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Indian Achievement in Corruption

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AnanthaNarayanan

Active member
Alarming issue, the need to counter the corruption is the most important one in the country.but the above article shows the inability due to the CORRUPTION.
in the present scenario :for common man " onam vannalum unni pirannalum koranu kumble kanji"
for our political leaders: "deepa sthampam mahachariyam enikkum kittanam panam"
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Sangom Sir,

India is the only country where one can obtain a receipt for corrupted practices. I consider 'capitation' fees collected by private colleges is none but corruption. Funds distributed for non-existing roads/PWD projects; funds distributed for laying complete stripping and laying a new road where only 'patch up' work was done; importantly, contestants paying in multiples of lakhs of rupees to the political parties to get the election seat (how else would the contestant get the money back other than by corruption?)......Indians pride themselves with all the 'philosophies and culture' while indulging in corrupted practices. We all are corrupted. Either we receive the money in corruption or we give the money in corruption. 125 billons eh?....cool!

Cheers!
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
i think while india gives a good run to reach the top, there are also pakistan, bangla, haiti, greece and such like.

wonder how much of aid for pak flood victims is reaching the folks who are affected!

corruption appears a global phenomenon. take bush and his contractor buddies in iraq. the canadian PM was thought to have paid millions, so that the then state owned air canada bought airbus planes (traditional supplier boeing).

i think barring scandinavian countries, probably on singapore is corruption free - even though there have been rumours about the lee family ;)
 

SuryaKasyapa

Active member
Sri Raghy,

I enjoyed the ironical joke in your allusion to 'receipt for corruption'.

You may remember the initiatives of our govt many years ago, to bring out 'black money'- there was this thing called 'Bearer Bonds'. Is it not a receipt for corrupt money? a great part of black money comes thru corruption route also.

Sri kunjuppu,

I have a secret giggle when bits of news are trickling once in a while about corrupt practices from other 'clean' countries also. the giggle is -in knowing that at least in this our country ha followers.

There is a strange annual ritual in public sector institutions in our country, when all employees are 'compulsorily' taking an oath to avoid corruption.

It is only a mockery and helping the non-corrupt and honest to take to corruption. Otherwise,why a clean person is to be compelled to take an oath on something he never did and never wants to do.?

The best way is to make corruption, the fundamental right and legally redressable item. If you cannot avoid something, make it legal and acceptable.


Greetings
 
N

nachi naga

Guest
times of india is such a cool website,with authentic reporting.wonder how the reporters are so motivated,aaj ka taaja khabar :)
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
More I read about Corruption I get confused on the definition of the word which states " lack of integrity or honesty (especially susceptibility to bribery); use of a position of trust for dishonest gain". Moral degradation has come to such a low degree, that nothing moves in our Country (India) without paying "some thing".The so called "Tatkal" for seat reservations in Railways, or getting Passports within three days are Government approved corrupt practices. But surprisingly corrupt people are more reliable in getting the results for us.

I remember it was Rajaji who said that in olden days the person used to ask for Bakshish after completing the job, now it was asked before taking up the job.

Some one please tell me what is Corruption ?

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
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sangom

sangom

Well-known member
More I read about Corruption I get confused on the definition of the word which states " lack of integrity or honesty (especially susceptibility to bribery); use of a position of trust for dishonest gain". Moral degradation has come to such a low degree, that nothing moves in our Country (India) without paying "some thing".The so called "Tatkal" for seat reservations in Railways, or getting Passports within three days are Government approved corrupt practices. But surprisingly corrupt people are more reliable in getting the results for us.

I remember it was Rajaji who said that in olden days the person used to ask for Bakshish after completing the job, now it was asked before taking up the job.

Some one please tell me what is Corruption ?

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
Shri Brahmanyan,

Corruption, in today's circumstances, is "making personal benefit in cash, kind or otherwise, by circumventing or flouting the law". Tatkal reservation, Urgent delivery of Pass Port etc., are not examples of corruption; they are specialized services approved by the govt. for which extra charges are levied.
 

SuryaKasyapa

Active member
Shri Brahmanyan,

Corruption, in today's circumstances, is "making personal benefit in cash, kind or otherwise, by circumventing or flouting the law". Tatkal reservation, Urgent delivery of Pass Port etc., are not examples of corruption; they are specialized services approved by the govt. for which extra charges are levied.


