Let us 'test' astrology/astrologers !!!

[SuryaKasyapa]

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There are many who believe in astrology,and horoscope based predictions/matching-- as also many who reject and oppose astrology.

Still more are the fence sitters,the confused, the 'take-only-favourable"s etc.

There have been a lot of discussion in this TB.Com itself. Still a few threads are having this discussion inter alia during discussing other topics.

Naturally, as for any topic, there were(and are) two or more sides. One supporting the acceptability and credibility of astrology(horoscope based prediction / matching) and the other rejecting it and calling it a hoax. Others may fall somewhere in between this in varying degrees of proximity .

The main reason for this, there are no uniformily verifiable proof on record,well established and indisputable, for anybody to check the veracity .

As many million words were spared in this site itself on this topic, I have a suggestion.

Why can't this site,or the members in a sub group or association take up a task of inviting all those interested /knowing/ practicing astrology ,to a common venue and give each astrologer a uniform set of various horoscopes, and ask them to state about the till date past and their future predictions about the "Jaataka", to occur on a pre-decided intervals of time gap (to enable to ascertain and verify).

A pre- decided set of parameters be given for prediction. The correctness in actual life of the jaataka ,on the "past" parameters should be correctly ascertained and kept in sealed boxes to be compared with answers given by the astrologers for the verification.

The future predictions should be verified by the unbiased panel of judges,with actual recordings of occurences in the individual's life.

This of course needs volunteers to come forward to share their personal matters in public. However, the parameters can be such that most of these will be anyway available in public.

As the statement about past can be immediately verified for their correctness, the viewers /public can have a fair amount of indicative signal if astrology can be accepted at least for a part value of credit it is given by believers.

Any on who is genuinely interested in astrology OR vehemently opposing the same should sincerely act towards this as it will help the many many who are now on either side or on the brink.

The actual modalities,improvements can be brought out by more discussion in this matter.

Greetings


PS: This post was first prepared and posted by me in a discussion in another thread. But,then I felt that it can be discussed as a separate thread. I hope members will give their inputs.. s k

 

[kunjuppu]

surya,

i doubt whether anyone will take up your offer. i am astounded by the number of folks in marriage ads who want astrology porutham (almost 100%).

i think it is a matter of faith here. i cannot comprehend this faith, but appears to be binding. the only way to get out of this bind, is for the youngsters to indulge in 'love marriage'.

long live love marriages.

 

[kgopalan]

I am having faith in astrology; Ican give you horoscopes and I can give you in writing in a seperate sealed cover about them.

 

[kunjuppu]

kgo,

i think surya wants to go a bit further than that.

basically, we should take one case which is well documented for past, pass this to a bunch of astrologers and ask them to predict - past & present.

then compare the results.

if it is scientific, the results should all concur. otherwise... we can come up with reasons for the exceptions and agree on those points of agreement.. atleast it will start a discussion, though it might end up in fist fights

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Unless you are really planning for fist fights you would not do it that way! I do not think you can find an expert astrologer so easily. I think it is still an art than a science. So even if there is an accurate prediction by one astrologer that should be it.

 

[Ramacchandran]

Dear friends

This remembers me one instance Some tw years back, My Guru, Dr.Anantha Bhatt, who is Rahavendra Upasakar, with the help of Sea Shells, and horoscopes, use to tell many things and I was sitting by his side. To a man who came along with his wife, he said your son's health will be in trouble, for a couple of weeks he may be facing some accident but will survive. Please lit a ghee lamp to Rahavendra Mutt for an year. The wife hearing this was shocked as she had two daughters. But the man said he had two daughters alone and no son. But Dr.Bhattnever answered after that.

Next day, when I was taking upadesam on my upassana Moorthy, the same man came before him, and apologize that he spoke a lie day before and he has a second wife which the first wife don't know and asked for remedies.
But Dr.Bhatt ignored him and directed him to come and meet him after a year. (Simultaneously he advised me if you face such kind of situation you are not authorized to look in to the personal life of a person unless he asks for it.) But with in that year My Guru Passed away.

Only few knows about him.

See even if you predict such kind of things entering in personal life of a person what will happen?

Even if a parent see 100% matching will the couple live happily for the entire life?

Life is challenge and we must face it. Horoscope matching also should be only on certain extant. Life is a preplanned one which flows like a flooded river some times and some time it is dry and few time it is pleasant helping the crops to grow and on other two occasions it destroys the crops.

