Dravida agenda and the Brahmana women

[mrifan]

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Decision by the Supreme Court reinforces this agenda

Hi,
Thanks for bringing this as a seperate issue.
Please also recollect that, in an intercaste marriage, the kid takes the caste of the father and not the mother. So it is very clear that their intertest is to eliminate brahmins, by targetting only males.
Only when we wake up things are going to improve.

The following article reinforces the above fact. The very taxes and hard work that Brahmana men put in are used to pay the politicians and judges who have put in place rewards for Brahmana women to marry so-called "backward" males, while putting in place penalties for "backward" women to marry Brahmana men.

I think people should be very clear that Brahmana men are the targets of all these "social justice" programs, and they need to spread awareness on this issue to other members. Only awareness can save the Brahmanas from oblivion.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070214/asp/jamshedpur/story_7390821.asp


Koda govt follows SC quota seal
OUR CORRESPONDENT

Legal breather

Jamshedpur, Feb. 13: The tribal community has welcomed the state government’s decision to withdraw reservation benefits to offsprings of a non-tribal father and a tribal mother.​

Principal secretary of the personnel department Mukhtiar Singh has issued an order to this effect to all principal secretaries, secretaries, divisional commissioners, departmental heads and deputy commissioners.​

The decision has been taken in the wake of the Supreme Court’s verdict on a civil appeal (in the Anjan Kumar vs Government of India case), which says that the offsprings of a forward caste Hindu father and a Scheduled Tribe/Scheduled Caste mother can neither claim for SC/ST status nor can they get government jobs under the reserved category.​

“The state government, after reviewing the SC order, decided to change the earlier system wherein such an offspring would enjoy the status/benefits of STs/SCs. The order has been implemented with immediate effect,” Singh said in the letter.​

Welcoming the decision, Adivasi Adhikar Morcha leader Salkhan Murmu said this was in conformity with the traditional patriarchial system in India.​

“This is a fair decision based on customs and traditions of the Indian society wherein children get the name of their father,” Murmu told The Telegraph.​

He said the decision will help protect the identity of tribals since there have been several instances in Lohardaga and Gumla where a non-tribal married a tribal girl eyeing her land, and then dumped her. The decision, he said, will put a check on this practice.​

Another senior tribal leader Ram Dayal Munda said this was a welcome step on the part of the state government.​

“The decision is in tune with social customs and traditions. All those who believe in tradition should welcome this decision,” he said.​

He said cases of non-tribal men marrying tribal women has been on the rise for the last few years. “There are several cases of mass marriages where it is portrayed as if the tribal girl was being ‘upgraded’. Similarly many tribal girls who get educated and are well-off often find it difficult to get a match from their community and so they marry non-tribal men,” Munda added.​

According to Munda, the decision will go a long way in protecting the interests of the tribal community, which is already facing a threat to its survival.​

 

[kspv]

Chitpavan Brahmins

One interesting tit-bit with respect to Kashyap's posting @ #23:

Chitpavan Brahmins were originally from either West Asia or Eastern Europe, as concluded from their DNA haplotype anaysis. They were most probably ship-wrecked Jews off the west-coast of India, and converted to Brahminism as recently as 13th Century A.D. They were at the forefront of revolutionary terrorism and nihilism (= made good suicide-bombers) during the time of India's Independence Struggle. For example, Wikipedia's Chitpavan page include under famous Chitpavans, the name of Nathuram Godse with the words "martyr and patriot" in the brackets. Incidentally, Tushar Gandhi, the grandson of Shri.M.K.Gandhi describes the assasination of his grandfather as a Chitpavan Brahmin plot (and forgets that many Chitpavan Brahmins, such as Gopala Krishna Gokhale, were M.K.Gandhi's mentors and associates).

Wikipedia's description of a Chitpavan Brahmin's looks & temparament (probably written by a Chitpavan Brahmin):

"...A typical Chitpavan is usually fair of complexion, has a sharp nose and steel-grey eyes. He can be called handsome. Nanasaheb Peshwa (18th century), from a portrait that is available, may be called best specimen of Chitpavan manhood. Nanasaheb's son Vishwasrao, when 18, was killed in the Third Battle of Panipat (1761). Kashiraj has described him as the most handsome among the Marathas; even in death he looked so handsome that Ahmedshah Abdali ordered his dead body to be brought before him - in order to have a look at his handsome person.

The Chitpavans cannot be classed among the well-built communities of Maharashtra. Chitpavan girls possess good physical features but tend to look pale. A few historians and anthropologists are of the view that the Chitpavans came to India from Egypt, while others say they came from Greece.

The Chitpavans are generally extremists, hence their behaviour is full of contradiction. A Chitpavan may sacrifice his life for his country but he will not easily part with his purse. That is why perhaps the Chitpavan community has produced a number of fanatics but only one saint, Vinobha Bhave. Chitpavan's are generally assumed to be tidy, clean and industrious..."

 

[kudumi]

Shame on us.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/feb/16francois.htm

Kashyap,
Thanks for both the links. I read through the rediff post, but have to go through the other links. I am kinda tied up with lot of work. I can't even continue my postings about untouchability in Hinduism.

I very vaguely remember studying about the destruction of Nalanda in history books. But mostly about Tipu Sultan, Haider ali, British etc.

