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Political and Social Issues concerned with TBs

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@ Nara (2)

"Validity of AIT must be left to the academics to settle. But, with the resurgence of Hindutva in India it has become a political issue."

AIT has been part of Indian politics since the British made the idea - after which it came to academics too, and into ideas of parties like Hindutva (who are against it) and DK, DMK (who are for it).

"Everyone has an opinion, TBs particularly -- they oppose AIT with a vengeance, I don't know why?"

My parents both believe in the AIT, they learnt it in school like I did. I believed in it for sometime too, but it raised doubts. It was not only the brahmins who opposed AIT though, B.R. Ambedkar himself opposed the view because he could clearly see a false idea being fabricated and put into academics my the power of government.

There are brahmins who accept the AIT too if you are wondering - like my mom's cousin who I visited some months ago (mentioned below also). But there are those who oppose it too, if they do with a vengance its because it seems to bring them to a point where they need to exculpate themselves of something that never occured.

"I know that TBs in general feel a kind of separateness from everyone else -- less so among the younger gen and more so among the older ones."

Nara, this is a relavant thing to discuss, which is why I started a separate thread. But I agree with this. It is probably because we had a culture that was different in lifestyle, diet etc, and in fear that it would become "polluted" they segragated themselves. I spoke of this in the other thread on caste system. Things like madi, untouchability or whatever it is based on need to be rooted. I disagree with the idea that society can progress if its various people are separated.

"TB, everyone else is a Shudra."

This is a generalization.

"TBs routinely behaved for centuries as though they were different from everyone else in Tamil Nadu."

They were different by culture, lifestyle they didn't "behave" to pretend. But tell me, why did the DK's anti-brahmin movement put the load of caste practices on brahmins? Today, brahmins hardly exist in Tamil Nadu, there is still poverty, still casteism.

I agree that TBs did many social evils, and that they should have given space to others, and treated them like humans. But the mind-poisioning of DK/DMK lies in the fact that they didn't speak of casteism as the evil, they separated brahmins from the rest when many non-brahmin upper castes had caste discrimination practices too. A good thing would have been to condemn the practice, not isolate a community.

"all the NBs joined together and agreed, yes you are different, as AIT says so, you guys invaded us."

All NBs wouldn't have done this if the DK propaganda against brahmins didn't. There is also aversion is to the fact that TB have some people among them who are light-skinned. This is not because of any "aryans", these people came from north brahmin groups in later times.

DK/DMK in their anti-brahminism cannot own up to actual history, or the legacy of tamil brahmins in various fields.

"Genetic studies show the highest Brahmin to the lowest Dalits share a high degree of commonality of X chromosome pattern in the DNA showing descent from common pool of mothers. Such studies also seem to suggest some high-caste Hindus and Muslims share common patriarchy with central Asian tribes or something close."

It is true that genetic outsiders came and blended into our culture before some became upper castes. But there is no study that speaks of a huge difference. Most Muslims in India are converts, btw. People came into India throughout history, not only as invaders. I have come across south brahmins who are very dark and very fair too. Genetic studies also aren't consistent in these claims because their results depend on the samples they take. You will be able to find both types of studies ones that agree with your claim and others that say there was no major influx, and that even Dalit populations have huge section with foreign genetic markers.

"Now TBs are upset."

Yes, because the ruling fails to acknowledge that we are Tamilians. My friend (also an Iyer) was speaking in sympathy of Srilankan Tamils, my mother considers Tamil language like her own blood, but I need to assure both these people that the Tamil government considers them outsiders.

DK/DMK care two hoots about our sympathies to our land or culture - it doesn't matter to them what we like of Tamil culture, or what we historically contributed to it.

I recently visited TN some months ago. I stayed at my mom's cousin's place (a DMK supporter, atheist), we had debates given that he and I shared different views. He perfected fitted the self-hating, self-rebuking version of person from brahmin family who had been made to feel that every misery in the country (or TN) started and ended with brahmins. I told him caste system has been practiced by so many groups, DK/DMK poisoned people's mind by isolating one community.

To the DMK, there was not one good brahmin, brahmins contributed nothing to Tamil society. Today, the Maharashtra government is doing this by removing the statue of Kondadev, Shivaji's mentor merely because he was a brahmin. Is it fair?

On the other hand, upper caste non-brahmins have escaped the whole blame of our society's failures, which are conveniently placed on the brahmins. Why didn't the DK, or DMK care about addressing that? Periyar is himself an upper caste. I really don't deny that brahmins were in good part responsible, as a community for social evils, but there is a manner of handling social problems.

"They say AIT is what the Britishers used to divide the ever so harmonious social landscape that existed pre-British."

haha..the landscape of India was divided when British came. AIT was devised when the British saw us uniting and understanding the idea of Indian nationalism - this is when they put AIT to picture, so as to build the divide again. It still remains in Indian politics. Exactly what the Hindutva does to the Muslims - branding them as foreigners, DK/DMK does to brahmins.

"But, fully assimilating and becoming an indistinguishable and integral part of Tamil society will make all our lives better."

And who decides what being part of Tamil society is? At what point in history was our lifestyle considered contrary to being Tamil?

I agree that a lot of change has to come in our societies thinking, but it hardly means everything else in TN society is going to be perfect without us. TBs have contributed a great deal too, speaking of just the social evils is unfair. The motive for any progressive party would have been to handle to destroy the issue, not a community.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
@Vivek,

are there TBs thinking they are greater, have madi and all today? looks like such generation has vanished. but TBs were caught in surprise at one time by EVR and all that. it was TBs' foolishness. and now any amount of crying, blaming NBs for their smartness is only advertising TB foolishness to whole world, i think so. After all it is politics and EVR played his cards smartly. the fruits of power and corrupt money now reaped by DMK!
 
I don't understand what 'AIT' means. Can you please clarify?

