Education in Ancient India

[sangom]

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"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." It means that things always seem better elsewhere.

I do not know the French society before revolution, and not enough royalty were left to defend their culture, History is written by the victors.
We know a lot of revolution that produced the wrong results.
Ayatolla Iran. Cultral revolution in China, Khemar rouge in Combodia, etc.

A gradual change from within is better method for the life of people like us.
Look at the industrial revolution, or DotCom revolution etc.

Prasad,

I think you are deviating from the topic, slithering away. Anyway, please don't compare the incomparables;The Ayatollah Iran and Khmer rouge in Cambodia were not revolutions for bringing egalitarian society. They wanted to bring in a society strictly following the Shariat - and that too as per the ayatollah's interpretation - in Iran, and Khmer rouge, though initially an attempt to bring in communism, got extremely vitiated due to several extraneous factors like anti-vietnamism, and, imo, the cruelty trait of its leaders including Pol Pot. But the cultural revolution in China has been termed as a 'grave' left error. Even if all three were bad, that does not disprove the history of French Revolution and its aftermath (written by the victors - in a revolution normally there are no victors, but only revolutionaries and the rest), which is that the western society 'leaped' virtually into a modern era after that revolution.

I do not know what you are referring to by "the industrial revolution"; the dot com revolution went bust, did it not?

 

[prasad1]

Most products people in the industrialized nations use today are turned out swiftly by the process of mass production, by people (and sometimes, robots) working on assembly lines using power-driven machines. People of ancient and medieval times had no such products. They had to spend long, tedious hours of hand labor even on simple objects. The energy, or power, they employed in work came almost wholly from their own and animals' muscles. The Industrial Revolution is the name given the movement in which machines changed people's way of life as well as their methods of manufacture.

Industrial Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But by the summer of 1793, when the Jacobins had reorganized the Committee and effectively controlled the government, the revolutionaries were exhibiting a political ruthlessness unlike any seen before. As they set out to eliminate their enemies, they seemed to follow the cynical imperative coined at the time: "Be my friend, or I will kill you."
It was during the Reign of Terror, 1793-1794, that revolutionary tribunals meted out hasty justice. Opponents of the regime, revolutionaries themselves, fell beneath the blade of the guillotine. This was the awful period in which "the Revolution devoured its own." Some eleven thousand individuals died as enemies of the state, and their deaths added up to a new, horrendous activity of modern Western civilization: institutionalized violence, the harsh elimination of political opposition by the state. Later, Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany would cause the figures of the French Revolution to seem small.

The French revolution is more romantic than real. Look at the euro trouble. The whole Europe except may be Germany is a basket case, So every revolution goes trough its cycle.

Europe in Retropsect: The French Revolution - Phases of the Revolution


Every revolution ends in burst, because it has run its course. It leaves a legacy in its wake. The explosion of information, Internet, mobile phone are legacy of the dot-com era. It might have bust financially for some companies or their share holders, but dot-com revolution touched more people than any other revolution.

 

[prasad1]

Sangom Sir,
You are right we are deviating from the topic. Sorry

 

[kunjuppu]

Prasad,

i reed your post #27.

i would still insist there was nothing 'gradual' in the process known as industrial revolution. it was a shock.

just like what we are experiencing in india today. the manu smrithi rules turned topsy turvy. the brahmins given the kicks and the other castes on the rise. the dalits asserting themselves.

thanks to an inherent tolerance exhibited by the dalits and lower castes, the brahmins have not only prospered, but managed to get away without being punished like the 1st and 2nd estate of france. none of us lost our heads. indian revolution, including the dravidian one, has been peaceful, but completely overturned the ancien regime and its power brokers. not gradual again. started when dmk got elected feb 1967 and within a generation, the new classes have asserted themselves in all walks of tamil nadu life. what a change!!

ultimately it all comes to an issue of money. for the seller, he does not care who buys his house or apt. just the highest bidder. in fact many of the agraharams of palghat are now mixed. i was told that it is the same situation in thanjavur. there are simply not enough brahmins to form a community or to sell/buy off each other. economics and lifestyle living apparently is stronger than need to stick to one's own caste or creed.

re french revolution, it is an apparent, that the shock inflicted on the french society, still reverberates....

