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'Pseudo' Secularism

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KRS

Well-known member
Friends,

Secularism is not about appeasement. Nor is it about the promotion of moniority interests at the expense of the majority interests.

Secularism is all about decency. Decency granted by a majority to safeguard the minority interests. It is based on the human values, rather than religious or clan values. Minorities live in the civilized countries where the majority have decreed that the values and the aspirations of the minority must be protected, in the interest of humanity.

This fundamental value to living in the modern world is not recognized by folks who have other agendas. Let me ask a question in open: If India tomorrow becomes a 'Hindu' nation, will She be 'secular'?

But, there is a dangerous culture that is growing. That is cynical and uses vote banks in India to redefine 'secularism'. This is a sure recipe to force common folks to walk right in to the hands of extremists. Please read the following. I very much in agreement with the author.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20070712&fname=raman&sid=1&pn=1

Pranams,
KRS
 

silverfox

Active member
Dear KRS:
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp...man&sid=1&pn=1

An eye-opener and an outstanding article on the sad state of affairs with the current government in India - yes! the so-called 'secularists', Mr. Karunanidhi included. Thank you!
All Indians MUST read this article and see for themselves how the current Congress-Communist led government has sold out their soul, honesty, integrity and fairplay. I hope all Indians will wake up and see what is going on and throw out these hypocrits in the next election.
 
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K

KRS

Well-known member
Thank you Sri Silverfox Ji. I think the day is not far off when our brethren see through the sham of the political parties and demand accountability.

It is shocking to me to see that the 7/11 was not at all commemorated at the national level. What a missed chance to invite ALL comunities to come together and remember this infamous day!

This is not the Secularism that I know and admire. This is something else.

What a pity!

Pranams,
KRS
 

hariharan1972

Active member
Nice read | Different take

Dear KRS:
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp...man&sid=1&pn=1

An eye-opener and an outstanding article on the sad state of affairs with the current government in India - yes! the so-called 'secularists', Mr. Karunanidhi included. Thank you!

SF,

Thanks for the link. Good article.

I have a different take though.

Firstly, i think the Muslim community is going thru a churn. The battle of voices of the Moderate and the Radical hasn't been won as yet. I am of the firm belief that the radical elements as a percentage are not far greater than any other community.

The conduct of the Govt towards the Muslims is nothing to be proud of. Sachar committee has come and gone, Reservations have a constitutional roadblock and it is a fact that the general economic condition of the Muslims is far below the national average.

The emergence of Kafeel & Co, has disproved the myth that the lack of opportunities is the "only" reason why the radical elements are able to spread their tentacles. Now it is apparent that the disenchantment of the Muslims vis-a-vis the Govt has reasons beyond lack of access to resources & economic upliftment.

I came across an article not so long ago as to how the Muslims are systematically kept out of key positions in the NSG (National Security Guards) which provides security to the leaders. I dont think even the Army trusts them as much. This is clearly a stigma which no community worth its salt would like to live with.

Only yesterday a muslim colleague of mine was explaining with pain as to how one of his friends, when he was appointed with RAW, was stalked for 2 months. My friend believes this was done just because his friend was a Muslim too. I dont think i will disagree with him.

India has to learn to differentiate between wheat and the chaff. It is often the moderate elements which face the brunt of political / social ostracisation and apathy that they no longer feel compelled to be proactive in identifying the weeds.

Now back to this article, if i can be a bit cold, my reaction would be that there will not be a single day in India when the PM doesnt have to express his remorse.

Added as an afterthought : I feel the best homage to the memory of the deceased would be to apprehend the culprits and bring them to book.

PM has compulsions to be politically correct, which ofcourse, i dont support. PM would be emboldened if the Muslim Intelligentsia and the political leadership can see this as a process of de-weeding the society and not thru the prism of community.

At this poignant moment, we would be much better off without a community backlash.
 
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Amoorkan

Member
Trust but verify!

