Girl's Education/Employment and Marriage -Evolution -I

[sankara_sharmah]

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A number of posts have been made about the problems in finding a Bride because of Girls having a better education and employment.

It is time we look back to see how this situation has come about.

I only wish I could say that today's girls have better education/employment because the Tamil Brahmins have adapted a liberal attitude towards women.

No. Sir. Our attitude towards Girls have changed slightly. But not that much. Far from it.

Till the late sixties most of our Girls went to college to Graduate. This was dictated by the marriage market to some extent as the Boys wanted educated girls. But the girls were expected to be houswives only. And then what was the chances of a mere graduate in arts or science getting employment? Next to nothing.

This situation changed drastically following the nationaliztion of banks. The Banks went on a massive recruitment. Though the minimum qualification was only SSLC, they preferred graduates. A number of Brahmin Girls got into Banks. The same held good for LIC.

This was the beginning of employed girls. They wrote a competitive examination and got the job.

They also could work near home. Then we all know how the Bank Clerk would disappear to bring the child home from school. Laid back working conditions.

Now those couples where both were working had more money. This led to the marriage market demanding employed Girls. A stage came where no Girl could get a Groom unlesss she was employed.

Then came the explosion of engineering Colleges and also migration overseas. Many of the Boys who had gone abroad for work wanted Girls qualified in Engineering because they could get the Visa easier. So in the marriage market, if a Girl wanted a Groom in U.S, she has to be an engineer. This led to a spurt in the admission of Girls to engineering colleges. There are many Girls who have passed engineering, but are housewives in U.S.

Then the situation in India improved and engineers especially in the software field could get a Good job in India. So more amd more girls poured into Engineering colleges. When we studied Engineering there were hardly any Girls in the college.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Girl's Education/Employment and Marriage -Evolution -II

One of the main reasons for the change is also the continuous propaganda by almost all the magazines in India. They potrayed the housewife as a slave and less than a human being. Girls were exhorted to study and stand on their own legs. This is pseudo-Feminism preached in India. They taught the Girls that no self respecting Girl should be a house wife. The propaganda still continues.

Again the stories about how a Boy who is less qualified would have a problem adjusting to a Girl with higher qualification. Is it a universal truth? I remember the case of one of the girls who got a Ph D long back. Her parents could not get anyone who was of equal qualification, because they did not want Lecturers. Then she got married to a graduate who went on to become the Chairman of one of the biggest companies in India.

The situation has come about because of the attitude of the Parents only. Thinking of Boys as Fixed deposits which would give a good income in the old age and Girls as mere commodities to be traded in the marriage market has landed us in this situation.

When do we learn to treat our children as individuals? Who is going to make up fro the lost child hood of thousands of Boys and Girls. They lost their child hood, their individuality at the altar of the ambition of the Parents.

Thousands of latch-key children are the net effect.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Sri Sankara_sharmah,

I was reading with interest your first post, and I felt here is a realistic presentation of down-to-earth facts, rather than gimmicky statements catering to applauses.

The post signalled to a sequential presentation by logic and reason.

But I felt disappointed when towards the end of second post,when you dropped down exactly contradicting the essence of what was written till then, and it appeared that you fear some opposition to your points ,and want to be on the safer side.

I expected that your posts will have more analytical stuff to continue in more parts.

And, I did not like the mention of the bank clerk bringing child...It was an avoidable "idaicserukal" in an otherwise sober post.


May I add a point that, the concessions and fee waiver given by various institutions and establishments ,and govt - also encouraged parents to allow girls to continue with their education as far as possible,whereas such concessions were not available to boys.

Another factor was the general attitude of families to take the girls', marriage first even though the girl is younger. So in a family where the boy is elder and he has 2 or 3 younger sisters, hi marriage never gets priority, and has to sacrifice himself, (mostly willingly) for the better life of own sisters.

It may be just human nature that after a period of time (may be only in some cases), the fact of sacrifice is best forgotten, and even the parents and the sisters may say, " athu ulagathile ellaarum seyyara kadamai thaane"..

This is only to point that there is no single point / set of persons to be blamed for the present state. It is a compounding of various situations now culminating ,that is all.