 

[suraju06]

Kunjuppu in post #4:

re periyar, 98% of tamils view him as a reformer. over the

What a gem of a statistics here!! Take hundred and subtract the 2% representing brahmins and you get 98% and flaunt it as the section of the Tamil population who are admirers of a controversial personality like Ramaswamy Naicker. There are any number of NBs who consider EVR as a charlatan and hypocrat. Outside the Dravidian parties he does not command much respect(Congress, Communist and PMK) and they are not such a small negligible minority as is made out here. Kunjuppu, You may be an admirer of EVR but please do not allow your enthusiasm for hero worship to make you blind to reason.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Kunjuppu in post #29:

indian revolution, including the dravidian one, has been peaceful, but completely overturned the ancien regime and its power brokers. not gradual again. started when dmk got elected feb 1967 and within a generation, the new classes have asserted themselves in all walks of tamil nadu life. what a change!!

The dravidian revolution was nothing but a charade. If it was really a revolution as you want us to believe, there would have been no Keelvenmony, there would have been no Vachathi, there would have been no two tumbler system still prevalent in places like Vasudevanallur or the wall of Uthapuram. You have said "the new classes have asserted themselves in all walks of life". Please visit the villages and see the areas inhabited by the SCs and STs(they still live in Cheries only). All that the so called "revolution" did was to confirm the position of the economically, politically and numerically powerful middle castes as the masters of everything relegating others to abysmally pathetic conditions. It still goes on post Mandal (if constitution/Supreme Court says 50% is the maximum reasonable reservation limit, pass a special legislation using the brute majority of these middle caste agglomerate to overcome that- because ultimately what matters is that this group should remain satisfied). And we have people like Kunjuppu to applaud and cry Jai ho without any hesitation. Some social justice this!!

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear suraju,

i can understand your disagreement. i think any self serving tambram has it in his bones to dislike periyar, the dravidian reformation and
and above all the concept of reservation.

all these means, a slipping and sliding of our exalted positions socially from the framework of tamil nadu. it hurts.

but it cannot be denied, that in the overall picture of things, status and life has improved for a large mass of tamil folks, thanks to
reservations and help from the government.

today, it is no longer de facto tambram, when someone is termed as a madrasi. today, a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer can be
anyone in tamil nadu.

why, i even love to go to a temple, get served by a NB priest, qualified and knows the right prayers. in tamil.

what is so wrong in not applauding such social justice?

as exclusive 'guardians' and admins, we had a good time. for a long time. but even the most intelligent among us, did not prepare the
next generation for a decent and gradual sharing of power.

power corrupts.

absolute power corrupts absolutely. tambrams of the 1950s/60s in power, were as stupid as corrupt. they did not think of the future
and the writings on the wall. to them, the immediate post independence windfall, would appear to last forever. no one understood
democracy. why would they? they were after all, sons and daughters of manu.

welcome back dear friend. you were away for a while. hope all is well suraju

 

[கால பைரவன்]

tambrams of the 1950s/60s in power, were as stupid as corrupt. they did not think of the future and the writings on the wall. to them, the immediate post independence windfall, would appear to last forever. no one understood
democracy. why would they? they were after all, sons and daughters of manu

But Kunjuppu, who is also a son of Manu, is able to understand! How come?!

 

[Nara]

... the brahmins given the kicks and the other castes on the rise. the dalits asserting themselves.

K, here is a case of what can happen if the locals are helped to rise above their caste feelings that is a gift from Brahminism, The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Uthapuram Dalits enter temple after more than two decades. It is the secular forces who brought the two sides together and worked it out, no thanks to the apologists of Brahminism. The most distressing irony of ironies is the nerve of the Brahminists putting all the responsibility of the atrocities committed on the basis of the brahminical concept of jAti upon NBs, who happen to be their own fellow brahminists -- so very Brahminical!!!

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

i can understand your disagreement. i think any self serving tambram has it in his bones to dislike periyar, the dravidian reformation and and above all the concept of reservation.

all these means, a slipping and sliding of our exalted positions socially from the framework of tamil nadu. it hurts.

According to Kunjuppu, a brahmin who questions EVR does so because he is self-serving!

By the same token, can it be said that those who revere EVR and those who see nothing wrong in discrimination of brahmins and those who are only happy to see hatred directed towards brahmins, do so only because their progeny and themselves do not have to endure it?! Most of these people, after all, do not live in TN or even in India.

What is good for the goose must be good for the gander. n'est-ce pas?!

 

[prasad1]

I am not very familiar with TN politics. There has been revival in India of all caste. But there is also economic revival that superseded the caste system. Caste is purely used for getting votes. money, or power. But look at the economic revivals.
Do you ask Birlas, Tatas, Premji, or Ambanies as to how they became so powerful? Where brahmins keeping them down? The reasons for failure are many, the reason for success is hard work and ingenuity.

