How Punishment or reward for one's action in previous birth help to reform a soul?

[P.J.]

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[FONT=&quot]When human souls do not remember their previous birth, punishment or reward for the bad Karma in their previous births is justified? When one jumps a signal, the person is penalized, remembers and acts as a deterrent to commit such acts in future. In case of Rebirth, we do not remember any thing of our previous birth’s good or bad / actions; in that case how a punishment or reward is going to help reform a soul?[/FONT]

 

[prasad1]

Punishment is never a deterrent of crime, ask any of the Talibans or other criminals in Jails.
Crime against your conscience, inflicts its own punishment.
Only non-abrahamic religions believes in rebirth. So the karma theory is for your personal liberation, not to be confused with crime and punishment as we know in this world.

If you have killed your conscience, there is no punishment big enough.
Soul is pure - as soul is Brahman. You have a shell of vasana, which has all these attributes.

 

[P.J.]

Dear Prasad Sir,

Thanks, Still we only say when one suffers, it is his POORAVA JANMA KARMA? Is it not?
When when is born wealthy and enjoys everything in life, there also we only say" It is his Poorva Janma PALAN"
Don't we?
What does it mean?
For Actions done in previous births ,reactions come the subsequent birth.

 

[prasad1]

Birth and death are events like changing of cloths for jivatma. They are not beginning and end.
For the sake of sympathy in Colloquial terms we say poorva janma karms, when some one suffers.
We are burning with envy when some one enjoys their poorva janma phala.

The poorva janma phala does not care for our feelings.

 

[renuka]

When human souls do not remember their previous birth, punishment or reward for the bad Karma in their previous births is justified? When one jumps a signal, the person is penalized, remembers and acts as a deterrent to commit such acts in future. In case of Rebirth, we do not remember any thing of our previous birth’s good or bad / actions; in that case how a punishment or reward is going to help reform a soul?

Dear Sir,

Greetings.

This topic has been discussed many times in the forum as I remember.
POORVA JANMA KARMA theory used to be a pet topic before some last year.

May be you can look through old threads here and find the answer.

The same question you are asking have been debated many times before with no real satisfying answer.

But as Hindsu we have been exposed to Karma theory since childhood and frankly speaking it makes a lot of sense...not that we are conditioned to accept it but it does explain lots of stuff well.

Even in other religions that do not believe in Karma Theory they believe that everything is Takdir and before birth the souls are aware and agree to the conditions and hence they are born.

I hope other members can help you more on this..but meanwhile you can look through old threads.

Peace be upon you

 

[sravna]

If you think of reality as only one which is brahman you can better appreciate karma theory. Brahman as a whole is in perfect balance. Nothing in excess. The whole physical reality which in fact is ultimately brahman, is only restoring the balance when some excess happens, which through the dimensions of space and time is seen as a reaction.

Operationally speaking, we need different births because the environment needs to be different so that the jivatma experiences something new and different. Since the learning experience is important really only for the jivatma, the past memory is probably not made accessible in a conscious way. Also knowing consciously about past lives only acts as a detractor and might be a tussle between the soul and the mind since the soul has already learnt from the past lives but the mind might be influenced by the present life.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

some come in this birth itself and some takes jenmas. these are facts of nature just accept it.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear prasad !
well said.we do not know the previous birth and also next birth.be good and be helpful to others in this janma.we should remmeber
your words
IF YOU HAVE KILLED YOUR CONSCIENCE,THERE IS NO PUNISHMENT BIG ENOUGH
guruvayurappan

 

[P.J.]

Wonderful replies, thanks everyone
Appayya Dikshitar suffered from an unbearable stomach pain. But he did not want to cancel the classes for his students. He was also particular that his teaching should not be compromised because of his pain. So he took some grass and transferred his pain to the grass and taught the students. At the end of the classes, he transferred the pain back to his stomach.
Noticing this, one of his students asked Dikshitar why he did not take a bigger clump of grass and transfer all his pain to it once and for all. Dikshitar replied that his stomach ache was the result of his past actions. He had to pay for all his acts of omission and commission. So it was only proper that he pay for his karma.
Bhishma prayed that he should face in this janma itself the consequences of all his karma in all his previous births, so that when he departed from this world, he would go to God with a clean account. There would be no deficits to be carried over to another birth; there would be no need for another birth. It takes a lot of courage to speak as Bhishma did.

So what we derive from the above Sir?

We pay i repeat we pay for every action, that is every Karma done by us; whether it is good or bad.

 

[prasad1]

dear prasad !
well said.we do not know the previous birth and also next birth.be good and be helpful to others in this janma.we should remmeber
your words
IF YOU HAVE KILLED YOUR CONSCIENCE,THERE IS NO PUNISHMENT BIG ENOUGH
guruvayurappan

Thank you sir.

