Integration with the rest of the Tamil Tribes

[kunjuppu]

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i think it is all a state of mind.

i think, broadly speaking, there are various levels of dealing with a society that you live - alienation, acclimatization, acculturization, integration and assimilation.

alienation - i think, all of us, will have no problem agreeing what it is.

acclimatization - my experience of immediate landing in canada, and the first 5 years. ie getting used to the weather, culture and politics, and not feeling any sense of conflict. that is the personal me.

acculturization - me now. after 37 years of living in canada, perfectly comfortable with the culture, food, weather and politics. i will never be a 'canadian' in the breast thumping sense. part of me is always in india.

integration - my children in canada. they are canadians. identify with everything here, very comfortably. feeling of belonging and participating, ability to fend of the label of 'immigrant' and above all, finding a distinct identity from the americans.

assimilation - maybe two generations from now in my family? i don't know.

this is my family. others may have it different. the same can be considered for any one of us, wherever we live. also, what we should take into consideration, that there is no one preferred status. it is what we are comfortable with.

in my own, poor and unorganized way, if i should extrapolate what i intended in this thread re integration of tamil brahmins with other tamil tribes:

i do not believe in 'the separate but equal' philosophy. this usually is a code word for discrimination. which is why, i feel strongly, for the panchamars, whom i would rather claim to belong to us, than to the muslims or christians.

to me inclusiveness of hindus, especially tamil hindus, as a one clan, only divided by tribes, based on traditions developed because of where they lived and not based on the edicts on manu.

in this context, i have felt that the tamil brahmins are now not quite integrated with the tamil society. i also believe it was not so before.

many reasons for this, and it is not within the scope of this post to review that.

but, if we recognize an issue and accept that it exists, and we align to discuss solutions, as to where we would like to go, then can discuss the path to the destination.

one way to deal with this issue of 'integration', is to simply shove everything under the carpet, and claim that we are fully integrated; the problem of accepting our integrated status, is with the other tamil tribes.

another, i think, somewhat moderately prevalent view, is what i sense here, and i may be wrong. it is again an extension of the live and let live philosophy. ie each tribe has its own place in this society, and the tamil brahmins accordingly. it is just that for various reasons, that this status quo has been disrupted, and we would all be fine, if we can revert.

unfortunately, time only moves forward. we have discounted the speed with which changes have come to our society, especially in communications and imparting of knowledge, philosophies and ideas.

it is often said, that the seeds of the american war of independence was planted in the french revolution.

the influence of islam or christianity, is far more potent, due to the spread of ideas of absolute equality before God. there can be no stratified preferences, and in no way, can this be reflected in a religious practice of current day.

not only has human dignity to be etched in the scriptures, but has to be seen to be put in practice. no excuses. proletyzation is of the mind and unless we have the tools to fend off such attacks, we are under threat. i always believe that offence is a very good defence. even better, a great deterrence.

while others may view apathy towards our traditions with concern, i view it as doing less harm, than in some of the recent movements which proclaim to 'restore' our ancient hindu glory through rabble rousing propaganda. to me that is the most dangerous threat to the survival of tamil brahmins, and we should in no way succumb to these extreme viewpoints.

another concern, is the steadily declining numbers in tamil nadu. those of us, outside of the state or country, i think, would be wise to remember, that without the strong root of our bloodline in tamil nadu, along with it the wide trunk of societal support of a healthy thriving aalamaram, we do not have the shade to bask under its spread.

without the strong thriving integrated base in tamil nadu, we are akin to those dried up distressed cattle, trying to find shade under the acacia trees of the kalahari desert.

we would be like the sindhis, recognized as indians, but stateless regardless. one feels sorry or pity for such kind, i think.

the bottom line is the declining population numbers in tamil nadu for tamil brahmins. from what i suspect, there are indeed a large number of bachelors, vainly waiting for their promised brides. the promises came from their parents, who are unable to keep up the promise.

what i suggested, was that folks like these, remove yet another layer of the lens of prejudice, and view some of the other groups, with a view to adopting daughters and enriching our fold.

after all, gone are the days, when we had thriving and bustling households filled with kids and who provided a steady stream of marriageable lads and lassies, when their time came and who filled the creaky cars of mappiLLai azhaippus.

nowadays, in the past few weddings in chennai within my family, i could count with my fingers the numbers of children. but of the geriatric crowds, i lost count.

