We do that normally, dont we? We keep photographs of our loved ones though they are
part of us?
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Did we kill God?
- Thread starter renuka
- Start date
We do that normally, dont we? We keep photographs of our loved ones though they are
part of us?
prasad1
Active member
At the human level, we want to show our love to the other person. Some for memory sake: like people, places, or some other object. That is because they are all limited. We do not keep the 'Space' from our last vacation, we do not keep the 'air' from Australia. As things become subtler and pervasive, we do not bottle it up.
God or Brahman is all pervasive and subtlest, then how can we bottle it in idols, moorties, or any other form?
My belief is that a truly realized person will not keep a photograph, as they see Braman everywhere.
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renuka
Well-known member
I seldom take pics but if i take a pic of someone its not meant to be worshiped.
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renuka
Well-known member
I am not realized at all but I prefer not to limit God or Brahman in a form.
Just trying to understand 'Who is a truly realized person'..?
When I read nasadiya, it says Atman can never be known or at best partially known. In that light, I can understand a person seeks higher and higher levels of knowledge, forever.
But then, what is the definition of a realized person..? Who is the realized person..?
-TBT
prasad1
Active member
I do not know of anyone.
According to Hinduism, a person is evolved or self-aware to the extent he is aware of the true nature of his Self. It is this awareness which distinguishes an ignorant person from the self-realized one.
https://www.hinduwebsite.com/beliefinsoul.asp
In which scripture it is written that a person 'can be self-aware'..? Or where it is said that 'a realized soul or self-aware' is possible..? It's all about seeking/searching right..?
In fact if the story elaborated in the link you gave (from Chandogya Upanishad), it clearly says virochana stopped with seeing the body as the 'Atman', while Indra understood that soul was neither the body, nor dream/sleep/self, but something that exists beyond all known states. So Indra understood it is not possible to know it fully. That's the realization he had. So it reinforces the idea that Atman can never be known or atleast only partially known as in nasadiya.
If 'person who realizes the soul' is not possible at all, then what is with mUrti worship or no worship or virtual worship or anything..? Why should one be right and another be wrong..? Should not these be left as individualistic preferences..?
-TBT
prasad1
Active member
If nothing is right, there is no argument.
But in the case of Agama Sastra or Tantra Shastra, there is something is prescribed and that alone is right.
You are not supposed to pray to a Golu Ganesh, but you can pray to a Prana Pratista Ganesh. What justification is that?
Should we be worried that a Priest can be male or female, or a priest can only be brahmin or Sc?
prAna prathistha is a defined procedure for invoking the brahman in us, in the idol making it a mUrti. But that's not mandatory for worship.
We worship trees, cows, pillaiyars on the roadside (during ganesh chaturthi) or several roadside temples, even milestones on highway, etc... Is prAna prathistha done there..? Who barred such worships or invocations..?
Why we don't pray to golu dols..? I pray to them to come home every year and decorate our house with their blessings. Who stopped..?
sAstras are different for different sects (sometimes even sub-sects) and they change and evolve.
As I wrote in another post, sAstra are supposed to help us to un-learn, give up information but gaining more knowledge. Following or not following is our choice. There is no single right or wrong in all these.
-TBT
In south of India, Agama
A
agopal
Guest
They are systematic mis-information manifestations for well-intentioned reasons. Most of the "real" agamas are rituals steeped in secret. Let's step back and see if you are a Thirty-third degree Free mason. Probably not. There is a whole bunch of secret societies that protect "something". Have been doing so for a very long time and for really good reasons. There are overt books and rituals that are documented in all such secret societies. Do you think there is a complete documentation of why they do things a certain way? The real symbolism is not apparent and may never be apparent until you are an initiate. So are Agamas. Initiates are required to undergo training etc. etc. and finally a Sorting Hat is placed on you to classify to what level of secret you are entitled to and that's about the information you will get to say the least. I know of these because of someone who took a 'Dheekshai' a sort of renouncement to become Sivachariya to whom a small subset of the knowledge is revealed. Many of the South Indian Sivachariyas take this very seriously ( I could add rightfully so) and would rather die than reveal knowledge they consider of divine origin! Vedas, Upanishads and the documented agamas are just the tip of the iceberg and we as humans are privy only to so much knowledge under the Sun.
