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Let us 'test' astrology/astrologers !!!

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S/Sri vikrama,kgopalan,

thank you for your response.

I am in the process of shifting residence, and find some problems in my internet connectivity. Hence kindly excuse me for a couple of days by when I shall catch up with your posts and put in my views, as early as possible.
I am sorry for the same.


By this I appeal to moderators also that ,I am not leaving the thread I started,and will be on the follow up as soon as possible.



Greetings.
 
Dear honourable members of this forum,


I thank you for the various responses in this thread. I am happy to see that there are many members with varying degrees of knowledge in astrology.

I take it as their modesty, when they claim they are just novices, student, etc.

In the past, traditional education was a package of Sanskit,Ayurvedam & Jyotisham. So many of our grand parents, or great grandparents were having fair amount of knowledge or expertise in all the three. At that time they were an accepted part of daily life.

During my childhood I was witness to these. Eventhough my father was educated in English medium, he had a fair amount of background knowledge in Jyotisham and Ayurvedam. I used to listen to the discussion my father and uncle had between them or with others in these matters.

It was some picked up points from these conversations which induced my interest in these topics. Bu as like most latter-day generation boys, I did not have any traditional education ,but the Macaulay system only.
A few incidents in my personal life made me believe in astrology to that extent.

1. My father himself hinted his death indirectly in one of his talk with another relative.(When the relative, while taking leave, told that he will meet my father on a particular period, when he has some plans to come again.My father in a thoughtful mood, remarked that he may have to compulsorily come a bit earlier. I noted this in mind then,as earlier also uncle and father discussed about this period,dasa apahara etc. So subsequently when I got an intimation that father is slightly ill, -recalling the above, I rushed home- I could talk to my father, who lovingly reprimanded me for taking leave from job and coming home for such a small matter. But, next day, father expired. I could give him the Ganga Jal, I had taken with me under advice of one of my elder relatives. It was the prediction based on astrology that I could reach and be at the bedside, when my father peacefully breathed last.

Another was in a similar way death of my uncle , who categorically predicted he will not be alive beyond a certain date.

Still another was on my first job, which a local astrologer predicted on my father asking him.It was the same astrologer who cast my horoscope after my birth. Then I sent the base columns (chart) to a famous Panchangam company, and requested them to rectify the chart for any mistakes and then predict.

There were no differences with the prior one except one or two positions in the navaamsakam. But predictions were almost matching ,in essence.

As a student of science, and having once worked in a premier scientific research establishment, the critical side crops up, and hence to satisfy myself also, I need the 'scientific test'.

The faith in astrology and the flat denial of it is very much creating confusion, and many follow without any faith, but just for ritual or show that they abide by convention.

It is to dispel this confusing situation , that I suggested the 'test' in the thread. If at least a few prominent points can be predicted beyond doubt and in uniform way, then the research oriented experts can work further and codify things to be acceptable in a universal way.

It is true that there are myriad permutation and combination. But there will be some basic concepts which can work well.

If at least the members of this forum itself take up this , at least an academic exercise,sincerely to find truth, that will be a beginning.

In that direction I welcome the suggestion of Sri kgoplan, and seek views of other members.

The attempt may be taken in proper spirit, and not to be used to belittle anyone or anything.

If is positive, then we have got a treasure. If ultimately it becomes just a time-pass, let us be ready to disregard it and not to make it interfere in our lives.


Greetings.
 
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Dear Shri Suryakasyapa,

I am in complete support of this experiment and would welcome those members who are proficient in astrology to participate in this.

I have one more suggestion. If any member can and wishes to, he may have the predictions from professional astrologer/s from outside also and present it here. If you agree this will give us more inputs. Hope this finds acceptance.
 
only god can predict with certainty all the time.only one god is living right now with us.and he lives in bhu-loka.samastha loka sukhino bhavanthu.

as an amateur jyotishi,i have more prediction in their timings gong wrong,but eventually happen.so,as far as possible,i am stopping to read jyotisham,but i known i am an addict.but then each and every day/night has a graham nominated,globally.in that sense all of us are addicts of jyotisham.
 
Sri nachi naga,

Our attempt is not to be Super God. or to question on belief in God. it is first by accepting that humans have certain limitations , we go forward.