Coming to the main discussion, I do not think brahmins (or TBs) were 'largely responsible' for the social evils in TN. As has been mentioned in this thread, it is just that TBs followed a separate culture that differentiated them from others and had to therefore observe some practices, which were viewed 'anti-social'. I don't think TBs do not exist in TN nor do I think that TBs have lost respect in the society in TN. We still command respect not because we are TBs but because of our value system. As I mentioned in the thread 'Enge Brahmanan?', we do not get respect because there is a thread hanging around our chest but because of character and values. DK or DMK any other organisation or EVR, Anna or any other leader - no one can take away the place of Brahmins as long as Brahmins conduct themselves the way they are supposed to.

Loka samasta sukhino bavantu.
 
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IMO, in Tamilnadu, the DK people successfully turned public opinion towards themselves because:

1) Brahmins themselves claimed to be aryans and considered the rest as Dravidians. Their contribution to discrediting AIT at that time was minimal. By glorifying the caste system and justifying things like untouchability, they merely reinforced the idea that they were exclusivists who treated the rest with some amount of disdain. This provided a fertile platform for DK activists to claim that brahmins are doing so because of the aryan-dravidian divide.

2) The orthodoxy could have chosen to speak with EVR or DK activists and addressed a few issues to reach a compromise at that time itself. But it may appear that from the 1920s onwards the orthodoxy may have contributed to worsening the divide.

3) Brahmins went to court to testify varnas. And this was despite the fact that brahmins themselves were as mixed as anyone else. The others may have viewed such brahmins as hypocrites who used the shastras to circumvent, obfuscate, and safeguard their own identities and yet seek to assign varnas for other communities. The east-indian and south-indian society on its part was foolish in running after varna appellations.

4) Brahmins played some amount of monopoly when they occupied jobs in the british departments. Only after the Justice Party initiated the quota system of reservations, a larger section of NBs were able to get jobs.

Regards.
 
@ Sri Sarma-61

"are there TBs thinking they are greater, have madi and all today? "

Not that I know among the present generation, but we will have to check with rural areas. The important point here is even a thing of the past doesn't leave a communities image immediately. The general idea from NBs is that TBs think of themselves as greater, but it is very well true that many other communties have such views of themselves. There is a caste heirarchy, its not "brahmins and the rest" kind of a scene. This is why I am against DK / DMK. They are more interested in anti-brahminism than casteism.

"After all it is politics and EVR played his cards smartly. the fruits of power and corrupt money now reaped by DMK!"

Spoken correctly. The TB community hasn't put its influence over TN society in the manner other Tamil upper castes have. But to me it is insignificant whether DMK of anyone rules, a platform needs to be raised to frankly discuss the issues and greivances of different communities with each other. By understanding that we are one community, we should meet at compromises to neither disrespect others nor ignore our own traditions. At the same time, we shouldn't have a backward mentality of what it means to be pure - a new idea of purity and success should come.
How many people have we helped to live a decent life? What contributions have we made to society? Are we truly respected? How do our actions make other feel?

Those are questions we should ask.

Merely claiming respect by tradition will get us only contempt. Any community gains respect by their contributions to society, and how they treat others. If we have got respect as Sri Haridasa Siva says its okay, but we need to give respect also. The idea of madi, or following the traditional varna system only makes others feel disrespected. Its fine to have our culture as long as we ourselves continually question its essence and make it relevant in every era. "What makes a brahmin?" is an essential question we should ask ourselves today as a community.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Hi all,

I am a relatively new member and I have been reading the long posts in this forum about AIT, its validity and/or lack of validity.

I have a doubt. Irrespective of what happened in the past, how does the endless discussions, arguments and counter arguments about the past change the conditions as they exist today.
Wouldn't it be better if the discussions centered around what could be done to change the existing conditions. In my personal view this has to start at the individual level, where every TB learns to treat others as equal human beings, cast aside any notions of being superior and be a good member of the society in the existing conditions. In time things will even out and I strongly believe TBs then will become an integral part of the society. After all it has taken the Dravida parties in Tamil Nadu more than a few decades to spread this anti brahmin messge.

I speak of this from personal experience having lived in a western society for more than 30 years where I stand out with my dark skin and following strange rituals that no one understood initially but have now accepted it and respect it.

Just my two cents worth.

K. Kumar.
 
.....AIT has been part of Indian politics since the British made the idea - after which it came to academics too, and into ideas of parties like Hindutva (who are against it) and DK, DMK (who are for it).

[...]

My parents both believe in the AIT, they learnt it in school like I did. I believed in it for sometime too, but it raised doubts.
Vivek, AIT is not something that common people have to either believe or not believe. I don't know how old you are, but I am sufficiently old enough to know AIT was not part of any conversation until the rise of Hindutva forces. To ask whether one believes in AIT, like my nephew asked me a few months ago, is patently ridiculous. Whether AIT is valid or not is to be debated by academicians, not politicians and ordinary folks.

...if they do with a vengance its because it seems to bring them to a point where they need to exculpate themselves of something that never occured.
Vivek, whether or not AIT is valid, varna/jati system is a reality, Brahminism is built on it is a reality, orthodox Brahmins still hold it dear is a reality, even in this day and age Brahmins repeatedly glorify MDS is a reality. Even if academic research conclusively proves AIT is a myth, these realities will not change.

"TB, everyone else is a Shudra."

This is a generalization.
Vivek, you are probably too young to know, but this is absolutely true. NBs were routinely referred to as Shudras, no generalization. Things have changed now because of EVR, DK, and DMK. Today, nobody can say the S word openly in public, but many TBs do use it in private, especially the orthodox. The younger generation is different because of more mixing with NB, education, urban living, etc.

They were different by culture, lifestyle they didn't "behave" to pretend. But tell me, why did the DK's anti-brahmin movement put the load of caste practices on brahmins? Today, brahmins hardly exist in Tamil Nadu, there is still poverty, still casteism.
This topic has been discussed many times. I am sure many longtime members are tired of this argument. Let me just make a couple of points:

  • Pause for a minute and think why anti-brahmin sentiment found so much resonance among the common folks even though high caste NBs were the ones who perpetrated and still perpetrate horrible violence against Dalits.
  • To what extent this culture and lifestyle difference you are talking about is benign differences, not hierarchical separation?
Be honest with yourself, don't just say DK used false propaganda.