inspite of ourselves, things will evolve. at some point, the impatient TB bachelor in tamil nadu, will give up on his parents, and take matters into his own hands to satisfy his urge to mate and set up home. whom he choses, will decide on the future of our community in tamil nadu.

below, i refreshingly digress in this somewhat longwinded post...
lastly, the position of a community within a society: the jews are classical examples of acculturization. they are part of the western society but never integrated there. israel is where their heart lies.

the muslims of today, i think, will atleast for the forseeable future, will be alienated in the western cultures where they live.

the hindus, by and large, will move acculturization to assimilation in their new western homelands.

thank you.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Kunjuppu has really pricked every one's conscience here, with this master piece writing.. He cornered every one (including me) with his finest articulation and knowledge..

Who else can have such a wild helter skelter thoughts,with a finely chosen words like 'acculturization',(you missed appropriation here),or talk of topics like 'French Revolution roots, Equality before God, sweeping all egos under the carpet to claim open 'Tamil Integration', threat of conversions,using intentional typo like 'aalamaram' in a typical tamil style,with a touch of ' mappiLLai azhaippus' to drive the point of marriage integration,historical learning from Jews, and contently concluding it with the theme " acculturization to assimilation"...

Must have read ten times this post.. Very thoughtful!! Yes, he stressed the right point, 'The importance of Tamil tribe, intergration', interesting, without refering any of OUR posts, but touched (pricked) each one of us here.

That post, definitely carried a touch of RK.Narayan, Shashi Tharoor, Jug Suraya,David Davidar,BBC's Mark Tully,Swaminoics Swaminathan,Arundathi Roy,Rushdie, The hindu columnist V.Gangadhar(my school days fav, n dad's fav too),N.Ram,Vinod Mehta, Ian Wright Lonely planet...

You touched all of them.. Wish you were a columnist!! If not still you can try it, and make a fortune out of it ..An exception, you still dont follow that post office red colour cover, book called 'Wren & martin"..

The best post, I came across, in the last 3 months..worth publishing it.. With your permission, Im moving this to my blog,with due courtesy and guarentee of acknowledgement ..

 

[kunjuppu]

sapr,

as i have said before, you are too kind.

i have no copyright or ownerhship interests, as none of my posts are originals. these are just snippets put together, on the spur of the moment, and without any prep work.

having learned too well from that famous school, ie the one of hard knocks, my only wish is not to create rancour and disharmony among the members. to my dismay, i may end up doing just that sometimes, inspite of myself!

otherwise, i find this forum interesting enough to visit a few times a day, and type a few lines, in topics of my interest.

i find, of late, with the absence of extreme right wing propaganda, and with the inculcation of new members and 'coming back to life' of some veterans, this place has moved on to higher standards, and incidentally, also become a source of enjoyment.

personally, i find all posts here worthy of mention. many of them even more so, and these are the ones far above my comprehension. so much eruditon here.

also thanks to krs for the great governance work. and praveen for a smacking new almost edible website

thank you for your kind words again.

 

[kunjuppu]

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=hub200609eat_drink.asp

i refer the public to the above article on meena kandasamy in tehelka.

meena is among the army of dalit intellectuals - young, energetic, enthusiastic and with an unsuppressed curiostiy and energy to right wrongs.

what dismays me is her ever so often digs at brahmins.

and what dismays me even more, is that she may be justified. i have had conversations with a few bloggers from all ends of the spectrum, and the prevailing view, is that our youngsters, atleast the ones that are eloquent, reflect the worst aspects of brahminism.

in the same breath, these dalit folks claim about having close brahmin friends, who are nothing like the caricatured andhaNans.

there is no right or wrong here. just perceptions. perceptions, to our detriment.

what can we do, to correct this.

it is noteworthy, that muslims and christians do not have this problem. in fact, the smarter ones, have managed to deflect any negative attitudes towards them to brahmins, or people purporting to be brahmins.

... and then there are the wood brained diehards of our own community, who successfully cut their noses to spite the community's face.

it is very important, i feel, that our public relations effort as a community, must swing with full speed and effort. for the truth is we are marginalized in tamil nadu right now. tomorrow, we may face a pogrom.

the signs are there.....

 

[happyhindu]

tomorrow, we may face a pogrom.
the signs are there.....