I have read "The Discovery of India", for a few pages, and from what I could infer, the author sounds like ..Vedas and Upanishads were nothing but a bunch of incomprehensible blabber, which the author ( of the scriptures) himself does not understand.

But I wanted to know what existed in great universities like Nalanda, and Chanakya's university stuff like that and where they are now.

We used to read Amar Chitra Katha books and they give some information. But I dont know if they can be considered as history books.

But one thing is certain... from Gautier's extensive research, we dont even know the tip of the iceberg.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Taxila University.

In ancient India, Taxila University was the foremost among seats of higher learning besides Universities at Nalanda & Avantika. These universities specialised in Hindu scriptures and later, on Budhism studies.

Present day Taxila University is in Pakistan and they do have a website which gives some information about its glorious past.


I could not find details on Nalanda University though Bihar Govt. does run a Univ. at Nalanda.

About Avantika (present day Ujjain in MP) , I am yet to research further.

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

From across the gender divide ...

I read some of the posts about Brahmana women and felt I needed to speak up from across the gender divide.
I think (a) there IS a political agenda on behalf of the DK/DMK/PMK cohort to take Brahmin women (b) the law and order situation has broken down to a point where we can no longer count on the fact that our women are safe.

I can personally attest to instances when my friends and I were assaulted on the streets (of Chennai), when walking home from school. Typically some "rowdie element" would come racing on a bike (seemingly from nowhere) and hit us, or touch us inappropriately. Rest assured the "cheap thrills" were all his - we simply felt angry, violated and mortified. We soon learnt to keep an eye-and-ear alert for such behavior.
I will also (despite the risk of shocking you) attest to the fact that I was once very-nearly-molested by our Mudaliar landlord's son. He was in his mid-late 20s and I barely 7 - so don't tell me I invited it!
I simply had good sense to know something was amiss, and I ran out into the street - through a rear-door (which was open by God's grace).

I think part of our problem as a community is that we refuse to talk about such things. We are too easily shocked, and too easily scandalized. We need to wake up to the fact that we no longer live in an agraharam - and SO we need to reorient our thinking. Parents need to sit down and talk to their daughters about such things, and always keep a vigilant eye over them.

Regarding Brahmin women marrying across caste-lines: this issue is a very complex one, and the reasons vary. As someone pointed out, the Brahmin community is very stratified. We have prominent business families (or Mirasdars of yore), we have regular middle-class brahmins, and we have archakas,bhattars and vadyars and these constitute largely endogamous groups. In addition to this, we are further stratified in terms of NRI, the Delhi/Mumbai/Kolkata diaspora, the Chennai brahmins, the brahmins from provincial towns, those in the armed services and then those in rural areas. Now each group has its attendant snobbery and perception of the other groups - and it is in this context that you need to evaluate the Brahmin woman's choice. Also bear in mind that any given woman does not have infinite choice. She chooses from an available set of options - and this is a very important fact!
Now, marriages come in different forms: (i) marriage can be an alliance between two families (typical of royals & business houses), (ii) marriage as a partnership, to raise children and share fortunes (or misfortunes!), (iii) marriage for love (whatever it may be, which we hope will endure through life's trials and tribulations!), and (iv) marriage of convenience/expedience.
I will give you three examples that come readily to mind.
(i) an acquaintance from school years, born into a very prominent Iyengar family opted to marry a non-Brahmin actor turned politician. But as they say politics makes strange bed-fellows - perhaps this was "marriage as an alliance"
(ii) a room-mate at a hostel in a national laboratory - married a well educated colleague from a non-Brahmin family. She was well educated (M.Sc M.Tech), but came from very humble beginnings, her father was retired, and she was one of six daughters. I think she was being practical - and my heart goes out to her. Dare I respectfully ask how many of you Brahmin men would seek out a woman like her, and offer your hand in marriage ?
(iii) a relative - a child amongst twelve, daughter of a widow, state-topper, climbs to dizzying heights in her career in the US, and marries a non-Brahmin from her state - Limited options ? Belief in equality ? Easy choice ?
What are Brahmin men willing to do for women like (ii) & (iii) ???
I would like to hear.

 

[mrifan]

Awareness and unity necessary

I think (a) there IS a political agenda on behalf of the DK/DMK/PMK cohort to take Brahmin women (b) the law and order situation has broken down to a point where we can no longer count on the fact that our women are safe.

Especially since the **KKK parties have formulated policies which target primarily Brahmana men, I think it is time for Brahmana parents to talk to their daughters as soon as they become teenagers, and inculcate a sense of tradition and Brahmana roots in them.

I can personally attest to instances when my friends and I were assaulted on the streets (of Chennai), when walking home from school. Typically some "rowdie element" would come racing on a bike (seemingly from nowhere) and hit us, or touch us inappropriately. Rest assured the "cheap thrills" were all his - we simply felt angry, violated and mortified. We soon learnt to keep an eye-and-ear alert for such behavior.

Chennai and Delhi are especially bad in this respect. Particularly in Delhi and some other North Indian cities, I have heard that women need a male relative or husband to accompany them in public to be safe. Most of the rowdies in Chennai get their inspiration from movies where the women are harassed and abused by the "hero". In fact, they will pay double or even triple the ticket price to be the first to learn the new techniques in the latest movie.