I agree that TBs did many social evils, and that they should have given space to others, and treated them like humans. But the mind-poisioning of DK/DMK lies in the fact that they didn't speak of casteism as the evil, they separated brahmins from the rest when many non-brahmin upper castes had caste discrimination practices too. A good thing would have been to condemn the practice, not isolate a community. All NBs wouldn't have done this if the DK propaganda against brahmins didn't.
It does no good for Brahmins to keep blaming others, think why DK/DMK were so successful in putting this albatross around the Brahmin's neck? If you go back to the 20s and 30s, you will see there was a raging war between the likes of Maraimalai Adigal (MMA) and EVR. They were at each others throats. TBs could have taken the high road and helped transform the society. But, for TB, MDS and caste system were integral to their way of life, culture, etc. Eventually MMA and EVR reconciled for what they saw as the greater good, namely, opposing Brahminsim which was at the root of varna system and a whole host of superstitions.


There is also aversion is to the fact that TB have some people among them who are light-skinned. This is not because of any "aryans", these people came from north brahmin groups in later times.
Vivek, be honest, don't you think it is the TBs who cite the light-skin to claim superiority. For example, many Vadakalai Iyengars routinely claim Thenkalais are NB because there are many Thenkalai Iyengar with dark skin. Of course this is absurd, yet this myth is quite common. Couple of weeks back there was a poster who made this claim and asked me to check with a Vadakalai Iyengar, without realizing I was one in my poorvashrama :). The light skin superiority mentality is quite common among TBs and upper caste NBs as well.

DK/DMK in their anti-brahminism cannot own up to actual history, or the legacy of tamil brahmins in various fields.
This is not true. One of the most virulent anti-Brahmin writer called Subburathinam took Bharathidasan as his pen name, Bharathi a brahmin by birth. EVR himself looked to Rajaji as a close confidant. There are many Brahmin contributors to ancient Sangam literature that are preserved and studied by everyone. The opposition is to Brahminism, not Brahmins.

Yes, because the ruling fails to acknowledge that we are Tamilians. My friend (also an Iyer) was speaking in sympathy of Srilankan Tamils, my mother considers Tamil language like her own blood, but I need to assure both these people that the Tamil government considers them outsiders.
This is a strange way of looking at things. How is one to be acknowledged as a Tamilian, pray tell? You know, among my nieces and nephews, not a single one, not one, can read and write in Tamil fluently. To be a Tamil, or not to be, is our own choice, no government need to recognize it.

I recently visited TN some months ago. I stayed at my mom's cousin's place (a DMK supporter, atheist), we had debates given that he and I shared different views. He perfected fitted the self-hating, self-rebuking version of person from brahmin family who had been made to feel that every misery in the country (or TN) started and ended with brahmins. I told him caste system has been practiced by so many groups, DK/DMK poisoned people's mind by isolating one community.
Well, I am not a DMK supporter, but I probably fit your mom's cousin in other respects. But, let me tell you, I am no self-hating person, if anything I love who I am. Now, you can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fool all of them all the time. You need to think why isolating one community found such resonance among everyone else.

In any case, whatever the extent of culpability of other NB groups, however nefarious the ulterior motives of DK may be, within the confines of Brahmin caste, there must be some self searching and attempt to reform. The fact is, there is none.

To the DMK, there was not one good brahmin, brahmins contributed nothing to Tamil society.
This is not true. If you are looking for appreciation of the Brahmin caste in general for the contribution of individual Brahmins, then I must say you are asking for too much.

Anyway, let me leave it with this. AIT or not, DK propaganda or not, a much higher priority is to do some much overdue self-examination. Blaming others before doing this may give some temporary satisfaction, but does no good for nobody.

Cheers!
 
@ Sri Sarma-61
Spoken correctly. The TB community hasn't put its influence over TN society in the manner other Tamil upper castes have.
...Are we truly respected? How do our actions make other feel?

Those are questions we should ask.

Shri Vivek,

I think the problems with we Tbs are the two in blue-italics in the above. First, we can't anymore think of 'putting our influence' on any one else or any society. Maximum we can hope for is to be united in politics and put our influence in general politics to our best. but truth is Tbs are so against each other and won't do anything unitedly. Each one is leader-no one can be follower at all.

Next, why should some one, some group "be respected" and seek respect especially? we TBs should try to live as good citizens, law abiding, that's all required. It is democracy. everyone is equal, at least in the book. So, looking for /hoping to get 'respect' from others is trying to remake past when brahmins got first position out of compulsion on others and social rules then. If nobody is disrespected now it is OK. That is what exists in Kerala or other some states. why Tbs in tn are alone feeling different?

we should be satisfied if TBs change with times and feel happy about it. No digging up garbage of the past. Just like what Shri Kumar says at post no.6.
 
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TO ALL MEMBERS,
Most of you would have seen the photo or statue of 'Tiruvallavar' wearing only dhoti in the form of 'Panchakatcham'.Tiruvalluvar did not belong to Brahmin community.Can we assume all in Tamilnadu in ancient times were wearing dhoti in the form of only panchakatcham. The wearing of dhoti in lungi style by all community including Brahmins might have been followed at a later stage.In WEST Bengal all communities wear dhoti inthe form of panchakatcham on festival days, but wear in lungi style at other times.Can somone throw light on this issue?
While in DELHI ,once my junior colleague spoke to me about the tank in Golden temple,Amritsar about the holy water in the tank.I tried to explain to him such a tank exists in all major hindu temples in south India with a four pillar mantap in the middle.In earlier days there was inlet and outlet for all such tanks which got blocked over a period of time and now the water has become stagnant.People used to take bath in those tanks earlier,
but people are scared and take a little water and sprinkle over their head for sentimental reasons.Similarly about wearing turbans this system was also prevalent among Hindus.I have seen my father and a number of
persons going to office and court only wearing Turbans.Now this custom has been discarded and younger generation may not know about these customs.
 