Sir,

i heard ltte cadres were anti-brahmin bcoz they are classified as the so-called 'low-caste' by what they saw as, a group that had no business in their ancient culture, but deemed itself the authority to assign varnas.

the signs were already present, but were managed well.

i really do admire jayendra swami, for his ability to reach out to all strata of the tamils easily. if not for swamis who interact with 'low-castes' like he did, public opinion may have been more different..

sir, i think the best way to go about it is to not call or treat anyone as 'low-caste', and not claim superiority of practices (if there is any such stance), since each has and likes his own way of doing things.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Kunjuppu,

This integration should happen from both the ends.. The onus lies on both B's and NB"s.. Thats why I first narrated an awareness theme,that, without this integration, both will become loosers in this moden world. Still, rules of the game remain the same..'You need two to tango'.

Yes, non-hindu's do not have much problem with this integration..If you have watched this years Oscar live, AR.Rahman did a master stroke by speaking in TAMIL 'Ellam Iraivanukke'.. With that he won the hearts of 80MnTamils, and erased out the arabic suspicious tint/alienations,generally perceived upon moslem community.(btw, we do have an Dravidian party MLA in T.N, who's mother tongue is Arabic). In normal terms, an average muslim would have said "Insha Allah', like how westerners say, "Thank God'.

APJ Kalam,makes it a point to talk few lines in TAMIL, in all his Presidential address in parliament. These were all the master strokes done by those sect's heads,which helped effectively to integrate with the Tamil tribes.

These are all the simple lip services by few personalities,but it matters a lot, for the community,as a whole..

Christians:-Missionaries are the first one to compose a Tamil dictionary and promote 'Prinited' Tamil Literature in books.Bible was the first mass printed book in Tamil. St.Josephs trichy set up an insitution called 'Kalai Cauvery' to promote religion through Tamil arts (Iyal-Isai-Nadagam)..Every diocease(district size) had its own tamil cultural development centre..

Marvari/Gujrati's : I was told that, they are the highest donors for any local functions!!! They integrate that way..

Imagine, what a nice good-will earning opportunity it would be, if Mr.Cho got to title his program 'As Enge Thamilan?' instead of 'Enge Brahmanan'....JJ' TV's TRP rating would have shot an all time high!.Unfortunately, Cho was only 'licking the wounds' instead of 'fighting for a real cause'.

Having said that, Nothing compares to the early,millenia old contribution of TB's to the great tamil literature.. Some one told me, if not for TB's documentation skills, our generation would not have any thing to know about ancient tamil literature. TB's are the one's who preserved this literature and handed down to us (not Kazhagams). The works of U.V.Swaminatha Iyer, which we used to call as 'Thamizh Thatha' in primary school stand self explanatory to this..

But the only thing, it is the interest that matters here!! ie,understanding the importance of this Integration.. Rest will fall in place, automatically!!

Yes, English education helped to make money,but, integration with English-men, is definitely an impossible one!! Same is the case with Delhi-Hindi too...

 

[sapr333]

Dear HH,

Though this alienation happened due to Anti-Brahminism based on caste lines, the role of lower-varnas were virtually nil in this act.

This issue was first triggered by a Nair from Kerala ( a forward caste, for erswhile Madras Presidency), based upoin his 'socialist views'.It was not against any reservation. Infact, reservation has affected not alone brahmins, but all the 'forward castes too, in an equal way..

But all forward castes, today, got very well got integrated with the mainland. They actively joined politics, and established their presence. Started private enterprises. Non Tamils like Reddys,Naidus or majority of the malayalees very well got integrated. There are few MLA's, who speak Malayalam at home, still they were not seen as out-castes...

Pls ponder over it..

Btw, HH,

I personally thank you for your active participation here.. I know you have some good thoughts to share here... Also, I'm sure we can enjoy the jovial,yet thoughtful posts of Shri.Kunjuppu here.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

i still do think the tamil brahmins are integrated and are integral to the tamil inams or are already tamilians / part of the tamil speaking folk.

when you go to a temple, the priest speaks in tamil, the brahmins speak tamil at home, they are tamil.

the only prob i think is that some brahmins tehmselves consider themselves to be diff from the tamils and vice-versa. In reality, this ideology is mainly pushed by ppl like politicians, even militants like Lttes, who have been creating a scenario that such an integration does not exist. And in this, they are many a time supported amply by ideological writings of missionaries, you may wish to look up newspaper reports of sinhalese hardliners accusing the ceylonese tamils of receiving 'aid' from missionaries in the past.

