Popular iyers in the four sub sects of the community

[sarang]

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The constitution prohibits discrimination of other things in addition to caste. varna is excluded. Do you want to eradicate other issues as well - religion, race, sex, place of birth.

It is worth remembering that varna, traditional classification of hindus for ages has not been mentioned. Food for thought for you!

Untouchability will not go away by blaming brahmins. In the recent clash between caste hindus (?) and dalits in Caddalore recently, what was the issue? Brahmins were no longer in the picture.

All these years, when a funeral procession crosses the village temple, the oppari and beating of drums was stopped as a show of respect and followed by dalits in the village. This year, some youth in the profession broke this unwritten but in vogue agreement and made noise. This was objected, a scuffle ensued and the body was left on the ground for 45 minutes. The procession continued with police protection. Many dalits in the procession were wearing poonal. You can draw your conclusion!

That said, why does the Constitution article 15 prohibits discrimination on the ground of caste? Does it envisage that caste and caste-based phenomena will (may/should?) thrive alright but the GOI as a party will not discriminate on the basis of caste? If so why untouchability was sought to be abolished, in addition to Article 17?

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear T K S Sir,

You are absolutely right! The T.N and Kerala 'vadamA's are proud no doubt! But, my student mAmi told me, after fixing her

daughter's wedding, 'Raji! We tried our best to find a match in our own subsect. But could get ONLY a vadamA groom!' and

her subsect is ashtasahasram. So, each one thinks great of their subsect. :grouphug: . . :thumb:

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

You will be surprised to know that 'AthrEya' gOthram exists in all the four subsects of Iyers! :dizzy:

 

[sangom]

The Independence came a bit early, I would say. If it had happened after twenty years, may be I would at least have written some letters to the editors of some newspapers. But, here again, I am not sure whether I would have had the maturity which I have now and whether I would have viewed at that stage of my life, that caste as something to be eradicated.

That said, why does the Constitution article 15 prohibits discrimination on the ground of caste? Does it envisage that caste and caste-based phenomena will (may/should?) thrive alright but the GOI as a party will not discriminate on the basis of caste? If so why untouchability was sought to be abolished, in addition to Article 17?

The constitution prohibits discrimination of other things in addition to caste. varna is excluded. Do you want to eradicate other issues as well - religion, race, sex, place of birth.

It is worth remembering that varna, traditional classification of hindus for ages has not been mentioned. Food for thought for you!

Untouchability will not go away by blaming brahmins. In the recent clash between caste hindus (?) and dalits in Caddalore recently, what was the issue? Brahmins were no longer in the picture.

All these years, when a funeral procession crosses the village temple, the oppari and beating of drums was stopped as a show of respect and followed by dalits in the village. This year, some youth in the profession broke this unwritten but in vogue agreement and made noise. This was objected, a scuffle ensued and the body was left on the ground for 45 minutes. The procession continued with police protection. Many dalits in the procession were wearing poonal. You can draw your conclusion!

I am not sure whether the doubt/s in my post, cited first above, have been answered at all. The incident narrated in the last para has nothing to do with "untouchability" but with "unwailability" I think.

If caste notion goes away, let us assume, where and how will varna notions be relevant?

 

[sarang]

This extract is from "The Life of Ramanujacharya" by Alkondaville Govindacharya, published in 1906.

Quote:
Yamunacharya was thus troubled in his mind as to a competent successor to whom to hand on the Torch of faith for posterity. His disciple Nambi or Srisailapurna had proceeded to the Holy Mount of Tirupati to live there for a time in the service of the Lord seated therin (Venkatachalapathi). He had two sisters, Bhumi-piratti and Peria-piratti, or Bhu-devi and Sri-devi. The elder Bhu-devi was married to Asuri Kesavapperumal, the performer of many Yagas, residing at Sriperumpudur. Sri-devi was married to Kamalnayana-bhatta of the vatta-mani clan, residining at Mazhalaimangalam.