The truly poor people have been poor irrespective of caste. In spite of the so called revolutions it did not improve the extreme poverty of people of all caste.
I have seen Brahmins and other caste people dying of hunger. It is sad that people who feel that brahminism is the cause of poverty in India are not doing anything. They think that blaming events that they think happened is going to provide that dying person some food. Dream on brother.

Nitish Kumar, modi, or Manmohan singh are not Brahmin. Bhindra our gold medal winner is not Brahmin. None of the cricketers are selected because of their caste. Why this obsession with caste in this site.

 

[kunjuppu]

According to Kunjuppu, a brahmin who questions EVR does so because he is self-serving!

By the same token, can it be said that those who revere EVR and those who see nothing wrong in discrimination of brahmins and those who are only happy to see hatred directed towards brahmins, do so only because their progeny and themselves do not have to endure it?! Most of these people, after all, do not live in TN or even in India.

What is good for the goose must be good for the gander. n'est-ce pas?!

bhairavan,

racial memories are long and real/imagined insults to the ancestors brings out an anger and indignation that we are only too familiar.

have you not seen the anger and hatred instilled in some posts at the mention of hindu temples razed by muslim invaders. the very mention of somnathpur is enough to boil many blood here.

so too, the dalits, only recently somewhat liberated, increasingly remember and rage over the historic wrongs done to them. the dalits,inspite of the immediate insults they may face, with OBC, gang up with the same against the brahmins. to them, the revival of hindutva philosophy appears to be a revival of the exclusion of the panchamars from the society. the fear is real.

compared to that, 40 years of being sidelined for government preference is nothing. you have prospered. so have i and most of our community, inspite of quotas. thanks to a growing economy and more avenues, especially abroad opening up. no matter what, tambrams would have taken this anyway, to desk jobs in tamil nadu government. the signs were already there since 1950s, when we shunned jobs in tamil nadu for better paying jobs in bombay and the north. later we moved abroad. now the circle is being completed. we are trickling back to tamil nadu, but i think there is net departure still.

bhairavan, i think, we need to have some empathy, to step into the shoes of the dalits of 100 years ago, and our own ancestor's status then. in order to understand the feudal mentality bestowed on both. otherwise, we have no hope of ever living in any part of india, without tension. which is one reason maybe, that our children are abandoning our caste, going for ic and ir marriages. please give this some thought.

thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

K, here is a case of what can happen if the locals are helped to rise above their caste feelings, a gift from Brahminism, The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Uthapuram Dalits enter temple after more than two decades. It is the secular forces who brought the two sides together and worked it out, no thanks to the apologists of Brahminism. The most distressing irony of ironies is the nerve of the Brahminists putting all the responsibility of the atrocities committed on the basis of the brahminical concept of jAti upon NBs, who happen to be their own fellow brahminists -- so very Brahminical!!!

Cheers!

Huge thanks to the CPI(M), Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Police and everyone who made it happen. May they be blessed in every way..

Incidentally, Muthalamman is the same as Muthyalamma, considered a form of Maha Kali. Muthyalmmam is unique in the fact that a range of communities worship her, from tribals to brahmins.

 

[suraju06]

Refer to post #34:

K, here is a case of what can happen if the locals are helped to rise above their caste feelings, a gift from Brahminism, The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Uthapuram Dalits enter temple after more than two decades. It is the secular forces who brought the two sides together and worked it out, no thanks to the apologists of Brahminism. The most distressing irony of ironies is the nerve of the Brahminists putting all the responsibility of the atrocities committed on the basis of the brahminical concept of jAti upon NBs, who happen to be their own fellow brahminists -- so very Brahminical!!!

Kunjuppu,

If I have a wonder medicine to resurrect the fellow who first discovered the use of gunpowder to accelerate a projectile, do you know what I will do? I will resurrect him, bring him back to life an infinite number of times and torture him and kill him again and again. As far as I am concerned, he deserves the punishment again and again and again. What you think about me or what the world thinks about me is immaterial. I have gone nuts already and I just do not bother. You must note one important thing-that I do not speak against the users of the gun in the present world. They kill because the dynamics of the exploding gun powder accelerates the projectile. They are all innocent angels. My anger is only against the original sinner.

I hope you understand the context of my rejoinder above. Peace.

Now coming to some specifics: Please note the following highlighted info from The Hindu and my comments in blue. Please draw your own conclusions:

1. The Dalits of Uthapuram village near here, where the ‘untouchability' wall was demolished in 2008, on Thursday entered a temple under the control of the upper caste Hindus, with police protection.
What was the need for police protection if there was a change of mind that too after 3 long years when the state was ruled by anti brahminist Dravidian revolutionaries?