Sri Sangom,

I think that is why it confuses Sri Brahmanyan,

Before 'Tatkal"reservation system, if anybody needs an urgent ticket, there were some 'service minded' people ( cursed and named as Touts,agents,middlemen,brokers etc), who ensured a ticket at a premium depending on demand. Public were crying against them, railways were employing squad etc to unearth rackets doing such business.

When Railways found that this cannot be wiped out , they thought ,then why can,t we have the money premium ,and they called it a new name ''Tatkal". So unavoidable corruption became legalised. For the general public the effect is same .Urgency premium is to be given,not to the agent,but to Railways.

Earlier due to restriction, gold was smuggled into our country in vast quantities. Then govt thought, why should we lose the money! They relaxed the import quota. But,then again smuggling continues.Only that some portion of the import comes thru allowed chanells and govt gets money.


That is the moral of the story- if you cannot stop something, endure and enjoy. Corruption too..
 
R

R. Ramanujan

Guest
yeh corruption is sad reality in India. Today they have bicholias or the middle man(so that babus don't get caught in sting ops). In fact he deals with us takes money and passes it on to babus. I paid 1200 for driving licence. I knew only to drive scooter and he gave me both car and scooter licence that too all india without any test. (but don't worry guys I won't risk any ones life by driving car within getting proper training ha ha). And those ppl who don't pay up are made to do rounds. Every where there are ghotalas/scams. They place order with suppliers, inflate the rates and in b/w eat the difference. Its so unfortunate.
 
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sangom

sangom

Well-known member
Sri Sangom,

I think that is why it confuses Sri Brahmanyan,

Before 'Tatkal"reservation system, if anybody needs an urgent ticket, there were some 'service minded' people ( cursed and named as Touts,agents,middlemen,brokers etc), who ensured a ticket at a premium depending on demand. Public were crying against them, railways were employing squad etc to unearth rackets doing such business.

When Railways found that this cannot be wiped out , they thought ,then why can,t we have the money premium ,and they called it a new name ''Tatkal". So unavoidable corruption became legalised. For the general public the effect is same .Urgency premium is to be given,not to the agent,but to Railways.

Earlier due to restriction, gold was smuggled into our country in vast quantities. Then govt thought, why should we lose the money! They relaxed the import quota. But,then again smuggling continues.Only that some portion of the import comes thru allowed chanells and govt gets money.


That is the moral of the story- if you cannot stop something, endure and enjoy. Corruption too..
Sri Suryakasyapa,

In my view when the govt. which is the legal authority, does some service and prescribes certain charges for those services, it cannot be called corruption legalized. Take the postal services; the express delivery costs more, registration is still costlier and speed-post means very high charges. Do we/can we say these are all legalized corruption? The number of train travellers has grown astronomically, and it is impossible to get a reserved seat/berth even on the second or third day sometimes. So, if someone wants a confirmed berth just two days before travel, and the government makes some arrangement for it then the govt. is very much justified in levying additional charges for that service also. If someone feels it is not justified, he/she can file a case and test it in the court of law.

Anyway the touts have become very active in the tatkaal market, corner all the quota within the first few minutes, and as long as you can pass off as a "non-senior citizen" by looks and are prepared to assume the name and age given by the tout, you can have a tatkaal journey.

There is hardly any profit in smuggling gold now and no one in his wits will attempt it now. Even without smuggling gold the jewellery trade is making a killing for the last so many years by adulterating with iridium and ruthenium; it gives a flat margin of 3 to 4 percent (the maximum that can be adulterated is 6 percent). Far higher margins are in smuggling into India, drugs, arms and the best of them all - fake currency. Ask any customs officer and confirm whether I am right. Much more lucrative is in smuggling out some items like idols, snake skins, certain rare species of animals, etc.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Sri Sangom,

I think that is why it confuses Sri Brahmanyan,

That is the moral of the story- if you cannot stop something, endure and enjoy. Corruption too..

