving too much thought to their caste. caste to me, is more a tribal thing, than a religious stricutre. again, this is personal, and could differ substantially from another person in this forum.

when it comes to religion, even within our own community, we have different views, as is evidenced by posts by nacchi, krs and others. so my philosophy, is whatever suits each one's comforts and faith, should be ok.

one way of looking at our tamil brahmin diaspora, is that it has been a blessing in disguise. it has taken the brunt out of any devastating effect of the changes brought forth by the dravidian movement in tamil nadu. away from tamil nadu, we have prospered and are a model for other tamil communities to emulate. if at all anything, they want to be like us, in our material and educational successes. imitation is the best form of flattery. i say it with humility, and not with any jingoism or boastfulness. i say it, because, i sense that is what is happening. i may be wrong.

our migration started at the turn of the 20th century. it was driven by drive, ambition, keeping up with the joneses, hard work, love of adventure and all such positive attributes. by the time the dravidian movement came into the picture in 1967, a good percentage had already left tamil nadu. now the youngsters are returning. again, irrespective of the entrenchment of the dravidian movement in tamil nadu. they appear to be confident to deal with it. good stuff.

re your query about melting pot, it is bound to happen. my children have indicated that they will do their own choosing of mates and me/spouse are ok with it. i have given my children some broad guidelines re choice of their spouses. these are based on evaluation through the head, and not of the heart. the heart will be the first, but head has to prevail for long term relationships. but there is no guarantee in life.

thank you again for your queries. i hope i have addressed them all. best wishes.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear kunjuppu,

People world over have many things in common however the ideas that have entered their head particularly thorugh religion makes them different. There is no magic wand to make everyone to have one idea. That would also be dull and drab!

Many people in India have tried to reason with Muslims that they were decendents of forced convertees and as free people should look back and seize the heritage that was robbed of them. It is too much to ask for and not easy to adopt too. So the conflict would continue often as seen in yesterday's bombing in the pink city on Hanuman temples by the Muslim terrorist outfit that is said to be based in Bangladesh. See the distance they have covered to reach Rajasthan. Very scary.


When our community is no more homogenous the risk of frittering away is more. I was reading in a website of a Hindu group in the U.S. where the problems of convertees to Hinduism were discussed. The convertees were mostly white people. They came out of conviction and not like the cheri vaasis of India converting to Christianity for a few rupees. But their conviction is not often found in their children who seem to drift towards agnosticism or back to Christianity or even something else. In other words, the drift and dispersal becomes complete. I find the cause to be the new economy or so called global economy. I myself travel quite a lot in connection with my work. We all work for companies that go broke as often. This started even in my grand-father's days when he was a headmaster who was transferred every three years and the family didn't know which place to call home.

I am afraid the break neck speed with which the social disintegration is taking place is going to be disastrous even though we might think there is benefit in it in the interregnum. We might turn out to be the 'busvaanams' bright but short-lived. Those who have missed the 'development' might only be survivors having seen a nightmare!

My parents knew only one thing - to send their children to college. Their belief was that once a person has education the life is easy because he gets a job that brings a lot of money to live a comfortable life.We brothers have talked a lot about our children. My brother and his wife, both are scientists, have come to the conclusion that it is not just the education but the kind of education that is important for their children. So they have decided to send both their sons to Gurukulam to get Vedic education in addition to education in languages and math and science. My wife and I are tending to go the same route. This way they will have a choice to miss the 'development' route if they want.

In the next 20 or 30 years India could be a shining star in the world with both the advancement that were the prerogative of the west yet keep the pride of its past glory. There is the possibility of reverse brain drain taking place.

Places like the U.S., Canada, Australia and Europe may become more of tourist destination rather than place of refuge. Perhaps I am dreaming and perhaps I may have the incling of what's to happen.

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[kunjuppu]

ramaa,

i understand and feel for your concerns in the first two paragraphs.

try to be optimistic, for one thing that life has taught me, is that it is full of surprises. easy for me to say, but a cautious optimism, is a narrow path useful in navigating the fears and phantoms caused by those fears. it has worked for me, most times. a few times situation is hopeless. such is life!

ramaa, it is a big enterprise to handle our day to day affairs. even that is sometimes unmanageable. how can you concern ourself with the future of an entity such as hinduism, and try to find solutions. an ant is made to lift only one sugar crystal. you can imagine when the same ant attempts to life a sack of sugar! too heavy!!

try to keep your life simple by resolving little things and don't worry too much about big things. big things have a way of working themselves out and most of the situations that you fear for, we as a person have no influence or control. assume only so much load that you can carry. and that too with ease.