2. the scene was marred by the loud wails of women from the nearby streets, who were opposed to the entry of Dalits to their temple
Does it mean that you have only to wait for some time to hear the news that the wall has been rebuilt.

3. The priest performed ‘puja' and ‘deeparathana,' even as Madurai (Rural) Superintendent of Police Asra Garg, along with a huge posse of policemen, waited outside the temple. This happened in the first week of Nov. 2011
In Nov 2011 well after a Brahmin became the Chief Minister of the state.

4. The Communist Party of India (Marxist), instrumental in demolishing the wall that divided the Dalits from the upper caste Hindus, hailed the temple entry as a “historic” event.
Where did the Dravidian parties go? They could have once again flayed the ‘ brahminism’ for the wall.

5.Meanwhile, Vishwa Hindu Parishad district president Chinmaya Somasundaram and his long-time friend and former Aavin general manager K. Athimoolam, who had relatives on both sides, began fresh negotiations between the Dalits and the upper caste Hindus.
So we needed not only the push from a Brahmin CM but also a Brahmin led organization to negotiate with dalits. This speaks volumes for the camaraderie that is claimed to exist between the middle castes and the dalits against the ‘common enemy’ Brahmins.
Prejudices manifest in strangest of ways indeed!
Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Kunjuppu, your post #37:

so too, the dalits, only recently somewhat liberated, increasingly remember and rage over the historic wrongs done to them. the dalits,inspite of the immediate insults they may face, with OBC, gang up with the same against the brahmins. to them, the revival of hindutva philosophy appears to be a revival of the exclusion of the panchamars from the society. the fear is real

.

Kunjuppu, your understanding of present Tamilnadu, being a product of your deducting intelligence, is far away from reality. I have many friends and there are many dalits among them. They all say only one thing about brahmins-that they are funny loonies living in their own world of Acharam, madi, religious belief etc., They are harmless and friendly to dalits. It is the middle castes who are the fly in the ointment. They spoil everything for every one else in the society. Please come to India from the comfort of the breeze that comes from Ontario lake and visit a few Cheries(the breeze here comes with the suffocating odour of human excreta) or meet a few employees working in the Govt., Banks, Insurance Companies, or IT. It will be quite revealing and may demolish some of your pet conclusions.

 

[suraju06]

Kunjuppu your post #32:

i can understand your disagreement. i think any self serving tambram has it in his bones to dislike periyar, the dravidian reformation and and above all the concept of reservation.all these means, a slipping and sliding of our exalted positions socially from the framework of tamil nadu. it hurts.

I object to your typecasting/labeling me without having adequate info about me. In your judgment any one who does not accept that there was a great revolution by dravidians is a self-serving TB who is bound to dislike EVR. I have different views about this assertion by you.

but it cannot be denied, that in the overall picture of things, status and life has improved for a large mass of tamil folks, thanks to reservations and help from the government.today, it is no longer de facto tambram, when someone is termed as a madrasi. today, a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer can be

Status and life has improved because of many other important reasons. The technological development, the info explosion etc have all played a major role in this. I object to your giving credit to the wrong people for all this prosperity.

why, i even love to go to a temple, get served by a NB priest, qualified and knows the right [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]prayers[/FONT][/FONT]. in tamil.

There are many such temples and there are many people visiting such temples. You may choose to go exclusively to these temple alone if you want. But there is no need to make a virtue of your action.

what is so wrong in not applauding such social justice?

There is nothing wrong per se. But I won't call it social justice.

as exclusive 'guardians' and admins, we had a good time. for a long time. but even the most intelligent among us, did not prepare the next generation for a decent and gradual sharing of power. power corrupts.absolute power corrupts absolutely. tambrams of the 1950s/60s in power, were as stupid as corrupt. they did not think of the future and the writings on the wall. to them, the immediate post independence windfall, would appear to last forever. no one understood democracy. why would they? they were after all, sons and daughters of manu.

What a way to look at things!! We were not exclusive guardians or admins. We had only as good a time as the majority of the population had at that time. Power was in the hands of others not brahmins. TBs of the 1950/60s were neither corrupt nor stupid. They were enlightened souls and that is why they brought the reservation into the constitution. It is not democracy which we have : it is majorityism ruling the country.

welcome back dear friend. you were away for a while. hope all is well suraju

I was not away. I am not able to post as frequently as I would like because of time constraint. How is the breeze from the lake Ontario. Here, after a noisy bout of mutual election time accusations politicians have settled down to play their usual games again.

Cheers

Cheers.​

 

[prasad1]

Raju sir,
I admire your tensity, and perseverance, in spite of repeated blows you seem to coming up and defending your position. Thanks for a refreshing opinion among the usual din.