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Deergha Sumangali Bhava

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renuka

Well-known member
Dear all,

I know i am starting a rather controversial thread.

Can anyone tell me the origin of the phrase Deerga Sumangali Bhava?

Does it really have a religious significance or rather an economical significance?

Points I want to bring up is;

1) Arent we all born with a Date of Manufacture and Date of Expiry bar code on us?

2)So why do we go againts Takdir of God by wishing someones life to be prolonged?

3)Are we wishing out of love or for financial stability? cos a widow sometimes does face an uncertain future financially.

4) Many woman wish to go Sumangali but by wishing so dont they feel bad that they leave a old helpless male all alone..cos the male is actually the emotionally weaker sex.Just look around..a widow of any age can handle her life well even though she has many kids but rarely a widower handles life without his wife as well.

5) Deergha Sumangali Bhava blessing for a woman actually reminds the female of a Shorter Life Span when compared to her husband..so is it really a blessing?

6) So why dont we just bless any married couple "Sam Jeevam Sharada Shatam"..cos it blesses both and leaves the life span issue to God to decide.
 
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sangom

Well-known member
Dear all,

I know i am starting a rather controversial thread.


Can anyone tell me the origin of the phrase Deerga Sumangali Bhava?


Does it really have a religious significance or rather an economical significance?


Points I want to bring up is;


1) Arent we all born with a Date of Manufacture and Date of Expiry bar code on us?


2)So why do we go againts Takdir of God by wishing someones life to be prolonged?


3)Are we wishing out of love or for financial stability? cos a widow sometimes does face an uncertain future financially.


4) Many woman wish to go Sumangali but by wishing so dont they feel bad that they leave a old helpless male all alone..cos the male is actually the emotionally weaker sex.Just look around..a widow of any age can handle her life well even though she has many kids but rarely a widower handles life without his wife as well.


5) Deergha Sumangali Bhava blessing for a woman actually reminds the female of a Shorter Life Span when compared to her husband..so is it really a blessing?


6) So why dont we just bless any married couple "Sam Jeevam Sharada Shatam"..cos it blesses both and leaves the life span issue to God to decide.


Smt. Renuka,


I am not an authority to give any opinion, but AFAIK the blessing "dīrgha sumaṅgalī bhava" wishes the woman to live long as a
sumaṅgalī, i.e., with her husband. Logically, it can be interpreted to include the possibility of the woman so blessed also becoming a widow after a long life as sumaṅgalī, just as it is being interpreted and understood as death for the woman as a sumaṅgalī, which it does not explicitly state "die as sumaṅgalī" nor imply such a meaning linguistically.

In the mantras recited during a brahman wedding this also is there :—


[FONT=&quot]ध्रुवैधि[/FONT][FONT=&quot]पॊष्या[/FONT][FONT=&quot]मयि[/FONT][FONT=&quot]मह्यन्त्वाऽदाद्[/FONT][FONT=&quot]बृहस्पतिः[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]मया[/FONT][FONT=&quot]पत्या[/FONT][FONT=&quot]प्रजावती[/FONT][FONT=&quot]संजीव[/FONT][FONT=&quot]शरदश्शतम्[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

dhruvaidhi poṣyā mayi mahyantvā:'dād bṛhaspatiḥ |

mayā patyā prajāvatī saṃjīva śaradaśśatam ||

May you always live with me. May you be attached to me for long. bṛhaspati bestowed you unto me. May you become endowed with children by me, your husband. May you live with me for a hundred autumns.


The prefix "saṃ" indicates "together" alright but it can also mean "with me" as implied as in the above mantra. That is why it is not used by third parties to bless couples, I think.