Of Bhu-devi was born Ramanuja, the Great Reformer and Religionist of the 12th Century . . ."

In those days iyengar-iyer classification was not there, I think, as these are not attached as surnames. Mostly it was nambi, bhattar, acharya, dikshita. Even vadakalai-thenkalai groupin is after the time of vedanta desikar-pillai lokachariyar.

Another intersting topic. Vedantis, smarthas, vaishnavites, saivites.

Wiki says:

Ramanuja was born Ilaya Perumal in a Brahmin family in the village of Perumbudur, Tamil Nadu, India.

His father was Asuri Keshava Somayaji Deekshitar and mother was Kanthimathi.

Deekshitar and Kanthimathi are Iyer names!

 

[Raji Ram]

May be what Wikipedia says

The Iyengar community trace their origin in Tamil Nadu from the period of Ramanuja.

is true!!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dear Sravna Sir,

You have taken pains to collect info. from Wikipedia! I wonder why many popular musicians are left out in the list. And the names

of famous ladies are not in the list! We all know that the Iyers and Iyengars have been dominating the music field for many decades!

BTW, is there any use in knowing the subsect, when many brahmins are trying to coax their children to choose the partner at least

from the brahmins with any mother tongue!

It is because very few people take the trouble to log in to Wikipedia and add the names. I had made an appeal in this forum years back with no response.

BTW some of the classifications of sub caste posted in an earlier post is wrong. As one who has spent a lot of time in adding those names, I know. In fact there used to be even arguments whether a particular person is an Iyer or not. Some of the names got struck off because I could not prove that they were Iyers, because this information is not given in the biography.

A number of names can be added from the list of Brahmins mentioned in the ******* book on Brahmins.

There were more people interested in adding the names of actors than any one else.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The division among Tamil Brahmins is not Iyers and Iyengars. But Smarthas and Vaishnavas.

Smartha Tradition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Iyyarooraan]

In Vadama again there is sub-division - Northern Vadama (a friend of mine, who is very fair) and thus others must be Southern Vadama, who may, or not be fair.

 

[prasad1]

Vaishnavas are either Vadkalai or Thenkalai but how come the above Vaishnavas are Vadamas (An Iyer subsect)

All the vaishnavas come from Smartha stock. It is like Jesus comes from Judaism stock.

 

[Govinda]

All the vaishnavas come from Smartha stock. It is like Jesus comes from Judaism stock.

Those early smArtAs were vedic/smriti followers, not Advaita followers. Hope, you understand this.

 

[prasad1]

Those early smArtAs were vedic/smriti followers, not Advaita followers. Hope, you understand this.

LOL
If you ask a Cristian, wether they follow Judaism, they will say they are totally distinct from Jews!!!
If you ask a Sikh wether he follows Hinduism, they will say no they are a distinct religion, even though Guru Granth has numerous references to Hindu Gods.
"Reference is made to the avatars of Vishnu in the Granth Sahib. The Dasma Granth deals with all the avatars beginning on page 169. Volume two of the Dasma Granth is exclusively based on Krishna. It is accepted that Guru Gobind Singh was a staunch believer in Durga Mata (Mother Goddess). In the entire Guru Granth Sahib, the Vedas are respected and referred to as sacred. Guru Gobind Singh states that the Vedas originated from Brahma and the path of the Vedas is the only path for the people to follow. Sikhism heavily bases itself on Karma yoga (the science of actions) and states that if an individual acts only on good deeds, selfless acts with a pure devotion to God, they can achieve the ultimate state of existence."

But you ask a Sikhism person particularly the Khalistan brand, they will say they are superior to Hindus (what do they know of Hinduism).
Similarly you are trying to prove that you are superior to Smarthas (or the Advaita sect). For your information the Advaita followers too follow smrities.
If it walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck it must be a duck, or a very good imitator.