Hari OM!

Dear Sri Hari,

I can appreciate your even handedness. However life is not easy and we who do not take care might come to regret it. Unmindful of the consequences you seem to show great philonthrophy to those who might harm us as a community. Paalai ootri paambaiye valarthaale nammaiye kadikkaththaane seidhidum? The fall of Vijayanagara Saamraajyam is attributed to the treachery and betrayal of Devaraya's Muslim regiment which he believed would protect him. Do you realize those people have brought changes historically only through violence and bloodshed? Even though we have achieved independence from foreigners in many ways we would be finding it an illusion due to our carelessness. The country is surrounded by those who are out to destroy us. There are so many evidence of their fifth columns destroying the fabric of our society including the bomb blasts in Bombay about which we are lamenting. When Indira Gandhi was assasinated I happened to be in the States and a white friend of mine asked me as to how careful are our leaders who knowing that the threat to the P.M. would be from the Sikhs after she ordered the army to storm the Golden Temple to have Sikhs as her body guards? I replied, "Tell me about it, and Indira had been having a foreign woman in her household and God knows what disaster that would bring to our country?" I did not realize that I was uttering prophetic words then. Now coming to know that Quattarochi and the LTTE schemed the blowing up of Rajiv in a Paris hotel and the entire thing was videotaped by the French Secret Service. This knowledge is in the public domain though the videotape itself is never released let alone admitted to exist, I cannot but wonder if Maino had a hand in her husband's assassination given her Italian dispensation. We also know that Rajiv's brother Sanjay died mysteriously in a trainer aircraft and his widow Maneka Gandhi has openly alleged that Sonia forced her out of her husbands's home. These are pointers to a grave threat to our society.

I am a big fan of Ronald Reagan who famously said "Trust but verify!"
 

hariharan1972

Active member
Time to unlock our minds

'OM' endra pranava mandirathai en peyarudan inaithu enakku punniyam thedi thandha Sri Amoorkan Avargale, (intro ve chumma adhirudhu illa ! )

I never heeded to my father, whenever he asked me to study harder. So if i sounded unpatriotic, all-forgiving, kindly blame it on my lack of mastery over Her Majesty's Language.

Let me try to get some of your easier questions out of the way.

Paalai ootri paambaiye valarthaale nammaiye kadikkaththaane seidhidum?

Kandippa sir. Because you are leaving the snake hungry. Paambu paal ellam kudikkadhunu ungalukku theriyadha ! we have been fooled for too long by Kalaignar TV Pugazh Raama Narayanan. (He is the content lead and "apparently" will only show "paguththarivu" stuff. For a man who showed snakes doing a 40 word per minute on a Remington, this is heights or lows ?)

After that silly attempt at humour, let me get serious.

Sir, do you place so much credence on history ? I believe History has a particular context and is a good rear-view mirror. But we cannot get ahead only by looking at rear-view mirror.

Can we accept that all brahmins are venal just because Ravana was a brahmin ? And dont we share the angst and pain when MK and his cohorts discovered that Hindu actually means a "Thief". Can we accept this because this is historical ?

Sir, first of all i am not displaying any philanthrophy. I am only trying to appeal to the sensibilities of our esteemed members of the forum that we neednt throw the baby with the bathwater. I do acknowledge the presence of radical elements among the Muslims and the danger they pose to the entire humanity but i am only trying to make a case out that this is not a sufficient reason to view every Muslim with suspicion.

About your view that India is surrounded by enemy nations, true, but lack of external security need not make us paint all Indian Muslims as unpatriotic.

My pointers in my previous post was to highlight the extent of mistrust of Muslims and they constitute 17% of our population. I am only trying to argue that we cannot shy away from dealing with them. They are an inalienable part of our country and are much more endogamous with us rather than their Pakistani or Bangladeshi counterparts.

