Make Carnatic Music accessible to all

[vgane]

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T.M.Krishna has underscored the need for Carnatic music to be non elitist; OK Brahmins are taking to it in large numbers, but why create a divide; I do not agree that women are not getting the male accompanists..May be that was about 50 years back but no more..Is Carnatic music plain music..There is so much devotion and Bhakthi involved! If other communities show interest who is stopping them..

Carnatic music?s successful ? can take tough questions now: T M Krishna - The Times of India

 

[SANDHYAV]

needs a strong political support and grants...

 

[vgane]

needs a strong political support and grants...

Did Western Music get political support and grants?

 

[krish44]

vganeji
you have stirred the hornets nest.
carnatic music has always been the private preserve of tamil brahmins.
they take to it like as if it is kumbakonam degree coffee.
girl children are{ or atleast were] pushed into it to increase their value in marriage market
music and devotion to god and bhakthi are intricately mixed up in this music form. most compositions are in praise of hindu gods and goddesses.mostly because I think because the composions of music trinity was in praise of gods and in telugu and some in kannada[ purandaradasa?]
tamil carnatic music could not be popularised much. some non -brahmins are in the forefront in this. perhaps the dravidian movement can put up with it.
it is difficult for many to appreciate carnatic music unlke film music. it takes a lot to cultivate an interest.
after the age of 25 yrs, I happened to live in hyderabad for a few years with someone who was mad about it[ he used to play on his tape recorder for7to 8 hours a day]. I was forced to hear the same. after initially hating it to the core, I was able to come to terms with it and even appreciate it. now I visit chennai every winter and go to sabhas for a couple of weeks. I personally prefer the lighter forms -ghazals,thumri and some devotional both hindu and muslim sufi. I like jugalbandhis south and north styles. I also fancy saxophone- kadiri style.
this discrimination in music women singers and accompanists not getting a chance in sabhas. I do not understand.I thought top singers in carnatic music were ladies.. At least in dance ,they are prominent and do not have any competition. . I think brahmins do not relish the success of their ladies. one ,husband of a prominent singer even committed suicide recently .
every profession has its practices which are undesirable.there are also some like T M Krishna talking about elitism and discrimination.music is only for appreciation and not thinking of the muck there.I would like to close my eyes to these things and enjoy my music.

 

[renuka]

vganeji
you have stirred the hornets nest.
carnatic music has always been the private preserve of tamil brahmins.
they take to it like as if it is kumbakonam degree coffee.
.

Dear Krish ji,

I would like to know how Carnatic Music became the private preserve of TBs cos I was always under the impression that in ancient times Musician Caste was a separate caste on their own and they did not belong to the Brahmin Varna..so how did TBs get into CM??

 

[vgane]

Dear Krish ji,

I would like to know how Carnatic Music became the private preserve of TBs cos I was always under the impression that in ancient times Musician Caste was a separate caste on their own and they did not belong to the Brahmin Varna..so how did TBs get into CM??

Yes, Madam..The Isai vellalars promoted Carnatic music..But as the Isai vellalars were engulfed by the Dravidian movement, they said Bye Bye to Carnatic and embraced politics aka Kalaignar M.K

In the initial years there were hardly any Brahmin women performers in Carnatic Music..I think it was Smt D.K Pattammal a Tam brahm who along with Smt M.S who is from Isai Vellalar community and Smt M.L.V with mixed parentage were the 3 important persons who brought women to the center stage in Carnatic music

 

[krish44]

dear renukaji
The musicians you are referring to ,are temple musicians,nadaswaarm etc and accompanying artists giving support to devadasis performing in temples.This class of people exist.but dancing in temple has disappeared. now even bharathnatyam can trace its origin to sadir a dance form adapted to elite brahmin class. When and how brahmins moved into singing in carnatic music I do not know. Some knowledgeable southies can
enlighten. RRji passion is carnatic music. Why not ask her.?