The "expiry date" you refer to is IMHO written somewhat like "not beyond dd-mm-yyyy", specifying the outermost limit. This is referred to as kāla mṛtyu. But just like any packed goods it can be exhausted any time after packing and such a phenomenon is called akālamṛtyu. These terms are given some treatment in the āruṇa praśnam of taittirīya āraṇyakam, 8th. anuvākam. You will be knowing the usual mantra recited while taking tīrtham viz.,
akālamṛtyu haraṇam sarvavyādhi nivāraṇam || samasta pāpakṣayakaram ...pādodakam śubham ||

Hence, according to the traditional view, the good wish of "dīrgha sumaṅgalī bhava" will help in preventing akālamṛtyu of both the husband and wife; it just does not imply the woman dying as sumaṅgalī, though this meaning is "read into" by women.


 
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renuka

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Sangom,
You had written :
"The prefix "saṃ" indicates "together" alright but it can also mean "with me" as implied as in the above mantra. That is why it is not used by third parties to bless couples, I think"

You have a valid point but in a wedding doesnt the priest recite the mantras and not the groom..i used to think that the phrase "Kanthe Badhnaami Shubaghe" is in Uttamapurusha Vibhakthi denoting ones self..so why isnt the groom saying the mantra as he ties the mangalsutra? The priest says "Badhnaami and Sam Jeevam"also..it gives an unpleasent atmosphere as if the priest is getting "married".

I think every Hindu male should be sent for a 1 week course prior to wedding to memorize this line at least.

As far as I know in Non Brahmin weddings priest recites the mantra( I remember priest reciting at my wedding and i joked with husband saying priest "married" the bride.hehehheh)..I am not familiar with Brahmin Weddings..does the groom recite this mantra or does the priest recite it..feedback please ..would like to know..


P.S. just to add .. why dont we alter it to Vaam(for you both) Jeevam Sharada Shatam when giving blessings to a married couple so we need not use Sam.
 
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sravna

Well-known member
Dear all,

I know i am starting a rather controversial thread.

Can anyone tell me the origin of the phrase Deerga Sumangali Bhava?

Does it really have a religious significance or rather an economical significance?

Points I want to bring up is;

1) Arent we all born with a Date of Manufacture and Date of Expiry bar code on us?

2)So why do we go againts Takdir of God by wishing someones life to be prolonged?

3)Are we wishing out of love or for financial stability? cos a widow sometimes does face an uncertain future financially.

4) Many woman wish to go Sumangali but by wishing so dont they feel bad that they leave a old helpless male all alone..cos the male is actually the emotionally weaker sex.Just look around..a widow of any age can handle her life well even though she has many kids but rarely a widower handles life without his wife as well.

5) Deergha Sumangali Bhava blessing for a woman actually reminds the female of a Shorter Life Span when compared to her husband..so is it really a blessing?

6) So why dont we just bless any married couple "Sam Jeevam Sharada Shatam"..cos it blesses both and leaves the life span issue to God to decide.

Dear Smt.Renuka,

The blessing deergha sumangali bhava is to bestow long life span to both husband and wife.

The feminine form represents the material and the male form represents the spiritual. When the spirit leaves the body the body is no more alive while when the body leaves the spirit it signifies that the spirit is free of all that is material which is liberation. Hence the latter is considered auspicious. This is my interpretation.

But you need a mature mind to practice hinduism. Branding a widow as inauspicious may and has led to some pernicious practices. This has been the bane of hinduism, the inability of even the hindus to miss the big picture. The chanadala incident in Sankara's life is something that illustrates the importance of the big picture.

Good thoughts such as blessings may not actually mean the life spans are being increased but their power is derived from the fact that such thoughts transcend time and are only an indication that the couple indeed will live long.
 
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renuka

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Smt.Renuka,

The blessing deergha sumangali bhava is to bestow long life span to both husband and wife.

The feminine form represents the material and the male form represents the spiritual. When the spirit leaves the body the body is no more alive while when the body leaves the spirit it signifies that the spirit is free of all that is material which is liberation. Hence the latter is considered auspicious. This is my interpretation.

But you need a mature mind to practice hinduism. Branding a widow as inauspicious may and has led to some pernicious practices. This has been the bane of hinduism, the inability of even the hindus to miss the big picture. The chanadala incident in Sankara's life is something that illustrates the importance of the big picture.