You seem to flip to the internal political squabbling in the Nehru family and frankly i cant relate it to the topic under discussion. Unless i am missing something, in which case, please enlighten me.

In summary, i think of Brahmins everytime someone castigates the entire muslim community. (Please dont even think i am meaning you here)

The reason i say is that for whatever brahmins and muslims did earlier, the KKKs and lot of hindus carry the hatred even today and almost are threatening to carry it to their graves.

As much as we, the brahmins, long to be understood properly, i think the entire hindu community should unlock their thinking about Muslims and remove unnecessary suspicion.


SF / KRS : Again to reiterate my larger point in my previous post, the paying of homage by the PM IMHO is largely symbolic and can be done by any citizen of the country. But none of us can go behind the perpetretors of the crime and apprehend them. In this context, i wanted to say that bringing the culprits to book is the real and much more satisfying homage the PM can pay to the victims. It didnt come out as much as i wanted it to.

And Amookan Sir, i am a big fan of Saint Thiruvalluvar who said :

"Otharivaan uyir vaazhvan mattraiyaan sethaarul veikkapp padum"

Oppuravu (samudaaaya nalam naadudhal) arindhu pirarukku udhaviyaaga than vaazhvai amaithukkolbavane vaazhbavanaga karudhappaduvan..mattravargal irandhavargal polaavar
 
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KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri Hari,

I agree that paying homage to the 7/11 victims is symbolic. I also agree that catching the murderers should also be the highest priority.

But symbolism shown by the high offices of any country gives a chance to heal the wounds. For example, this would have given a chance for different communities to have come together and unite against terrorism. But, in the interests of the vote bank politics, such a nation uniting exercise perhaps is not possible; the votes may split!

In my opinion we should not confuse between our official policies towards minorities and the society's acceptance of certain things. Like casteism; like child marriage etc., long existing antipathies and suspicions can only be removed one person at a time, through knowledge. A law can not over night demolish these practices. We need enlightened leaders to get us to gether, but in my opinion, such leaders are in very short supply and then they do not rise to the top levels of power in India.

Every community in India harbours the notion of having been hurt. Only the perception of the degree of hurt is different. Regarding your friends comments about RAW, etc., I would expect a thorough background check of all the applicants. But the government should not discriminate and if they do, then it is wrong and the authorities who do that must have the book thrown at them.

Hope, this makes sense.

Pranams,
KRS
 

silverfox

Active member
Remembering the blast victims

Dear Hari:
Good exchange of views. I still say that the PM should have been there at the site of the blast to show solidarity with the victims' families and friends. It is symbolic, yes, as the article says, but it was to make a point. The idea was to show to the nation that the government was against any terrorism and to send a strong message. Indian Muslims wouldn't have misunderstood the PM just because he went to Bombay for the anniversary; I am sure there were Muslims, too, who died in the blast. As the article pointed out, other countries - USA, Britain, Australia - all recognized this and showed their resolve against terrorism.
 
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Amoorkan

Member
Trust but verify!

Dear Sri Hari,

I used OM because it is concord and IT is opposed to discard. OM is affirmation never negation. OM is always followed by Santhi and is never used to promote war. Our philosophy is to shun the multitude that causes conflict and our aim is to merge into ONE that has no sajaatheeya, vijaatheeya, swagatha bhedham. Yet our Puraanaas and Ithihaasaas recount innumerable tales of conflict between Dhaarmic and adharmic forces and Bhagavan Krishna through the Geetha particularly exhorted on taking up arms against adharmic forces to defeat them.

I agree that one should unlock the mind. I would add the word "always" for there is no such thing as time for unlocking the mind. But you know we have a door in our home and we should keep it locked for our own safety. If you don't address this point people would wonder on whose side are you. You would not want to end up to the fate of a Hindu in Pakistan or Bangladesh in India. Living in the west I have sometimes wondered if Hindus have more freedom in the west than in India but such relative realities were overcome by the acute awareness that such freedom for us in the west is merely a fleeting mercy and not an absolute freedom.