i do agree with your brother's decision re gurukulum. who knows, in a different setting i might have done the same thing. to teach the children the best of philosophical hinduism and not necessarily the rituals. probably the hinduism of ramanuja as was taught by the saint himself. i came to know more of ramanuja only lately.

ramaa, you read and responded to my experiences in gaya. my teenage son wanted to accompany me for the trip. something in me resisted and so he stayed back. in retrospect, i am glad that my son did not come.

his concept of hinduism is a simpler one. seeing the corruption incorporated into the rituals and the extreme situations that i witnessed would have turned my son away from hinduism. as such, what he knows is from the books and puranas, and not of the rituals and casteism with its accompanying evils. he is a comfortable hindu never ashamed to say that he is one. he is vaguely aware of castes and inequalities. but that is not part of his hinduism. i will leave him that way.

the pace of changes of our world is amazing. most of our uncertainties are fed by the distance between our mindset (which is probably frozen at some point in time) and the environment outside (which appears to rush ahead of time). i try to imagine myself as trying to be one step ahead of the world, but i have to confess, that it is a challenge even to keep up with it.

here is a little mental exercise for you. keep a record of what you think and do in a day. try to imagine, how your father would have dealt with it, including the technology not available then and his mindset. now a days, i do this ever so frequently just to gauge how far we have changed. change happens. best to accept and adapt. reduces tension.

God Bless and peace.

 

[Ramaa]

Kunjuppu,

Reading your last post is like reading a treatise on the misery of samsaara!

The struggle is between crossing and drowning!

The one who drowns in it reappears in it elsewhere in the same samsaara! That is why it is called samsaara saagara. It never ends for one even by his death!

The one who crossed it is never to return!

kunjuppu, it is upto each one to determine whether to cross the ocean of samsaara or to accept it as a fait accompli and give up any attempt altogether.

The question is: which of the two above should be the pursuit?

There are three methods suggested for crossing. Each one is equally valid and each one suits the temperament of the individual.

Sanyaasa is the method of the renunciate who abandons all karmas whether they belong to an individual such as career or that belongs to a family such as getting married and raising children or of the collective such as taking responsibility to fellowmen from heading a public association or ruling a country.

The Sanyaasi determinedly denies to himself the temptation of pride associated with the above karmas.

The next is the unflinching loyalty and total surrender to the devine and endure the pains of samsaara. Lots of tears are shed both in agony as well as in ecstacy in this method called Bhakthi.

The last but not the least is the pursuit by the intellect of the Truth that has eluded him. Here he needs the constant help of a Guru. Why? “Aachaaryavaan purusha veda” says our Veda. Only a person who has the Guru guiding him all along the way can know the Truth called Purusha. This Guru has to be alive and well and kicking! Otherwise one would end up like Ekalavya losing his knowledge!

Drifting in life doesn't fit in any of the three above.

I take your suggestions as earnest and sincere coming from the heart of a well-wisher. Life is hard with specks of joy! In one of his lectures that I attended Swamy Dhayananda Saraswathi explained life as: "....sukham, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, sukham, sukham, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, dhukkam, sukham,..."!

As a management consultant I tell my clients that as individuals we have no one else to share the blame and no one else to bear the burden. It is imperative that one knows where the 'I' ends and where the 'we' begins. It is equally important to know who 'he, she and they' are. A leader who doesn't know 'we' is doomed. A cadre who forgets the 'I' runs the risk of being fired.

There is an 'I' and a 'We' for all of us. Where it is 'We' all components have to have their play otherwise there will be a drag. To ensure that there is no drag is to (a) inform, (b) invite input and (c) ensure unimpeded play by the components.

In this forum I do a lot of 'inform'. There is resistance among members to get into the 'we' mode. More the 'inform' greater is the chance of their feeling comfortable being 'we'.

There is 'limitation' to the 'play' mode but to the extent possible we should activate it. But there are people who wish to restrict the 'inform' mode to what is possible 'play' mode within the forum. I disagree because the 'play' is always outside the forum. Forumites can do lots of wonders outside depending on what they get out of the 'inform' mode that is enormously available within the forum.

Now let me get back into some mundane talk that you were referring to. About the rituals that you performed at Kasi. As long as you think something is important not necessarily this particular one, it is best to ensure that it is successfully done. It is terrible to see corrupt practices and such practices need not be a way of life. It has become possible because of all round corruption. But then கர்மத்தை கர்மமே என்று பண்ணுவதில் என்ன லாபம்? such an attitude breads contempt in the faith rather than the practice. Wrong practices have to be fought and corrected, wrong faith have to be given up. If we do not inform our children why we do the karmas to the manes, they will be in darkness about it. We cannot blame them or be surprised if they express disgust. My manthra is: Inform, inform, inform, inform!