: Political and Social Issues concerned with TBs

TO ALL MEMBERS,
Most of you would have seen the photo or statue of 'Tiruvallavar' wearing only dhoti in the form of 'Panchakatcham'.Tiruvalluvar did not belong to Brahmin community.Can we assume all in Tamilnadu in ancient times were wearing dhoti in the form of only panchakatcham. The wearing of dhoti in lungi style by all community including Brahmins might have been followed at a later stage.In WEST Bengal all communities wear dhoti inthe form of panchakatcham on festival days, but wear in lungi style at other times.Can somone throw light on this issue?
While in DELHI ,once my junior colleague spoke to me about the tank in Golden temple,Amritsar about the holy water in the tank.I tried to explain to him such a tank exists in all major hindu temples in south India with a four pillar mantap in the middle.In earlier days there was inlet and outlet for all such tanks which got blocked over a period of time and now the water has become stagnant.People used to take bath in those tanks earlier,
but people are scared and take a little water and sprinkle over their head for sentimental reasons.Similarly about wearing turbans this system was also prevalent among Hindus.I have seen my father and a number of
persons going to office and court only wearing Turbans.Now this custom has been discarded and younger generation may not know about these customs.

Till recently, say fifty years ago, all communities were wearing Kaccham style of dhothi in Tamil Nadu. The meaning of Sanskrit word Panccha Kaccham is roughly five yards (Kaccham is a measurement like yard). From the photographs I find that both grand fathers of mine were wearing Punccha Kaccha Veshti, long coats, Angavastram and turbans. Stitched clothing is alien to Hindu Society. Coats (Angarakh) and Turbans came to our society from Persia and middle east. The word "Turban" itself is from Persian "dulband" Band meaning "To close", to tie. Again " Lungi" is an Urdu variant of Persian word "Lung" meaning piece of cloth. The present Lungi style of wearing Dhoti is of recent origin based on the convenience it provides for the wearer.
No one knows for certain whether Tiruvalluvar was a brahmin or a Jain ? The Statue of Tiruvalluvar in Kanyakumari is based on the imagination of the
sculptor Dr.V.Ganapathy Sthapathy.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Till recently, say fifty years ago, all communities were wearing Kaccham style of dhothi in Tamil Nadu. The meaning of Sanskrit word Panccha Kaccham is roughly five yards (Kaccham is a measurement like yard). From the photographs I find that both grand fathers of mine were wearing Punccha Kaccha Veshti, long coats, Angavastram and turbans. Stitched clothing is alien to Hindu Society. Coats (Angarakh) and Turbans came to our society from Persia and middle east. The word "Turban" itself is from Persian "dulband" Band meaning "To close", to tie. Again " Lungi" is an Urdu variant of Persian word "Lung" meaning piece of cloth. The present Lungi style of wearing Dhoti is of recent origin based on the convenience it provides for the wearer.
No one knows for certain whether Tiruvalluvar was a brahmin or a Jain ? The Statue of Tiruvalluvar in Kanyakumari is based on the imagination of the
sculptor Dr.V.Ganapathy Sthapathy.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.


Shri Brahmanyan Sir,

"All communities" could not wear panchakachcham then and now also; so many people - poor and farm workers, artisans and so on did not have good single dhotis even. now also poor people do not. so we are talking of rich people only and living in unreal world.

I hear turban is known even in ancient India and also vedas refer to it. Kindly check.
 
@ Sri kkumar

"Wouldn't it be better if the discussions centered around what could be done to change the existing conditions. In my personal view this has to start at the individual level, where every TB learns to treat others as equal human beings, cast aside any notions of being superior and be a good member of the society in the existing conditions. "

I agree 100%. This is why I believe the goal and customs of our community need to be re-questioned, and established by us today. But one thing is there, organizations like the DMK will continue to bait us because it gives them political mileage.

"I speak of this from personal experience having lived in a western society for more than 30 years where I stand out with my dark skin and following strange rituals that no one understood initially but have now accepted it and respect it."

Yes, and in this way you also represent our community in some way, don't you feel? This is why if we as individuals could choose what we wish to practice of our tradition, and what not to, or go by your own convictions of what is right, it would be good. We need to non-conformists too, when we feel like - only then we can change things.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
@ Sri Sarma-61

"First, we can't anymore think of 'putting our influence' on any one else or any society. Maximum we can hope for is to be united in politics and put our influence in general politics to our best. but truth is Tbs are so against each other and won't do anything unitedly. Each one is leader-no one can be follower at all."

What sort of influence do you imagine we should put? We can't influence people to think lowly of themselves and merely look up to us. While our past has evil practice, which generally stems from us using society's help but treating people as lower than us, it also has a tradition which people look up to - like of education. Only if we were willing to spread that and treat others as equals it would have been mutually better. We have little qualification to even consider ourselves "high" given that our civilization fell to foreigners and we failed to defend it. We will thus be the object of merciless rebuke. Recall the rhetoric questions I had typed about what anti-brahminists in Orkut asked "Why don't brahmins solve today's poverty, disease and drought?", "what were brahmins doing when Turkic rulers came with guns?". These are valid questions if indeed any community claims to be the legacy of a civilization. The truth of history of course is not as simple, all upper castes practiced caste system and discrimination. The politics played in TN separated us neatly though, even as other upper castes (like Thevars etc.) were involved in caste discrimination and violence.

"we should be satisfied if TBs change with times and feel happy about it. No digging up garbage of the past."

Again, the DK/ DMK will not spare you :) You will ask for forgetting events of the past in the same way white Americans will speak of forgetting events of American history past. It is progressive for a society to not dwell in such thoughts of the past - but the bruise of a community settles slowly. Further, to aggrevate the negative sentiment against us - the DK/DMK propaganda will exist.

