Doubt

[Haridasa Siva]

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Thank you, Sangom sir.

Can you please confirm whether my understanding is right? Thanks for the wiki link as well.

 

[prasad1]

Sorry for my insolence, why do we do these "karmas"?

I do what I can, and try not to hurt others, so sometimes I do totally useless acts. I would prefer to do what I think is important to me and skip the rest.

I do not want my children to go through these rituals and have willed that these rituals not be performed for me. They are free to do what they want in my name after I leave this body.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

I want to know why we change the sides of poonal while doing pitru kaaryam.

Request members to help me. Thanks in advance.

 

[kgopalan]

For this year mahalaya paksham starts from 13-9-2011 and ends on 28-09-2011. During this period one should do tharpanam daily for these 16 days. after tharpanam is over you can do all poojas and vrathams as you like. you have to give first preference to mahalaya tharpanam.you can celebrate pradosham, sankatahara chaturthy; sathya narayana pooja etc; as usual.

In amavasai tharpanam you are doing for your pithru vargam= father, granfather, father's grandfather. Then their wife's=mother, father's mother and father's grand mother. Then you have to do tharpanam for your Mathru vargam: mother's father, grandfather, mother's father's grand father and then to mother's mother, mother's grandmother and mother,s grand grand mother by chanting your mother,s father gothram.

During mahalaya tharpanam in addition to these you have to do tharpanam for kaarunya pithrukkal also.

Who are kaarunya pithrukkal= Your father's second wife if any,For your father's younger or elder brothers, your own brothers elder or younger, your own sister's younger or elder, for your father's sisters', for your son in law and daughter in law, your daughter, wife, your friends.

you can do tharpanam for those who have expired in the above kaarunya pithrukkal list only during this mahalaya paksham period. By chanting their gothram and name. If it is not known you have to say that that gothram that that name vasu vasu swaroopan in pthru and mathru vargam to all kaaruneeka pithrus i am doing tharpanam. say 3 times.

Retired persons can do this tharpanam daily for thses 16 days. But for office goers they can do only on one day within these period this tharpanam along with 6 sastrigals with manthraas.

(1) one sastrigal or pandit for the aavaahanam of visweadevar, (2). father , granfather, father's grandfather. (3 )mother.father's mother and father's grand mother. (4) Mother's father, grand father, grand grand father withn their wives (5) for all kaarunya pithrukkal (6) Maha vishnu.

You have to inform these 6 sastrigals well in advance to come to your house on one particular day. For instance you may request them to come on your father' s or mother's death thithi . Which must come in these fifiteen days . or any other day such as bharani star day, astami day dwadasi day .

If you ask them to come on your father's thithi day no problem. you should not do mahalaya sratham on those days in which the birth star of youeself, your wife's and your sons's comes on these 15 days. on other day,s please see the panchangam star's and thithi and fix one day . call them give them gingilly oil and soap nut powder and request them to take oil bath in your house in hot water.

You may provide them 6 9x5 cotton dhoties. and feed them with samaaraadhanai samayal . an dgive them dakshinai.

Now a days sastrigals are not available. so some. of the people are doing one day sratham with 2 or 3 sastrigals without dhoties and with meals.and dakshinai. Most of the people are giving them raw rice and plantain kaai and dakshinai after duly aavaahanam as (1) for pithru and mathru vargam and kaarunya pithrus and (2) maha vishnu and viswedevar.


For those who are doing 16 day's daily Mahalaya tharpanam they must on one day feed the sastrigals with dakshina. ON amavasya day they have to do first amavasya tharpanam and then they have to do mahalaya tharpanam.

On 14th day= chathurdasi day you have to do sratham for those who met their death by accident, murdered, or killed by animals or death by suicide or by consuming poison. For normal death persons you should not do mahalaya sratham on chathurdasi day.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Thank you very much, Gopalan sir.

It is nice of you to have taken the pain of giving so much details. Though I am not able to follow everything in my present situation, I have noted down your views so that I can refer to it anytime in future.

Thanks a lot.

 

[vijayramanathan]

Thank you sri gopalan

i have learnt how to perform tharpan for karuneega pithrus.i will correct it now.with regard to brahmin feeding i am doing it on thwadasi thithi which is my father's srardha thithi(in panguni month).i am told sice mother passed away about 4 months back i need not engage additional brahmins.but i think with mahavishnu 6 is correct.
Giving oil vastram etc are done by me during srardham only not on mahalaya srardham.
Is there any specification.