Ok. Not to be unjust to women, Let's just say to be eligible, Can you find out - please do as much research as necessary- through any means of all Hindu/Abrahamic/Islam scriptures in the world today and tell me what did Shiva as Dakshinamoorti, teach the sons of Brahma - Sanat Kumara brothers in silence that lasted for days or do an educated guess on what could he have taught? Just one piece of instruction that he taught is enough and please tell me which scripture talks about it! That's bringing the to the front lines of my research on the same subject... Well the question is open to other Knowledgeable members of this Forum... Think Big!
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A
agopal
Guest
I can define a realized person. it is a person who can raise up his soul(jivatma) through Kundalini and realize that he is part of something more. What that something more is for you to experience by practicing the appropriate yoga and realize and hence the insistence on experience from hinduism's perspective. Please read up on Kundalini yoga, the subtle hints in Lalitha sahasranama meanings, The Chakras, Kundalini yoga - particularly Sushumna, Ida, Pingala. etc. Google and the books can be your Guru! Other Gurus are most likely fake but the knowledge is real. I tend to read more than one source to get the true picture. Ignore personal opinions and commentaries as they tend to distract you. I should add that you also should have Bhakti for the "experience" part besides the voracious quest for knowledge.
prasad1
Active member
Sir have you read the basic principles of this site. There is no room for such sexist comments.
Renukaji is a Gargi among intellectuals. I do hope you know of Sage Gargi.
Gargi, the Vedic prophetess and daughter of sage Vachaknu, composed several hymns that questioned the origin of all existence. When King Janak of Videha organized a 'brahmayajna', a philosophic congress centered around the fire sacrament, Gargi was one of the eminent participants.
Depending on which Purana you want to follow:
Shiva had assumed the form of Dakshinamurti, the great teacher and meditating facing South observing a vow of silence. The four Kumaras approached Shiva for self-realization. He taught them about the Supreme reality – Brahman by making chin mudra gesture with his hand. The index finger is touched to the thumb, indicating the union of Brahman and jiva. Thus, Shiva made the Kumaras as his disciples.
The Bhagavata Purana lists the Kumaras among the twelve Mahajanas (great devotees or bhaktas)[SUP][4][/SUP] who although being eternally liberated souls from birth, still became attracted to the devotional service of Vishnu from their already enlightened state. It also mentions them as being an avatar of Vishnu. They play a significant role in a number of Hindu spiritual traditions, especially those associated with the worship of Vishnu and his avatar Krishna.
So sometimes they are Shiva Bhaktas and sometimes they are Visnu Bhaktas, I suppose they change parties or must be Smarthas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Kumaras
I hope you realize that they are created and actors in Purana. Not necessarily real.
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A
agopal
Guest
Sorry. I did not mean to offend anybody and neither are my comments. I know perfectly well who Renukaji is and her contributions and to this forum over the years. I just pointed out that there are certain things/knowledge that are not meant for a woman because of a woman's biology and her nature. Similarly there things/rituals/knowledge that are meant for Women that men cannot be a part of. There are many such fraternities and secret groups if you research them a bit. Aghoris for e.g. I know perfectly well who Gargi is and what questions she asked in Videha's court. If you read the Yajnavalkya's response to Sage Gargi in Brihadaranyaka upanishad, you would have to realize why Yagnavalkya's knowledge is superior and when he put a stop to Gargi's arrogant questioning line and pointed out what the result would be ( As an aside: What was the result that Yajnavalkya pointed out?).
Now, Why should the great teacher such as Dakshinamurti observe a vow of silence? Chin mudra is a <5 second instruction and add other Yoga mudras + add Adavus from Bharatanataya. Put together it takes say 1 day to impart. What was he communicating for days? Why should he chose a silent medium of instruction? That's what I'm thinking about. Again, these Mudras are shown using some body language. As to what it means is really open to interpretation isn't it? Note that, Dakshinamurty did not "say' or write down what it means...I strongly suspect that there is a purpose.
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renuka
Well-known member
Thank you sir..this is what i was hoping to hear.