We must thus not forget our past (its impossible), but bring out its entire matter - garbage and contributions. And as a community we do have a deal of contributions, even if DK/DMK will not acknowledge it. Asking people to not dig the past makes DMK look justified in its anti-brahmin stance. The truth of the matter is that the upper caste NBs who are sang in chorus with the DK/DMK against brahmins were very well part of caste discrimination like we were - but they absolve themselves by blaming us.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
@ Sri Sarma-61

"First, we can't anymore think of 'putting our influence' on any one else or any society. Maximum we can hope for is to be united in politics and put our influence in general politics to our best. but truth is Tbs are so against each other and won't do anything unitedly. Each one is leader-no one can be follower at all."

What sort of influence do you imagine we should put? We can't influence people to think lowly of themselves and merely look up to us. While our past has evil practice, which generally stems from us using society's help but treating people as lower than us, it also has a tradition which people look up to - like of education. Only if we were willing to spread that and treat others as equals it would have been mutually better. We have little qualification to even consider ourselves "high" given that our civilization fell to foreigners and we failed to defend it. We will thus be the object of merciless rebuke. Recall the rhetoric questions I had typed about what anti-brahminists in Orkut asked "Why don't brahmins solve today's poverty, disease and drought?", "what were brahmins doing when Turkic rulers came with guns?". These are valid questions if indeed any community claims to be the legacy of a civilization. The truth of history of course is not as simple, all upper castes practiced caste system and discrimination. The politics played in TN separated us neatly though, even as other upper castes (like Thevars etc.) were involved in caste discrimination and violence.

Shri Vivek Sir,

I simply cited your words from post #5 on previous page:-

'"After all it is politics and EVR played his cards smartly. the fruits of power and corrupt money now reaped by DMK!"--these were my words.

Spoken correctly. The TB community hasn't put its influence over TN society in the manner other Tamil upper castes have.--these were yours.

now you decide what is the influence you were talking about!

"we should be satisfied if TBs change with times and feel happy about it. No digging up garbage of the past."
Again, the DK/ DMK will not spare you :) You will ask for forgetting events of the past in the same way white Americans will speak of forgetting events of American history past. It is progressive for a society to not dwell in such thoughts of the past - but the bruise of a community settles slowly. Further, to aggrevate the negative sentiment against us - the DK/DMK propaganda will exist.

We must thus not forget our past (its impossible), but bring out its entire matter - garbage and contributions. And as a community we do have a deal of contributions, even if DK/DMK will not acknowledge it. Asking people to not dig the past makes DMK look justified in its anti-brahmin stance. The truth of the matter is that the upper caste NBs who are sang in chorus with the DK/DMK against brahmins were very well part of caste discrimination like we were - but they absolve themselves by blaming us.

Regards,
Vivek.
It is practical wisdom to not go on poking a wound thinking we will cure it like that way. It will become worse only. instead of endlessly discussing 'brahminism', how japam, parayanam, sandhya, etc., will support the universe and all such imaginary items (in another thread i have seen), and not also tom tomming caste and what was historical cruelty and so on, i think people will more like TBs to live and move in society as just more citizens and adapt to all changes happening which are lawfully allowed. our young people need this and not all abracadabra about mantra, japa, acharyas and their advice and so on and so on. this is what i call 'digging up garbage'.

always thinking DMK will not spare TBs and all that is baseless fear like child afraid of "poochandi"-imagining something that may not be there and getting afraid.
 
Sri Sarma-61

Yes, I asked you that question "what sort of influence" because I felt you might have misunderstood what I meant. This is because speak of being influenced by our culture is generally seen as an attempt to put our sense of supremacy, or continue ideas like untouchability. But that is not what I was speaking of, which is why I asked you. I hope the following will clarify my point.

"The TB community hasn't put its influence over TN society in the manner other Tamil upper castes have.--these were yours.
now you decide what is the influence you were talking about!"

Let us ask ourselves why Nara says NBs see us as "different". We are different because we couldn't influence others with certain aspects of our culture, we separated from them when in truth we should have been with the rest of society.

It can't be denied that brahmins did have even a good influence on tamil society in history. But the version of history spread by some political parties like DK/DMK will always be skewered to demonizing brahmins. Everything about our past which was a bad influence is brought to the limelight, while anything good is ignored.

Brahmins will be vilified until we change this perception of what we are or what we stand for. Today, people see us as merely a ritualistic culture with ideas like untouchability, and superstition - all of which pays negatively. But this is not what our culture has been about.

Political propaganda digs history and presents a biased view, which sways the ideas of people balancing in their views. But people won't believe such negative things if they themselves are first hand witnesses to the good part of our culture and our working as a community to help society. That is exactly how we can change any negative perception of us by acting today.

"always thinking DMK will not spare TBs and all that is baseless fear like child afraid of "poochandi"-imagining something that may not be there and getting afraid. "

It is the nature of political propaganda. There is nothing baseless if you have actually read Indian history and the anti-brahmin movement, and Ambedkar's movement too. We as a community have built a negative name for ourselves as one's who believe in caste-supremacy and try to negatively influence others to bowing to us. Until we come out and change this perception by including others from any society to learn about our culture, we will continue to have that image. Read about the establishment of Indian constitution. Most people (and you can verify this by taking an internet alias or asking people in general) take it that the brahmin community was against equality and that the establishment of the constitution was done as a victory against us. While the fact that not all brahmins were casteist, or that many of them even fought against it, isn't largely acknowledged. Tell me will it be acknowledged by DMK?

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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Sri Sarma-61

Yes, I asked you that question "what sort of influence" because I felt you might have misunderstood what I meant. This is because speak of being influenced by our culture is generally seen as an attempt to put our sense of supremacy, or continue ideas like untouchability. But that is not what I was speaking of, which is why I asked you. I hope the following will clarify my point.

"The TB community hasn't put its influence over TN society in the manner other Tamil upper castes have.--these were yours.
now you decide what is the influence you were talking about!"