In general, this is what I referred to previously as the total breakdown in values and culture in Chennai and other places in TN. The uncomfortably close nexus between the crass film industry and the politicians who arose from that cesspool is responsible for the total lack of high morals and values in society. Barring the Brahmanas, there is really no culture left in Chennai. Everytime I visit Chennai it is beginning to look more and more like the crack ghettos in the Bronx or Harlem in NY (I have seen those places) with a set of quota-candidates sitting as a group at street corners and passing lewd comments at women or laughing with glee all the time. I have always been puzzled as to the source of this enormous mirth that overflows from every pore on their face. There were a few teenage schoolboys outside my house sniffing glue recently in Chennai, and when I went to shoo them away, they pulled out a knife.

If one were to go to Pachaiyappa's in Kilpauk, or New College in Royapettah, one would know what I talking about. It is completely filled with those kinds of animals, who after graduation will use their quota certificates to end up as bus conductors, political workers, cine extras, goondas, corrupt policemen, tea shop or retail workers, auto drivers, and carry the rot everywhere into society.

I will also (despite the risk of shocking you) attest to the fact that I was once very-nearly-molested by our Mudaliar landlord's son. He was in his mid-late 20s and I barely 7 - so don't tell me I invited it!
I simply had good sense to know something was amiss, and I ran out into the street - through a rear-door (which was open by God's grace).

Brahmana parents really need to watch over their daughters, because of the utter moral degradation brought about by these **KKK pagutharivu leaders who are dishonest, corrupt, openly have multiple wives and bastard children, and in general share a lot of similarities with their African brothers in places like Congo, or the Carribbean, or Harlem.

(ii) a room-mate at a hostel in a national laboratory - married a well educated colleague from a non-Brahmin family. She was well educated (M.Sc M.Tech), but came from very humble beginnings, her father was retired, and she was one of six daughters. I think she was being practical - and my heart goes out to her. Dare I respectfully ask how many of you Brahmin men would seek out a woman like her, and offer your hand in marriage ?
(iii) a relative - a child amongst twelve, daughter of a widow, state-topper, climbs to dizzying heights in her career in the US, and marries a non-Brahmin from her state - Limited options ? Belief in equality ? Easy choice ?
What are Brahmin men willing to do for women like (ii) & (iii) ???
I would like to hear.

I think it is clear that in the second case, it should have been possible to find a Brahmana man if the search could have been continued for some more time, particularly now that there is increasing access to the Internet in India. Unless there is a major imbalance in the male/female ratio, and assuming that in general Brahmana men prefer to marry a Brahmana woman since there is no advantage in marrying other women, it should be possible to find a match with a broader search. I am sure there are an equivalent number of Brahmana men at different levels who will make good spouses.

In the third case, it is quite puzzling if the lady was not able to find a Brahmana man in the US since it is my impression there are more unmarried Brahmana men compared to women.

In the end, I think all Brahmanas should inculcate traditional values in both sons and daughters to defeat the **KKK agenda and prevent Brahmanas from subsiding into the morass of their putrid culture.

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Re: Awareness and Unity necessary ...

Regarding: I think it is clear that in the second case, it should have been possible to find a Brahmana man if the search could have been continued for some more time, particularly now that there is increasing access to the Internet in India. Unless there is a major imbalance in the male/female ratio, and assuming that in general Brahmana men prefer to marry a Brahmana woman since there is no advantage in marrying other women, it should be possible to find a match with a broader search. I am sure there are an equivalent number of Brahmana men at different levels who will make good spouses.

In the third case, it is quite puzzling if the lady was not able to find a Brahmana man in the US since it is my impression there are more unmarried Brahmana men compared to women.

Unfortunately, mrifan Sir:
Awareness comes only after a critical body of evidence has built-up - people are initially apt to say "One swallow does not make a summer !"
Case (ii) I was talking about was in the mid-80s - well before the internet era.
Case (iii) was in the late-60s and early-70s

Our society is very blinkered, hide-bound, and resistant to change. In the 80s people were still very concerned about "varadakshinai" and "pasai-ulla-edam" and "well-connected families" (maybe things have changed today - I would not know - but I rather doubt it!).
The fault dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves !
Faced with extinction, I hope that we will adapt in an enlightened manner.

 

[NARAS]

Regarding: I think it is clear that in the second case, it should have been possible to find a Brahmana man if the search could have been continued for some more time, particularly now that there is increasing access to the Internet in India. Unless there is a major imbalance in the male/female ratio, and assuming that in general Brahmana men prefer to marry a Brahmana woman since there is no advantage in marrying other women, it should be possible to find a match with a broader search. I am sure there are an equivalent number of Brahmana men at different levels who will make good spouses.

In the third case, it is quite puzzling if the lady was not able to find a Brahmana man in the US since it is my impression there are more unmarried Brahmana men compared to women.

Unfortunately, mrifan Sir:
Awareness comes only after a critical body of evidence has built-up - people are initially apt to say "One swallow does not make a summer !"
Case (ii) I was talking about was in the mid-80s - well before the internet era.
Case (iii) was in the late-60s and early-70s

Our society is very blinkered, hide-bound, and resistant to change. In the 80s people were still very concerned about "varadakshinai" and "pasai-ulla-edam" and "well-connected families" (maybe things have changed today - I would not know - but I rather doubt it!).
The fault dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves !
Faced with extinction, I hope that we will adapt in an enlightened manner.