That I am a woman hence biologically I cant receive it.
I rest my case ..cos at the end of the day almost everyone could not furnish me with a text reference.
Thats shows that finally its no big deal..cos all we have is a female( me) who cant receive the information for being biologically female and a bunch of males who cant give a reference of an agama shastra text and its page like how we quote Geeta ..
So finally i am as ignorant as you and anyone else..only difference is I am honest enough to admit it and see the extreme disconnect with Vedanta and Agama Shastra.
One says Tat Tvam Asi and you just said Tvam Stree Asi..
Lol
prasad1
Active member
Raja Ram Mohan Roy andIshwar Chandra Vidyasagar brought social reform During the British India days.
They saw the adverse impacts of such practices on the society, particularly women, in the long run.
First, women were stereotyped as servile and submissive beings wholly incapable of having an individual identity, independent existence and autonomy.
Second, males in the Indian society had understood that religion was a very important tool that had enabled them to keep their women’s social and economic position intact, thereby limiting chances of a potential challenge to male superiority.
Third, the male patriarchs had realised that making education inaccessible and unavailable to the Indian women was the best way to prevent an awakening among the women folk, thereby continuing with male dominance in the society. As such, the dominating Indian male would never let the balance of power tilt in favour of the women folk.
To that extent, they vociferously resisted the blooming of the seeds of social transformation in the Indian society.
https://thewire.in/society/what-the-womens-movement-today-can-learn-from-19th-century-social-reformers
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renuka
Well-known member
Just imagine I apply the same logic as what was said in an earlier post that some would rather die than to reveal the divine secrets.
Lets see..a patient comes to a doctor for a medical condition.
Doc diagnoses the patient as Cancer.
Tells the patient you need treatment but patient wants to know on what basis cancer was diagnosed.
Then should the doctor say "No you cant..i would rather die than to reveal the secret of my medical diagnosis cos you could be a member of any secret society or worse still a reincarnation of Madhu-Kaitabha and want to steal the sacred medical text from me...so just shut the F up and take meds without asking me anything"
Well...imagine if this ruled applied to all professions from medical to legal to education etc.
So why the heck when it comes to religion alone is all secret mission impossible?
There is a Hindi word to describe this..i will type it by deleting some parts
Its called Akhanda C******pa
Fill in the blanks..whoever wants to know full form feel free to PM me..I can give you deeksha too.
Lets see..a patient comes to a doctor for a medical condition.
Doc diagnoses the patient as Cancer.
Tells the patient you need treatment but patient wants to know on what basis cancer was diagnosed.
Then should the doctor say "No you cant..i would rather die than to reveal the secret of my medical diagnosis cos you could be a member of any secret society or worse still a reincarnation of Madhu-Kaitabha and want to steal the sacred medical text from me...so just shut the F up and take meds without asking me anything"
Well...imagine if this ruled applied to all professions from medical to legal to education etc.
So why the heck when it comes to religion alone is all secret mission impossible?
There is a Hindi word to describe this..i will type it by deleting some parts
Its called Akhanda C******pa
Fill in the blanks..whoever wants to know full form feel free to PM me..I can give you deeksha too.
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Vaagmi
0
Apples and oranges. LOL.
A
agopal
Guest
So [Jesus] told us to form a circle, holding one another's hands. and himself stood in the middle and said, "Answer Amen to me." So he began to sing and to say....
Dance, all of you.....
To the universe belongs the dancer.
He who does not dance does not know what happens....
Now if you follow my dance, see yourself in me who am speaking.
And when you have seen what I do, keep silence about my mysteries.
I leaped: but do you understand the whole?
---Acts of John, New Testament Apocrypha
I only am escaped alone to tell thee...
My thought
Darkened as by wind the water....
There's always
Someone has to tell them, isn't there?...
Someone chosen by the chance of seeing,
By the accident of sight,
By the stumbling on the moment of it,
Unprepared, unwarned, unready,
Thinking of nothing....and it happens, and he sees it....
Caught in that inextricable net
Of having witnessed, having seen.....
It was I.
I only. I alone. The moment
Closed us together in its gaping grin
Of horrible incredulity.