Ramani

 

[Haridasa Siva]

This year Deepavali and Amavaasya occur on the same day. I would like to know as to when I must take oil bath and when I must do Tharpanam. I request our members to help me with this. Thanks in advance.

 

[vijayramanathan]

dear sri haridoss

many times deepavali and amavasya will come together.

you have to take oil bath by 4.30am and atleast before 5.00 am

wear new cloths eat house prepared sweeta and deepavali legiyam.

as usual take another bath and do dharpan at appropriate time mathianniga velai

ramani

 

[sangom]

On a tarpanam day sastras do not allow eating sweetmeats and taking oilbath etc. Hence those people who have to perform Tarpanam because their father is no more, have to forego the pleasures of Deepavali and perform the Amavasya Tarpanam, have only noon meals etc., just like any other amavasya. Eating the sweets etc., have to be done on the next day. But kids and other family members who have no tarpanam duty, can celebrate dipavali as usual.

 

[Nara]

On a tarpanam day sastras do not allow eating sweetmeats and taking oilbath etc. Hence those people who have to perform Tarpanam because their father is no more, have to forego the pleasures of Deepavali .

Sangom sir, I was thinking of just this, why do ill-informed people give totally absurd advice. Those who care to clarify doubts must give accurate information and any convenience based compromises must be left to the individuals to make. Giving wrong information is a disservice to the tradition they purport to respect and revere.

Cheers!

 

[Haridasa Siva]

On a tarpanam day sastras do not allow eating sweetmeats and taking oilbath etc. Hence those people who have to perform Tarpanam because their father is no more, have to forego the pleasures of Deepavali and perform the Amavasya Tarpanam, have only noon meals etc., just like any other amavasya. Eating the sweets etc., have to be done on the next day. But kids and other family members who have no tarpanam duty, can celebrate dipavali as usual.

Thank you, Sangom sir for your advice. So, no oil bath, no new dress, no sweets, no fire works? Well. I can follow your suggestion. It is easier since I am away from India. You have mentioned about "other family members". What about my wife? Can she take oil bath? Can she celebrate Deepavali?

 

[sangom]

Thank you, Sangom sir for your advice. So, no oil bath, no new dress, no sweets, no fire works? Well. I can follow your suggestion. It is easier since I am away from India. You have mentioned about "other family members". What about my wife? Can she take oil bath? Can she celebrate Deepavali?

Wife is part and parcel of the husband as per our Shastras. I meant children and others in a large family. When we (my wife and I) were newly married and were away from South India, many times we celebrated deepavali either on the previous day or next day. Personally, I - or my body - cannot just withstand the early morning oil-bath and so this is something I have not been doing ever since my highschool days.

 

[vijayramanathan]

sorry mr sangom and nara

exception is there for deepavali with amavasya.you are not supposed to skip the ganga snanam on deepavali day.only thing is it is to be done befor 5.00 am or 5.30 am.yoy my defer in eating sweets etc.but gangasnanam as above and dharpan after taking second bath is the system.pl refer VAITHIKASRI WHEREIN IT IS CLEARLY MENTIONED THAT BECAUSE OF AMMAVASYA YOU CANNOT AVOID EARLY MORNING OIL BATH,OIL BATH WILL BE COUNTED IN PREVIOUS DAY
MR NARA I CONDEMN YOUR WORDS.PL AVOID IN FUTURE.FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION PL CALL 04424361210-211 VAITHIKASRI
RAMANI

 

[ilango]

The best way forward is to follow your heart. Ask any sastrigals which veda and ask him to recite they would get angry. This may be a custom of few and they may not understand the full meaning of pirthru dinams. So do not worry and recite siva namam and be happy.

I have raised this question several times with my family members and sastrigals who come to our house for religious happenings and they have have always told that there are five things which we should avoid during amavasya and pitru dinams they are vibhuti , kolam , lamp, veda chanting and rudraksham and said that these were not liked by the pitrus and also mentioned in our vedas. so many of the not so knowledegable and youngsters would get get some clarity if the discussion progresses by the learned members of this forum.
Looking forward to the discussion

 

[Haridasa Siva]

sorry mr sangom and nara

exception is there for deepavali with amavasya.you are not supposed to skip the ganga snanam on deepavali day.only thing is it is to be done befor 5.00 am or 5.30 am.yoy my defer in eating sweets etc.but gangasnanam as above and dharpan after taking second bath is the system.pl refer VAITHIKASRI WHEREIN IT IS CLEARLY MENTIONED THAT BECAUSE OF AMMAVASYA YOU CANNOT AVOID EARLY MORNING OIL BATH,OIL BATH WILL BE COUNTED IN PREVIOUS DAY
MR NARA I CONDEMN YOUR WORDS.PL AVOID IN FUTURE.FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION PL CALL 04424361210-211 VAITHIKASRI
RAMANI

Thank you, Mr.Ramani for your time and effort to clarify. I appreciate it.