Technology is to be our aide. We should not become slaves to it. That threshold must be constantly kept in mind. After all no amount of technology would save a man when his time comes!

 

[kunjuppu]

thank ramaa. a wonderful reply.

i just heaved a big sigh of contentment. maybe because you talked me in terms of your profession. i am not spiritually all that well versed. when malgova mentions words like nithya and mithya, it goes over my head. but i sure can relate when you referred to work terms.

re kasi & கர்மத்தை கர்மமே என்று பண்ணுவதில் என்ன லாபம்? i will have to get over my own anger first. still working on it.

soon, some other topic will crop up in these threads and we will continue our dialogue. i am sure.

thank you again.

 

[Ramaa]

Received this note from a friend of mine. The videos are worth seeing.

Ramaa

Below is a video link of brilliant talk on Rama Sethu and its relevance to the what is happening to Hinduism, delivered by Dr. Subramanian Swamy during his recent visit to US when he released his book on Rama Sethu.
Every Indian must watch this. For those who may not know, it is Dr. Swamy's brilliant arguments in Supreme Court that blocked destruction of Rama Sethu.

Listen to how Dr. Swamy, who is an economist and not a lawyer, relate how he argued for 8 hours at a stretch with Supreme Court justices and successfully convinced them to stop destruction of Rama Sethu. Listen to why he took up this case because he clearly saw it as another example of undermining Hindu society. Hear about the gross corruption involved, total lack of values and simple decency in the leaders of current government.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tZOUw5-P0U&feature=PlayList&p=13C6CC433448906C&index=0&playnext=1
(Note: This is link to play list and all the parts will be automatically played)

 

[Ramaa]

www.newstodaynet.com

Sethu: Swamy ‘exposes’ Centre’s folly​

​

Sun, 01 Jun, 2008 , 03:33 PM . Janata Party leader Subramanian Swamy has written to Prime Minister exposing the ‘Himalayan fraud and monumental folly of Sethusamudram project’.

In the letter a copy of which was released to the press, Swamy had said,’I hope and pray that by now you have been briefed on the proceedings of the Supreme Court in various hearings held in the first week of May.


The Supreme Court has reiterated two directions which the Madras High Court had earlier given on my writ petition heard on 18 June and 19 June 2007 (subsequently your government hastily got the case transferred to the Supreme Court and therefore the May hearings of the Apex Court were in the nature of continuation of those hearings).

‘Essentially the said directions require your government to go back to the drawing board and re-work the Sethusamudram Channel Project (SSCP).’‘During the course of my arguments before the Supreme Court, I had firmly established with records and citations of past judgments of the Apex Court that the implementation of the SSCP would constitute criminal and civil illegalities.

Even you have committed a civil illegality when you inaugurated the project on 2 July, 2005 despite having failed to obtain the mandatory NOC from the Tamilnadu Pollution Control Board as required under the environmental law.

There was also an illegality committed in failing to obtain an NOC from the Coast Guard and the Maritime Board. Moreover your government committed a civil illegality by failing to honour the UN Law of the Sea (1968), and associated Bio-diversity Convention by failing to conduct a joint inspection with the government of Sri Lanka on environmental viability of the SSCP.

I am sure that if you send for Fali Nariman who is your main senior counsel in the case, he will apprise you of the details.’‘I, therefore, request you, out of personal regard for you and our long past happy friendship that you desist from any further pursuit of this illegal, ill-advised and economically disastrous SSCP and boldly take the steps to declare unilaterally that the Rama Setu is an ancient monument, a national pride, and a world heritage.

As far as SSCP is concerned, it may be re-cast by converting Tuticorin into an international container port and an international airport and connect it by a coastal railway- cum- express highway to Kolkata originating at the port.

This would be economically more profitable and consistent with the national security considerations.’Earlier this month, on 5 May, Swamy had sent a letter to the Prime Minister seeking his permission for the prosecution of T R Baalu, Union Shipping Minister, under the Prevention of Corruption Act. Swamy wrote as follows to the Prime Minister:

‘ This is first a reminder of my letter dated 1 February, 2008 seeking your sanction under the Prevention of Corruption Act to prosecute your Minister of Shipping.

Since that letter, charges of corruption against Baalu have proliferated galore in the country. Enclosed is a letter from Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) holding the chairman of the Chennai Port Trust, which Trust is administratively under the said Minister, of gross impropriety.

Yet your government have accepted the Financial Officer of the Chennai Port Trust C N Rao as the new chairman of Tuticorin Port Trust which Trust is the nodal body for the Sethusamdrum Ship Channel Project.