I only. I alone, to tell thee...
I who have understood nothing, have known
Nothing, have been answered nothing.
God always wins.
---Arcibald MacLeish, J.B.
Dance, all of you.....
To the universe belongs the dancer.
He who does not dance does not know what happens....
Now if you follow my dance, see yourself in me who am speaking.
And when you have seen what I do, keep silence about my mysteries.
I leaped: but do you understand the whole?
---Acts of John, New Testament Apocrypha
I only am escaped alone to tell thee...
My thought
Darkened as by wind the water....
There's always
Someone has to tell them, isn't there?...
Someone chosen by the chance of seeing,
By the accident of sight,
By the stumbling on the moment of it,
Unprepared, unwarned, unready,
Thinking of nothing....and it happens, and he sees it....
Caught in that inextricable net
Of having witnessed, having seen.....
It was I.
I only. I alone. The moment
Closed us together in its gaping grin
Of horrible incredulity.
I only. I alone, to tell thee...
I who have understood nothing, have known
Nothing, have been answered nothing.
God always wins.
---Arcibald MacLeish, J.B.
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Mantra at panchAshAt 50, of taittiriya Aranyakam, praSnam 1, popularly known as aruna praSnam or sUrya namaskara mantra reads:
striyaH satheeH; tA U mE pumsa AhuH:
Here Sati refers to a "kavi" or Rishika (and not sati of sati-sAvitri)
The meaning of the mantram is "You (Sati - rishika/kavi) is called by others (AhuH) as pumsa or male because of your knowledge of vEdAs. So at least during taittiriya Aranyakam days women were knowledgable in vEdAs or they were taught.
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renuka
Well-known member
A for Apple.
Alphabet book 1st page
O for Orange.
Alphabet book 15th page.
So its evidence based.
The book I learnt ABC from was from Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka.
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renuka
Well-known member
Thank you for the information.
A
agopal
Guest
It does not matter what I feel. I just raised a point that there are still many non-religious and religious societies that are same-sex oriented.
Mula prakiriti/Lalitha devi is feminine and is the jewel and priced possession of Shiva. She witnessed Maha Pralaya as per Lalitha Sahasranama. She is described as the 1000 petaled lotus at Sahasrara Chakra. She is the one Uplifiting us male/female and so technically female gender are already born at a "higher" level I would say. Kundalini itself is feminine. The book Varivasya Rahasya by Bhaskararaya in the 17-1800s describes the connection of Kundalini shakti to Mula prakiriti. That said, she is still eats the Karmic fruit and is subject to its variegation. She was the second bird from the various Upanishads. The first one who knows watches on and does not eat the Karmic fruit. The first bird is the Purusha. Steering off topic a bit, what happens when the second bird eats a fruit that can kill it? First one cannot just watch he has to do something if he wants to save her, for himself, I should say, so as to avoid loneliness. The ulterior motive is always to save her in all Avatars. If our world is Maya and we are all characters playing our role does it matter what happens if other maya characters want to know about religious knowledge? That's my perspective on brahmins/non-brahmins etc. Every body is entitled to learn and understand and experience for themselves. But rules were set up based on our character, values, bhakti etc. etc. so as only a few deserving ones reach the goal of acquiring true knowledge. Just as the same way certain remarks are considered personal and unacceptable in this forum to maintain the overall "sanctity"
-)) of the group, certain rules were setup on the values of Maya characters so that only the truly deserving ones see the light. I would say if there are only 3 people in this whole group I'm sure the the truth about religion(s) would be a common place and would be a no-brainier. Now, why the islands of knowledge and systems? Let's just say that was set up by No.1 so, just in case No.2 falls into some irrevocable spiral, No.1 can use those/system rules to go rescue her. Hence the Walls of Silence. I would guess that's probably what Shiva instructed in silence to Sanat Kumara Brahmacharins so the system continues till time immemorial. If those systems/knowledge were to be misused then it is back to Square one as per Nasadaya Sukta. Darkness surrounded by Darkness. No one wants that. Not even the Maya characters, even if they know they are one .
A
agopal
Guest
Whom shoves Whom around inside the Cranium ?
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