 

[Nara]

sorry mr sangom and nara

exception is there for deepavali with amavasya.

Sir, you have to cite some authentic reference for this exception. Tarpanam is a Vedic ritual, Deepavali is more social. A social function can never take precedence over a Vedic rite.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Even though I am getting condemned for doing no more than citing brahminical shastras, let me also point out what the significance of naraka chaturdasi snanam is supposed to be, according to shasthras. Here I quote from the ahnika grantha written by Srimad Sri Laskshminrisimha Divya Paduka Sevaka Srivan Satakopa Sri Narayana Yatindra Maha Desikan, the 45th Jeeyar of Sri Ahobila Matam, page 153 of the 1990 edition.

"ஆச்வயுஜமாஸத்தில் க்ருஷ்ணபக்ஷ சதுர்தசியில் சந்த்ரோதயகாலத்தில் நரகத்தை கண்டு அஞ்சுபவர்கள் எண்ணெய் தேய்த்து ஸ்நாநம் செய்ய வேண்டும்"

​

As you see, the oil bath is for those who are afraid of hell for themselves. For one who cares about his parents and ancestors, fear of hell for oneself must take a back seat to propitiate the ancestors. So, if vijayramanathan condemns what I say, he is also condemning the Hindu darmashasthras.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Nara,
"Vaithikasri' is a periodical magazine published by a learned Sastrigal from West Mambalam ,Chennai.
Shri.VijayRamanathan has just quoted from the magazine.I presume Shri.VijayRamanathan is also a follower of what is written in that magazine.
This practice of taking oil bath, wearing Newcloths consumingSweets etc on Deepavali day before sunrise and then perform Amavasai tharpanam in the noon time after taking bath
is being followed by most of the Tamil Brahmins(Smarthas).Persons living in Chennai can request the publishers of'Vaithikasri' magazine to clarify the position.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri.Nara,
"Vaithikasri' is a periodical magazine published by a learned Sastrigal from West Mambalam ,Chennai.
Shri.VijayRamanathan has just quoted from the magazine.I presume Shri.VijayRamanathan is also a follower of what is written in that magazine.
This practice of taking oil bath, wearing Newcloths consumingSweets etc on Deepavali day before sunrise and then perform Amavasai tharpanam in the noon time after taking bath
is being followed by most of the Tamil Brahmins(Smarthas).Persons living in Chennai can request the publishers of'Vaithikasri' magazine to clarify the position.

As Shri Nara says, Deepavali is a festival celebrated by Hindus (other than the Sudras, as per the Puranas, since whatever was instructed in the Puranas also applied to the dwija groups only, I think). The popular story of Narakasura vadham by Krishna (Satyabhaamaa, according to some versions of the story) has no immediate bearing on this festival.

According to Dr. P.V. Kane's "History of the Dharmasastras" (Vol. V, pp.188-210) more than one independent work has influenced the celebration of this festival in different parts of India. It originally spanned three days of festivity/observance and the name given was also different :dīpālikā (bhaviśyottara purāṇa), sukharātrī (rājamārtāṇḍa), yakṣarātrī (kāmasūtra), sukhasūptikā (hemādri’s vratakhaṇḍa), kau mudī utsava (nirṇayasindhu & kāltatva vivecana) are some of those.

Before going into the details of the five-day festival comprising dhana pūjā (āśvina kṛṣṇa trayodaśī), narakabhaya mocana - naraka caturdaśī (āśvina kṛṣṇa caturdaśī), lakṣmīpūjana (āśvina kṛṣṇa amāvāsyā), bali pratipadā (āśvina śukḷa prathamā), it is relevant to note that these observances will not have the same level of importance or weightage from the point of view of orthodox hinduism or brahmin way of living. The amāvāsyā tarpaṇa will rank first and then only the rest.

As a real-life example, I may inform you all that till my family shifted to Trivandrum city with its large tabra population from our maternal ancestral home in a central Travancore village, I do not remember having seen any "pattaas" except for Chithirai Vishu which is a Kerala festival and even on that day only the youth used to light these "vaaNa vEDikkai" in open paddy fileds which had already been harvested, or not sown for some reasons. I also do not recollect being woken up early in the morning, compelled to take bath etc., except on Chithirai Vishu days and the bad and uncomfortable memory of the broken sleep, viewing the kaNi etc., are still there in memory. Thus I can truthfully say that at least some tabra families did not celebrate Dipavali in the way it is done by tabras and many others today.