Dear Sri "Suryakasyapa",

When Karnataka Government found that more than 80% of the Buildings built in Karnataka had flouted the Building regulations, by bribing the officials, They brought a legislation called "Karnataka Town and Country Planning and Certain Other Laws (Amendment) Bill, 2009", popularly known as Akrama Sakrama, for regularisation of structures violating building bylaws, by levying penalty. The corrupt practices were regularised and every one is happy.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore
 
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sangom

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sri "Suryakasyapa",

When Karnataka Government found that more than 80% of the Buildings built in Karnataka had flouted the Building regulations, by bribing the officials, They brought a legislation called "Karnataka Town and Country Planning and Certain Other Laws (Amendment) Bill, 2009", popularly known as Akrama Sakrama, for regularisation of structures violating building bylaws, by levying penalty. The corrupt practices were regularised and every one is happy.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore
Shri Brahmanyan,

To me it appears that the Tatkaal scheme and the regularization in Karnataka are different, principle-wise. Tatkaal was introduced as a positive help to people who may have to undertake journey at short notice. As you may be well aware, in Karnataka as elsewhere, the builders' lobbyis very strong and most state govts. and the central govt. are under their control. They will do whatever they want and get away with it by such regularizations. Here also, we can say, that if the govt./s. had been ruthless, many common people would have been put to great loss. But that cannot, probably, justify the action which is primarily aimed at safeguarding the interests of the builders' lobby which has very close connections with politicians.
 

kr subramanian

Active member
Even in temples ,where all are supposed tobe equal, if you pay extra you can be nearer to the deity and pray. Whenever sick, Doctor`s personal attention is received only after extra is filled in.
What is the service tax? When you are paying for the service to the concerned party why as a third person govt takes some amount as tax? More or less this is equal to the NOOKKUKOOLI (PAYING SOME MONEY TO A PERSON WHO WILL JUST LOOK OUR LOADING UNLOADING GOODS )IN kERALA.
Our own gods , I think, have started this practice. Whenever you pray to a concerned deity, without looking to the consequences, they sanction the boon and it is for the coimmon man to suffer.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
Dear Mr. Sangom,
Isn't the word "Achievement" always associated with the good things in life?
Is Corruption really an achievement for Indians to feel proud about?
The title seems to suggest that excelling in corruption is a virtue indeed!
with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani
 
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sangom

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Mr. Sangom,
Isn't the word "Achievement" always associated with the good things in life?
Is Corruption really an achievement for Indians to feel proud about?
The title seems to suggest that excelling in corruption is a virtue indeed!
with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani
Dear Smt. Visalakshi,

I found that almost all synonyms of achievement (attainment, accomplishment, accomplishment, feat, etc.) all have generally a positive connotation and so chose the word achievement.

Pl. suggest a suitable word so I can remember for future.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
Dear Mr. Sangom,
How about "The cancer called corruption" for the new title?
Corruption spreads like a Cancer and kills/affects the victim like cancer, at least economically!
Like the cancer, Corruption can never be completely cured or treated.
It always keeps spreading in all directions, unnoticed!
with warm regards,
Visalakshi Ramani.
 
H

hoover

Guest
there are four kind of beurocrat
1. non currupt and efficiant
2. currupt but efficiant
3. noncurrupt but inefficiant
4. currupt and inefficiant
latest mockery of CWG is a good example, where indian culture of governance is going. so many ministers, a cm and pm himself are commanding but nothing is going well and its root cause is compromised quality human resource right from a cleark to an IAS in administration due to policy of caste based reservations. MR. Kalmadi is being bashed for this extensively but it was destined to happen even if any one is in charge of that. instead of rectifying root fault everyone is interested in patch up.
 
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sangom

sangom

Well-known member
there are four kind of beurocrat
1. non currupt and efficiant
2. currupt but efficiant
3. noncurrupt but inefficiant
4. currupt and inefficiant
latest mockery of CWG is a good example, where indian culture of governance is going. so many ministers, a cm and pm himself are commanding but nothing is going well and its root cause is compromised quality human resource right from a cleark to an IAS in administration due to policy of caste based reservations. MR. Kalmadi is being bashed for this extensively but it was destined to happen even if any one is in charge of that. instead of rectifying root fault everyone is interested in patch up.
Shri Hoover,