And why did all this happen? Why did some brahmins consider themselves diff from a tamil and why did some tamils consider themselves diff from brahmins, as a race, as practices...

imho, it all happened because ppl used to call or treat the other person as a low-caste or high-caste. they still do, in rural places, i hear. so there is prefixed basis of who is high or low, by birth.

i do think, once this whole idea of what is high and what is low as a jaati caste occupation disappears, once this idea prevails that all practices are uniform in the eyes of the Lord (the Lord does not differentiate b/w a woman who offers a half-eaten fruit or a brahmin who chants mantras, does He?), all humans are equal to God no matter what occupation s/he professes, then ppl themsleves will find no need to heed to the call of the politcians.

this i think has already taken root, nobody these days considers himself high or low, its sort of passe already, ppl are getting more and more aware, infact how many ppl vote dmk for their idealogy anymore...

 

[sapr333]

Sapr,

In reality, this ideology is mainly pushed by ppl like politicians, even militants like Lttes, who have been creating a scenario that such an integration does not exist. And in this, they are many a time supported amply by ideological writings of missionaries, you may wish to look up newspaper reports of sinhalese hardliners accusing the ceylonese tamils of receiving 'aid' from missionaries in the past.

And why did all this happen? Why did some brahmins consider themselves diff from a tamil and why did some tamils consider themselves diff from brahmins, as a race, as practices...
.

Dear HH, thanks indeed for the prompt response.

There is no second thought, the Catholic Missionaries worked for the 'Liberation of the Tamils' (Not LTTE) from the clutches of lankan oppression.If you have read the news, there was a priest who stayed along with the civilians in the 'No firing zone',and gave up his life, on the last day of the war.Yes, they do it, because, their core ideology,esp,the Jesuits is 'Liberation'. The entire Church run schools were shut for a day, to voice the concern for the plights of innocent Tamil-civilians..

Now, the point what we should drive/learn here is...Will any tamilian call a Christian as an alien? The sangparivar/even the american voters, always had a doubt with Catholics about theirl oyality to vatican. Parivar tried to paint Christianity/Islam/Parsi as a foreign religions.But a lesson to be learned here is, they all really well got integrated to TAMIL TRIBES,without any second thought.Esp, the support which Christians gave for the Tamil cause in srilanka, had always earned them a good will amongst Tamil tribes. In this same context, Shri.Kujuppu rightly said earlier " Lankan issue, we missed a great opportunity to earn the goodwill'..

Now, calling LTTE as terrorism (keeping in mind my selfish,rather narrow minded thought on this, I admit), I have a few questions.. Who defined the word Terrorism!! Is it Tamils/Indians?...Just because Bush wanted Bomb Iraq, you also wanna equate 'The cause of Tamils' in line with Talibans? If I may ask, can we call Nethaji as terrorist? Vanchi Nathan Iyer killed British collector Ash Durai in the same way, like many LTTE cadres did..., Are you going to call him a terrorist (or) honour him for his fights towards the cause of liberating the Indians from the clutches of Brits.

Now some one who wishes to 'Prove his intelligence' may rush to prove me wrong, and may go on explaining 'Terrorism' in details.. But some one who is really interested in the social/cause & integration, may accept it as a politically correct statement, and try to achieve his Objective, and utilize this situation...

Here, TB's failed to capitalise on this good opportunity..


PS: LTTE never had any caste/religious/Anti-brahmin issue.. As an ideology, they stayed away from these. I believe Pirabakarn belongs to a Forward caste Pillai, tracing his lineage to Kerala, and his childrens bear Christian names.

 

[arunshanker]

Sap says:

Now some one who wishes to 'Prove his intelligence' may rush to prove me wrong, and may go on explaining 'Terrorism' in details.. But some one who is really interested in the social/cause & integration, may accept it as a politically correct statement, and try to achieve his Objective, and utilize this situation...

I am not going to try that here as Sap already has made his mind
but I wud want sap to think about the difference between
Militant and terrorism
all mentioned by Sap had militant overtones ( SCB, Vanchi)
but freedom has been fought for and won without militancy
can you think of examples?
what ever you or anybody may say
LTTE is/was a terrorism sponsor and also a militant org
Vanchi and Bose were militant but were not terrorists
and now some thoughts for MKG - Manithan pona pathai i - Maranthu poga laama?

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH, thanks indeed for the prompt response.