The aim is that human intellect has found many different methods and systems to foretell his status of health and happiness, to make his life more comfortable. It can be foretelling and warning of weather, availability of water, success in a new venture etc etc

Astrology is also one such method sought and prevalent to foretell or at least indicate , so that suitable adjustments or possible amendments can be attempted to make life better and comfortable. It is the success or reliability that is to be verified for finding acceptability.

I do not have any difference regarding suggestion by Sri Sangom.Any idea which can decently get to our aim is welcome. After all our attempt is not to berate anybody or wound anyone's belief. It is only an attempt in a broader way to find 'whethet this medicine can cure my illness"- that is all.

Greetings
 
chi. sk,

jyotisham is an angam of vedas.the angam is nethra.so drik ganitham is established from the time of vedas.the books are lost.the oral transmission has become weak.its kali yugam.this is prophesied.

as far checking the veracity of a astrologer,i think some universities are offering jyotisham vidya in curricula.i think we also has swaminatha sharma doing yeoman service during swayamvaram meets.its a tradition,somewhat mixed with astronomy.it works,thats the bottom line.moreover its faith based.its part of our religion.so,i accept it,after questioning it myself and arriving at satisfactory results.works for me.i am sure it works for many people too.
 
Dear Sri SuryaKasyapa Ji,

Sorry for this delayed response on your clarion call on astrology.

I was responding to Sri Brahmanyan Ji Sir, above and I mentioned about Magic.

I have seen close friends of mine, who time and again, got affected by 'Rahu Kalam' observance in real life and saw many who did not know this concept not affected at all. So, from an anecdotal pov, I think that believing in something may have an effect on the humans.

In my mind, astrology falls within the same category. I know the current stae of Science and I do not think that today's science is enough advanced to explain certain 'abnormal' observations. Like, for example, about many instances of children who remembered their past lives. These are usually dismissed as the children being fed stories.

If one believes in Karma theory and rebirth, then I do not understand why they would not believe in the vedic astrology. Parsara had the divine guidance.

Let us not waste time in trying to prove to modern science why our astrology works. Let us challenge the modern science to prove why it does not work. All the 'proofs' against astrology I have seen are based on Western Astrology, and I have not yet seen a systematic study by anyone to challenge the Parsara's time predictive discipline, based on the 120 year cycle of Dasas.

Unless this predictive aspect of vedic astrology is systematically analyzed by Science from an empirical pov, then they can not claim that this discipline is bogus.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

.... I do not think that today's science is enough advanced to explain certain 'abnormal' observations.

Science is not an entity with certain capabilities to do certain things. It is more a process, a process that tries to explain the world around us as best as possible. The process includes such things as, but not limited to, observation, data gathering, analysis, et al. It is indeed true that there are many unexplained phenomena that scientists are working on. But, when it comes to the claims of Astrology of any kind, there is enough scientific tools and processes available to study its claims. The people who make these claims have the obligation to use these scientific tools and establish scientific validity of Astrology.

Unless this predictive aspect of vedic astrology is systematically analyzed by Science from an empirical pov, then they can not claim that this discipline is bogus.
If claims of validity are made without proof, then those claims are indeed bogus. The burden of proof for a claim rests on those who make the claim, not others. Individuals work on what interests them, and if they are smart and fortunate enough to make new discoveries that can be verified and repeated, then such discoveries get recognized as valid knowledge. Often scientists start with a hunch, or pet theory, and work on proving those theories. Sometimes even after a life time of work they may not be able to establish their theory. But, they do not get to claim that his/her theory is valid, and let someone else prove it, and until that time my theory must not be rejected as bogus. That wouldn't be science.

When it comes to the question of what "science" is, there is this problem of demarcation. There is no clear line that separates everything neatly into two groups, "science" and "non-science". The nature of science is such that there is no universally recognized accrediting body that gets to make this classification for all. Anybody can claim anything as science. Homeopathy is one such. Their own theory makes some of their remedies impossible to even prepare. But they blissfully claim it is science. The funny thing is, things that are really science get recognized as science by its very nature without the person having to make a claim to science!

Cheers!

p.s. Wish you get well soon...
 