Hindus have a right to remain and multiply and propagate in India. If this view is not acceptable to anyone then I would stop arguing with that person. Sometimes the secularist ideas militate against our objective and there are people who denigrate being Hindus to a fundamentalism and equate it with Muslim or Christian fundamentalism. Hindus never force another to change his religion and therefore there is no such thing as Hindu fundamentalism for fundamentalism is intolerant to other religion. One cannot equate opposing in self-defense and self-preservation to intolerant offense of destruction practiced by the Muslim and Christian proselytizers.

In a word, I respect the Muslim and the Christian but I am very much aware that I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian but certainly a Hindu and am proud of being so and do everything in my power to preserve it for the posterity.

Jai Hind!
 

hariharan1972

Active member
My apologies | Rounding off

Sri Amoorkan,

I most definitely didnt take any objection to use of OM.

I only wanted to start my response with a light-hearted banter. Hope i didnt offend any of your sensibilities and if unwittingly i did, seek your forgiveness.

I hope the few "you's" you have used are used figuratively and not seeking an explanation from me.

I will round off by saying :

-- I dont recommend any laxity in our security preparedness
-- The door, as you rightly say, while warding off the threats, my humble view is that , the knob should be kept well oiled, to open for a friend.
-- I see grave danger to hinduism from the fascist dravidians more than the other religious groups.

I definitely dont recommend romancing with secularism at the cost of risking our security.

Time, perhaps for the discussion to take a different turn.
 

silverfox

Active member
are you sure you want to oil the knob?

Dear Hari:

You don't want to oil the knob; nobody would be able to open the door -- it will keep slipping and you cannot get a good grip to turn!! (a little banter!)

I have noticed several members on this Forum have referred to "dravidians"! But aren't we part of this ethnic group?


<<<<<the knob should be kept well oiled, to open for a friend.
-- I see grave danger to hinduism from the fascist dravidians more than the other religious groups.>>>>>>
 
You are 100% right Sri. Amoorkan Sir!!

Dear Sri. Moorkan Sir,

[In a word, I respect the Muslim and the Christian but I am very much aware that I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian but certainly a Hindu and am proud of being so and do everything in my power to preserve it for the posterity].

You are 100% right Sir, a proud Hindu has to do everything in his power to preserve it for the prosperity. Even the very above word of respect to Muslim and Christian is understood as our weakness sir. One of my friend has put this as sath ghuna vikruthi. Muslim and Christians are very clear about Hindus. For them each and every hindu is a kafir or paapi and an object to be converted at any cause. Only then they and their ancestors who rest in peace can attain swarg. This is their belief and they derive their fire power only based on this theory.

Hindus awake and Pathinarum petru…….. illai …illai…atharku melum petru peru vazvu vazha!!!!

Gurumurthyji
 

silverfox

Active member
Dear Gurumurthyji:

It is gratifying to note that some of us are proud of being Hindus and have no qualms in saying so without being apologists.
When I was in Chennai for 7 months, I noticed that even though Mr. Karunanidhi put down Hindus and their customs/cultures every day, no Hindu spoke up, wrote strong letters to the editor or took out procession against his pronouncements. At the same time, I read that the temples are more crowded now than they ever were; people are more religious now ...... I simply don't understand the psyche of people there.
 
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K

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Friends,

Let me pose a question. Yes, we are all Hindus. Yes, we agree that the evangelists and the Catholics of Christianity are aggressively targeting conversions in India. They believe that the 'Hindu' heathens are forever doomed.

Ditto with the philosophy representing a large populace of Islam

These two are exclusionary philosophies.

So, my question is this. Should India declare Herself a Hindu nation? Instead of the current 'Secular' format? What will be the advantages and disadvantages? I am asking this question in the context that India is a majority Hindu country.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Looks more specific to tamil brahmins sir?