Kindly therefore withdraw the nomination forthwith and please expedite the grant of sanction.’No one can dispute the fact that right from the beginning, Sethusamudram Canal Project (SSCP) has been planned, organised and launched as a commercial asset for a few Cabinet Ministers in the UPA government and some of their counterparts in Tamilnadu.

According to expert, unbiased technical and scientific opinion in India and abroad, SSCP is a scientifically inconsistent, technologically non-feasible project at the present time.

The cogent arguments presented by some tsunami specialists and earth scientists of international stature have not been considered or answered in open-transparent forums by the leading proponents of the project.

Many of the vital questions raised by Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) in March 2005 were bypassed in a subterranean manner by imaginative, covert, sly and stealthy manoeuvres and operations.

What is amazing is that the top brass of the Indian Navy has remained silent or neutral on the SSCP and the brazen promoters of the SSCP — mean the firmly entrenched vested interests involved only in a private loot under the garb of public interest —— have become the naval strategists of Palk Bay!

Against this background it should be clear that there has been an organised conspiracy of firmly entrenched vested interests - the PMO, the Union Ministry of Shipping and Transport and the Tuticorin Port Trust ( TPT)-to ignore the best technical advice given by International experts about the wholly avoidable dangers and disasters of the SSCP in its present shape.

The words of the American judge Justice Cardozo are relevant in this context: ‘Means unlawful in their inception do not become lawful by relation when suspicion ripens into discovery’.

Swamy and other senior Counsels have convincingly argued and proved in the Supreme Court of India that there has been a blatant violation of the DUE PROCESS OF LAW right from the inception of the SSCP.

There is no table of weights and measures for ascertaining or determining what constitutes the due process. What is due process of law depends on circumstances.

It varies with the subject matter and necessities of the situation. Due process of law requires that the proceedings shall be fair, but fairness is a relative, not an absolute concept.

It is fairness with reference with particular conditions or particular results. Whichever way one looks at it, there has been a total violation of the DUE PROCESS by the government of India in according sanction for the SSCP.

That is why I have been asserting with unassailable facts and figures ever since May 2005 that the SSCP is a ‘Monument of fraud and folly.’

It is reliably understood that about four days ago, the Prime Minister directed Baalu to submit his letter of resignation as Union Shipping Minister, having regard to the serious corruption charges raised against him by Subramanian Swamy. According to sources, AICC leader Sonia Gandhi informally overruled Manmohan to ensure the temporary survival of Baalu.

 

[Ramaa]

http://setubandha. blogspot. com/2008/ 06/karuna- call-it-bad- tamil-dream- give-up.html


Karuna, call it a bad Tamil dream, give up Setu project.

Give up Setu project, because it will be little value added to the coastal peoples' livelihood. In fact, it will destroy their current livelihood opportunities, shrinking the fishing area by 26% and denying accress to the fish-nurseries. And, of course, it is nautical folly which will make the Setu corpn. lose over Rs. 150 crores every year, taxing the poor Indian tax-payer. There is a good alternative project: creation of Marine Economic Zones with potential to increase foreign exchange earnings by marine products export – from Rs. 2k crores per annum to Rs. 8k crores per annum since fish-landings have increased five-fold during the last 40 years in the Indian Ocean.

June 05, 2008
Ram Sethu for a gift

This is with reference to the report, ‘Call it Sethu Ram, but do it: Karuna’ (MM, June 4). It was not altruism or his love of Tamil Nadu that made TN Chief Minister Karunanidhi request the PM to complete the Sethusamudram project as a gift for his 85th birthday. It is common knowledge that T R Baalu, the DMK minister in the UPA cabinet, owns several companies that are directly involved in the implementation of the Sethu project. It is alleged that the DMK chieftain has interest in these companies and is bound to lose heavily in case the project is scrapped. Had he been really interested in the welfare of the people, he would have asked the PM to gift him the Cauvery.

Dr.Kalyanaraman

 

[Ramaa]

http://setubandha.blogspot.com/2008/06/setu-project-white-elephant-ecological.html
Setu project: a white elephant, an ecological-social disaster, being falsely foisted as a dream project.