 

[Govinda]

All the vaishnavas come from Smartha stock. It is like Jesus comes from Judaism stock.

I meant to say that this is a wrong assumption and illogic. You are falsely claiming that we were sankara-advaitins before and split from the smartha stock. There were many brahmins and who identified themselves only by Gotras [mostly as northerners) and non-brahmins who were vaishnavAs themselves.

Ramanuja went to an advaiti teacher and differed in his philosophical view of YAdavaPrakAsha. So, he sought other teachers. Whereas His own teacher YAmuna, was from lineage of vaishnavAs/alwars [nAthamuni of 900 AD]. The vaishnavA teachers (from Vashishta to Vyasa to Bhishma to Krishna) are also proponents of Advaita of the Vedas, and were vaishnavAs, who heavily emphasized on difference from jiva and Brahman, and on the karma yoga. Plus, Bodhayana, Tanka, dramida were vishihst-advaitic commentators of mimAmsa and upanishads.

So the brahmins practised different schools of thought but didnt explictly classify until the period of Ramanuja, as he was vociferous
against the contradictions of Sankara Advaita.

 

[Govinda]

But you ask a Sikhism person particularly the Khalistan brand, they will say they are superior to Hindus (what do they know of Hinduism).
Similarly you are trying to prove that you are superior to Smarthas (or the Advaita sect). For your information the Advaita followers too follow smrities.
If it walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck it must be a duck, or a very good imitator.

Like the sikhs, You are trying to prove, we hindus have all the knowledge only from Sankara. Whereas, all the maAvAkyas wre from the vedas/upanishads that existed before and many were following them! So, you got that wrong on the chronology of the sects!

Though all ducks quacks, some dive, some dabble/swim, some are elders of the artic and some have golden-eye (hiranya-aksha), but they are mostly innate qualities, only the form, quaking are of similar stock!

 

[prasad1]

You are falsely claiming that we were sankara-advaitins before and split from the smartha stock.

It is of no importance to me to show any distinction, your religion is your business.
You do grave injustice to me by falsely accusing me of something I did not say. Show me proof that I said anything about Shankara, or Advaita in my statement in this thread.

As far as I am concerned my religion is my private matter. I was only giving a historic perspective of the so-called divide between Iyers and Iyangars.

 

[renuka]

LOL! seeing the debate between Prasad ji and Govinda Ji..I wonder what difference does it really make who originated from which school of thought as long we know what we are following now and aware where it leads too..other wise we are not much different from those who fight becos of difference of doctrines of the violent kind!

 

[biswa]

What is the point of obsessing about the past and which ancestor was more glorious? Does it matter if my great-grandfather was a king, if I am unable to put food on the table myself?

 

[Govinda]

if I am unable to put food on the table myself?

You are able to put food on your table, becos your parents put food on your table until now! So, salute them before you eat that food.

 

[Govinda]

What is the point of obsessing about the past and which ancestor was more glorious?
Does it matter if my great-grandfather was a king, if I am unable to put food on the table myself?

Noone is obsessing here. I just pointed out my understanding. You are able to put food on your table, becos your parents brought up to that level!

So, salute them before you eat that food. If you cant put the food at the table, blame your own.

Without Graham Bell, we wont be talking on the internet, iphone and other stuff. Past becomes the Present! Without Pingala, Indian mathematician and his binary number, you woun't be having computers. He had already given the later Pascal's triangle and Fibonacci series But, when it is about the glory of indian antiquity, we want to claim equality!

 

[tks]

In Vadama again there is sub-division - Northern Vadama (a friend of mine, who is very fair) and thus others must be Southern Vadama, who may, or not be fair.

All-

I thought all Vadamas are from North implied by the name ..

I still have no idea what differences are between each of the sub-sects in terms of tradition and practice.

Similarly other than the kind of Namam used what is the difference between Then Kalai and Vada Kalai (who I am told think they are superior and accepted) as opposed to each of the Iyer sub-sects all think they are the greatests ..