Let us ask ourselves why Nara says NBs see us as "different". We are different because we couldn't influence others with certain aspects of our culture, we separated from them when in truth we should have been with the rest of society.

It can't be denied that brahmins did have even a good influence on tamil society in history. But the version of history spread by some political parties like DK/DMK will always be skewered to demonizing brahmins. Everything about our past which was a bad influence is brought to the limelight, while anything good is ignored.

Brahmins will be vilified until we change this perception of what we are or what we stand for. Today, people see us as merely a ritualistic culture with ideas like untouchability, and superstition - all of which pays negatively. But this is not what our culture has been about.

Political propaganda digs history and presents a biased view, which sways the ideas of people balancing in their views. But people won't believe such negative things if they themselves are first hand witnesses to the good part of our culture and our working as a community to help society. That is exactly how we can change any negative perception of us by acting today.

Shri Vivek Sir,

I now understand. my opinion is that we are unknowingly trying to repeat the past mistake thinking that 'we should now go out and tell others that we have now become good people'. what is the best thing to do is accept the situation calmly, try to change with times (we all are doing it anyway, otherwise it will be difficult to survive) and allow some years to pass. The situation in tn is different from other states, i think. but you and other members may know better. in kerala, maharashtra (i have many relatives in mumbai and some other parts of maharashtra) brahmins have dissolved in to the general society and there is no hatred to brahmins as a class. but anti-madrasi feeling is still there because south indians do not mix like maharashtrian brahmins with society at large. but if some one goes out and says 'look, i am a brahmin, i am good, i don't believe in untouchability, superstition, etc.' it will only give rise to problem where nothing would have happened if brahmin was just one keeping silent in the society. so, i feel we shd not foolishly give rise to another chance for brahmins coming under bad name. always keep low profile, try to be not distinguishable in the society. that is the best way. now, in kerala some b youngsters are trying - perhaps vhp/rss/bjp, i don't know - to grow 'kudumi' long hair, beard and moustache etc., and show that they are brahmins. this may cause anti-brahmin feelings to come here also - it is not there now - if it grows, i feel.

"always thinking DMK will not spare TBs and all that is baseless fear like child afraid of "poochandi"-imagining something that may not be there and getting afraid. "
It is the nature of political propaganda. There is nothing baseless if you have actually read Indian history and the anti-brahmin movement, and Ambedkar's movement too. We as a community have built a negative name for ourselves as one's who believe in caste-supremacy and try to negatively influence others to bowing to us. Until we come out and change this perception by including others from any society to learn about our culture, we will continue to have that image. Read about the establishment of Indian constitution. Most people (and you can verify this by taking an internet alias or asking people in general) take it that the brahmin community was against equality and that the establishment of the constitution was done as a victory against us. While the fact that not all brahmins were casteist, or that many of them even fought against it, isn't largely acknowledged. Tell me will it be acknowledged by DMK?

Regards,
Vivek.
i don't know if people feel constitution was to defeat brahmins. but to some extent it is true also, is it not? even in the first few decades perhaps lot of ics were brahmins and they ran the govt., i read somewhere. in short i say, don't try specially to "change the perception of society about you", but you change in line with society and then they will accept you at some future time. but here in this forum i see lot of people still stuck with outdated ideas/notions about "brahminism" and all that. so i doubt whether our next generation will also be like this or will life teach them good lessons for survival.
 
Shri Vivek Sir,

. The situation in tn is different from other states, i think. but you and other members may know better. in kerala, maharashtra (i have many relatives in mumbai and some other parts of maharashtra) brahmins have dissolved in to the general society and there is no hatred to brahmins as a class. but anti-madrasi feeling is still there because south indians do not mix like maharashtrian brahmins with society at large.

.

Dear Sarma61,

It seems you are ill-informed. In Maharashtra too you would not find Brahmins marrying into other castes. In fact it is quite sharp. For that matter a Chitpavan Brahmin (also called Konkanasta) will not readily marry a Desastha Brahmin.
One has go to Pune to get a feel of all these.

I have good number of Marathi friends and if at all there is any ill-feeling it has got to do with the race for jobs and has got nothing to do with social-intercourse.

In fact Mahatma Phule is considered equivalent to our EVR, but anti-brahminism is not strident as it used to be in Tamil Nadu.
The Marathas' dislike of Brahmins is as much as the Mudaliars or other FCs have towards TBs. Neo-buddhist (SCs made into Buddhists) are shunned by the rest.
 
Dear Sarma61,

It seems you are ill-informed. In Maharashtra too you would not find Brahmins marrying into other castes. In fact it is quite sharp. For that matter a Chitpavan Brahmin (also called Konkanasta) will not readily marry a Desastha Brahmin.
One has go to Pune to get a feel of all these.

I have good number of Marathi friends and if at all there is any ill-feeling it has got to do with the race for jobs and has got nothing to do with social-intercourse.

In fact Mahatma Phule is considered equivalent to our EVR, but anti-brahminism is not strident as it used to be in Tamil Nadu.
The Marathas' dislike of Brahmins is as much as the Mudaliars or other FCs have towards TBs. Neo-buddhist (SCs made into Buddhists) are shunned by the rest.

Shri SwamiTaBra Sir,

I did not mean marriage. i said they are not moving with separate dress or marks on forehead, etc., and do not mind 'mingling' with even dalits and all in public, eating in hotels, etc. If my writing is not clear then i am sorry.

i do not know that marattas hate brahmins there. but poona is supposed to be brahmin centre and not like other parts of maharashtra.
 
@ Sarma-61 - Sorry for the late reply, I missed this.

"my opinion is that we are unknowingly trying to repeat the past mistake thinking that 'we should now go out and tell others that we have now become good people'. what is the best thing to do is accept the situation calmly, try to change with times (we all are doing it anyway, otherwise it will be difficult to survive) and allow some years to pass."

IMO, in the past we told "respect us" and that is what came to be looked upon as condescending behaviour. What I am saying is today, we should let that be, we should "do" and respect will automatically come. We too should be ready to respect others. I feel we as a community have changed for the better, our image too.

