Pithru tharpanam

[gopalaswamy]

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DURING PERFORMING PITHRU THARPANAM BY BRAHMINSALL OVER INDIA THEY UTTER "GYATHA AGYATHAPITHRUN THARPAYAME" IN THE PITHRU VARGA ASWELLAS MATHRUVARGA THARPANAM. TO ME IT DOES NOT MAKE SENCE.YOU ARE DOING THARPAN TO YOUR FATHER MOTHER HENCE QUESTION OF GYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME DOES NOT ARISE, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT KNOW/OR YOU ARE A ADOPTED SON. THIS THARPANAM IS NOT TO BE DONE AS THINKING YOU KNOW YOUR FATHER YOU ARE USING YOUR FATHERS GHOTHRAM,/NAME NAME ETC AND HENCE DOING THARPANAM AS GYATHA AGYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME IS NOT TO BE DONE UIN PITHRU THARPAN BUT MAY BE PERMITTED TO DO THIS "GYATHA AGYATHA MATHU PITHRUN THARPAYAME " AS YOUR FATHER MAY NAVE BEEN HAVING A SECOND WIFE AND YOU AND YOUR MOTHER IS NOT KNOWING
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[sangom]

DURING PERFORMING PITHRU THARPANAM BY BRAHMINSALL OVER INDIA THEY UTTER "GYATHA AGYATHAPITHRUN THARPAYAME" IN THE PITHRU VARGA ASWELLAS MATHRUVARGA THARPANAM. TO ME IT DOES NOT MAKE SENCE.YOU ARE DOING THARPAN TO YOUR FATHER MOTHER HENCE QUESTION OF GYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME DOES NOT ARISE, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT KNOW/OR YOU ARE A ADOPTED SON. THIS THARPANAM IS NOT TO BE DONE AS THINKING YOU KNOW YOUR FATHER YOU ARE USING YOUR FATHERS GHOTHRAM,/NAME NAME ETC AND HENCE DOING THARPANAM AS GYATHA AGYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME IS NOT TO BE DONE UIN PITHRU THARPAN BUT MAY BE PERMITTED TO DO THIS "GYATHA AGYATHA MATHU PITHRUN THARPAYAME " AS YOUR FATHER MAY NAVE BEEN HAVING A SECOND WIFE AND YOU AND YOUR MOTHER IS NOT KNOWING
plESAE STUDY AND REPLY

Dear Gopalaswamy,

Tarpanam is not only for the three generations for which rik is chanted (for male ancestors) and their names and gotras spelt out, etc., but it is also to satisfy the pitrus about whom we may not know (for example my great grandfather's father or grandfather).

I can give you one real life incident (not mine but of a closely known relative). One very promising boy (only son) became mentally off. Medical treatments did not help much and the boy's life went off the rails. An astrloger, after doing what we in Kerala call "prasna" divined that there has been one death of a brahmachari in one of the previous generations and while the share of assets due to that person were being enjoyed by this family, no rites were ever done for the welfare of that brahmachari's soul; hence this indication of displeasure. When this divination was made the family concerned ruled out any such thing but my mother said it was true. But since our advise would have been brushed aside by the elders there, we kept quiet. That boy is now pretty old, lives off the interest from his father's savings without doing anything. Luckily his abnormality is not a nuisance to others.

Hence ஞாதாஜ்ஞாத பித்ரு is as important as ஞாதபித்ரு and we should do that tarpanam also.

 

[gopalaswamy]

pithru tharpan

Dear Sr Sangam , Regards, Your comments 1st para is very reasonable and accetableand accordinglyone must do Gyatha Agyatha pithru/Mathupitru tharpan, provided that the such tharpan is for(-)4th earlier generation. is there such thing in our sasthras and if you can enlighten me on that through by any quote of the sasthra verses .Ca nyou pls tell me whrere i/in which book I can find it,
how ever I than you for your clarification
regards
s.gopalaswamy

 

[kgopalan]

Dear sir.,
I have studied in one book that first lord brahma had written that every month one srardham must be done for pithrus, and they have to call 30 ancesters for the srardham .
Many rishis objected to this and requested Brahma in kali yuga brahmins can do only thila tharpanam each month and only they can call three ancesters and for others we can put gyatha and agyatha pithrus for other ancesters and lord Brahma has agreed to this. now as I am in london now I can show you the book chapter and page no. to you after 3 months when I will be in my home . ,What Mr. sangam sir has said is correct.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sr Sangam , Regards, Your comments 1st para is very reasonable and accetableand accordinglyone must do Gyatha Agyatha pithru/Mathupitru tharpan, provided that the such tharpan is for(-)4th earlier generation. is there such thing in our sasthras and if you can enlighten me on that through by any quote of the sasthra verses .Ca nyou pls tell me whrere i/in which book I can find it,
how ever I than you for your clarification
regards
s.gopalaswamy

Dear Shri Gopalaswamy,

Your doubt is not clear to me especially the reference to "(-4) earlier generation". Do you mean to say that tarpanam for the 3 earlier generations? Anyway my reply is given below:


Since you seem to be having some doubts about the need for propitiating more than three generations of pitr^s, I may state that a firm believer in the doctrines of karma, punarjanma and karma-vipaaka may find it difficult to reconcile those doctrines with the belief that by offering balls of rice to his three deceased paternal ancestors, a man will be able to bring gratification to the souls of the latter. Such basic doubts existed even in those times. But it will become a very long post if I have to deal with all that.