Dear Mr.Silverfox Sir,

You are right sir! To me this look like more specific to tamil brahmins. When Kanchi sankaracharyars were arrested, some hindu group organized a protest March in Karol Bagh, New Delhi. There are some 200 tambrahmin families living there including our family. To me Kanchi is our Guru both from my father side and mother side and so also to my wife. So we went and participated in that big rally of over 1000 northern brothers and got arrested in police custody for a day. To our big surprise, there were no other tamils except us and one other gentleman from Pollachi. !!

Gurumurthyji
 

Amoorkan

Member
OM!

Dear Gurumurthyji,

When I read your last post that said there were only two families (perhaps they were the Tamil Brahmins) joined the protest against the arrest of Kanchi Acharya I felt extremely distrurbed at the stupid ignorance of Tamilians who have been so mesmerised by the Dravidian parties. At the same time the thought that a thousand Hindus from the North courted arrest moved me. The North Indians were brutal victims of the merciless killings, rape and plunder by the Muslim invaders and today's Muslims have not changed an iota in their attitude to us Hindus the 'kafirs'. Our people have not understood the enormity of the problem that the future Hindus would face in their own land and would not know if the secularists continue to conceal from the Hindus the dangers they face from their alien religionists. Sri KRS jumps the gun and asks if we should declare India as a Hindu state. Dear sir, we are far away from such a situation considering only two families from Tamilnadu joined the protest in Delhi against the revered Acharya's arrest. And there are so many who would say 'let the law take its course', or 'he deserves it because he went into politics', and some of them would even speculate that he could have indeed committed the grave crime.

I said "Paalai ootri paambaiye valarthaale nammaiye kadikkaththaane seidhidum?". In support of it I give below a blog of the Hindu American Foundation that gives their submission at Congressional Human Rights Caucus Briefing. People who are loath to referring to history should understand that Bangladesh was recently created largely with the help of India (paalai ootri paambai naam valartha kadhai) and what they are doing to us Hindus now (kadikkaththaane seidhidum?).

Please do read the blog in its entirety. It would raise your consciousness to the grave danger we face and we would also become aware of those secularists who would not want us to see these facts and take appropriate action. For them Hindus are also fundamentalists! Of course they would start recouting how many Muslims and Christians we killed and how horrible Narendra Modi is and so on. But we as Hindus should become aware of the danger of extinction that we would face when those aliens succeed thanks to the secularists.

http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/media_press_release_hhr_congress_hearing.htm

I just want to give below one paragraph from this report for you.

"Rosaline Costa, a native of Bangladesh, highlighted the demographic trends in Bangladesh which has seen a 219 percent growth in the Muslim population and the "loss" of 20 million members of the minority religions, the majority of them being Hindus. According to Costa, the mass rape and gang rape of women, in front of their male relatives, was a grave human rights abuse that has devastated the Hindu population in particular and minorities in general. Describing increasing attacks also faced by the Christian minority, Costa spoke of gangs of Muslim men forcing Christians either to pay protection money or demand that they give away their daughters. She said she was witness to such events on Bhola island. Costa added that tribal people who mostly follow animistic, Hindu, Buddhist, or Christian traditions were also brutally victimized, subject to gang rapes, evicted from their lands, forcibly converted to Islam, and dropped out of voter lists."

Regards,
Amoorkan (by this very name not a fundamentalist!)
 
very sorry I misspelled your name

Dear Sri.Amoorkan Sir,

I offer my apologies to you Sir, I mis-spelled your name. This is a mistake. Please bear with me Sir I noticed this when I go through this post to-day.

gurumurthyji
 

Amoorkan

Member
Dear Gurumurthyji, no problem. Dear Sri Hariji, I know you are very much with me and so none of my posting is directed at you or any other individual. We as Hindus and Tamil Brahmins who are in dire straights do not have the luxury to pick on each other.

Regards to all.
 