 

[sravna]

From my little knowledge of Astrology and of quantum mechanics I would say I find the theory behind astrology more convincing than that of quantum mechanics. I am definitely not kidding. Of course the predictive ability of quanum mechanics is very high but that in itself says very little about the theory that explains the observations.

Almost everyone on this forum would know of some very startling predictions of astrologer that they know or atleast through hearsay, that have come true. If you look at these they would have a very low probability that they are chance predictions. The problem is we do not have many such qualified or gifted astrologers around. Because of the poorly qualified astrologers the field has earned a bad name and has not got the recognition that it deserves.

 

[Nara]

From my little knowledge of Astrology and of quantum mechanics I would say I find the theory behind astrology more convincing than that of quantum mechanics. I am definitely not kidding. Of course the predictive ability of quanum mechanics is very high but that in itself says very little about the theory that explains the observations.

The mysteries of quantum mechanics are not well understood. The physicists working in this are the first to admit this. Sometime ago, I read a book called QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, by Richard P. Feynman, written for lay people. I did not fully understand it, but the book gives a fascinating look at these mysteries.

However, the discoveries already made in this field are quite repeatable, observable, and precisely measurable by any GA working in this field, all that is needed is the requisite knowledge and being meticulous -- one does not have to be an extraordinary genius in physics. Also, the field is not just standing still, physicists are constantly working to better understand why these counter-intuitive stuff happens.

Contrast these with Astrology. Even mere correlation, not cause and effect, has been scientifically established. Nobody is even remotely interested in working to establish this correlation. No attempt is being made by anyone to expand the scope of knowledge in the field. But, tremendous effort are made by Astrologers to confound the general public with fantastic claims of accuracy, never verified, just believed.

If a gifted Astrologer needs to appear who can show how scientific all of this is, then one has to wait until such an Astrologers shows up and makes a convincing case. Until then, only mere faith can be claimed, where faith is believing in something that ain't so, at least as of now.

Cheers!

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Sri Kunjuppu,

Thank you for explaining what I meant.

In fact unless an effort is made to check the matter, the blind faith and the doubts of credibility will continue to be so.

I am saying that , when we are just going on discussing this matter , why can't we make an attempt, with the co-operation of all who seek to know whether astrology is to be believed or not and if so to what extent?.

It cannot be done by an individual. But can be initiate by a forum/group/association.

There are many public well known experts and practitioners of astrology.There are many amateurs.Equally strong opposers are also there.

If once a start is made, then it can be carried forward for fruitful extent.

Till this day I have not seen anybody volunteering to undertake such an examination/test.

With all sincerity to know the facts, I stand on my suggestion ,and invite all concerned to think and contribute their ideas and suggestions on this matter.

If it is beyond the purview of this forum, I seek the initiative of rationalists and scientific minded people or institutions spearheading scientific critical thoughts to come forward and organise such a venture.


Greetings

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

Please do not use the yardsticks for evaluating a physical theory to something spiritual and that tries to look into a hidden reality. Even if you find an astrologer who fares much better than chance you will have to admit that astrology is well founded.

 

[sankarcs]

Astrology is not just a simple mathematics to calculate and produce the same result to everyone . Computer astrology may produce same wordings in the same order . But it has something more . Whether the Doctors who studied in the same class gives the same set of medicines to a patient? Whether we are going to doctors just we come across or go to a particular doctor alone even waiting for hours ? Why don't we apply the same logic with doctors ?
= sankarcs

 

[Brahmanyan]

Let us 'test' astrology/astrologers !!!

Astrology and astrological predictions have baffled me always. My maternal Uncle and Grand mother were very much involved in the subject of Hindu Astrology. In fact my Uncle used to spend his leisure hours with armature and professional astrologers in discussing astrological predictions and related matters. Personally I do not believe in Astrology as a scientific subject. But wondered how the predictions come true in many cases. For instance I give below an incident that I had witnessed in our house.
Years ago,I happened to meet an young Accounts clerk during my audit work, who exhibited rare talent in astrological predictions, which he told that he learnt from his father. I told about him to my Uncle. My uncle wanted to meet him, and I arranged for the meeting. After initial discussions my uncle gave a copy of a horoscope and asked the youngster to examine the same. After examining the horoscope the youngster predicted one by one on the horoscope holder. First he told about general well being, then relationship with his father, brother etc. But skipped the "Mathrubhava" in the horoscope. After the completion of predictions, my Uncle reminded the youngster to give predictions on "Mathrubhava". The youngster looked into the horoscope again and told clearly that there was no use of telling about the mother who was not alive, since the horoscope holder must have performed obsequies for his mother when he was seven year old. My Uncle hugged the youngster and admitted that his predictions were true. My uncle had given the horoscope of his own son who had lost his mother (my aunt) at the age of seven.