Thanks to Capt. Balakrishna and to Sudarshan Rodriguez for their incisive analyses.
Executive Summary: Setu project is a white elephant, an ecological disaster, and is being foisted as a dream project without involving detailed studies using the expertise of Geological Survey of India (GSI) and National Institute of Oceanography (Goa), without consulting the local pollution control, maritime boards, without consulting the neighbouring country under international treaty obligations, ignoring international treaty obligations related to UN Law of the Sea, UNESCO World Heritage and Underwater Cultural Heritage Conventions.. Above all, there is a cognizable criminal offence involved by violating Section 295 of the Indian Penal Code which prohibits the hurting of sentiments of a community.
It is shocking that a fundamental question remains unanswered: for whose benefit is this project? How will it benefit the coastal people? Has an alternative of Marine Economic Zones along the long 8000 km. of the nation been evaluated which has the potential to increase marine product export foreign exchange earnings from the present Rs. 8000 crores per annum to Rs. 40000 crores per annum?
Scrap the project. Don't ever dream such project disasters.
The project zone is Rama's hotspot with mannar volcanic rocks and hotsprings all along the coastline and is close to the most fragile eco-system – the Sunda plate which is subject to almost daily earthquakes and which scientists (Nature magazine 6 Sept. 2007) have noted as a potential disaster zone which will adversely impact 6 crore coastal people from Kolkata to Kerala by a more devastating tsunami than the one which occurred on Dec. 26, 2004 killing 2,60,000 people. How could any rational government have conceived a project and inaugurated it on 2 July 2005 (that is within 6 months of the tsunami) without a detailed evaluation of the impact of the Dec. 2004 tsunami on the bathymetry of the ocean and without providing for tsunami protection measures to save the nation's coastal property and peoples' lives? How could anyone approve of a project which 34 Sri Lankan experts claim will impact adversely the drinking water supply to Rameshwaram and Jaffna if the fresh-water bearing limestone caves in Rama Setu are blasted off? Do we have a socially responsible governance or not?
The detailed project report prepared by the consultants for Setusamudram Corporation is an UNRELIABLE, document, based on computational errors, erroneous/biased assumptions and is intended only as a make-believe exercise, a pathetic attempt in economic casuistry. The project economics presented in the DPR is simply bogus. Capt. Balakrishnan conclusively proved that the project is nautical folly.
In addition to social costs which are excluded from the computations of economic viability, the following costs are also either excluded or grossly understated: 1. additional security costs which will devolve on the Indian Navy to acquire, for example, special anit-mine-warfare vessels which can traverse through a shallow channel in narrow straits (which may be of the order of Rs. 3000 crores); 2. costs to the neighbouring country, Sri Lanka, very close (3 kms. proximity) to the channel; 3. maintenance dredging costs in one of the five sedimentation sinks of the world constituting the Gulf of Mannar-Palk Straits; 4. costs of facilities which are an imperative, for salvage operations in case a ship gets grounded in the shallow sands; 5. failure to estimate the number of ships which will be less than 30,000 dwt (dead-weight-tonnes) and which will be phased out during the next 10 years since the trend is to build large-tonnage ships going upto 1 million dwt.; 6. losses which will be suffered by coastal people due to denial of access to about 26% of the ocean zone – the breeding zone for marine products and fish nurseries -- in Gulf of Mannar-Palk Straits by creating a veritable international boundary channel 3 kms. west of the Indi-Sri Lanka medial line (considering that the distance between Dhanushkodi and the Medial Line is only 15 kms.); 7. failure to include provisions/facilities for tsunami-cyclone protection to safeguard the integrity of the nation's coastline.
SSCP will be a perpetual sick unit. The claim that Setusamudram Corp. Ltd. (SCL) will be financially self-sustaining is thus questionable. No sensible banker will lend money to such an entity. It will be a tax-payer's burden for the foreseeable future.
First year Loss: Rs. 54 crores
(3055 passages/year X Rs.1.78 lakhs, i.e. Tariff of Rs. 3.89 lakhs minus Rs. 2.11 lakhs fuel and cost savings per passage of a ship);
9th year Loss: Rs. 143 crores
(3055 passages/year X Rs. 4.68 lakhs, i.e. Tariff of Rs. 6.79 lakhs minus Rs. 2.11 lakhs fuel and cost savings per passage of a ship).
There are hidden costs which have not been included; if included, the sickness of SCL will become chronic: a) Capital and maintenance costs for Naval security of the channel; b) Maintenance dredging costs may be as high as Rs. 1000 crores per annum; c) Provisions of tsunami protection walls as in Japan to save lives and property along the coastline; d) social costs such as loss of livelihood for coastal people dependent upon fisheries and marketing of marine products.
Dr. S. Kalyanaraman

 

[Saab]

What is taking place in the name of digging a canal under water for the fraudulent Sethu Samudhram shipping canal project is mind boggling. Please read:
Thorium: strategic nuclear fuel of India

http://kalyan97.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/thorium-strategic-nuclear-fuel-of-india/