Dear Sri SuryaKasyapa Ji,

Let us not waste time in trying to prove to modern science why our astrology works. Let us challenge the modern science to prove why it does not work. All the 'proofs' against astrology I have seen are based on Western Astrology, and I have not yet seen a systematic study by anyone to challenge the Parsara's time predictive discipline, based on the 120 year cycle of Dasas.

Unless this predictive aspect of vedic astrology is systematically analyzed by Science from an empirical pov, then they can not claim that this discipline is bogus.


Regards,
KRS

(in the above quote emphasis is mine)

Sri KRS,
Thanks for your post.

Please refer back the emphsised portion. at least to achieve that, we need demo and proof. So either to prove that astrology works, or that astrology works where science does not... also needs convincing demonstration, acceptable in general.

It very well goes with my own line of thought in the thread.

Having thus far come, let us go further.

As Sri kgopalan suggested let us take up a specimen (in real -and not a teaser one).Let it be handled by different astrologers amteurs as well as professionals.

From the birth details, (or even the birth chart) let them proceed in their own way and give answers to the selected universal questions.
As suggested: Education, job, marriage, children, chances of own vehicle, house ,probable luck and lottery, prize etc, health and probable major diseases , life span.

We may first select the common accepted parameters from the opinion of forum members.

Then a specimen chart( should be voluntary as one's own or with consent of the jataka).The actual identity need not be disclosed in public if it be so.

The actual answers related to the jataka to be kept separately and to be shared in the forum after the predictions given by participants are made.

Then the forum members can themselves verify the results.
If at least there are some unity in the predictions by different individuals , that itself will propel further studies and analysis.

It should be taken in the right spirit only and it is not the aim to despise or ridicule someone.

This is my view at this time. It may be improved or amended as per forum discussion. Let us move further while the tempo remains, and sustains.



Greetings.
 
...Then a specimen chart( should be voluntary as one's own or with consent of the jataka).The actual identity need not be disclosed in public if it be so.
Since Shri Gopalan has given the names for the two h/s, do you think identity has been compromised?
 
Sri Sangom,

If the chart is from his own immediate family and does not involve question of privacy, only the identification of names may not influence , as the chances of participants knowing the jataka may be relatively very less, as the forum members are at different places. Moreover let us take for granted, the sincereity and un biasedness of the participating members.

But for better discretion , it is preferable not to disclose identity till the verification/ comparison is over.
 
Dear Professor,
My response is in 'blue'.

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!



Science is not an entity with certain capabilities to do certain things. It is more a process, a process that tries to explain the world around us as best as possible. The process includes such things as, but not limited to, observation, data gathering, analysis, et al. It is indeed true that there are many unexplained phenomena that scientists are working on. But, when it comes to the claims of Astrology of any kind, there is enough scientific tools and processes available to study its claims. The people who make these claims have the obligation to use these scientific tools and establish scientific validity of Astrology.
Professor, I understand what science is, having been practicing it myself. I have never claimed that Astrology is a science, in the sense of science in modern times. I have said that astrology is an art, practiced based on various postulates, but based on the actual movements of the physical planets around the zodiac, which now part of science. These complex postulates, when applied by a skilled and gifted person seem to work. My experience (I have said I am self trained and not gifted) with this discipline is that it works amazingly well at the empirical level. If some folks are claiming astrology to be a science, then I agree with you. But again, to my knowledge, there is no systematic study of the results from predictions done with the most renowned vedic astrologers. If such a study is undertaken, I am sure it will be found that there is a strong correlation between the predictions and the outcomes.

If claims of validity are made without proof, then those claims are indeed bogus. The burden of proof for a claim rests on those who make the claim, not others. Individuals work on what interests them, and if they are smart and fortunate enough to make new discoveries that can be verified and repeated, then such discoveries get recognized as valid knowledge. Often scientists start with a hunch, or pet theory, and work on proving those theories. Sometimes even after a life time of work they may not be able to establish their theory. But, they do not get to claim that his/her theory is valid, and let someone else prove it, and until that time my theory must not be rejected as bogus. That wouldn't be science.
Again, I am not calling astrology as science in the modern sense. But to me, what is valid is what works. I don't know why it works, but it does! It is definitely not random, as I have seen and experienced the results from applying this discipline.