SIR - non bramins form more than 99% of population the world, and their numbers are increasing day by day, leaps and bounds. bramins form not even 1% of world population, and their numbers is decreasing day by day. so a bramin women marrying non bramin man is a loss of 1 bramin to the number, because the offspring of this couple, would follow the man's caste or relegion, which would only add to the already brute majority of nonbramins! so bramins should marry only within themselves, irrespective of any sect!!!

 

[maruti]

I can personally attest to instances when my friends and I were assaulted on the streets (of Chennai), when walking home from school. Typically some "rowdie element" would come racing on a bike (seemingly from nowhere) and hit us, or touch us inappropriately. Rest assured the "cheap thrills" were all his - we simply felt angry, violated and mortified. We soon learnt to keep an eye-and-ear alert for such behavior.
I will also (despite the risk of shocking you) attest to the fact that I was once very-nearly-molested by our Mudaliar landlord's son. He was in his mid-late 20s and I barely 7 - so don't tell me I invited it!
I simply had good sense to know something was amiss, and I ran out into the street - through a rear-door (which was open by God's grace).

Could be incidental. Many young people have such 'romantic' ideas, nothing to do with any (alleged) dravida agenda to molest Brahmin women. That said, perverts come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and colors. Brahmins do the exact same thing, like making lewd comments about women, and so forth, as mrifan mentioned. Frankly, I fail to see any difference between Brahmins and Dravids.:flame:

 

[kashyap]

the justification is not correct

Regarding: I think it is clear that in the second case, it should have been possible to find a Brahmana man if the search could have been continued for some more time, particularly now that there is increasing access to the Internet in India. Unless there is a major imbalance in the male/female ratio, and assuming that in general Brahmana men prefer to marry a Brahmana woman since there is no advantage in marrying other women, it should be possible to find a match with a broader search. I am sure there are an equivalent number of Brahmana men at different levels who will make good spouses.

In the third case, it is quite puzzling if the lady was not able to find a Brahmana man in the US since it is my impression there are more unmarried Brahmana men compared to women.

Unfortunately, mrifan Sir:
Awareness comes only after a critical body of evidence has built-up - people are initially apt to say "One swallow does not make a summer !"
Case (ii) I was talking about was in the mid-80s - well before the internet era.
Case (iii) was in the late-60s and early-70s

Our society is very blinkered, hide-bound, and resistant to change. In the 80s people were still very concerned about "varadakshinai" and "pasai-ulla-edam" and "well-connected families" (maybe things have changed today - I would not know - but I rather doubt it!).
The fault dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves !
Faced with extinction, I hope that we will adapt in an enlightened manner.

mami thanks for participating in this discussion form the other side.
I have seen many Brahmin women marry non-Brahmin men and then justify it saying it was love, or it was because our frequency matched and so on and so forth. But in reality if you see they fall in love only with someone in their college or workplace such that those men have same status or higher status. Naturally if the woman is an officer she won’t marry a non-Brahmin clerk neither a Brahmin clerk but a non-Brahmin officer. But suppose she met a Brahmin officer who was equal in all respects to the non-Brahmin then what would be her choice?
Similarly these run-away-Brahmin-brides marry a neighbor or an acquaintance in a party because they find them to be in equal or higher status in terms of money and position. When mami is saying these choices as being practical -- I am sure this is what it means. If you see a very famous example recently, without naming the people involved, I can cite this iyengar girl who had done mbbs and married the only son of a politician in a very prominent position in Delhi. This son had done legal studies. So clearly they were not students together neither did they work together. But it seems they met in a party. Don’t tell me that this lady had never met any good iyengar boys in family functions and marriages. But she would never have met such a rich person as this guy is. She could easily have got a good Brahmin groom but he might be max worth of a few crores but this guy is worth minimum 100 crores and she chose him. So when these women talk about practical choice it is more about money. Now I am not a Taliban or a Jat to say no to this. But my question is when these people acquired this status and money not by good and legal means but only by illegal and spurious way then how can these women go for it. 90% of the non-Brahmin people are doing professional studies and working in companies because they have committed crime (by illegally acquiring the benefits of reservation. Again I am not entirely against reservation but believe it should be given based on economic condition only not to rich or even middle-class pigs).
So with that fact, whenever I look at a non-Brahmin man I will have to see him first as someone who is cheating the society esp. if his status is higher in the society and he has abused the reservation policy. I am sure that many of these Brahmin women would have had brothers or cousins who were cheated by these non-Brahmin thugs. So I find it hard to digest that these women without a little bit of care for their own brothers and community can accept a thug. Even if they had no concern for their brothers and community, they should at least have a concern for the society and justice in the society. I have observed that men uphold these principles better than a woman. I have seen two of my distant cousin sisters run away without a thought with non-Brahmins. One even wrecked a married non-Brahmins’s house, made him divorce his first wife (with a kid) and married that person purely because she wanted somebody who she thought was rich. But they are now living in poverty because later it was found that the guy is a big time cheat.
Similarly her sister went for some 3 month course on beauty parlor and ran away with a guy who did not even have a job. Both are now living in poverty.
In these incidents I find that even money does not play a role. So what is it?
I think it is the scant regard the Brahmin women have for their culture. I think that they don’t have to be even caring about their community but what I find is that they don’t even care about the society and its welfare. All they care about is themselves and most often the choices they make are junk.