From a distance all this look very comical

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Smartas are not followers of Advaita as they claim. They follow all six Dharsanas.

I do not know how many of you are aware of the titles of the Matathipathi of Sankara Matams. These titles are recited by people who consider the Sankaracharya as their personal Guru.

Shad Dharsana sthanapacharya

Sankyathraya prithipadaka

Vaidhika Marga Pravarthaka

A sloka recited by Tamil Brahmins

Sasthram sarira Mimansa devasthu Parameswara

Acharya Sankaracharya santhu me janma janmani

These clearly indicate that Smarta religion follows all the six Dharsanas or systems of Philosophy.

 

[Govinda]

From a distance all this look very comical

There is nothing comical in anyone following their viewpoints or perception. I didnt say Iyengars are superior, but their lineage existed way before Sankara/Ramanuja, so we split after smartAs/advaita is not right. Lineage of Nathamuni, who are thAtacharyAs, most antique Iyengars.

Sri Ramanuja like other vadamas broke that tradition. To be true, Iyers are very fair complexioned, healthy, successful in many fields, occupy top positions, and there are too-many musicians., and have to be considered superior. Iyengars are not that musically inclined and are religiously inclined after Sri Ramanuja's promoting temple service/mathams/Alwar's works.

 

[tbs]

hi
hi nachi sir,

asthram sarira Mimansa devasthu Parameswara

Acharya Sankaracharya santhu me janma janmani

These clearly indicate that Smarta religion follows all the six Dharsanas or systems of Philosophy.


this is not neccessary....we are smarthas....vadamas....but we follow vaishnava acharyas....we put naamam....keethu naama,.....


we follow srirangam panchangam....not any shankarachaya matam followers.....our family kuladaivam vishnu.....still we called


as VADASESTHU VADAMAS......we purely follow vaishnava system....stilll we are SMARTHAS....

 

[tks]

There is nothing comical in anyone following their viewpoints or perception. I didnt say Iyengars are superior, but their lineage existed way before Sankara/Ramanuja, so we split after smartAs/advaita is not right. Lineage of Nathamuni, who are thAtacharyAs, most antique Iyengars.

Sri Ramanuja like other vadamas broke that tradition. To be true, Iyers are very fair complexioned, healthy, successful in many fields, occupy top positions, and there are too-many musicians., and have to be considered superior. Iyengars are not that musically inclined and are religiously inclined after Sri Ramanuja's promoting temple service/mathams/Alwar's works.

Having lived outside India for almost all my adult life and being not exposed to sub-sects and their differences it is sort of funny for me to hear about these terms at the forum. I have nothing for or against any sub-sects actually.

Human being all over the world have divisions.

Our forefathers never kept history as in other traditions and this is a topic of another thread.

None of us know for sure what happened and when. It will be pointless to debate about some small differences when in reality all that we need to know is available now.

Focus on history or ancestry up to a point of academic interest and even to learn from is fine.

More often than not such a focus leads to issues.

The massacre at Rwanda - which happened in our collective watch - when more than a million people were slaughtered. It all came about due to historical fights and perceived superiority of two tribes - Tutsi and Hutu. You or I could not possibly tell the differences among these tribes and yet their perceived differences drove them to extreme violence.

In this forum itself there is too much preoccupation with historical focus on any topic - mostly about brahmins and non-brahmins. Most of their writing are baseless in my view and not provable if anyone has time to construct a proof which itself is impossible given that our ancestors did not keep history.

Having said all this, let me also state that there is no problem in my view with anyone maintaining their perceived identity and even feel proud within their world view of who they are or where they come from.

 

[renuka]

BTW why don't we have a contest in Forum..who is the most popular TB(male) in forum?

We could have some basic quiz on general knowledge, religion,politics, current affairs,writing ability, ability to debate etc.

It would be fun to watch who will be Mr TB forum.

I wonder how many will agree to this contest?