But as a community I still feel we need to set a goal and label it as officially pertaining to the community.
The more we set out to do things practically, less we will be mocked for our rituals or that we "cling" to past tradition. Given that India and humanity in general has many challenges and difficulties, its not hard to find something we should try and strive to.

"maharashtra (i have many relatives in mumbai and some other parts of maharashtra) brahmins have dissolved in to the general society and there is no hatred to brahmins as a class."

I live in Mumbai, and what you say is correct today on a personal level. There was an anti-brahmin movement in Maharashtra too, but as Sri Swami TaBra says it didn't take the tones the movement did in TN. It would be right to fight against casteism, not brahmins - many other upper caste NBs practiced casteism in very bad ways, the DK, DMK never reviled against them.

What allows parites to do propaganda against us successfully, is that we are seen as exclusivists, and also the fact that we have not absolved ourselves from a popular version of history which focusses only on our evils and ignores our contributions. But I agree there exist hardly any anti-brahmin sentiments on the personal level, here in Maharashtra (or atleast Mumbai). But its different on the political level - we just saw attempts to pull down the statue of Kondadev, Shivaji's brahmin teacher. Caste identities have bruised entire communities, and it will take time to heal I guess.

"but if some one goes out and says 'look, i am a brahmin, i am good, i don't believe in untouchability, superstition, etc.' it will only give rise to problem where nothing would have happened if brahmin was just one keeping silent in the society."

Agree with you on that. But I feel the equation becomes different when looking at us as a community. I feel that unless we don't (as a community) fight untouchability etc, we will be seen as its originators and protectors. People do acknowledge that individual brahmins have gone against their tradition to fight for untouchability, or fight for freedoms. But our tradition though is seen as supporting it, which is the problem. In short: The good brahmins have largely been seen as non-confirmists who fought their own tradition, it gives a good image to the individual, but a bad image to the community. Truth is that untouchability was practiced actually by all upper castes - not just brahmins. But the buck seems to stop at our community.

" don't know if people feel constitution was to defeat brahmins. but to some extent it is true also, is it not?"

Yes, it was in many ways. =(

And kudos to you for having posted it so frankly. We need that sort of frankness. If anything was unfair to us, I feel it was the isolation of brahmins in this crusade for equality even though many NB upper castes had practiced casteism in bad forms too.

But why that happened is also understanable - because traditionally we are the highest caste. So the buck stops at us, which is EXACTLY why we need to make our new goals clear as a community.

"but here in this forum i see lot of people still stuck with outdated ideas/notions about "brahminism" and all that. so i doubt whether our next generation will also be like this or will life teach them good lessons for survival. "

I hope this comment of yours gives people something englihtening to think about.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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@ Nara - Forget the "brahmin certificiate"

"Many people in this forum routinely say that those who can see, or persevere to see Brahman, is Brahmin. Of course this is complete nonsense. Brahmins, in all aspects of their lives, conduct themselves in a way that accepts nobody as a Brahmin other than those who have both parents who in turn have Brahmins for parents. This is true for all Brahminical religious institutions, whether it is Sankarachariyar, or SV, or Madhwa. "

Nara, one reason I appreciate your posts is that you are very frank and don't speak in overtones. This is what I wish from anyone I communicate with. The phenomenon of brahmin-pride you speak of exists in many circles, I have seen it. But on one hand, brahmin community has its strict culture which not everyone conform to or even respect - like vegetarianism, other hand the complain is that brahmins don't accept others into their fold. My first question is why would anyone want to be accepted thus? To come over caste identities, we should discern for ourselves what (you feel) is right or wrong - from any culture - even foreign cultures. In this way one will automatically find out the culture they incline to as an individual. I wouldn't want others to become brahmins and earn respect, I would like them of their own communities to come up and earn respect in their name.

Having said that I don't see why anyone (say you or anyone) would have to be accepted as a brahmin. Would you? I don't see the point of it. Many brahmins today may have only that title, what is important IMO is one's own outlook to life as an individual and broader as a community; what they really know and are aware of. Btw, Arya Samaj and some other institutes (like ISKCON) I have heard accept anyone to learn their philosophy irrespective of caste.

"orthodox Brahminism that unabashedly insists that Brahminas are, first and foremost, ones who have both parents born to Brahmin parents for seven generations."

"Brahminism" if it is to speak of the social philosophy of brahmins has changed over innumerous eras. There are texts which clearly say that a brahmin is not one of merely lineage.

"I am yet to come across one solitary Brahmin who is unwilling to be a hypocrite and reject this illogical stance."

Nara, be free and tell us specific cases where you have felt discriminated. Do you vie for the tag of becoming a "brahmin" or want brahmins accept you as one of them? If so, why?

As for the "seven lives" claim, I wonder how one can find out who their parents were in the "past life" were, let alone seven lives hehe. You can say that mockingly to those who speak thus.

To these people I can only say that mighty rivers origin at mountains and may end in swamps. The lineage of great heroes is ever unknown - one Eklavya of humble lineage defeated the sons of the devas in succession. Why does it matter whose lineage one is from?

You are you ultimately. People who claim excess pride from being of so and so lineage are only covering the bruises of having accomplished little themselves.

IMO ultimately, what questions we genuinely ask ourselves matter: Have we exercised our mind by making choices or merely followed things without understanding? Do we have dedication to a discipline? Do we have virtue? These are the valid questions for anyone, of any lineage.

"In this context, I think the urge to know what motivated Happy, or I for that matter, to join this forum can have no more importance than satisfying one's own curiosity. "

Okay.

"Happy, on the other hand, has been an exemplary member, extreme only in her knowledge, yet, people repeatedly question her participation in this forum because they see her as NB, as though that makes her unqualified, or it is the sum total of who she is."