When I was trying to get married I spoke over phone to a Brahmin girl , and the first thing she said was that she only wanted to marry a non-Brahmin but her sisters told her that it is not a good idea and hence she has to now look for Brahmin boy. I asked her dif she had anyone in mind already and she said no. then i asked her why she had such a pre-determined view and she said -- why not ? and that many of her friends had done that and she also wants to do a similar thing. Predictably things did not materialize as she was not willing to meet anyone. Now what do you make out of this? I think these stupid women think that they are doing something fancy and fashionable by marrying outside their caste.
So either they are not practical.
Else when they say that they made a practical choice, it only means a choice based on money and status without any consideration to neither the culture of Brahmins nor for justice in the society.

BTW you were talking abotu varadhakshina etc. None of my brothers and myself asked ever for varadakshina or any such nonsense.

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

" ... fail to see any difference between Brahmins and Dravids"

Thank you for the eye-opener. Perhaps, I should think twice before I expend my precious time and hard-earned money on this community IF they seek to be no better than the rest ...

Could be incidental. Many young people have such 'romantic' ideas, nothing to do with any (alleged) dravida agenda to molest Brahmin women. That said, perverts come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and colors. Brahmins do the exact same thing, like making lewd comments about women, and so forth, as mrifan mentioned. Frankly, I fail to see any difference between Brahmins and Dravids.:flame:

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

I justify nothing !

Dear Kashyap,
I read your post with interest.
I am very happy to hear that you and your brothers married without a "varadakshinai" - may your tribe increase!
However, I would like to make exceedingly clear - that I do not justify anybody's choices EXCEPT MY OWN. I am simply trying to understand a phenomenon, and give you a different perspective from across the gender divide.
Your point about women seeking to marry men (Brahmin/non-Brahmin) of similar status is pertinent and makes sense from a Darwinian/evolutionary perspective. Evolutionary pressures are not sinful: they just ARE - society must face it, accept it, and adapt - or face extinction.
Also these choices are not strictly about money - that is too simplistic.
Evolutionary choices are about offspring, their viability, their future prospects, the mother's ability to negotiate for resources within the marital/extended family framework, and power - and these are very difficult, but important choices.
Every choice is a small political act - an individual's response to a various pressures: physical, biological, social, cultural, and peer pressure.
I accept that many women make poor choices - but as they say "Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions!"
Everything else being equal, how would a woman choose - that is an excellent question - and that is the group one hopes not to lose!

mami thanks for participating in this discussion form the other side.
I have seen many Brahmin women marry non-Brahmin men and then justify it saying it was love, or it was because our frequency matched and so on and so forth. But in reality if you see they fall in love only with someone in their college or workplace such that those men have same status or higher status. Naturally if the woman is an officer she won’t marry a non-Brahmin clerk neither a Brahmin clerk but a non-Brahmin officer. But suppose she met a Brahmin officer who was equal in all respects to the non-Brahmin then what would be her choice?

When we speak of "people acquiring status and money not by good and legal means" - let us be careful. The non-Brahmins were justified in crying opportunities were "Unfair!" - a 100 years ago! That is a very slippery slope.
As somebody once said "Democracy demands that we all start the race at the same line, and egalitariansim demands that we all arrive at the finish line together!" - The Darwinian game operates by an entirely different set of rules.

But my question is when these people acquired this status and money not by good and legal means but only by illegal and spurious way then how can these women go for it. 90% of the non-Brahmin people are doing professional studies and working in companies because they have committed crime (by illegally acquiring the benefits of reservation. Again I am not entirely against reservation but believe it should be given based on economic condition only not to rich or even middle-class pigs).

Regrettably in the following paragraph you sound like a Thanthai-Periyar inversion. I prefer not go there.

So with that fact, whenever I look at a non-Brahmin man I will have to see him first as someone who is cheating the society esp. if his status is higher in the society and he has abused the reservation policy. I am sure that many of these Brahmin women would have had brothers or cousins who were cheated by these non-Brahmin thugs.

There are principled men, and there are principled women. Women sometimes make poor choices, and sometimes, men do the same.

I have observed that men uphold these principles better than a woman. I have seen two of my distant cousin sisters run away without a thought with non-Brahmins. One even wrecked a married non-Brahmins’s house, made him divorce his first wife (with a kid) and married that person purely because she wanted somebody who she thought was rich. But they are now living in poverty because later it was found that the guy is a big time cheat.

The following incident you narrate is rather strange. I do not comprehend her insistence on marrying a non-Brahmin. Perhaps she believed she was being "open-minded" and "liberal", and was oblivious to the familial, social, cultural, and identity ramifications associated with such a choice.

When I was trying to get married I spoke over phone to a Brahmin girl , and the first thing she said was that she only wanted to marry a non-Brahmin but her sisters told her that it is not a good idea and hence she has to now look for Brahmin boy. I asked her dif she had anyone in mind already and she said no. then i asked her why she had such a pre-determined view and she said -- why not ? and that many of her friends had done that and she also wants to do a similar thing. Predictably things did not materialize as she was not willing to meet anyone. Now what do you make out of this? I think these stupid women think that they are doing something fancy and fashionable by marrying outside their caste.