There is no second thought, the Catholic Missionaries worked for the 'Liberation of the Tamils' (Not LTTE) from the clutches of lankan oppression.If you have read the news, there was a priest who stayed along with the civilians in the 'No firing zone',and gave up his life, on the last day of the war.Yes, they do it, because, their core ideology,esp,the Jesuits is 'Liberation'. The entire Church run schools were shut for a day, to voice the concern for the plights of innocent Tamil-civilians..

Now, the point what we should drive/learn here is...Will any tamilian call a Christian as an alien? The sangparivar/even the american voters, always had a doubt with Catholics about theirl oyality to vatican. Parivar tried to paint Christianity/Islam/Parsi as a foreign religions.But a lesson to be learned here is, they all really well got integrated to TAMIL TRIBES,without any second thought.Esp, the support which Christians gave for the Tamil cause in srilanka, had always earned them a good will amongst Tamil tribes. In this same context, Shri.Kujuppu rightly said earlier " Lankan issue, we missed a great opportunity to earn the goodwill'..

Now, calling LTTE as terrorism (keeping in mind my selfish,rather narrow minded thought on this, I admit), I have a few questions.. Who defined the word Terrorism!! Is it Tamils/Indians?...Just because Bush wanted Bomb Iraq, you also wanna equate 'The cause of Tamils' in line with Talibans? If I may ask, can we call Nethaji as terrorist? Vanchi Nathan Iyer killed British collector Ash Durai in the same way, like many LTTE cadres did..., Are you going to call him a terrorist (or) honour him for his fights towards the cause of liberating the Indians from the clutches of Brits.

Now some one who wishes to 'Prove his intelligence' may rush to prove me wrong, and may go on explaining 'Terrorism' in details.. But some one who is really interested in the social/cause & integration, may accept it as a politically correct statement, and try to achieve his Objective, and utilize this situation...

Here, TB's failed to capitalise on this good opportunity..


PS: LTTE never had any caste/religious/Anti-brahmin issue.. As an ideology, they stayed away from these. I believe Pirabakarn belongs to a Forward caste Pillai, tracing his lineage to Kerala, and his childrens bear Christian names.

My offering explanation may be seen as or 'trying to prove intelligence or rush to prove wrong", therefore i merely state what i know as true so far:

1) The sinhalese and tamils had no ethnic divide in the pre-colonial times. Tamil and sinhala populations were known to have mixed, merged, intermarried, and had no pronounced divide until the british set foot on their soil.

Then they, over a period, were made to become aware of a non-existent aryan-dravidian divide, on the basis of languages and habits / practices. Here, lies the crux. The basis of the divide was set up. They thot they were seperate races, which obviously, they are not.

2) The british left, the tamils were in prominent positions, the sinhalese pride was filled with skewed up aryan greatness, and the stage was set for a civil war.

3) The missionaries were blamed for helping the ltte, enhancing and keeping the divide alive. Sure there were people who gave up their lives, like the church father. There are good people everywhere.

However, i have no qualms in saying "outside inteference" spurred their ideas of racial divide and provided the impetus for them to seek land control as means of establishing their identity.

This is one of the reasons, India remains wary of "outside influence" (we discussed part of this in thread on the conference of caste as race by scandinavian countries).

You are not right in saying the ltte never had an anti-brahmin, caste or religion issue.

4) Connect it with netaji and vanchinathan iyer or call it what you want, to me, ltte remains a terrorist organization. I say no more on this. Enuf material is available for those who want to read without bias, or ideas of so-called "dravidian" or tamil supremacy.

5) Reg christianity, the tamils who converted to christian, were already tamils, the religion became integrated into the local system by consistent efforts of church fathers who nativized the religion.

I have nothing against Christ, i beleive in Him (nope i am contesting his historcity). But i do have a prob with people (the west) whose native pagan religion was not christianity but they "use" it, because for the west, their mentality essentially appears to be business like, capitalist like, the idea of using religion as an IPR is their 'discovery' and the idea of divide and rule is their legacy. Please note i do not blame all of the west or consider all of them to be like that, only the ones that were colonialists, "suffer" from white supremacy and seek control of things by fradulent means.

Now there are westerners chucking it their religion as fast as they accepted it or tried to spread it, crusades and eveything not withstanding, the same applying to ppl in other parts of the world - nobody likes 'control' in religion, since faith flies like a free bird and finds its destination.

Am glad the indian tamils did not think twice in voting vaiko and his likes out, am glad indian tamils (except those with political leanings) do not support the ltte.