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Renuka,Sanskrit, Carnatic Music, literature have always been the preserve of the TBs. Only carnatic dance was taken up by the TBs after the devadasi system was abolished.All the carnatic music songs were/have been composed by the South Brahmins. After the fall of the Brahmin empire, the Brahmins have preserved the culture & traditions intact right through the generations!! Other members can add here, to my knowledge, I don’t think NBs were involved in Carnatic music anytime in the historic past. For eg, Ravana is the originator of Veena as per our texts. Because Sanskrit is our true mother tongue, the Brahmin Tamil is 80% sanskritized. For eg, the Telugus settled in Tamil Nadu speak a Tamil with many Telugu words. So no race will ever forget their mother tongue, it continues in their dialect in some form or other !!Other than Carnatic music, the rest of the music/traditions were preserved by NBs. On a side note, there is NOTHING called Dravidian languages as all the south languages including the Sinhala language are highly sanskritised. Only true Dravidian language is the one spoken by the Aborginals in Australia, this is totally untouched by any intermixing to this date. That’s why it sounds like Tamil/Telugu/Kannada etc…Cheers,

 

[Vaagmi]

Music is like a computer application software. It has two sets of people involved. One is the programmer who thinks up the algorithms and logical frame and writes it down. Shall we call this a kind of meta-data? There is another set of people who use this application and carry out a lot of transactions. So we have here the programmer and the user. The user is not a common rikshadriver you meet in the street. He is sufficiently well informed about what the programme can do for him and knows how to enjoy using it.

Now coming to Carnatic Music. We have people who have it in their genes to understand the metadata of CM. They cultivate it further by practice. These people are there in all communities. There are those like me who know just sufficiently enough of good music to appreciate a good performance. They also know when something is delivered badly.

There is no use the later group complaining about the former group. If the former group is adept in understanding the metadata well, is able to instantaneously visualise the entire algorithm and appreciate when a brick here is taken away and replaced with another one, when a beautiful gondola is built from which there are creepers with flowers hanging and dancing, let them be. I, belonging to the later group has the ability not to lose myself in too much of technicality, the ability to enjoy the output as a wholesome offer, the ability to spontaneously shed tears when the underlying bhava is explicitly brought out as a beauty etc. etc., The former in his cold and methodical assaying of the music may miss many things which I enjoy. So there is nothing superior or inferior among these two groups.

Now coming to a community dominating the music, it is all political buncum which deserves to be dismissed with contempt.

 

[sarang]

One of the trustees of the well respected PSG educational trust said that large scale success and entry of brahmins in IT is an expression of their revenge against reservation and oppression. Entry into other fields can also be attributed to the same. As in IT, others may also enter and dominate other fields if they want to. Why blame brahmins for this?

In fact, brahmins are supposed to learn all vidyas and teach others, for minimum financial gain. Since those ideals are no longer in vogue, there is no surprise.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Krish ji,

I would like to know how Carnatic Music became the private preserve of TBs cos I was always under the impression that in ancient times Musician Caste was a separate caste on their own and they did not belong to the Brahmin Varna..so how did TBs get into CM??

Music was once considered a distraction in spiritual pursuit and so was looked down upon by brahmins who had their eyes set on moksha. But these are days of irresistible attractions in this world. So Brahmins had to change perforce. When they found the events overtaking them they did what best they could do-they made these arts like music and dance tools of exquisite spiritual performances. They methodically shaved off the overtly sringara part of music and dance and made it more spiritually oriented to make it palatable to the community at large. It was distraction voluntarily accepted in a defeat at the hands of marching times.

That is why you find sringara rasam still played out as Atma's longing for sayujyam with Eashwar. That is the reason why the entire set of compositions that are sung in kutcheris are all songs in praise of God. Brahmins are smart people. They bend with time to survive and live another day. They do not stand and break and disappear. LOL.

 

[renuka]

Because Sanskrit is our true mother tongue, the Brahmin Tamil is 80% sanskritized.,

80%?? Isnt that too high a percentage?

The compulsory Thayir Sadam sounds 100% Tamil.

In fact the Malay Language has so many Sanskrit words.

Yogurt/Curd is called Dadih in Malay...similar to Sanskrit Dadhi

But in TB Tamil..it is still called Thayir.

 

[ashwin_ash]

80%?? Isnt that too high a percentage?

The compulsory Thayir Sadam sounds 100% Tamil.

In fact the Malay Language has so many Sanskrit words.

Yogurt/Curd is called Dadih in Malay...similar to Sanskrit Dadhi

But in TB Tamil..it is still called Thayir.