[

 

[hariharan1972]

Pleasure to read your posts

Madam Maami,

Sheer pleasure to read your posts. It is doing wonders to my vocabulary.

Your thoughts are refreshing & you have a great style of writing.

 

[kudumi]

Its the question of percentage, and extent.

Could be incidental. Many young people have such 'romantic' ideas, nothing to do with any (alleged) dravida agenda to molest Brahmin women. That said, perverts come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and colors. Brahmins do the exact same thing, like making lewd comments about women, and so forth, as mrifan mentioned. Frankly, I fail to see any difference between Brahmins and Dravids.:flame:

I think most Brahmins will not go to the extent of physically abusing or harrasing a girl. "Uzhaikkum" makkal in my college days were all non brahmins at least from my limited experience.

Besides, if 2% brahmins get perverted, 98% are normal. Where was this percentage might be different in other cases.

 

[kashyap]

not really!!

Dear Kashyap,
I read your post with interest.
I am very happy to hear that you and your brothers married without a "varadakshinai" - may your tribe increase!
However, I would like to make exceedingly clear - that I do not justify anybody's choices EXCEPT MY OWN. I am simply trying to understand a phenomenon, and give you a different perspective from across the gender divide.
Your point about women seeking to marry men (Brahmin/non-Brahmin) of similar status is pertinent and makes sense from a Darwinian/evolutionary perspective. Evolutionary pressures are not sinful: they just ARE - society must face it, accept it, and adapt - or face extinction.
Also these choices are not strictly about money - that is too simplistic.
Evolutionary choices are about offspring, their viability, their future prospects, the mother's ability to negotiate for resources within the marital/extended family framework, and power - and these are very difficult, but important choices.
Every choice is a small political act - an individual's response to a various pressures: physical, biological, social, cultural, and peer pressure.

Ms mami , to this there needs to be added a long-time view for the society and not just the view for the self. In fact all the factors u mentioned are restricted to the self. I am not saying people cannot be self centred or oriented but they should not become selfish and put away the needs of the community/society because every one has a role to play in the society. Hence personal preferences should be satisfied within the framework that does good for the society as a whole.
BTW Darwin was not all that right. Also his rules can not all be applied to humans. Man according to him came from animal but that does not mean humans have to behave as animals. Because if everything is only about the survival of the fittest then there will not be any hope for a civilization.

I accept that many women make poor choices - but as they say "Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions!"
Everything else being equal, how would a woman choose - that is an excellent question - and that is the group one hopes not to lose!

When we speak of "people acquiring status and money not by good and legal means" - let us be careful. The non-Brahmins were justified in crying opportunities were "Unfair!" - a 100 years ago! That is a very slippery slope.
As somebody once said "Democracy demands that we all start the race at the same line, and egalitariansim demands that we all arrive at the finish line together!" - The Darwinian game operates by an entirely different set of rules
Regrettably in the following paragraph you sound like a Thanthai-Periyar inversion. I prefer not go there.
.

Ms mami , i do not agree with your regretting. What EVR did to brahmins was not based on facts.
I also do not accept your saying that non-brahmins were justifieid in "crying opportunities were unfair". The non-brahmins cried only out of pure jealousy.

Pl refer to the forum started by brahmastra where he shows that brahmins never oppressed any on educational front or occupational front.
Besides don't equate a BC or MBC with the dalits. The BCs and MBCs were wealthy landlords and merchants and kings of 2/3 of India all along. No one stopped anyone from learning.

So what EVR did to brahmins was not based on facts! What I am saying here is a plain and simple truth that is happening now and in the very recent past. 90% of non-brahmins use reservation without any justification and hence it is akin to stealing someone else's money or worse, it is stealing somoene else's livelihood. So I am entitled to have those views on them. It is for them to prove to me otherwise citing their family position and other such worthy reasons. Else I am right in viewing them as such.
I know that there are many deserving cases among non-brahmins and many talented persons who have fought against all odds to come up. But the high percentage (90% or more ) is not so. In fact I would like those really meritorious and just among non-brahmins to fight and remove the creamy layer among non-brahmins which is the real cause for the misery of their community . I wonder why they do not do that?
Until then viewing them as usurpers is justified.

There are principled men, and there are principled women. Women sometimes make poor choices, and sometimes, men do the same.

The following incident you narrate is rather strange. I do not comprehend her insistence on marrying a non-Brahmin. Perhaps she believed she was being "open-minded" and "liberal", and was oblivious to the familial, social, cultural, and identity ramifications associated with such a choice.

well I have seen stranger people !

 

[NARAS]

I think most Brahmins will not go to the extent of physically abusing or harrasing a girl. "Uzhaikkum" makkal in my college days were all non brahmins at least from my limited experience.

Besides, if 2% brahmins get perverted, 98% are normal. Where was this percentage might be different in other cases.

sir - i think almost 98% of male bramins do not eat meat, drink alcohol or even smoke! so this enable them to have control over their emotions even in private!! whereas non bramins gobble meat, drink like anything, and many are chain smokers! so they find it difficult to control them even in public!