Even now many of my Uncle's predictions have proved to be correct. But the doubt about the subject in my mind has not been cleared.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore

 

[vikrama]

As the saying goes,மந்திரம் கால் மதி முக்கால், astrology is 25% calculation and 75% intuition. Those who can read the thoughts of others well pass for good astrologers.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

As the saying goes,மந்திரம் கால் மதி முக்கால், astrology is 25% calculation and 75% intuition. Those who can read the thoughts of others well pass for good astrologers.

Sri Vikrama,

From the above, I am not able to understand your view. Are you saying that astrology is 75% perfect and 25% compromise ? Or 75% hoodo-voodoo and only 25% science.

I ,for one, am ready to accept astrology 100% if it is established 75%.25% allowance can be given.

Personally I also have some faith in astrology,that is from personal experience and individual faith.But the faith can be cemented if it is established beyond doubt, and in uniform way by all who follow or practice that. If one or two fail, then it can be taken as individual failure,and not the system. Once established, its fundamental basis,and common universal modalities,rules,guidelines tested at least for the basic level, it can be brought to the curriculum, as it will be beneficial to mankind in knowing future earlier. Just like a medical test indicates illness at early stages itself.

Though drawing a beautiful picture is artistic talent, drawing a rectangle, circle etc to given specification is science and maths. Any one following the rules of a rectangle and using the scale properly can draw a correct rectangle. More practice can bring perfection, that is all. Any viewer can recognise it as a rectangle, and verify by measuring sides if i conforms to given specification and correct. So if astrology has its rules and laws , the result should be same with different astrologers if the input is same.

I wonder why someone is not volunteering/has not volunteered for the verification and establishment of facts?( Not just limited to this forum ,but in the outside world also) Does that itself indicate the answer to the contention?

 

[shivani.itsmehere]

A genuine request. Need URGENT advice..! Please guide.
Namaskar to all,
I am a new member here.I do job and i raised my voice against two corrupt people at my workplace in May month.These two ppl r now troubling me through their dirty politics.they have even projected a wrong picture of mine before everyone including my boss.I am planning to tell the entire true story to my boss(at present she is out of station) before leaving the job.Is it a right decision?What shud i do?I am in great depression regarding my career as im not able to find a new job also at present.Plz guide.
My details are as follows:
DOB-20.11.1977
PLACE-Gorakhpur(Uttar pardesh-India)
TIME-20:58

From a sister

 

[shivani.itsmehere]

A genuine request. Need URGENT advice..! Please guide.
Namaskar to all,
I am a new member here.I do job and i raised my voice against two corrupt people at my workplace in May month.These two ppl r now troubling me through their dirty politics.they have even projected a wrong picture of mine before everyone including my boss.I am planning to tell the entire true story to my boss(at present she is out of station) before leaving the job.Is it a right decision?What shud i do?I am in great depression regarding my career as im not able to find a new job also at present.Plz guide.
My details are as follows:
DOB-20.11.1977
PLACE-Gorakhpur(Uttar pardesh-India)
TIME-20:58

From a sister

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Brahmanyan Ji, Sir,
I absolutely believe in Vedic Astrology (the one advanced by Parsara and not by others like Jaimini). This is because, I came across a book written by Sri Bangalore Raman when I was idled at home during the anti Hindi agitations in TN, and for a few months I had time in my hands. Since then, for almost 45 years, I have taken up this subject as a hobby.

I am at a stage now, where I can usually with 70% probability predict on various matters (I do not consider myself as any good in predicting mortality and so I do not go there). My various predictions for my friends and close relatives have materialized, so much so, that I have some very close relatives as my 'clients'.

I consider myself as a pedestrian astrologer - even after all these years of practicing it as a hobby, I still need to consult with Professor Raman' books, just to make sure that I am on the right track.

Astrology, to me is an empirical art/science. It is art because, like medicine, it forces the practitioner to make choices among myriad of variables. It is Science because, the art is based on the actual physical positions of various planets at one's birth. I used to be a Physicist, and this question about whether Astrology is valid used to vex me. But I am at a place, where due to my long time practice of it, I am very comfortable in saying that it works and I do not know why.