While I agree that corruption in India is on the increasing trend, and the classification of beaureucrats into the four possible categories, based on efficiency and corruption, I do not think that there is "compromised quality human resource right from a cleark to an IAS in administration due to policy of caste based reservations". Within the last few days another member had written about how brahmin auditors have now become very corrupt. I had also occasion to notice that the employees who perpetrated frauds in a certain bank were more often than not brahmins. Further, no corruption of such monumental extent as in the CWG, could have happened in this country even today, without a nod and/or a wink from the political powers that be. Hence blaming the reservation system and the consequent, imagined, corruption increase due to "compromised quality of HR" is like accusing without solid evidence, based on just one's suspicions or instincts, I feel.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
there are four kind of bureaucrat
1. non currupt and efficiant
2. currupt but efficiant
3. noncurrupt but inefficiant
4. currupt and inefficiant
latest mockery of CWG is a good example, where indian culture of governance is going. so many ministers, a cm and pm himself are commanding but nothing is going well and its root cause is compromised quality human resource right from a cleark to an IAS in administration due to policy of caste based reservations. MR. Kalmadi is being bashed for this extensively but it was destined to happen even if any one is in charge of that. instead of rectifying root fault everyone is interested in patch up.

Corruption is a vicious circle. An abysmal vortex, if any one falls in it, he/she is doomed to be swallowed by it. There are good bureaucrats also who were caught in corruption by circumstances. I had the experience of meeting some them in my life. Here is one,Some years ago I met an officer of Road Transport Department to get guidance for transferring the Registration our car from another State. The Officer was extremely helpful and gave a list of things to be done by us for the purpose. After completing all the required paper work I met him again with the documents. He scrutinized them and found to be in order. However he told me to wait for some more time since he had information to the effect that the Government was contemplating doing away Sales Tax on transfer of Vehicles soon, which will save me a few thousands of Rupees. He was right, shortly the Government did cancel S.T. on vehicles transferred from other states. Again I met the Officer and he completed all the required formalities for transfer of Registration and gave the new Number also for the Vehicle within a couple of hours. Then he gave the new Registration book and wished me best of luck with a friendly hand shake. I was wonder struck and plainly asked him whether I should pay any money to him. The officer laughed loudly and told me that he never demand or take money from "elderly persons of his father's age". Then he explained how he had to pay a hefty amount to power brokers for his legitimate transfer to the city for continuing the higher education of his only daughter. He said that he too was a middle class family man who wanted to lead an honest life. But once he came into the Department he understood that he was caught in the vicious circle of no return, but practiced a bit of morality in demanding money.
I have come across many such honest persons during my professional life from ordinary constables to Gazetted Officers. But they are few.

Corruption starts from the top and saps away national wealth. Unless we have honest people in the top to lead us there is no hope of cleansing the system. Unfortunately corruption has permeated to every corners of administration, it has become omnipresent.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore
 
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hoover

Guest
effects of compromised quality human resource are exponantial.
1. more and more imbesile person get recruited, totally unfit for job, just due caste.
2. some of them have got Kavadh Kundalas of caste mejoriy and conseqently political patronisation and constitutional safeguard. this can be seen easily these days that an IAS cannot do anything other than writing two lines in cr to even a peon of some caste. whatever wrongs that person doing.
3. when compromised quality human resource is entering 60% ( 50% due to reservations and 10% due to caste based age relaxation.) in system it is not going to work with efficiancy which ultimately causes curruption. and in such scenario those who non currupt have remain no option but to join catagory 2 or catagory 3. their first priority becomes to save thir service and go by written line.
4. compromised qulity human resoure affects in other ways too. it include failure in public prosecuters, law enforcement agencies etc. etc. and that leads to mafia raj. people have to live with extra governmental authorities like politicians and hooligans. gradually it turns into a parallel system.
5. compromised quality human resource fails to resist politicians (these are members of most irrisponsible class ) and when 60 persent join hands with them other 40 percent do not have any option to feed their family with safty.
age relaxation causes men with wrong convictions enetering the system a reserve catagory beurocrat joins service at much later age due to number of attempts for exam are more and age relaxation. when convictions of a man nearly fixed and family and caste interst taking place of robust activity to do something different. varify me by UPSC CSE exam.
when wrongdoers follow merit then police have to follow it otherwise they will fail. mafias do not have cast based reservation. they are the merit holderl of everyday life.
 