This is an example of our so-called orthodoxy forgetting what exactly was a brahmin expected to do, accepting some new-found social enjoyment with some puranic story to substantiate it. and then arguing that what they feel enjoyable in doing is what the Shastras say. But when some people like Shri Kunjuppu, Nara, etc., advocate conscious steps for improvement of the community to enable it to live in the emerging world scenario, orthodoxy, Shastras, customs, etc., are put forward to malign those members as Brahmin Bashers etc.

 

[Nara]

... But when some people like Shri Kunjuppu, Nara, etc., advocate conscious steps for improvement of the community to enable it to live in the emerging world scenario, orthodoxy, Shastras, customs, etc., are put forward to malign those members as Brahmin Bashers etc.

Sangom sir, I appreciate this very much. For their convenience diluting shasthras is alright, but if we sincerely advocate reform for the well being of all, we are "brabas" for KB, sarang, prasad1, Raju, this list is long indeed. Post after post they never tire making this pointedly derisive and contemptuous personal comment. Very depressing ....

Cheers!

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Thank you, again Sangom sir for a detailed clarification. Good info.

Though it may be out of place for this thread, I just want to mention that "advocating conscious steps for improvement of the community to enable it to live in the emerging world scenario" is welcome any day. But what does happen many times is that for anything (bad) that happens under the sun, brahmins are held responsible by some people. That is not acceptable. Constructive criticism is welcome. Discreet, vituperative language conveys a bad intent.

Naraji, It should not be "depressing" to you.:target: After all you are a "veteran" in the parlance of the forum!

 

[prasad1]

One should do, what one's conscious permits. You can always expect your friends to help you and your adversaries to hinder you. Then you have others who are there to ridicule and mock you.

These anti social elements are like Taliban, just to destroy you for fun.
Best of luck.

 

[Nara]

... But what does happen many times is that for anything (bad) that happens under the sun, brahmins are held responsible by some people.

Siva, what I am talking about is direct and personally insulting comments like vomit by sarang, venom by prasad1, prejudiced by Raju -- these are directed at posters like me, the person. On the other hand, what we criticize is the ideology of Brahminism and the Dharmashasthras. There is a qualitative difference between the two, one is attack on the person and the other is a criticism of an ideology, there is no equivalency between the two.

Alright Siva, let me offer you a deal, let us keep track of the personally insulting comments from both sides. Let us highlight these instances as they happen and at the end of November let us compare the count. What say you?

Cheers!

 

[Servall]

Mr. Nara:

There is a qualitative difference between the two, one is attack on the person and the other is a criticism of an ideology, there is no equivalency between the two.

I tend to think that religion is very personal and when someone doubts the belief that a person holds very dear to them, it is tantamount to hurting the person (her/him)self....I do not participate in many of the discussions here, as I said before, I do not personally see any value in these discussions. You have come across as a learned person with many insights to what is being discussed. But if your opinions hurt others, why bother offering them especially in a forum that is exclusive to brahmins and one that contains mostly believers? And you want to keep a score? I am hurt that civilized people like us would need to do this!! Let us fast forward: let us suppose you had the time to keep the score and in the end of 2014 the score is tied, what next? OR the score 300 vs 40, what next?

Happy Diwali...

 

[Nara]

..I do not participate in many of the discussions here, as I said before, I do not personally see any value in these discussions.

Servall, I have been in this forum for more than a year. I have participated in many threads. What I have come across over and over again is gratuitous put downs and insulting comments about people like me, those bereft of faith in the supernatural. Yet, you say the religious get hurt when their religion is criticized. Atheists also have some self esteem and it hurts when people say we produce vomit. Where were all the neutral people at that time, I didn't see one person standing up and expressing outrage. On the contrary I think there were some "Likes" given.

I repeat one more time, there is no equivalency between the personal torment dumped on the nonbelievers compared to the hurt the religious feel just because their pet ideology is criticized, there is simply no equivalency.

To participate in discussions or not is a personal decision. You don't want to participate and that is great. But I do want to participate and I don't want to be constantly insulted.

And you want to keep a score?

You are missing the point. My hope is these insults will decline now that I am trying to expose them. Keeping count is not what I want to do. Let us all try our best and make this counter stay in the single digits. Nobody will be happier if this counter is made irrelevant. But I am tired of the canard both sides do it. I want to expose this lie.

Cheers!