Many of the people in this thread are totally wrong on many counts. You are right, the Saiva Pillais did set the benchmark for Carnatic music. T Brindha and T Muktha were among the finest exponents of the Dhanammal style of music. And yes, Brahmins also contributed to Carnatic music, but some of the earliest exponents such as Kanchipuram Naina Pillai, Dakshinamoorthy Pillai etc were not Brahmins! TM Krishna is seeking cheap publicity (he should have done this during DMK rule), he is a Brahmin in the mold of Kamal Hassan and the late lyricist Vaali (Rangarajan).

And the Dravidian movement was mostly Telugu, tamilians used it simply to climb the ladder. Now the castes such as Balija Naidus and Telugu Chettis are classified as "forward castes", these were the castes which started the "Dravidian" movement (Ramadoss has clearly said the movement failed because Dalits were excluded, and the DK and all its offshoots are fake).

Malayalam uses plenty of Sanskrit words. "Brahmin" tamil has all but vanished, except for some subsects who still call yogurt rice as "thainjam monjam" etc and use words as "sathamadhu rasamadhu beefadhu muttonadhu" etc.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Carnatic music field was mostly, (note mostly) dominated by brahmins. Two the trinity of Carnatic music, Saint Thyagaraja and

Shyama Sasthri were Telugu brahmins; hence composed mostly in their mother tongue and Muthuswami Dhikshitar was a Tambram

and composed mostly in Sanskrit. All of them are from learned families.

As I always write in forum, a rose plant needs careful nurturing where as some other plants grow on their own! Carnatic music

is so chaste that learning it properly needs lots of concentration and 'kElvi jnAnam' along with God's grace!

You can find that singing 'dappAngkooththu' songs are much easier than singing 'melody numbers' in film music.

There are many leading artists from non brahmin communities also. Many Muslims are excellent Nadaswaram players. :thumb:

 

[Raji Ram]

Jon B. Higgins was the excellent example of how a devoted learning will make a good Carnatic singer even from the West.

Here is his song for sample:

Endaro Mahanu Bhavulu - Sri Ragam - Jon Higgins

 

[Raji Ram]

Jon Borthwick Higgins (September 18, 1939 – December 7, 1984), also known in India as Higgins Bhagavatar, was an

American musician, scholar and teacher known principally for his rare skill as a non-Indian in the field of Carnatic music.

He lived much of his student and professional life at Wesleyan University.

Source: Wikipedia and Google images.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Renu,

Carnatic music field was mostly, (note mostly) dominated by brahmins. Two the trinity of Carnatic music, Saint Thyagaraja and

Shyama Sasthri were Telugu brahmins; hence composed mostly in their mother tongue and Muthuswami Dhikshitar was a Tambram

and composed mostly in Sanskrit. All of them are from learned families.

As I always write in forum, a rose plant needs careful nurturing where as some other plants grow on their own! Carnatic music

is so chaste that learning it properly needs lots of concentration and 'kElvi jnAnam' along with God's grace!

You can find that singing 'dappAngkooththu' songs are much easier than singing 'melody numbers' in film music.

There are many leading artists from non brahmin communities also. Many Muslims are excellent Nadaswaram players. :thumb:

No. Even before the trinity, there were exponents of Carnatic music such as Sadasiva Brahmendra (Manasa Sancharare, Brahma Mukundeti, etc), and Sridhar Ayyaval, whose caste was basically not fully proven. Sadasiva Brahmendra was an Avadhoota advaitin whose caste was unknown (he did serve as pontiff of Kanchi mutt for a while).

To add more, Swathi Thirunal Rama Varma was a Nair. Iriyimman Thampi was not Brahmin, and the present day Prince Rama Varma who is considered today's expert, is not Brahmin either. All their compositions are sheer melody..