But I feel that things may automatically even out.... soon... But in the meantime, interim generation has to bear the brunt, for no fault of theirs..! Like many other sufferings ........


Let us hope for the best and travel on some untravelled paths,relatively amicable and adjustable,for which many suggestions are found in these forums.


Greetings

 

[sangom]

But I felt disappointed when towards the end of second post,when you dropped down exactly contradicting the essence of what was written till then, and it appeared that you fear some opposition to your points ,and want to be on the safer side.

I also felt exactly the same way you did.

There is one more point about girls studying more. I have seen quite a number of housewives who wanted that their daughters should be one step ahead of them, and, some of these mothers were college lecturers, bank employees with M.Sc. or equivalent and others with equally good qualifications and jobs. When the wind started blowing in favour of IT and Engg., they encouraged their daughters to go as high as they could and joining US universities and getting M.S. or Ph. D. became the aim of these girls. I know one or two girls who got married to well-placed boys in the US, completed their studies and then, claiming incompatibility, went for divorce there as well.

Today when the boy is married and ties the "thaali" around the bride's neck, in reality it is he who gets into bondage. There are very few instances where such a bondage does not take place. In shaping households like this, the media plays a very important role. But no youngster will come out openly and admit it, obviously. His silent attitude will be like, "I have my wife's permission to tell you that she does not dominate me!"

Of course, I am not jealous of the empowerment which women have now. Perhaps it is also the historic backlash of women having been kept subjugated in accordance with our Dharmasastras which equated woman and Sudra in several respects.

 

[kunjuppu]

this is the age of righting wrongs and women's opportunities is but one of those long denied rights being restored.

i think, women, are just like us - humans. our mothers, daughters, sisters, colleagues, friends etc. why should we look at them with a diiferent set of scales?

i think, anything the male can do, the female can do, just as well except some physically demanding stuff, and even in many of those, they can match up to most men.

the father who is beaming with pride at the sight of his phd daughter is not here to complain or comment on his daughter's marriage prospects.

on the contrary, it is the father of some choplangi son, who feels cheated out of his son's bride, due to women's upliftment and advancement.

the wise father of aboy, the quicker he realizes the old paradigm has gone forever, the quicker he can adjust his mindset to finding a bride for his son, under new rules.

we comment that the society is such and such, this and that... except we forget that the society is us - you, me and everyone else in this forum.

jai hind?

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Today when the boy is married and ties the "thaali" around the bride's neck, in reality it is he who gets into bondage. There are very few instances where such a bondage does not take place. In shaping households like this, the media plays a very important role. But no youngster will come out openly and admit it, obviously. His silent attitude will be like, "I have my wife's permission to tell you that she does not dominate me!"


எங்க வீட்டிலே என்னிக்குமே தேவி சுப்ரபாதம் தான் .ஹி ஹி eace:

 

[kunjuppu]

எங்க வீட்டிலே என்னிக்குமே தேவி சுப்ரபாதம் தான் .ஹி ஹி eace:

my wife too gave me permission to tell you that i am the boss

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

my wife too gave me permission to tell you that i am the boss

veetuku veetu vaasal padi

 

[tbs]

ho folks,
whole world comodaties based on economics....even human
beings also not exempted.....human life became a commodity
now....the theory is SUPPLY AND DEMAND....once more girls
less boys....now more boys/less girls...personally i have
1 boy/ and 1 girl.... SOMEBODY ASKED ME PLUS OR MINUS..
i said i have 1 plus and 1 minus....now i think i have 2 plus...
somebody asked me UNGA AATHILE CHIDAMBARAMA ALLATHU
MADURAI YAA....means sri nataraja is ruling in chidambaram
than sivkami....but in madurai sri meenakhi rulling not
sundareswarar......... SO I SAID ENGA AATHILE CHIDAMBARAM
THAAN BUT ENGA MAAMIYAAR AATHILE MADURAI THAAN...
so every house ruled by these 2 methods....very rare
like mylapore....like kapaleesswrar equal karpagambal...

regards
tbs

 

[tbs]

hi folks,

just read..........

One in five marriages end in divorce in...


regards
tbs

 

[sankara_sharmah]

The father of a girl who gets a Ph. D is very proud of her achievement. But he is also worried that this would make it more difficult to get her married.