When it comes to the question of what "science" is, there is this problem of demarcation. There is no clear line that separates everything neatly into two groups, "science" and "non-science". The nature of science is such that there is no universally recognized accrediting body that gets to make this classification for all. Anybody can claim anything as science. Homeopathy is one such. Their own theory makes some of their remedies impossible to even prepare. But they blissfully claim it is science. The funny thing is, things that are really science get recognized as science by its very nature without the person having to make a claim to science!
I think that this confusion arises, because from ancient times, certain disciplines were followed without understanding why something works and this knowledge is now completely lost. Most of our Hindu tradition followed the oral tradition and as you say quite often, the Brahmins horded the knowledge - hence the analytical part is lost and only the empirical part remains. I think that people who do not understand the rigorous proofing mechanism demanded by modern science call any discipline followed as 'science'. In this agree with you.

Cheers!

p.s. Wish you get well soon...
Thanks, I am getting much better.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Professor,

Dear Shir KRS, we know each other well enough now. I am a professor by profession, no more. I am part of the working class, a member of the proletariat if you will. I realize you are showing me sincere respect, which I appreciate, whether or not I deserve it. But, it would give me great pleasure if you would address me as a friend would address me, just Nara. :) :)

which now part of science. These complex postulates, when applied by a skilled and gifted person seem to work.
This is the point where we get into conflict. I realize you have great faith in Astrology, the vedic kind, as you put it. Another respectful person like you who believes in Astrology is Shri Sangom, for whom I have great respect, just like I do towards you. But, "seem to work" is only a hypothesis.

This hypothesis can be easily tested. There is enough resources to spare. The Brahmnical matams who swear by this "art" have enormous resources and yet don't see a need to advance real knowledge in this field. The BJP government saw it fit to introduce Astrology into the field of academia, but apparently did not bother to push for rigorous investigation of the authenticity of this "knowledge".

When I see that validity can be verified, but no attempt is made in that direction, is being skeptical unjustified?

In this respect, the efforts of Suryakasyapa is to be appreciated. However, for this effort to hold water, it needs to be designed in a more scientific manner.

Cheers!
 
... However, for this effort to hold water, it needs to be designed in a more scientific manner.

Cheers!
Shri Nara,

Please enlighten what changes are needed to make this attempt more scientific so that, if feasible within the limitations of this forum, those changes can be followed.
 
Dear friend Nara Ji,

We seem to be opposite in our philosophical outlooks. I say 'seem to be' with a measure on my part being uncertain towards my own degree of scholorship as opposed to yours, and to which I have given credit by calling you as Professor, which to me is the highest form of respect. But then, when someone asks me to be friend of theirs, I can not but accommodate that request, as I feel that a friendship is the highest form of a universal human connection. My response below in 'blue'.

Dear Shir KRS, we know each other well enough now. I am a professor by profession, no more. I am part of the working class, a member of the proletariat if you will. I realize you are showing me sincere respect, which I appreciate, whether or not I deserve it. But, it would give me great pleasure if you would address me as a friend would address me, just Nara. :) :)

This is the point where we get into conflict. I realize you have great faith in Astrology, the vedic kind, as you put it. Another respectful person like you who believes in Astrology is Shri Sangom, for whom I have great respect, just like I do towards you. But, "seem to work" is only a hypothesis.
Yes, I agree. That is why I said that it is not yet tested.

This hypothesis can be easily tested. There is enough resources to spare. The Brahmnical matams who swear by this "art" have enormous resources and yet don't see a need to advance real knowledge in this field. The BJP government saw it fit to introduce Astrology into the field of academia, but apparently did not bother to push for rigorous investigation of the authenticity of this "knowledge".
Actually, I don't know what is to be gained by testing the validity of vedic astrology predictions in the realm of modern science. There are numerous folks like me who believe in this discipline and it is a belief, and what can be gained by proving that the modern science thinks that this is validated as an empherical discipline?

When I see that validity can be verified, but no attempt is made in that direction, is being skeptical unjustified?
No, skepticism is always justified. But my point is that no one has undertaken a systematic study of this descipline like Paul Brunton did about the validity of Yoga in the past.