Am glad the indian governement is keeping its promise of ensuring tamil minority rights are not trampled upon. Am glad the lankan government has tamil as one of its official languages and is doing its part. It will take time to heal, integrate and grow, and surely they will.

I also think the brahmins are tamils in the first place to begin with or have already integrated into "tamil" to the extent of being indistinguishable from the tamils now. They were looked upon skeptically because the claims of being superior-inferior by birth was not acceptable to the masses; and the masses did not think the varna system was applicable to them.

These days no one considers anyone great by birth. The general idea of the populace is to run after things that makes them have a better life.

In short, "integration" already exists, if one chooses to see it that way. But for those with a political or social ideas, no matter how much things are already integrated, the mind will probably look for a divide.

 

[kunjuppu]

happy,

everytime we look at the mirror, we see ourselves, and like or not like, what we see in our reflection.

if we can improve our image, don't we immediately do the needful to rectify and once again peer back into the mirror, to confirm that there is an improvement?

wouldn't it be nice, to have a mirror, which could reflect how others see us? or better, to have a mirror, which would reflect how it is viewed by others?

do we care?

i think there was a time, when brahmins were viewed as a rule, with respect. nowadays, i think, in tamil nadu, that perception has passed on to other communities.

i don't think it is right to blame the dravidian parties for the fall in these perception fortunes. did we do anything in all these 40 years or so of dravidian rule to mitigate the constant stream of mock and sneer?

i was a teenager in 1967 when congress was defeated. many brahmin youths like me welcomed the change, some like me, understanding the depth of changes to come, but most probably not.

rajaji and folks like him, could have channelled the brahmin interests towards a entente with the dravidian parties. but the old man, soon in a huff, pulled away and was target to old time vitriol.

but the muslims and the christians remained in the coalation and have constantly ensured that their public image is well thought of, in the ruling circles.

we,on the other hand, did, and still do, whine away the unfairness of the education quota. nothing else appear to matter to us.

it might be interesting, to take a poll, to see how tamil brahmins are viewed by other tamils.

quotas are here to stay. whether it be the bjp or vhp. in order to win votes, these folks will do the needful to romp them to the legislatures. no solace will come from the current political system.

so how do we work around the quota rules?

personally, i think emigration to the west is an excellent option. there are no quotas there. children rise up to their natural level of limitations.

if opting to stay in tamil nadu, try to start businesses and be independent. and above all, do community service.

on an individual basis, people do help out their less endowed brethren. but we as a community, don't appear to have the will to come together on a non spiritual level, and build endowments.

i think , we do very well, to build temples and veda patasalas. rich brahmins are forever thinking of the nether world and finding ways to guarantee their acceptance at the entrance, i guess.

i think differently. while doing our daily prayers may save our souls, a wee bit of bending our backs, stretching our legs, and lifting our arms and helping the less fortunate, goes a long way in saving our image. and our standing in society.

thank you.

ps.. i speak thus, only of the community. individually, i think, most of us are well adjusted to accommodate friendships that cut across caste and creed these days. quite a progress from 2 or 3 agraharam bound generations ago.

 

[sapr333]

Dear Arun,

Im not here to prove my statement about LTTE as right/wrong. Matter of fact, you are right... My theme out there is, just to narrate some events about integration, and explain the importance of integration with Tamil Tribes. Could you please share some thoughts on this.


Dear HH,

I understand your stand that, 'Intergration do exists, already'
But, please go through the Post script of Shri.Kunjupp in the previous post.. Yes,Integration do exist at a personal level, but not at community level... Thats what he conveys...So how do we integrate? Some action plans..

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH,

I understand your stand that, 'Intergration do exists, already'
But, please go through the Post script of Shri.Kunjupp in the previous post.. Yes,Integration do exist at a personal level, but not at community level... Thats what he conveys...So how do we integrate? Some action plans..

What is present at the personal level will eventually come around to the community level (if at all its not there).

Every function includes a brahmin, whether it is birth or death, so am not sure in what ways the lack of community involvement exists. Am still fiddling my fingers to see where community involvment does not exist, i can only think of politics, and who really cares about politics really, all that ppl want is what benefits them...

The only request i have from the brahmin community is to please not apply varnas to other communities. Everyone accepts you as a brahmin, someone who can help answer prayers. The willingness to want to see a man as the same as you is within you, please do not decide a man is inferior or superior (if at all tehre is any such stance), what appears unequal in the play of creation is not really unequal, to God all truly are the same. Just a sincere request that's all.