 

[prasad1]

Wonderful replies, thanks everyone
Appayya Dikshitar suffered from an unbearable stomach pain. But he did not want to cancel the classes for his students. He was also particular that his teaching should not be compromised because of his pain. So he took some grass and transferred his pain to the grass and taught the students. At the end of the classes, he transferred the pain back to his stomach.
Noticing this, one of his students asked Dikshitar why he did not take a bigger clump of grass and transfer all his pain to it once and for all. Dikshitar replied that his stomach ache was the result of his past actions. He had to pay for all his acts of omission and commission. So it was only proper that he pay for his karma.
Bhishma prayed that he should face in this janma itself the consequences of all his karma in all his previous births, so that when he departed from this world, he would go to God with a clean account. There would be no deficits to be carried over to another birth; there would be no need for another birth. It takes a lot of courage to speak as Bhishma did.

So what we derive from the above Sir?

We pay i repeat we pay for every action, that is every Karma done by us; whether it is good or bad.

Yes sir, I fully subscribe to that view.

 

[renuka]

We pay i repeat we pay for every action, that is every Karma done by us; whether it is good or bad.

Dear Sir,


Do you feel that all accounts are settled in one birth itself and there is no rebirth?

Could you kindly share your thoughts with us?

 

[Raghy]

When human souls do not remember their previous birth, punishment or reward for the bad Karma in their previous births is justified? When one jumps a signal, the person is penalized, remembers and acts as a deterrent to commit such acts in future. In case of Rebirth, we do not remember any thing of our previous birth’s good or bad / actions; in that case how a punishment or reward is going to help reform a soul?

Sri. Padmanabhan Janakiraman, Greetings.

Punishment or reward for 'poorva Janma' doen't make sense. Moreover, everyone's life is unique. We just don't know what is happiness in a defined term; all we know is just subjective. So, we don't even know one is rewarded or punished! When I was young I remember people looking at me sometimes with sympathy; in their eyes I was suffering... but I was having glorious fun even then! But those persons look at me with envy. Matter of fact one lady in early 2012 said that in as many words... she did not envy me now though, but did express what she thought about my life 30 years back and what che thinks of it then ( early 2012).

I strongly believe we pay for all our karmas in this same life. Only we have to be very careful not to extend our karmas even after our death. In my opinion we came along here to this earth with a clean slate and I strongly advocate we should leave this place with a clean slate.

Cheers!

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

killing conscience is no big deal , it seems.. that's why we have so much corruption and all sorts of laws and regulation to uphold justice.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear HRHK !
killing conscience is not possible . those who are corrupt are not listening to it.
since it is repeatedly warning you and hence the suffering.he may escape the law but not the torture by his own conscience .more knowledge ,more awareness and more pain given by your conscience.
guruvayurappan , '

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Guruvayurappan,

I think conscience is eclipsed in those who don't seem to listen to it. So they don't seem to have a problem. But in such cases the ego does the job in a negative way by causing their own downfall.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

yes guru ji i agree with you.

my point is if" manasakshi "works then we don't need such a big infrastructure to uphold law and order. sadly other doesn't work

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

yes guru ji i agree with you.

my point is if" manasakshi "works then we don't need such a big infrastructure to uphold law and order. sadly it doesn't work

 

[sangom]

yes guru ji i agree with you.

my point is if" manasakshi "works then we don't need such a big infrastructure to uphold law and order. sadly it doesn't work

Shri HRHK sir,

As the name truly implies, "manassaakshi" is an eternal "witness" or "saakshi" (that which has its eyes on). It knows all our words, thoughts and deeds. For people who have not overruled that "manassaakshi" in a certain word, deed or thought, it inevitably brings up a thought that what you are saying, thinking or doing, or are about to say, think or do, is not right, it is "adhaarmic" to use a Hindu term. But we can rather easily overrule this manassaakshi. One current example that comes to my (old man's) mind is how most TB youngsters who migrate to foreign countries (and even those who live in India and move among the nouveau riche society, take to non-vegetarian food, alcoholic drinks, intimately mixing with many boys/girls, etc. I am sure that in all these cases when the person first deviates from what his (orthodox) family background had taught him, the manassaakshi would definitely have pointed out the deviation. But the conscious self is capable of silencing and over-ruling the conscience and once this is done then onwards the conscience simply watches and keeps a record.