In this respect, the efforts of Suryakasyapa is to be appreciated. However, for this effort to hold water, it needs to be designed in a more scientific manner.
I agree. But then, it is all about making the non believers to be the believers. Since no one can explain why it works, it becomes a moot point.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Mr. SuryaKasyapa,

Thank you for inviting me to reply to your thread. But I am hardly qualified to do so.

Though a staunch believer of Astrology, I also believe that we must be ready to face things, happenings and situations as they arise!

One should be neither frightened by the astrological predictions nor become over confident and careless.

I know of one incident from my close family circle where the astrologer predicted a serious accident to the head of the household.

The person lived in constant fear for years - avoiding all possible dangerous situations. Yet when he traveled by a night bus, another bus collided with the one he was traveling in.

Believe it or not, the only person who got injured in that terrible accident was the gentleman I am referring to.

All his precautions and fear were totally wasted. He survived the accident and lives with a few permanent after effects.

So when knowing the future does not help to avoid the unpleasant, at least we can live in peace until we really have to worry!

with warm regards,
Mrs.V.R.
 
In this respect, the efforts of Suryakasyapa is to be appreciated. However, for this effort to hold water, it needs to be designed in a more scientific manner.

Cheers!

Sri Nara,
Your suggestions to make it designed in a more scientific manner are welcome.

Greetings
 
Dear Mr. SuryaKasyapa,

Thank you for inviting me to reply to your thread. But I am hardly qualified to do so.
....................................................................................................
............................... precautions and fear were totally wasted. He survived the accident and lives with a few permanent after effects.

So when knowing the future does not help to avoid the unpleasant, at least we can live in peace until we really have to worry!

with warm regards,
Mrs.V.R.

Smt V.R ,

Thanks for your response.

While I appreciate your modesty in saying you are not 'qualified' in discussing the topic, I may say that if only experts and qualified only have to participate, then the progress and percolation of any matter will be restricted.

The un'qualified' can contribute at least by asking questions and getting their doubts cleared,thereby helping others also. Any layman will have his own native wisdom, which many times are paractical wisdom.

During the BP oil spill crisis, I read that the ultimate solution, originated from a phone call by a local plumber (He was not a "qualified' engineer.).

Many years ago ,when I broke the news of introduction of Television, to my grand mother who was not formally educated( she never went to school)- her comment was that"I know from puranas that "Aakaasam' is "Shabdabhedi"-that is sky can transmit sound- but the transmission of images, can you find the relevant base in purana?

I was stunned by her knowledge and interest.In fact she used to ask me to tell her about the progress on the Television transmission and reception.

So anybody can be of help in positive contribution , which leads to further improvement.

Then, regarding the inevitable happening as predicted....that itself validates the need for further study and analysis. Can't the astrologer beat his chest saying that he is proved.? Or if we extend it further, can't some more positive remedies be thought to redress or eliminate the accident? Or is it not by the precaution that the effect was minimised? Many analysis can be made.

I am not forgetting the episode of 'Pareekshit' and Takshaka in this regard.

Many have seen apple falling down But it took one Newton to theorise on gravity.
There may be still more Newtons hiding. Let us begin a small step,
who knows? it may lead to long strides!!

Greetings
 
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Dear Sri SuryaKasyapa Ji,

I think that what you are attempting to do here, while commendable is foolhardy. There are folks out there who do not believe in astrology and I am afraid that by chance we are presented with a horoscope that is beyond the scope of the ability of non professionals, the discipline will be attacked.

Please think through this. I would prefer employing a proven gifted astrologer to contribute here. Otherwise, I am afraid that we may discredit this great discipline.
(in the above quote emphasis is mine)

Sri KRS,
Thanks for your post.

Please refer back the emphsised portion. at least to achieve that, we need demo and proof. So either to prove that astrology works, or that astrology works where science does not... also needs convincing demonstration, acceptable in general.

It very well goes with my own line of thought in the thread.

Having thus far come, let us go further.

As Sri kgopalan suggested let us take up a specimen (in real -and not a teaser one).Let it be handled by different astrologers amteurs as well as professionals.

From the birth details, (or even the birth chart) let them proceed in their own way and give answers to the selected universal questions.
As suggested: Education, job, marriage, children, chances of own vehicle, house ,probable luck and lottery, prize etc, health and probable major diseases , life span.