Happyhindu's view, since the beginning reflected the so-called "anti-othrodox" view in which she regarded men learned in vedanta from the non-western view, as those who merely repeating an orthodox view. In that she didn't consider the primary view point which has been relevant and in connection to the vedas for a long time. I have read both views with understanding of the nuances due to the era and political environment they were made in.

To insist that vedanta was unrelated to the veda samhitas, or that the veda samhitas are a work on war, and killings isn't exactly what others who have read the vedas through their life have said. That interpretation however, gives the DK/DMK , and anti-brahmists a treat in potraying brahmins as belligerent oppressors. The treat it gives may very well be due to what they had suffered under brahmins through casteism etc. But it still eludes the way the vedas were read, interpretted for years.

It is on this basis that I questioned Happyhindu's ideas. In the political sphere, in all of this demonization of brahmins, the contributions brahmins did to society is ignored completely and the other upper castes seemed to have become absolved instantly making casteism a "Brahmins against the Rest" kind of an issue. It isn't.

On knowing she was a NB, I confess that it reflected in my head the same mode of debate as self-professed brahmin-haters did earlier with me - they intentionally discard the traditional method/meaning of vedanta (which is not through "Masters in Arts, History"). This is why I asked about the DK movement to her.

***

Right now ShivKC and Happyhindu are having hostile points of views in the other thread. This doesn't reflect us as being united, neither as a Tamil community, not Indians. But I can understand from where both their hostilities come from - its commonplace due to what has happened down history and in politics. Only recently my friend (also a Tamil brahmin) spoke sympathatically about the situation of Sri Lankan Tamils. I told him nonchalantly that that our own (the two of us) "cultural home" didn't accept us actually because of what has happened - it doesn't matter if my mother felt Tamil language was her life (a quote she would say in Tamil), or if we had sympathies with the horror other Tamils were facing. Institutionally, by quotas etc, we have been exiled as punishment for casteism while other upper castes who practiced it too are not targetted.

I am unaware if what Raghy tells "There are many small temples in many villages or small towns with Brahmin priests. Almost in all cases, NBs support the Brahmin priest and their family. Even in my village, now there are over 1,000 NB families where as there are only 5 brahmin families. In all the time in memory, NBs would come to help the brahmin familes even witthout a formal request; at the same time, NBs seldom would interfere with the brahmin families." - because I haven't stayed in TN society.

But history is testimony to the fact that even TBs have in instances fought against casteism. When I went there for a brief stay I was as good as I could be to any other human, I couldn't notice brahmins nor non-brahmins being hostile. But that may be because I didn't visit village people or because my stay was short.

The bottomline however is, DMK and like parties have taken the advantage to revile against brahmins only so that they could enjoy a position of power. Casteism continues in villages - it is the very structure of our society too in some form. Either workers are not payed wages, or made to slog etc. It doesn't start or end with brahmins. What is happening is brahmin hating, which is not the same as hating or fighting casteism or sal discrimination. People will continue to look at brahmins in bad light, because they tend to be exclusivist - as Raghy's quote itself gives hint. Its not a good trend for brahmins, nor for the society they are part of.

This is the reason I think the community needs to come out of its shell and start a revolution against casteism - a point I've repeated. For any community tradition is meaningless to follow blindly because it too was put in place by some people of the past - like us, so we too are in a position to question and change it accordingly if it comes against the major goals we need to have in today's world. Today, relevant challenges are to provide education (technical and otherwise) to children and youth, to form the structure of our society, the growth of the nation etc. It should not come from either mimicking another country/culture, nor from completely ignoring everyone else and being staunch in stagnating. We should discern for ourselves.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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@ Nara - Forget the "brahmin certificiate"

Nara, be free and tell us specific cases where you have felt discriminated. Do you vie for the tag of becoming a "brahmin" or want brahmins accept you as one of them? If so, why?

Shri Vivek Sir,

I find from old posts that Shri Nara was/is? a very staunch Sri vaishnava brahmin (by birth also), but has now become an atheist and admits that. so your query is not relevant.

As for the "seven lives" claim, I wonder how one can find out who their parents were in the "past life" were, let alone seven lives hehe. You can say that mockingly to those who speak thus.
I think he is referring to seven previous generations here- the pitrus.


People who claim excess pride from being of so and so lineage are only covering the bruises of having accomplished little themselves.
The prevalent mindset here in many members is that "i am a brahmin, becasue my parents are brahmins. i am great therefore." it is purely psychology and unwillingness to entertain any opposite views. "l am brahmin, i hold such-and-such views and those are the correct ones." to me this thinking is just like what parents feel for their children, "this is my son/daughter. he/she is good. any one who says anything bad about him/her is bad and lying". it is good to see this also as a comical entertainment!!
 
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@ Nara - Forget the "brahmin certificiate"

........ other hand the complain is that brahmins don't accept others into their fold. My first question is why would anyone want to be accepted thus?

[...]

I wouldn't want others to become brahmins and earn respect, I would like them of their own communities to come up and earn respect in their name.
Vivek, Those who criticize Brahminism do so for what it is, not to, as you put it, "become Brahmins and earn respect". I reject Brahminism because it espouses a supremacist ideology. Varna/jati system is fundamentally flawed. Take a look at Dr. B.R.Ambedkar's pamphlet titled The Annihilation of Caste. That should give you a good idea where I stand.

Thank you Vivek ...
 
Dear Sri Vivek,

You have done very good analysis of Social issues relating to Tamil Brahmins of today. I come from Coimbatore, I never had the occasion of facing enmity of any kind from other communities because of my Caste during my student days. Not even from my friends who were admirers of Periyar in those days. Yes, there used to be simple jokes on Brahmin Tamil or way of living, just like the ones we hear on Sardarjis today . Nothing more.

With advancement in education and communication, Varnasrama has almost vanished from our social life now. It is my view that Brahmins are the in the lead for change. We are bold enough to come out of many blind beliefs that shackled us in the past. This I have seen from the past, present and future generations of my own family. Our youngsters are better informed than us in many areas and much more adaptable for the requirements of fast changing globalised Brahmin Community.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
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