India ..a Hindu Country!!Will it really bring change?

Dear Sri.KRS Sir,

My understanding of a Nation is not it is merely a piece of land and people living in that piece of land. The people must also have emotional attachment over it as my land. Look at what happened? They cut that in the name of independence and declared that Secular. Even though India is a majority Hindu living country the secularists still extend more privileges to non hindus than you Sir.

Endaiyum thayum mahzindu kulaavi irundhatum innnadhey!! Avar mundaiyar aayiram aandhugal koodi vaazndhadhum innadhey!!

Will a declaration of India as a Hindu nation really bring change/ or advantageous to us?

gurumurthyji
 

hariharan1972

Active member
Unfair assessment of Muslims

Sri Amoorkan,

I am very conscious of the growing count of my posts and I really didn’t want to respond out of fear that I am veering discussion back to the same start point.

I feel very very sad that you think that Muslims haven’t changed their attitude towards Hindus. IMHO, nothing can be farther from the truth.

Permit me to articulate.

At the cost of being a damning statement, I really think India does not have a History !.
I think the way I think because we are still are “enquiring” into whether Rama built a bridge, atheists question the “sexual” preferences of Rama, we still believe there is a temple beneath the Taj, we still question the real motives behind the Mutiny of 1857, we still think that Rama was born precisely on a certain sq inch of land at Ayodhya. Phew !

We find it perfectly comfortable to quote Mughal invasion to slam the Muslims, KKKs castigate as outsiders by calling us Aryans.

I mean...just how “current” “history” can be anywhere but in India. Can we ever give a honourable burial to History and leave it for the kids to study. Before you question me, I am not saying “let us forget history” but only appealing that “history has a certain context and expiry date” and let us not draw inferences for our present from the past.

Please.

I have respectfully disagree entirely on your assertion about the Muslims. Kindly answer me this : There was an era when Mughals ruled major part of India. Yet we are a Hindu-majority nation. I admit that there would have been forced conversions etc. but what is of relevance today is that we are a Hindu-majority nation and it is our responsibility to peacefully co-exist with other communities including Muslims.

Sir, if you think that “ALL” Muslims treat Hindus as Kafirs, kindly confirm whether this is true for Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, for starters.

It pains me immensely to call Dr Kalam, just a Muslim, but calling him that for the sake of this discussion – please let me know how is it then acceptable for us to weaponise our state with the missiles developed by a Muslim ?

Would you think twice before listening to Maestro Bismillah Khan because he is a Muslim. This genius, I read somewhere, was offered millions to emigrate out of India. To the poser, he said, if it has to happen, then the host nation should also accommodate “his friends”. The person who made the offer said he would gladly accommodate and only wanted to know who the “Maestro’s friend were”. To which the Maestro had apparently told - Kashi Vishwanath Temple and the Ganges !

You will struggle to find better works on Ramayana than the one by Justice M M Ismail.

Having said these, I wouldn’t deny the terror unleashed by some radical elements among the Muslims.

But if you would note, the growth of these radical elements was fuelled on the fateful day in Dec’92 when the Babri Mosque was demolished.

The Mumbai serial blasts followed and it then gradually spiralled into full fledged terror networks.

The most recent start point I am afraid, was something, us, the Hindus could have prevented. But political compulsions, narrow mindedness and penchant for digging into history has reduced us to a state where we are living in a era of terror.

Sir, in this very forum, we have had exchanges with some non-brahmin friends who think the current generation of Brahmins are all casteist and longing for the return of the Manu system.

We were united in our denial and took pains to stress as to how we don’t have cobwebs in our thinking which non-brahmins presumed we had.

If this be the case, how do you think it is justified to castigate the Muslims enmasse ? I am sorry sir, I don’t subscribe to it.

Your case in point – Bangladesh – is a non-argument. Call Bangladesh a rogue state, I will gladly accept. But kindly don’t give a religious colour to what is largely political bungling of our Congress friends.