H

hoover

Guest
what i discribed, is a vary complex process and everything in it is related somehow to other if one thing goes wrong it affects other. and there is no other way than meritocracy. It must be followed. here i am not saying this due to my caste allegiance but with pragmatic point of view. meritocracy means selection of human resorce from large pool. and choosing the best.
2. when people talk about corruption, their prototype currupt is an policman. which is most distinctly visible govt. servant. there are lot others who do curruption in multiple amout to that of police but are not daily visible.
3. why judiciary and armed forces are less corrupt and more efficiant than any other departments. because they follow meritocracy. (here i am talking abut judges and other setup of courts. and not public prosecuters etc. which are oppointed by govt.). these two institutions are also gradually disintegrating because inefficiancy of govt. is affecting to them also and when govt. doesnt provide law, order, security, dignity it is natural to become selfish.
 
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sangom

sangom

Well-known member
what i discribed, is a vary complex process and everything in it is related somehow to other if one thing goes wrong it affects other. and there is no other way than meritocracy. It must be followed. here i am not saying this due to my caste allegiance but with pragmatic point of view. meritocracy means selection of human resorce from large pool. and choosing the best.
2. when people talk about corruption, their prototype currupt is an policman. which is most distinctly visible govt. servant. there are lot others who do curruption in multiple amout to that of police but are not daily visible.
3. why judiciary and armed forces are less corrupt and more efficiant than any other departments. because they follow meritocracy. (here i am talking abut judges and other setup of courts. and not public prosecuters etc. which are oppointed by govt.). these two institutions are also gradually disintegrating because inefficiancy of govt. is affecting to them also and when govt. doesnt provide law, order, security, dignity it is natural to become selfish.
Shri Hoover,

I am in disagreement with you in that somehow you link merit to honesty, and that, in my view, is not correct in this world; there can be mediocrity existing with honesty and merit (by which you indicate intelligence, I presume) can be in a very dishonest person who will merit the "most corrupt" title perhaps!

What I have learnt from my sons who are abroad and many others of my relatives' circle living abroad, is that despite poverty, deprivation, low wages, etc., in at least some areas of the economy/society there, people tend to be less corrupt, as compared to the East Asian country people when they are in their own countries. The reason for this perhaps needs further research for being understood. The foreign people who successfully execute gigantic projects and all that are not much more intelligent and skilled (merit aspect) than our average Indian, say, but basically, they do not become corrupt and everyone tends to do his work conscientiously and as best as possible- no short-changing, that is.

Hence even with reservation and all that, we as a country will be able to hold our head high only if corruption is eradicated. (Meritocracy will not IMO bring about this unless you have irrefutable evidence to prove that reservation brought in corruption.) That perhaps will not be possible so long as the present system of democracy with elections costing huge sums to be financed by the political parties, continues.
 
H

hoover

Guest
shri sangom sir,
i said it that it is vary complex, prima facia the link between corruption and merit do not exist. but it is certain that quality of work of an IIT ian and an average college engineer is different. so is a general MD and that of a AIIMS pg.
an intelligent may be corrupt but certainly he has more collective conscience than a less intelligent.
what is your comment on my other points. i.e. age, mafia, judiciary and army.
why no country of african people is stable politically. and why western european countries having largly nordic/caucasoid population are devloped and remin so even after two distructive wars. it is releted to genes also. but we cannot change genes of indians. so scientific is to take most eligible person for the post. the present policy in root bars to select correct person on the half of the posts to be filled. they have to be choosen from certain sections only of society.
You mentioned about corruption in politics. but for certain degree again it is failure of law enforcement agencies. one TN Sheshan reduced the corruption in elections by considerable mean. so can other beurocrats but condition is they have the mental power to tackle that. only will to be non corrupt is not sufficiant. you individually may remain so but. once you turned to cleanup u get exposed to danger. So again to takle sucessfully or subdue corrupt a certain degree of intelligence is needed.
 

NSP

Member
In practice the money that leaves India comes back to India as FDI and FII. Therefore the argument that the Black Money stashed at Swiss bank when recovered will repay all India's debt are all only illogical. The money goes out for Black Money cannot be accounted. It comes back easily for nobody can trace account of FDI / FII, particularly when they routed through the tax havens.

The illusion that FDI and FII alone are the indicator on India's emergence is the one causing the havoc. It is unfortunate that many do not even bother to understand the mechanism of Black Money and make hue and cry about a report that means nothing.
 
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