I have neighbour whose only daughter is the Vice president of a MNC. A very successful girl and also a very sweet one. But the Parents know that there is almost no chance of her getting married. The mother cries because there is very little hope of seeing a Grand child.

It may be great to tell others that your son and daughter in law are both senior executives in MNCs. But it hurts to hear your son say that they have no time for a family and have not even thought about it.

You pray that you will see the face of a grand child before you die.

There is a Cost attached to everything. Material and Worldly success. At what cost?

 

[RVR]

hi folks,

just read..........

One in five marriages end in divorce in...


regards
tbs

Divorce rate in India is one of the lowest in the world - Just 1.1% Divorce Rate in India All the best

 

[G. Soundara Rajan]

Namassadhasae.

An excellent nalysis on this topic. Real solution to this issue lies on the reply to the question "whether and when we can go back to the days of limited wants, having housewives (gruheenies) in households, turning to a simplistic life style, seeing in 'The Hindu' matrimonial advts. as "boy drawing four figure/figure salary, looking for a domestic bride" etc or it is a 'கானல் நீர்' (a myth)? It is my wishful thinking that this will happen, but I think most of us will not be in this earth to see the change.

அவரவர் இச்சையில் எவை எவை உற்றவை அவை தருவித்தருள் பெருமாளே!

 

[RVR]

Sri G soundararajan Sir,

Your dream may not come true in this Kali Yugam.

Things will become more complicated in the future.

I think the worst is yet to come

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

i think girls unwilling to marry guys who have lower education than them or earning less than them, is another of our handicaps.

education must be an indicator self fulfilment. ideally. the trouble comes when it is viewed as yet another filter for marriage purpose.

i do not like to compare us with the west, but it is not uncommon here in canada, to see a lady professor married to a cab driver and having a wholesome family.

what they do to earn a living is a factor only outside the house. within the home, if they both possess the love, regard, affection to make a happy household, there should be no problem.

if the total money earned is pooled and divided according to the needs of the family budget, there should be no issue, irrespective of whether the husband earns less or is even unemployed and stays home as a househusband, they can make a very happy household.

education, money earned, etc should be a non issue if the wife earns more or less than the husband. it is all in the mind. i think so anyway.

i believe, we as a community will evolve to accepting this type of arrangement, eventually, when the need to spouse a parnter overwhelms the supposed prevailing society norms of which gender should be the higher income earner etc. all these are false values and have nothing to do with setting up of a happy home.

 

[nachi naga]

i really like older generation method of family life.namely husband working earning while wife takes care of home kids etc.in this system,the competetion was limited and jobs functionality worked.now i feel,women can work and earn and men can take care of family kids.that women compete less in work place.biz houses prefer women,as they are cheaqper to pay for wages,as well easier to manpulate to do chores.less union troubles.

women today are of the concept,i too will work,but then if i want to stop working,then thats my prerogative.if i want i will work otherwise i wont,just to do housekkeping kids etc.roles between spouses undergo gradual changes always.owing to peculiar circumstances,some men do a wonderful job as home makers,imho.

 

[sangom]

i think girls unwilling to marry guys who have lower education than them or earning less than them, is another of our handicaps.

Yes, but on the other hand our boys also are generally reluctant to marry a girl who earns more than he does.

i do not like to compare us with the west, but it is not uncommon here in canada, to see a lady professor married to a cab driver and having a wholesome family.

what they do to earn a living is a factor only outside the house. within the home, if they both possess the love, regard, affection to make a happy household, there should be no problem.

if the total money earned is pooled and divided according to the needs of the family budget, there should be no issue, irrespective of whether the husband earns less or is even unemployed and stays home as a househusband, they can make a very happy household.

education, money earned, etc should be a non issue if the wife earns more or less than the husband. it is all in the mind. i think so anyway.

i believe, we as a community will evolve to accepting this type of arrangement, eventually, when the need to spouse a parnter overwhelms the supposed prevailing society norms of which gender should be the higher income earner etc. all these are false values and have nothing to do with setting up of a happy home.

The West has adjusted to the equality of man and woman in marriage, but it will take another generation more, perhaps, for our youngsters and parents to come to that stage of understanding.