 

[Shanti Brahm]

Stupid Topic

This is the most ridiculous topic. Brahmin women have minds of their own and are just as proud of their heritage as brahmin men. Brahmin men are not eve teasers. They are on whole very respectful group. That in itself makes it better for them.

The macho man might be fun at first but then they all turn scary. What woman really wants some aggressive man trying to supposedly "protect" them from other men when they are really just finding excuse to fight and impress? Who wants to be stuck with a Goonda and live in fear of all kinds of trouble and violence in home and with friends? Kamala Hasan was attractive because he's complete opposite of Goonda. He's like a nerdy Brahmin and even non-Brahmins find that attractive.

Have some pride in yourself and stop worrying about your women running off with lower caste men. Be more concerned how you can be a better man.

Please, let's stop this silly topic.

 

[navy-eswaran]

bravo sir

 

[lotus_quartz]

Well said.

I fully agree with the views expressed by you. Talk of brahmin girls falling for NBs or running away with them is ridiculously false. In any community, there is bound to be a small percentage of young people who do not beleive in marrying within community and would like to marry any other person of their choice. This should not be taken as a general trend of brahmin girls falling for 'macho man'.

Every community has its own share of courageous people and spineless people. To type cast brahmins as spineless and other castes in TN as courageous, macho etc. is plain B***S***.

In democratic, enlightened and well policed societies, the definition of macho drastically changes. A 'macho man' is not a knife wielding, horse riding , slovenly character but a cultured, erudite, confident man who has good grasp over his destiny, can mix and mingle with people of all background, is economically independant and has traits which would make him a good son, good brother, good husband and good father and a good Leader. The person must have strength of character and toughness of mind.

A good physique can be achieved through balanced diets, strict regimen of exercises, sports etc. and can make a person be perceived as a macho man. I reposte, I would like to mention that if situation demands, Brahmins should be prepared to jettison kudumi and demonstrate physical prowess learnt through judo, karate classes. Brahmins are anyway oustanding learners.

Hope every one knows that Judo and Karate were invented by 'peace loving' Budhist monks whose vocation (proseletysing their religion) involved travelling through the jungles all over the country. Many of them were assaulted and killed by thugs and dacoits and to save themselves, they developed martial arts to perfection. These arts are known in today's world as Judo & Karate.

This is the most ridiculous topic. Brahmin women have minds of their own and are just as proud of their heritage as brahmin men. Brahmin men are not eve teasers. They are on whole very respectful group. That in itself makes it better for them.

The macho man might be fun at first but then they all turn scary. What woman really wants some aggressive man trying to supposedly "protect" them from other men when they are really just finding excuse to fight and impress? Who wants to be stuck with a Goonda and live in fear of all kinds of trouble and violence in home and with friends? Kamala Hasan was attractive because he's complete opposite of Goonda. He's like a nerdy Brahmin and even non-Brahmins find that attractive.

Have some pride in yourself and stop worrying about your women running off with lower caste men. Be more concerned how you can be a better man.

Please, let's stop this silly topic.

 

[mrifan]

Wide detour

I fully agree with the views expressed by you. Talk of brahmin girls falling for NBs or running away with them is ridiculously false. In any community, there is bound to be a small percentage of young people who do not beleive in marrying within community and would like to marry any other person of their choice. This should not be taken as a general trend of brahmin girls falling for 'macho man'.

Every community has its own share of courageous people and spineless people. To type cast brahmins as spineless and other castes in TN as courageous, macho etc. is plain B***S***.

Not sure where the digression started. My original topic was not about comparing non-Brahmanas with Rambo, or comparing Brahmanas to weak cowards. My emphasis was on exposing the hypocritical Dravida OBC politicians' agenda, who are only too happy to complain about the "evil" Brahmanas, but seek out Brahmana women to marry, and then unleash more rhetoric and quota-warfare against Brahmanas. If there had been a genuine concern on their part about "social justice" why did they not marry a Dalit then? Also, why deny education and employment benefits to intercaste offspring of a Brahmana male, but not to those of a Dravida OBC male? This is where the hypocrisy is exposed.

In democratic, enlightened and well policed societies, the definition of macho drastically changes. A 'macho man' is not a knife wielding, horse riding , slovenly character but a cultured, erudite, confident man who has good grasp over his destiny, can mix and mingle with people of all background, is economically independant and has traits which would make him a good son, good brother, good husband and good father and a good Leader. The person must have strength of character and toughness of mind.

Everyone has a vision of what he or she should be. Just curious, would it so happen that this description corresponds to your mental image of yourself? Ah, nevermind, I digress. But in essence yes, I agree with your shrewd emphasis on the qualities of realpolitik.

In my opinion in the modern world, brute strength is not the most effective weapon. Brahmanas are not going to win by punching a few "social justice" thugs in the street. The real way to win in the modern age is to increase awareness, cohesiveness and confidence among the community, orchestrate a propaganda war, be smart with the media, recruit allies, confuse and divide the enemy and turn them against each other, consolidate wealth in the community, and increase the effectiveness and coherency of lobbying at all levels.

If one is supremely confident, firmly rooted in the knowledge of the enormous body of heritage and tradition that underlies the community, these **KKK thugs will ultimately have very little impact on Brahmanas and their way of life apart from winning minor skirmishes here and there. The crucial role for Brahmana women is to be equal partners in this struggle, because they need to think about their future offspring and what advantages they should possess in the oncoming knowledge-based society. Without them, Brahamanas will become extinct in a couple of generations.