We may first select the common accepted parameters from the opinion of forum members.

Then a specimen chart( should be voluntary as one's own or with consent of the jataka).The actual identity need not be disclosed in public if it be so.

The actual answers related to the jataka to be kept separately and to be shared in the forum after the predictions given by participants are made.

Then the forum members can themselves verify the results.
If at least there are some unity in the predictions by different individuals , that itself will propel further studies and analysis.

It should be taken in the right spirit only and it is not the aim to despise or ridicule someone.

This is my view at this time. It may be improved or amended as per forum discussion. Let us move further while the tempo remains, and sustains.



Greetings.
 
I agree with Shri KRS that trying to seek unanimity in predictions will not serve the purpose as there are so many unqualified astrologers.

Though I think there is little need to prove the correctness of astrology to those who do not have belief in it, I agree with the suggestion that some systematic study and a logical understanding of what we rely on by faith, would help in making their appeal more universal and more importantly benefit a larger section of people.
 
Dear Mr.SuryaKasyapa,
Astrology is a highly evolved science, no doubt. Only a person who is really trained in it can make accurate predictions. Half the time the astrologers won't reveal the unpleasant and unwelcome predictions.
So knowing is one thing, revealing is quite another. Believing is a third factor involved. That is why there are varied opinions regarding astrology.
i wish you good luck for expanding this thread running into many more pages!
with warm regards,
Mrs.V.R.
 
Dear Mr. SuryaKasyapa,

There is a reference in Mahabharata where images as well as sounds were transmitted by Aakaash (Space).

The whole warfare extending to 18 long days are related to the blind king Dhrutharashtra by Sanjaya. It is more or like our television where we can watch things happening far away.

It is said all the vibrations-thoughts and words-are stilll lingering in the space. If only we can build a siuitable filter, we can listen to the Geethopadesam from Lord's own lips!

Who knows, some day some one may come up with such an invention and recapture the happenings of the past in their original glory!

Mean while we can try to put in the perpetual ethereal circulation, more of purer thoughts and kinder words!

with warm regards,
Mrs.V.R
 
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,
......................................................................
There is a reference in Mahabharata where images as well as sounds were transmitted by Aakaash (Space).

The whole warfare extending to 18 long days are related to the blind king Dhrutharashtra by Sanjaya. It is more or like our television where we can watch things happening far away.............................


Smt V R,

I concur with you here.

Greetings
 
Sri KRS Sri Sravna,

I understand your sincerity and concern on this regard.

May be what I attempt is foolhardy, because of the peculiarity of the subject.

I can understand if we say that patients should be treated by only well qualified expert /specialist doctors. There are established and accepted institutions who follow set norms of curriculum and award certificates of qualification after tests conducted.. There are researched statistics on the veracity of such treatments or medicine. These are all available for anyone or patient. There may be a minority cses of failure, but that may be due to the individual case and circumstance.

It is acceptable if astrology also falls in similar way.

There are many non-believers. But astrology or its varied versions are very popular.

If experts are not coming out to do the certification test, then what can be drawn from that? In our forum we are discussing on many topics whcih are beyond our judgement capacity due to time elapsed , situation changed etc. There are many believers in those matters also. But many times the non-believers or sheer critics discuss and try to score over believers b logic or other ways available in a discussion.
It helps the believers more lesson to be equipped with convincing arguments next time.

But now ,here, it is not the non-believers who initiated the thread. In fact there was a mild request to allow the thread with the basic concept that we should not argue and tell that astrology is hoax, but go with concept that many people believe and go further on that behalf and seek more concrete supporting data acceptable to,in general, so that a basis can be created ,and astrology be given a status like other subjects studied. The attempt was not to simply negate , but to give it a broad coverage if it is worth that.

Professionals are welcome to this.If they take the stage , amateurs may concede the platform to them. But if none comes, then amateurs have to take up the risk for the sheer sincerity and love of the subject. This is only to satisfy ourselves. If even a basic concept is not found, then is it worth all the publicity it gets? As believers we will feellet down , not by amateurs failing in the test, but experts not ready to come to the rscue of believers by doing a reasonable verification test process.

Greetings.
 
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