Incidentally, I have a feeling that even in the West when it comes to divorce, it is always the woman who stands to gain, and not the man even if he is poorer as compared to his wife. Am I right?

 

[kunjuppu]

Incidentally, I have a feeling that even in the West when it comes to divorce, it is always the woman who stands to gain, and not the man even if he is poorer as compared to his wife. Am I right?

sangom,

you are right. the law in domestic disputes is biased against the man. this because of historical reasons. many of the men got away with wife beating, avoiding alimony payments and in general leaving the woman/children literally in the middle of the street.

the laws were very mild then, and over the years, the women organized themselves for better succour from the law, and now the pendulum has swung the other way.

for instance an average man with two kids, cannot afford to divorce his wife - with alimony + child support payments, he will not be able to set up even a modest household for himself. the laws are written hard, so that the judge has very leeway, but to impose the harsh penalties.

so, the man, in these societies have to be careful, particularly those earning high incomes - because a wily unscrupulous woman can trap them into a marriage, have a couple of kids, and separate and set themselves for a comfortable living. happened to a friend of mine (a white guy who for 3 years after the split was living from credit card toa new credit card).

 

[sangom]

Defenitely....

As per my findings and analysis on Divorce part, mainly are due to

1) Mis-matching of horoscopes (Nowadays Bhava chart is not analysed. which makes analysis on the characteristics of both of boy and girl, and to be matched accordingly).

Dear Sir,

Since there are many systems of Bhava determination, I would like to know which one you think, from your experience, is most accurate and helpful, B.V. Raman's system, equal house (30 degrees) division with Lagna as starting point or the equal house system with Lagna as the mid-point?

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Defenitely....

Above are some of reasons, leading to divorce
Feb 2009 Malai Malar had an article on % of divorce in Chennai Court, where 7500 apply for divorce in chennai city yearly, out of which 45% were brahmins and mostly in IT field...

any comments ????

Very disturbing. But I am not surprised.

Please look at the advertisements in the Hindu. Many other castes ask for religious, religiously inclined girls. Brahmins never do.

I was warned that it would be a waste of money to put such a condition because I would never get a reply.

 

[Raghy]

greetings to all.

45% Brahmins applying for a divorce is very disturbing indeed. In my opinion, while most middle class girls/boys grew up with liberal values, that may not be the reason for the divorce rate. Most boys/men do not understand about women's liberal values (including me). The boys/men are expected to stand on certain principles like a rock' flexibility will not be tolerated. It is up to the boys/men to find out the requirements. Unfortunately, there is no fixed formulae for this. This varies from girl to girl. Youngsters lack exposure in this regard. Personally I would suggest any youngster to study psychology before entering in to a marriage (I was suggested to take a dive in the nearest river when I suggested this). My logic was simple..for a paltry employment, which we change like a shirt (at least, I do), we spend somany years to qualify; so, how much time should we spend to ascertain a proper life time match? We are not spending enough time, we are under prepared, we have high expectations and we are manipulated many persons. Considering all these misgivings, I am suprised with the rate of success!

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...45% Brahmins applying for a divorce is very

No Raghy, it seems it is 45% of divorce applications are from Brahmins.

Divorce is not necessarily a bad thing. If things do not work out it is better to get out than to endure daily suffering.

The idea that marriage is between two happy families is a myth.

In an earlier era marriages took place within the family. Uncle marrying nieces and cousins marrying, etc., were very common. When a marriage was outside the family it was from a close family friend. In the cases where it is between unrelated and previously unknown families, the ensuing relationship was often asymmetric, with the girl's family ever subservient to the boy's family.

This marriage being between two families mind-set, or expectation, is probably a major reason for TB girls shunning TB boys preferring non-conventional marriages, or increasing incidence of divorces, if indeed these are true.

... Unfortunately, there is no fixed formulae for this.

How about some lagna lord, navamsa chart, and dasangam smoke, that is sure to help, no ? :eyebrows:

 

[nachi naga]

The lagna lord or lagneshan or a navamsha chart and dasamsha ,give guideline,like in management text book.Now if all management gurus of Harvard or Memphis State or Carnegie Melon ..are so stupendous,why is USA undergoing such high rate of unemployment?why do election get rigged in USA?as in 2000?despite proclaiming being a stupendos democracy?in fact invading Iraq on this pre-text?After 8 years of CIA,Naval Intelligence,MI6 or....al-qaeda leaders are still operating.