What does the Muslim in India do if there is an ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Bangladesh. How do you think it is justified to view the Muslims of India with suspicion ?

I haven’t had the opportunity to read the Sachar committee report in full, but whatever tidbits I have read, do you know that of the total Muslim enrollment into schools only 4% are enrolled in Madarassas ?

For too long, the Indian political establishment ostracized them by NOT dealing with them. Now that we find that some people form economically/educationally challenged sections of Muslims taking to violence, we again point out to the low reach of education. For what is largely political apathy, the cross-bearers again are the Muslims.

I again say Sir, the average Indian Muslim is much much more trustworthy, reliable and an ally than the Dravidians of the world.

Before you castigate the Muslims, kindly reflect on whether as a Nation we have dealt with Muslims fairly ?

Ramki / LQ – Where are you guys ? Jump in please.

Chintana, if you find the time, please
 

silverfox

Active member
Indian Muslims

Hari:
You didn't ask me to jump in; I am hurt!! But I will, anyway!

Very valid points. I agree. Let me add my own story to this. I wouldn't been where I am today but for the great help of a Bihari Muslim, who not only got me admission in a US University, he got me full tuition waiver and Graduate Assistantship. In addition, he has helped another brahmin and a Kshatriya Hindu!
Therefore, I tend to agree with you, Hari, that most Indian Muslims do not belong to that hate group or would side with Pakistan.
In my previous postings, I was merely stressing that Hindus don't have the same fervor about their religion as others.
Finally, I still think India needs to have a one single uniform Civil code. So.... there! here are my two cents.
Someone said 'penny for your thoughts'; I don't know what happened to the other penny!!! (Ignore me! I am being silly!)
 
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KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri Hari,

Like Sri SF Ji, I am also hurt!

You have responded in a way that shows the reason for my starting the thread and my recent question.

We need to treat everyone as an Indian first. Blaming an entire community for the actions of a few with a broad brush, in my opinion, is wrong. In my opinion, only proper secularism will accomplish proper welding of a modern society in to a cohesive Nation. And part of that is to have one civil code.

I can add other names to your list of accomplished Indian muslims.

Thank you for the passionate argument.

Pranams,
KRS
 

Chintana

Active member
Thank you for asking me, Hari.

I think you've done a great job of presenting your case - so well done that you don't need the support of anyone else.

In any case, my piece.

I think there are valid points on both sides of the argument. My biggest take-away form your point, Hari, is that Muslims as a community cannot be blamed for the ills of a few members. There are fine examples amongst Muslims who have not only done a great job of integrating themselves with the 'Indianness' of the country but have also worked for its upliftment. APJ is definitely a case in point. Azim Premji also comes to mind.

But Amoorkan and Gurumurthiji's points are reflecting the fact that the politicians are succeeding in dividing us up along religious and caste lines. If the different religious groups remain suspicious of one another who gets the benefits? The politicians, of course! Their attitude (to me at least) of protecting minority interests at the expense of the majority seems very clever and orchestrated. Karunanidhi, for example, sometime the past few years, denounced the Ganesh Chaturthi festival but went and participated in Id celebrations!

Dear Amoorkan and Gurumurthiji - your fears do have a basis but please recognize that indulging in them will not provide the security we seek. I find Hari's point most useful in emphasizing this idea.

We as citizens must be smart and not let politicians have their way! They will ruin our good thoughts and intentions.

Regards,
Chintana
 
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rxrajamo

Active member
Hari

An excellent post. But I tend to differ a little. I think there exist some valid reasons for ordinary Hindus and friends like Amoorkan to doubt the Muslim community. I DO NOT subscribe to that view and think castigating any entire community is wrong. That being said, I have my own concerns. I am just trying to see these things from a law abiding, peace loving ordinary Hindu citizen's view.