 

[krish44]

This 'Kelvi gyanam'-Passing music down thru guru shishya parampara and hearing from masters than writing with musical notations and passing musical knowledge thru books is considered to be a great draw back in carnatic music leading to its not spreading to all and also preventing orchestration .this is unlike classical western music where beethovan etc are performed by orchestra.. in carnatic music you have only a few accompanists who often do not measure upto the talents of vocalists,we have various gharanas in hindusthani classical each following their own style of singing such as Kirana, patiala etc. depending to the gharana ,the styles of singing varies. wit times ,Ithink a formal system based on books should evolve for easier understanding and learning. Guruji what do you think

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Krish Sir,

Carnatic music gives full freedom to the artists to show their creativity and have their OWN style of singing. Have you

heard of different schools of Carnatic music. (We always fight that our master is the greatest... That is a different story!)
Listen to this youngster Abhishek Raghuram how he treats the tiny ragam Behag in a awesome way! :clap2:

Abhishek Raghuram-Ithuthano Thillai

 

[ashwin_ash]

This 'Kelvi gyanam'-Passing music down thru guru shishya parampara and hearing from masters than writing with musical notations and passing musical knowledge thru books is considered to be a great draw back in carnatic music leading to its not spreading to all and also preventing orchestration .this is unlike classical western music where beethovan etc are performed by orchestra.. in carnatic music you have only a few accompanists who often do not measure upto the talents of vocalists,we have various gharanas in hindusthani classical each following their own style of singing such as Kirana, patiala etc. depending to the gharana ,the styles of singing varies. wit times ,Ithink a formal system based on books should evolve for easier understanding and learning. Guruji what do you think

You are trying to say Carnatic and Hindustani are like Ghulam Kadhar and Gokulashtami. Carnatic has 'banis' in the mold of 'gharanas'. Dhanammal bani, Kanchipuram bani, Ariyakudi bani, Harikesanallur bani etc. Chembai Vaidyanatha Iyer didn't follow any 'bani' but had his own style. His main focus was 'neraval'. Similarly Palghat Mani Iyer's mridangam speciality was his 'thani avarthanam'.

 

[Raji Ram]

We can listen to some samples from a carnatic concert and feedbacks from people of the West ( 4m 11s onwards ).

Sound of Southern Breeze - A Tribute to Jon B Higgins (Video Clipping Including Audience Feedback)

 

[krish44]

ash
since I did not know the expression "pani" in tamil used in carnatic ,i used the word gharana I am familiar with . so as to convey that guru shishya style of learning brings in peculiarities in various styles of singing.this nothing like a reference text with notation put down. muchof the compositions have simply vanished over the years and some are not sung as they are not fashionable anymore. also they are hardly any good archives for students of music. besides it is hardly an attractive profession.except the leaders,others cannot make a decent living. it could be a hobby for many with time and interest.

 

[ashwin_ash]

ash
since I did not know the expression "pani" in tamil used in carnatic ,i used the word gharana I am familiar with . so as to convey that guru shishya style of learning brings in peculiarities in various styles of singing.this nothing like a reference text with notation put down. muchof the compositions have simply vanished over the years and some are not sung as they are not fashionable anymore. also they are hardly any good archives for students of music. besides it is hardly an attractive profession.except the leaders,others cannot make a decent living. it could be a hobby for many with time and interest.

For me, it is not even a hobby. I have nothing to do with Carnatic or Hindustani. I follow music just as a minor curiosity, it is fascinating to see sound 'twisted' and made into musical notes. Muthuswami Dikshitar wrote the 'nottuswarams' in Irish Celtic style to please the British masters. The evolution of music is fascinating, caste or no caste.

 

[krish44]

Dear Krish Sir,

Carnatic music gives full freedom to the artists to show their creativity and have their OWN style of singing. Have you

heard of different schools of Carnatic music. (We always fight that our master is the greatest... That is a different story!)
Listen to this youngster Abhishek Raghuram how he treats the tiny ragam Behag in a awesome way! :clap2:

Abhishek Raghuram-Ithuthano Thillai

sorry ,I used the expression gharana instead of pani or schools of music. I think in a different language because of my upbringing.hence inability to communicate. music and melody have no language barriers of course. .I agree more creativety with different styles and schools. which a person with music in his genes only can appreciate.in modern times it is difficult to fiollow the guru - shisya parampara and go thru rigorous training at the foot of the masters. it is only class room lectures and modern aids .so the rules of learning should change so that it reaches more easily

 

[Raji Ram]

This is a composition of Saint Thyagaraja:

Vara Leela Gaana Lola