Coming to the OP's point that when we don't recollect our sins of the past lives, I feel Nature or God is very wise to do so. Because, even if our karmas are clearly given in the form of a charge-sheet and then the punishment pronounced, it is likely that some of us will tend to feel "only this much punishment for this... then I will jolly well indulge in it again!". This is true because many confirmed criminals, I am told by Police people, really enjoy their Life Imprisonment Terms because for them the open jail is better than their life outside.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

sangom ji

there is a fun loving part to every human (kama purushartam) and need to be addressed properly without going to extremes like drinking and partying. I never attended all this and never needed to get some fun. So I'm at lost why they do this.

i think boy/ girl relationship disorder is very disturbing. when mind's are fickle one cannot have steady relationship , when there is no steady relationship will the children of future be emotionally stable ? I don't know..

 

[sangom]

sangom ji

there is a fun loving part to every human (kama purushartam) and need to be addressed properly without going to extremes like drinking and partying. I never attended all this and never needed to get some fun. So I'm at lost why they do this.

i think boy/ girl relationship disorder is very disturbing. when mind's are fickle one cannot have steady relationship , when there is no steady relationship will the children of future be emotionally stable ? I don't know..

Shri HRHK ji,

First of all, I have not so far heard - in the context of our Hindu scriptures - that "Kaama" is a higher Purushaarthha than Dharma, Kāma and, of course, Mokṣa. That is why the normal usage in our saṃkalpamantras. Dharma always ranked first and Arthha or wealth acquired through Dharmic means was also considered a good and desirable Purushaarthha. Lust or sexual passion which may be considered the most powerful of all Kāmas in an ordinary individual, also has to be within the boundaries of Dharma, according to our scriptural edicts, though the word Kāma or desire, is the root cause of all human (and even those of the beasts and birds) actions. Hence, what is most appropriate is that our Kāma is channelized towards attainment of Mokṣa; but, I agree with you that in foreign countries perhaps Mokṣa is not a factor at all, and the order of puruṣārtthas may well be Arthha and Kāma only.


The problem is that I am looking at things from the pov of an old man of the previous generation.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #19.

...even those who live in India and move among the nouveau riche society, take to non-vegetarian food, alcoholic drinks, intimately mixing with many boys/girls, etc.

Are you suggesting consumption of alcohol and non-vegetarian food as 'sinful acts'? There would be a degree of 'uneasiness' when we do anything for the first time. I felt 'uneasy' when I first wore my pair of trousers. I don't know about 'intimately mixing with many girls though because I don't know where 'intimacy' starts. I did have few friends in the opposite gender.

When you say

..I am sure that in all these cases when the person first deviates from what his (orthodox) family background had taught him, the manassaakshi would definitely have pointed out the deviation. But the conscious self is capable of silencing and over-ruling the conscience and once this is done then onwards the conscience simply watches and keeps a record.

It sounds as if the above mentioned simple deeds are deemed as 'sinful acts'. Would my 'manasaakshi' keep record everytime I enjoyed a drink of JD? everytime I visited an 'erotic site'? If God reads those records and 'charge me' for that, possibly I may ask God to 'grow up'.

If there is God, God wouldn't give a hoot about anyone's act. My own daughter gives me the 'slip' and goes for partying with her friends... I can only smile about her naughty activities. As of now I haven't become angry with her. I am just a JD drinking simple person.... even I can alow so much freedom for someone to enjoy themselves, how much God should be allowing? Charge sheets, punishments... bit too much!

Cheers!

 

[kiruku]

One current example that comes to my (old man's) mind is how most TB youngsters who migrate to foreign countries (and even those who live in India and move among the nouveau riche society, take to non-vegetarian food, alcoholic drinks, intimately mixing with many boys/girls, etc. I am sure that in all these cases when the person first deviates from what his (orthodox) family background had taught him, the manassaakshi would definitely have pointed out the deviation. But the conscious self is capable of silencing and over-ruling the conscience and once this is done then onwards the conscience simply watches and keeps a record.

The highlighted portion at is the important bit. It is called "values".
We have to understand (may or may not agree), for some, values change over time.

 

[renuka]

yes guru ji i agree with you.

my point is if" manasakshi "works then we don't need such a big infrastructure to uphold law and order. sadly it doesn't work

Dear Sir,

Every human being has a conscience(Manasakshi) but it is just that each person's Manasakshi has its own set of rules and can be very subjective.

What is "virtue" for one might be "sin" for another and vice versa.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

The highlighted portion at is the important bit. It is called "values".
We have to understand (may or may not agree), for some, values change over time.

If one understand the Value of "VALUES" it wont change but if one doesn't understand then it will change. For example, People who understand the Value of non-drinking will never drink, for them the value remains constant. The same goes to other value systems.

The tragedy is people don't understand the Value of "values".

please visit " www.avgsatsang.org" to get more insights...

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