People who criticize this ancient treasure passed down to us by our forefathers out of a sentiment to give us tools to understand life, don't know the Truth. They are only looking at the modern day science and judging the Vedic Astrology negatively. The main problem with them is that they do not believe in any 'magic'.

Problem is, Science is still evolving and can not explain all 'magic'. I will side with modern science and agree that there is no 'magic', when all phenomenon that can not be explained by modern science today are explained. Till that time (I suspect that time will ever arrive, because we are all part of a closed system and one can not 'see' the whole system being a part of it, unlike an external observer), I won't call myself a rationalist, I am just a spec of humanity in the universe, which seems to have an authorship, And I call that author - 'God'.

Astrology and astrological predictions have baffled me always. My maternal Uncle and Grand mother were very much involved in the subject of Hindu Astrology. In fact my Uncle used to spend his leisure hours with armature and professional astrologers in discussing astrological predictions and related matters. Personally I do not believe in Astrology as a scientific subject. But wondered how the predictions come true in many cases. For instance I give below an incident that I had witnessed in our house.
Years ago,I happened to meet an young Accounts clerk during my audit work, who exhibited rare talent in astrological predictions, which he told that he learnt from his father. I told about him to my Uncle. My uncle wanted to meet him, and I arranged for the meeting. After initial discussions my uncle gave a copy of a horoscope and asked the youngster to examine the same. After examining the horoscope the youngster predicted one by one on the horoscope holder. First he told about general well being, then relationship with his father, brother etc. But skipped the "Mathrubhava" in the horoscope. After the completion of predictions, my Uncle reminded the youngster to give predictions on "Mathrubhava". The youngster looked into the horoscope again and told clearly that there was no use of telling about the mother who was not alive, since the horoscope holder must have performed obsequies for his mother when he was seven year old. My Uncle hugged the youngster and admitted that his predictions were true. My uncle had given the horoscope of his own son who had lost his mother (my aunt) at the age of seven.

Even now many of my Uncle's predictions have proved to be correct. But the doubt about the subject in my mind has not been cleared.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore

Regards,
KRS

 

[nachi naga]

i have been hobby asyrologer,palmist,numerologist never ventured reading for others,though some relatives of mine claim my accuracy.i tell them its fluke,only god can predict and have faith in prayer.usually i will direct people to dieties for worship and guide towards guru or temple worship.pancha-angam is our sanathana dharma tool or almanac as the west calls it.from nakshatra based we evolved to rashi based being incorporated.higher harmonics or vargas give extremely accurate focus in ones life.personally dr.b.v.raman is numero uno for me and i also think his ayanamsha is far accurate than lahiri ji's,though the difference between the two is almost negligible.

 

[sravna]

I have strong interests in astrology though very much a student. I have come up with a set of rules for predicting the timing of an event. I give it here for the scrutiny of all.

I look at the concerned house with respect to an aspect, say marriage in either the rasi or the shastiamsa and the relevant divisional chart say navamsa in this case.

The event will occur during the periods of:

a. divisional chart for marriage, say

1. navamsa lagna lord, 7th lord
2. karaka for marriage
3. planets in the navamsa lagna, 7th house
4. the above planets being the nakshatra lords
5. lagna lord aspecting lagna and 7th lord aspecting 7th house and strong implies their bhulkthi is also favored
6. planets conjoining 1. and 2.

The strongest of the above and their dispositors.

Similarly for rasi/shastiamsa. The strongest in it and their dispositors.

Bhukthi lord and antardasa lord usually have a strong association with the dasa lord in the charts.

The success of the event depends on the malefic/benefic nature of the lords during which the event took place along with their associations

 

[sangom]

I have strong interests in astrology though very much a student. I have come up with a set of rules for predicting the timing of an event. I give it here for the scrutiny of all.

I look at the concerned house with respect to an aspect, say marriage in either the rasi or the shastiamsa and the relevant divisional chart say navamsa in this case.

The event will occur during the periods of:

a. divisional chart for marriage, say

1. navamsa lagna lord, 7th lord
2. karaka for marriage
3. planets in the navamsa lagna, 7th house
4. the above planets being the nakshatra lords
5. lagna lord aspecting lagna and 7th lord aspecting 7th house and strong implies their bhulkthi is also favored
6. planets conjoining 1. and 2.

The strongest of the above and their dispositors.

Similarly for rasi/shastiamsa. The strongest in it and their dispositors.

Bhukthi lord and antardasa lord usually have a strong association with the dasa lord in the charts.

The success of the event depends on the malefic/benefic nature of the lords during which the event took place along with their associations

Shri Sravna,

My knowledge of astrology is rudimentary. Still I am writing my doubts for clariification.