You are apparently not one with such basic doubt about the need for Sraaddha itself, I suppose. The pitr^s, in theory are infinite in number going backwards till the beginning of one's gotra. But considering practicalities , we have taken only (as per Apastamba's gr^hyasutra as well as those of some others) the three generations preceding the person concerned. FYI, some Maharashtrian brahmins perform tarpanam (and also Pindam, I am not sure about this point but) for 7 generations.

Since you have asked for references, in SAtAtapa smr^ti twelve groups or divisions of pitr^s are mentioned viz., piNDabhAjaH (3), lEpabhAjaH(3), nAndeemukhas(3), and aSrumukhas(3). The Matsyapurana says that 'ancestors from the fourth (i.e., father, grandfather and great-grandfather of the performer) are entitled only to the wipings of the articles of food (sticking to the hand of the SrAddha performer); the father, the grandfather and great-grandfather are entitled to piNDa; the offerer of the piNDa is the seventh; thus "sapiNDa" relationship extends to 7 generations and this has been followed by almost (I suppose) all the smr^tis.

The mArkaNDeya and brahma puranas state that the lepabhAja pitr^s are entitled to enjoy the wipings (lepa) of the hand of the performer when he offers the piNDas.

Hence, if once we believe in the tarpanam and sraddha rites, it is better to follow the prescribed rules.

 

[wrongan]

DURING PERFORMING PITHRU THARPANAM BY BRAHMINSALL OVER INDIA THEY UTTER "GYATHA AGYATHAPITHRUN THARPAYAME" IN THE PITHRU VARGA ASWELLAS MATHRUVARGA THARPANAM. TO ME IT DOES NOT MAKE SENCE.YOU ARE DOING THARPAN TO YOUR FATHER MOTHER HENCE QUESTION OF GYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME DOES NOT ARISE, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT KNOW/OR YOU ARE A ADOPTED SON. THIS THARPANAM IS NOT TO BE DONE AS THINKING YOU KNOW YOUR FATHER YOU ARE USING YOUR FATHERS GHOTHRAM,/NAME NAME ETC AND HENCE DOING THARPANAM AS GYATHA AGYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME IS NOT TO BE DONE UIN PITHRU THARPAN BUT MAY BE PERMITTED TO DO THIS "GYATHA AGYATHA MATHU PITHRUN THARPAYAME " AS YOUR FATHER MAY NAVE BEEN HAVING A SECOND WIFE AND YOU AND YOUR MOTHER IS NOT KNOWING
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In Sankara TV sriman. Seshadri natha sastrigal give explanations to Question on Dharmasastras.
He is Ex.Principal Madras Sanscrit college.He is considered the authority on Dharmasastras.
On one of the episodes I happened to watch ;He has told that the basic principle of Srardham is
showing Gratitude to our pithrus.In our ancesteral root there may be brahmacharis.Akala mruthyus
deserters lunacrats about whom we may not keep history.They are are also born to our forefathers.
To them we call agnatha pithru.Necessarily there need not be some such persons in every family
Eventhough we prepare company bills with every care at the bottom we include E&OE. Just like that
this is a general class.

 

[sangom]

DURING PERFORMING PITHRU THARPANAM BY BRAHMINSALL OVER INDIA THEY UTTER "GYATHA AGYATHAPITHRUN THARPAYAME" IN THE PITHRU VARGA ASWELLAS MATHRUVARGA THARPANAM. TO ME IT DOES NOT MAKE SENCE.YOU ARE DOING THARPAN TO YOUR FATHER MOTHER HENCE QUESTION OF GYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME DOES NOT ARISE, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT KNOW/OR YOU ARE A ADOPTED SON. THIS THARPANAM IS NOT TO BE DONE AS THINKING YOU KNOW YOUR FATHER YOU ARE USING YOUR FATHERS GHOTHRAM,/NAME NAME ETC AND HENCE DOING THARPANAM AS GYATHA AGYATHA PITHRUN THARPAYAME IS NOT TO BE DONE UIN PITHRU THARPAN BUT MAY BE PERMITTED TO DO THIS "GYATHA AGYATHA MATHU PITHRUN THARPAYAME " AS YOUR FATHER MAY NAVE BEEN HAVING A SECOND WIFE AND YOU AND YOUR MOTHER IS NOT KNOWING
plESAE STUDY AND REPLY

Dear Shri Gopalaswamy,

I did not answer the point contained in the highlighted (by me) portion of your above post. In the whole exercise of tarpanam, illicit relations do not enter into the picture and the "tilam and water"எள்ளும் தண்ணீரும் is offered only to the legal ancestors. However, when we come to Sraaddham, especially Apastamba paddhati (I don't know about others-Samaveda Sraaddha does not appear to include this AFAIK) there is a mantra like this:

yan mE mAtA pralulObhA bhavantyananuvratA |....

The meaning of this is, "if my mother has, out of infatuation, slept with someone, as a result of which I was born, you SwadhA, please select my biological father (rEtaH pitA) and convey this offering to him so that it does not go waste."

Here also, it is only the father's status (similarly grandfather and great grandfather also come) which is very punctiliously, and not about the father's other sexual partners. By deduction the offsprings' (from the secret second wife) sraaddha oblations will go to the father in question. Ours was a male-centric religion.

 

[girishsai]

Ok, the greatest authority answers this in Deivathin Kural:

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

 

[sangom]

Ok, the greatest authority answers this in Deivathin Kural:

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

Shri Girishsai,

The topic is not about whether Tarpanam should be done or not, but in regard to some details about it, if you will see the posts. The link you give does not serve the purpose.

 

[girishsai]

Yes, wrong chapter. I will find the right one and post it.