It is of course true that we should not keep harping on history. But we should also remember that "Those who forget History are condemned to repeat it". History does not have an expiry date. We all have to learn from History and avoid past mistakes.

Reg Rama's Birthplace or Krishna's birthplace, why do you feel that it is wrong to believe that Rama was born at some certain square land at Ayodhya ? What is wrong with that ? After all, religion itself is a matter of belief. The moment you start questioning beliefs, then no religion can exist.

BTW, I am disappointed at your post justifying the Islamic terrorism on Ramjanmabhoomi. Even for argument sake, let us say, Muslims were deeply anguished at the demolition, dont you think they have other peaceful means of protests ? For that matter countless temples were demolished in Kashmir. So do you think we all Hindus are justified in indulging in terrorism ?
Please .. please.. do not justify terrorism. Killing innocent civilians is not justifiable whatever the provocation might be.

I totally agree that all Muslims in India are not terrorists. But unfortunately a majority of the terrorists in India are from that community (Please note: I am just talking about Indian Terrorists). So what does that community do about it ? A community which can organize protests when the Supreme Court ordered that a husband who is divorcing his wife has to pay maintenance to his wife (Shah Bano) or when a Danish newspaper published some objectionable cartoons on prophet Mohammed (PBUH), remains silent. Dont you think as good citizens they should have organized some sort of protests ? Forget all that. A community that issues Fatwas on a book written by Rushdie does not think it should issue a fatwa against terrorists killing innocent people.

Talking of Bangladesh, I did not understand your point on Congress bunglings. All Amoorkan was pointing to was the atrocities heaped on minorities in Bangladesh. Reg giving a religious color, probably you forgot about Indian Muslims organizing protests against Taslima Nasreen being given India Visa simply because of the book "Lajja" she wrote detailing a Hindu's plight in Bangladesh. So you question what can Indian Muslims do if Hindus are ethnically cleansed in Bangladesh. For starters, they can at least organize the same kind of protests that they did against Indian government granting Visa to Tasleema Nasreen.

Reg your point on Indian political class ostracizing Muslim community, please.... We have had at least 2 Muslim presidents, 1 Muslim vice president, countless Muslim ministers, MPs, MLAs. Besides, we have all political parties falling head over heels in placating them with sops. The PM of the country who did not spend any sleepless nights over victims of terrorism in Mumbai or Delhi, spending sleepless nights thinking about the families of those arrested on charges of terrorism. Tell me is this what you refer to as ostracization.

It is true that we have admirable Muslim intellectuals like Dr.Kalam or Azim Premji. I am truly proud of them and their contributions. Believe me, Dr.Kalam was one of the finest presidents we have had. But we also have Tiger Memon, Dawood Ibrahim etc. You should also remember that it is the Hindu majority through its exemplary tolerance that has allowed these people to attain their full potential. How many Muslim nations are there, where minorities have risen to such high levels ?

The fact is a majority of the Muslims in India do not come out openly against terrorism. That is the most worrying part. It makes me think though they might not support it, they are not against it. It is this strange silence of the Muslim community to confront the reality, that gives ordinary Hindus in India to send SMS such as the one after the Mumbai blast "I dont know if all Muslims are terrorists. But all terrorists are Muslims."

So while it is true that castigating an entire community is wrong, the community should also come forward to clarify some issues and unequivocally condemn terrorism. Unless it happens, not only Hindus, many other Western communities will also look at them with suspicion.

Reg your question, whether as a nation we have dealt with Muslims fairly, I am strong believer of Kennedy's statement "Ask not what the country has done for you. Ask what you have done for the country". The concept of country owing anything to any particular community itself is wrong. Also when you ask as a nation what have we done for Muslims, it gives the impression of them being separate from the nation.

But I sincerely believe all Indian Muslims are equal citizens of India and the majority community in India, unlike Muslim majorities in most of the Muslim countries, have given them more rights and opportunities to develop and prosper.

Ramki
 
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