 

[sapr333]

Collective bargaining was one of the tool used by many a communities (politics),who were minority in number,,to achieve their community goals.

One can say, Brahmins are just 3%, so no politicians bother,which is again wrong. The fact, is, there are commnunities,who were just 2% in number,who cannot even win a 'Legislative seat" by its own vote bank,has, still managed to represent/occupy more than 5% of MLA seats in assembly and able to get what they want through political lobbying. Let's not forget,even during BJP rule, a religious minority community which represent only 2% in India, has managed to have 4 Chief ministers from their community, ie 15% representation.

I think, there is something missing in this part..

1) Its not the vote bank... Whether one is wanted OR not!. Create something make oneself as 'Wanted'..That comes through integration..

2) Is there any ability to do collective bargaining,while working in unity?.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

You are talking about politics.

I am talking of integration that exists despite politics.

Kunjuppu ji rightly pointed out about involvment in reaching out to the lesser fortunate...that is the better way to go reg community involvment in places where it may not be existing.

Reg politics, as mentioned before, ppl want to be benefitted from their politicians and administrators, which ofcourse is their job. But they being corrupt do not do that. Instead they keep the divide and rule policy for their benefit. The quotas fall under this divide and rule policy. But i hope there are means to overcome this, brahmins are not the only ones affected by reservation policies.

 

[sapr333]

The only request i have from the brahmin community is to please not apply varnas to other communities.

Dear HH,

Before one is, yet to get ready to starts expediting that,it seems reverse discrimination has already started..

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119889387595256961.html

A disturbing article By Eric Bellman from 'Wall Street Journal'

Its starts this way...

R. Parameswaran has suffered that reversal of fortune. The 29-year-old starts every day with a prayer to the Hindu god Shiva, marking his forehead with red and white powder to let the world know he is a Brahmin. In his home village, his caste's mark brought him respect, but since he moved to Chennai, a sprawling high-tech city in the southern state of Tamil Nadu, in the late 1990s, he has found his status a liability ......contd..

The percentage of Brahmin households in India that earned less than $100 a month was about 50% in 2007 and 65% in 2004, according to the 'Center for the Study of Developing Societies'. This article fails to note that the study mentioned in the article was from 2007, while the statistics in the accompanying chart were from 2004

To give a picture about this $100 a month, it converts to Rs.4,300/Month,which is little bit higher than the minimum wage set by Labour Dept for a skilled casual labour (ie,Rs.3180+All benefits).

Shouldnt we all rush to integrate with the mainstream tribes, earn a good will (instead of hatred), and prosper together as 'one' great 'Tamil tribe', which one upon a time even had Trade Relationship with Rome and conquered Java and Sumatra?

 

[kunjuppu]

sapr,

the situation of the brahmins vary from state to state.

to lump them all together, is to mix apples, oranges and other fruits.

to keep the discussion meaningful, i think, we should restrict ourselves to tamil brahmins.

i too read this article in wsj. there was a similar article in new york times a couple of years ago.

this was describing the situtation of 24 year old tamil brahmin youth and that of his sister.

from the article, and what he said, i figured that this guy was a whiner. his sister was more resourceful and i think would get ahead in life.

thank you.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Kujuppu,

I thought this was the opinion of WSJ's journo..I never knew, its was a single person's(Parameswarna's) whining, in different mag's..

In yet another forum, this article was glorified to highlight the reverse-discrimation in T.N..


I agree with you, the discussion/statistics should be limited to TB's alone..

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri.Kujuppu,

I thought this was the opinion of WSJ's journo..I never knew, its was a single person's(Parameswarna's) whining, in different mag's..

In yet another forum, this article was glorified to highlight the reverse-discrimation in T.N..


I agree with you, the discussion/statistics should be limited to TB's alone..

thanks sapr.

when i saw the answers from this guy, it was that of a loser - he appeared to me, as someone, who had no drive.

he had a degree, and expected a job to land on his plate. if only life was so easy.

again, his sister came out as more resourceful and enterprising.

personally, i have known a lot of tamil brahmin boys, who were absolute zeroes, and who by the influence of their parents/relatives landed in plum jobs in banks during the 1960s/70s.

at that time, the bank jobs were among the most sought after, and if you go to any bank in madras, it used to be dominated by the brahmins. not all of them got their by merit.

i find, it is the remnants of this group, that whines the loudest about discrimination and the affirmative actions. the resourceful ones, know their way to figure and get what they want.

also, it is not all panacea for the beneficiaries of the quota system. most of them have to toil just as hard, as the indian pie is small, and there are too many aspirants.

i think, an optimistic and viable solution, is to increase the size of the pie, in which case, all this would be non issue.