According to what you write, there are possiblities of all the seven or nine grahas coming for consideration. Since rahu & ketu are not considered for determination of planetary strength, if these two chAyagrAhas come into consideration, how should one go about?

Secondly, the determination of planetary strength involves lot of calculations AFAIK. With computer programmes it has become easy now, but can you tell how the astrologers of say 20 or 30 years would have assessed the planetary strengths correctly?

 

[Brahmanyan]

Let us 'test' astrology/astrologers !!!

Dear Sri KRS.,

Astrology is a fascinating subject. I am happy to know your interest in this ancient subject. I do agree that the subject involves "myriads of variables" and predictions on astronomical positions and changes are accurate. But to me, whose knowledge of the subject is zero, the predictions on ones life's fortunes and future still baffles.

Yes, Prof.B.V.Raman has done a lot of research on the subject of astrology, and brought out a number of books. Incidentally my daughter in law's family is closely known to Prof.B.V.Raman. With out Prof. Raman's (now his daughter's ) approval no marriage or other important religious function take place in their family.

Many thanks for your valued opinion on this important subject.
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

You are right. Almost all the planets will come into the picture. But one that occurs more often I reckon should carry the energy of that aspect more and hence would be indicate that event during its period.

You don't have the shadbala strengths for Rahu and Ketu as you do for other planets. But indicators such as kendra/trine placement, lordship, yogas and other associations give us their benefic/malefic disposition

Calculating the strengths as you say is tedious. So it should have taken quite some manual effort in the past in arriving at such results

 

[sankarcs]

A genuine request. Need URGENT advice..! Please guide.
Namaskar to all,
I am a new member here.I do job and i raised my voice against two corrupt people at my workplace in May month.These two ppl r now troubling me through their dirty politics.they have even projected a wrong picture of mine before everyone including my boss.I am planning to tell the entire true story to my boss(at present she is out of station) before leaving the job.Is it a right decision?What shud i do?I am in great depression regarding my career as im not able to find a new job also at present.Plz guide.
My details are as follows:
DOB-20.11.1977
PLACE-Gorakhpur(Uttar pardesh-India)
TIME-20:58

From a sister

Will you please send the details to my email-id which I have sent through a private message to you

 

[vikrama]

Sri Vikrama,

From the above, I am not able to understand your view. Are you saying that astrology is 75% perfect and 25% compromise ? Or 75% hoodo-voodoo and only 25% science.

Sri Suryakasyapa,
I studied astrology for sometime in my youth and made a name as a good predictor among close relatives and close friends. On deeper study, I found that the rules are not universally applicable. There are always exceptions and the exceptions outnumber the rules. Once my prediction fails, I can say why it failed, but I was not always successful in predicting. So I discontinued my study and I have now almost forgotten it.

While following the same text, different astrologers predict differently and the one whose prediction comes true makes a loud noise, 'I foretold it already'. The others keep a low profile. There are other occasions when these also get a chance to boast themselves of. I have noticed several occasions when Sri B.V.Raman's predictions have failed.

In 1975, I went to a 'Arul Vakku Jothidar'. His appearance and manners did not impress me. But I was astonished when he laid bare all the details about myself and my family. He did not ask for my horoscope but mentioned the planetary positions. It led me to study about thought- reading techniques and I discontinued practicing it, due to certain reasons.

So my present position is - astrological calculations roughly point out (to the extent of 25%) about our lives and it is the intuitive power of the astrologer that makes up the shortage. But no astrologer can predict 100% correctly for all. So I welcome the suggestion that the efficacy of the subject should be tested scientifically.

For a more detailed explanation, please see my blog ?ா??ி ??ி?்?ொ?ி: ?ோ?ி??் ??ை ???்

 

[kgopalan]

hello to all, Here i am giving D.O.B.8-6-1975;T>O>B> 7-05pm, P.O.B. chennai, Name Renganathan; D.O.B.23-4-1981,T.O.B.1-29PM;P.O.B.Madurai.Name;Vedavalli; Kindly write horoscope according to vakkiyapanchangam and according to driganitha panchangam and predict about their chilhood;siblings;parents; education;carrier;marriage; marriage life; children,separately genderwise and panchangamwise.


I will send their actual life, leading by them till now to sri. surya kashyap sir and you all kindly send your predictions to surya kashyap sir; this is only to find out predictions according to vakkya panchangam /driganitha panchangam and actual life. in future which one we can take for predictions.