 

[kudumi]

Paramacharya's advice.

SIR - non bramins form more than 99% of population the world, and their numbers are increasing day by day, leaps and bounds. bramins form not even 1% of world population, and their numbers is decreasing day by day. so a bramin women marrying non bramin man is a loss of 1 bramin to the number, because the offspring of this couple, would follow the man's caste or relegion, which would only add to the already brute majority of nonbramins! so bramins should marry only within themselves, irrespective of any sect!!!

Even the great Paramacharya adviced that brahmins should ignore subsects, and marry among subsects. I was fortunate to marry within the same subsect, but had I not found a suitable match, I would have married outside the subsect.
I totally dont believe in the concept of intercaste marriage, which is used as a fashinable tool nowadays to make brahmin girls who are "have minds of their own" to marry someone outside the caste, thereby doing a squirrels contribution to reduce our strength.
My friend said he is a revolutionary as he has had an intercaste marriage...when enquiring deeply, I found out, he is some pillai (some land owner pillai) and his wife is kanakku pillai caste....ithu than intercaste marriage latchanam .

 

[hariharan1972]

ICMs

My friend said he is a revolutionary as he has had an intercaste marriage...when enquiring deeply, I found out, he is some pillai (some land owner pillai) and his wife is kanakku pillai caste....ithu than intercaste marriage latchanam .

Mr Kudumi,

You are a naughty man !!!!! (Reason : Capturing the fort !!!)

You have raised an important point. If your friend claims that his marriage is an ICM, then how about this :

One of my brahmin friends married another brahmin girl & claimed that his is an "Inter Caste Marriage".

Asked how, he replied : I am a CA "inter" & she is an ICWA "inter", so idhu "inter" caste marriage dhane !!!!!

I think all castes today are very conscious of marrying within their community & Brahmins alone cannot be faulted.

 

[mrifan]

Flippancy not appreciated

Could be incidental. Many young people have such 'romantic' ideas, nothing to do with any (alleged) dravida agenda to molest Brahmin women. That said, perverts come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and colors. Brahmins do the exact same thing, like making lewd comments about women, and so forth, as mrifan mentioned. Frankly, I fail to see any difference between Brahmins and Dravids.:flame:

I find the above post very flippant and callous. I can only surmise that it arises out of sheer ignorance and possible motives of subterfuge. Throughout the 70's and 80's, Brahmana women dressed traditionally were targeted specifically by the **KKK thugs and harassed in public, with lewd comments. There were many occurrences in Kumbakkonam, Thanjavur and Erode. One of the reasons it has decreased now is that many Brahmanas have migrated to cities, and also many Brahmana women have refrained from wearing those dresses conspicuously nowadays. Which is sad since the same ***KKK thugs will refrain from targeting a Muslim woman wearing a burqa, or a Christian woman wearing a gown. The right to religion of Brahmana women, and freedom from threats and harassment based on religion enshrined in the constitution is not respected in TN by these Dravida ***KKK politicians. But then, these thugs are so used to modifying the constitution every few months based on hatred and flimsy reasons, that this does not come as a surprise.

So to say that there is no Dravida agenda is completely wrong and you know it, so you may want to rethink your (alleged) placement of parentheses. There is nothing alleged about this, it is a documented fact. Also, the "incidental" example mentioned by "born_again_iyer_maami" you dismiss so callously might assume monstrous proportions were it to happen to a relative of yours.

Almost no Brahmana guys I knew of would go and molest women or harass them on the streets. In fact, there was a recent article in ChennaiOnline which mentioned that recently the TN govt provided a Pongal feast to all inmates of TN jails. A vegetarian option was provided, but found no takers, I repeat NONE. This clearly indicates that all those criminals in jail for rape, murder, theft etc either do not have any Brahmanas among them, or even if they do, they are not Brahmanas any more, having given up Brahmana traits of non-violence and vegetarianism among other things.

I can dig up this article if interested.

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Spare me your twisted nonsense !

Maruti,
Just for the record: I would be EQUALLY repulsed if I were molested/assaulted/abused by a Hindu/Christian/Muslim/Brahmin/Non-Brahmin/Mexican/African-American/Eskimo. Assaulting someone is a crime - irrespective of who you are/where you hail from.
At any rate spare, I don't get a very pleasant vibe from your posts - spare me your twisted nonsense. Over-and-out!

 

[NARAS]

Maruti,
Just for the record: I would be EQUALLY repulsed if I were molested/assaulted/abused by a Hindu/Christian/Muslim/Brahmin/Non-Brahmin/Mexican/African-American/Eskimo. Assaulting someone is a crime - irrespective of who you are/where you hail from.
At any rate spare, I don't get a very pleasant vibe from your posts - spare me your twisted nonsense. Over-and-out!

madam- a man is known by the company he keeps. it seems the member of this forum who has caused unpleasantness to you has been in fairly wrong company and based on this , he has generalised and arrived at wrong conclusions. almost all of the bramin friends i had were decent persons. bramins were in a majority some 45- 50 yrs. ago, and even then allegations of misbehaviour by bramin men were very rare. perversion will be their among males of all groups, but i am sure the percent of perverts among bramins would be relatively low!!!