 

[happyhindu]

Kunjuppu ji,

re-read your post, found it interesting the way you put that resourceful ones find their way around, and about the man whining...

the whole idea of expecting respect based on caste is so very passe, ancient literally.

the days when ppl started respecting tatas, birlas, ambanis started years ago. obviously some ppl cannot cope with this even now, and seek respect for inane things.

to be very honest sir, i find that the only ones that crib about caste are a section of brahmins and a section of dalits...one feels proud, the other feels persecuted, while most others don't seem like they care...given the grind and the drudgery of everyday life, who really seems to be bothered about these things, esp on political terms....

 

[pannvalan]

The identity of Tamil Brahmins

I have travelled extensively throughout our country. But what pained me was it was the Brahmin community - Tamil Brahmins - who did not want to reveal their identity. Even after coming to know that I am also one like them, if not one among them, their pretence was so irritating. Sometimes, they have wantonly spoken to me in a language knowing fully well that I am least familar with that language.

Outside Tamilnadu, many NBs have helped (don't mean financially, coz i am reasonably well off) me, but not TBs.

Why should they feel shy? What prevents them? Is it out of any fear that the other person may immediately ask for some help? This tendency or irritating behaviour I never faced with any other Tamil castes/groups.

Therefore, time has come for the Tamil Brahmins to shed the shallow pride that are superior to all sorts of people in the local population and they must learn to live in peace and amity with others. They need not feel shy to name their mother tongue. This doesn't happen with Brahmins speaking all other languages in the entire country.

Let the Tamil Brahmins declare themselves proudly and loudly that they are also Tamils.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Pannvalan, I was quite surprised by this.

Infact, atleast for a decade, I have also extensively travelled across the country, and to some extent, to countries too. Met up with quite a lot of top notch corporates/biz heads/Aisle seat travellor/wine&dine-outs etc

But my experience shares, an entirely opposite (positive)thing, than what you expressed here.


>>.Let the Tamil Brahmins declare themselves proudly and loudly that they are also Tamils>>>

Very valid point..

 

[pannvalan]

The identity of tamil brahmins

1. I do not want to discredit the whole of Tamil Brahmin population.But at the same time, I can't avoid saying that more than 60% of them behaved the way I described earlier.

2. Two or more of them were talking in Tamil. When I went nearer, they switched over to Malayalam, Telugu, Hindi or English spontaneously. Why I can't understand.

3. Particularly outside one's home state, attachment and love towards one's mother tongue becomes more forceful and visible. But, in their case, it was not.

4. The only change I could notice is in the present generation youths, who do not want to care for any identities by birth like mother tongue etc. They don't even think twice to marry a
colleague/neighbour's daughter, even if her mother tongue is entirely different.

When we are outside Tamilnadu, what do we want?

1. A feeling of love and solidarity.
2. A little help like directing us to the correct address.
3. A chance conversation during journeys or waiting at a place for long for some purpose.
4. Sharing some common interests.

I never wanted to visit their home for a lunch or a dinner; I never sought any material help either explicitly or implicitly; I never wanted to borrow a book or pencil or any silly thing from them; Yet, they avoided me, I could notice. This has happened to me umpteen number of times.

Even when I asked if they were Tamilians their reply was an emphatic 'No' or they simply told that 'Tamil konjam konjam theriyum'.

This kind of pretence only I hated and wanted to highlight. I do not how our other members will react to this kind of statement or observation from me.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Pannvalan-ji,

I can assure you that when i meet Tamilians and TBs on a personal basis, we speak in Tamil. When i cannot understand some words, they will tell me the meaning in english and switch back to tamil. There are times when i have requested the other person to speak in tamil with me so that it helps improve my language.

Perhaps this shyness to speak in mother tongue happens in teenagers or young ppl, who tend to be conscious of everything.

In the place where i stay i used to meet an elderly lady on the bus quite often, i think she was a keralite tamilian becoz her tamil (iyerbhashai) had loads of malayalam words. Though i cud not understand some words, each time we met, we spoke in tamil only.