Israel is a convenient smokescreen,to divert attention.Poor jews,wonder when anti-semeitists will let them live in peace.Similiar plight of Brahmins in India,being persecuted relentlessly.Depression of success,as i see it.

girls are economically independent now.that by itself,is a huge relief.the need not live under any macho-men imagery anymore.caste is losing its lustre too.finally people are seeing,only two species exist or two caste exist as human race,a woman and a man.thats al is needed to beginwith to start a progeny or relationship.compatibility is scrutinised using one of the limbs of vedas,namely jyotisham.if the practioner is in-experianced,why blame the science?

 

[Somayaji.S]

Sangom:-(quote)with M.Sc. or equivalent and others with equally good qualifications and jobs. When the wind started blowing in favour of IT and Engg., they encouraged their daughters to go as high as they could and joining US universities and getting M.S. or Ph. D. became the aim of these girls. I know one or two girls who got married to well-placed boys in the US, completed their studies and then, claiming incompatibility, went for divorce there as well.(en-quote)

A very large number of Tamil Brahmin and N.B. girls with B.E.-D.D.S(dentistry)-M.S--M.D.(USA)--Ph.D are working in USA,(occupying very High and Very important positons) married living very happily with their husbands,parents-in-law for about 15+ years with a Couple of children(ABCD=American Born Confused Desi),-diverse and all only in Sivasankari/s Novels--every week end going to Hindu Temples,driving 60 miles,waiting for 60 minutes and eating Chennai Saravana Hotel meals--the girls'mothers pestering and succeefuly getting for "Mangaiyar Malar"/Kumudam/Kalki at a whooping price of Rs.150 per copy($ 3/=)--Leading TOP Super Class Gynecologists,Neurologists,Nephrologists,Endocrinologists--Well known University Science Professors,Certified Public Accountants(CPA eq to Indian C.A.) are are all TUMBLER Brahmin Ladies only.Without Tamil Brahmin Ladies Micro-soft(MS)>seatle,Hewlett Packard>carvallis,I.B.M (Carry) all will go out of business.They influence Italian,British,White South African American Ladies to wear Sarres,see Bharatha Natyam, Eat Avial,Idli with craze--Subramanya Bharathi will be the happiest man today.

 

[nachi naga]

A very large number of Tamil Brahmin and N.B. girls with B.E.-D.D.S(dentistry)-M.S--M.D.(USA)--Ph.D are working in USA,(occupying very High and Very important positons) married living very happily with their husbands,parents-in-law for about 15+ years with a Couple of children(ABCD=American Born Confused Desi),-diverse and all only in Sivasankari/s Novels--every week end going to Hindu Temples,driving 60 miles,waiting for 60 minutes and eating Chennai Saravana Hotel meals--the girls'mothers pestering and succeefuly getting for "Mangaiyar Malar"/Kumudam/Kalki at a whooping price of Rs.150 per copy($ 3/=)--Leading TOP Super Class Gynecologists,Neurologists,Nephrologists,Endocrinologists--Well known University Science Professors,Certified Public Accountants(CPA eq to Indian C.A.) are are all TUMBLER Brahmin Ladies only.Without Tamil Brahmin Ladies Micro-soft(MS)>seatle,Hewlett Packard>carvallis,I.B.M (Carry) all will go out of business.They influence Italian,British,White South African American Ladies to wear Sarres,see Bharatha Natyam, Eat Avial,Idli with craze--Subramanya Bharathi will be the happiest man today.

somayaji

so nice to let all know,the diversity in american lives.the freedom enjoyed in usa is as good or as bad in india,i guess.export is a good biz,when its a two way street.as far as i know,indians export more than they import from usa.usa is indias largest trading partner.

girl's education has improved lives,namely quality of it.of what use is it,living married,when happiness is a truant thing.so educated girls opt out of marriage.not all educated do this option too.some like tradition,and take it as a challenge,to reform the husbands to be productive too,using their educational skills.

i think,tamil brahmin girls or brahmin girls in general are awesome and so are the boys/men too.as a community,we rock.