Good thoughts such as blessings may not actually mean the life spans are being increased but their power is derived from the fact that such thoughts transcend time and are only an indication that the couple indeed will live long.

Dear Sravna,

Good points you brought up here..Technically we Hindus should never even brand anyone Amangala as I had mentioned in an old thread "When Jeevaatma is Eternally Wedded to Paramaatma..so there is no real Widow or Widower"
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sangom,
You had written :
"The prefix "sa[FONT=&quot]" indicates "together" alright but it can also mean "with[/FONT] me" as implied as in the above mantra. That is why it is not used by third parties to bless couples, I think"

You have a valid point but in a wedding doesnt the priest recite the mantras and not the groom..i used to think that the phrase "Kanthe Badhnaami Shubaghe" is in Uttamapurusha Vibhakthi denoting ones self..so why isnt the groom saying the mantra as he ties the mangalsutra? The priest says "Badhnaami and Sam Jeevam"also..it gives an unpleasent atmosphere as if the priest is getting "married".

I think every Hindu male should be sent for a 1 week course prior to wedding to memorize this line at least.

Dear Smt. Renuka,

The mantras like “kaṇṭhe badhnāmi subhage saṃjīva śaradaśśatam” are recited by the priests because the grooms are generally ignorant of any mantras. The groom is expected to repeat it faithfully and then tie the tāli around the neck of the bride, but this may or may not be done by the groom because he just doesn’t know nor does he care about the significance. (In a strictly legal interpretation, therefore, a clever lawyer may be able to establish that the groom has just tied the tāli as a representative/agent of the vāhdhyār only and the real right vests with the vādhyār. ;) I fully agree with you regarding the one week course.

But in a Brahman marriage there are other such delicate moments. To cite one example let us look at this.

tāṃ pūṣañchivatamāmerayasva
yasyāṃ bījaṃ manuṣyā vapanti |
yāna ūrū uśatī viśrayāte
yasyāṃ uśantaḥ praharāma śepam ||

O pūṣan ! excite her (the 'yoni') sexually, she whom males (their penises) approach with sexual desire, whom we thrust forward with our organs with utmost lust and in whom we sow the seed of semen.

This and some other explicit “mantras” are also there. The priest utters these, but the groom may blissfully play the role of silent observer. So, it is for the Brahman unmarried boys to decide what each one should do.

As far as I know in Non Brahmin weddings priest recites the mantra( I remember priest reciting at my wedding and i joked with husband saying priest "married" the bride.hehehheh)..I am not familiar with Brahmin Weddings..does the groom recite this mantra or does the priest recite it..feedback please ..would like to know..
I think the “kaṇṭhe badhnāmi . . .” is very often forgotten in the frenzy of the “tāli keṭṭu” what with the noise and the videographer asking for a second retake even sometimes!

P.S. just to add .. why dont we alter it to Vaam(for you both) Jeevam Sharada Shatam when giving blessings to a married couple so we need not use Sam.
I am not sure but think that “vām”, the short form should not be used in the beginning of a pāda; secondly vibhakti-wise also ‘yuvām’ looks correct IMO, but then metrically it will go off-balance. The best compromise may be “tvam”, and this version I found in some web page also. But authentic version is “sam”
 
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renuka

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Sangom,

Do we really have to take this literally?
Yoni can also mean Prakirthi and its like reenacting the act of Creation where the Seed of creation was placed in Hiranyagarbha..
 

suraju06

Well-known member
Dear Renuka and Sangom Sir,

All mantras are told by the Vadhyar and then repeated by the grhasta because the grhasta does not know them. So usually what the Vadhyar does is wherever words like mama, asmath etc come in the mantra he suffixes the word "சொல்லுங்கோ" and then proceeds with the mantra. It goes like this " maya சொல்லுங்கோ pathya prajaavati ........etc.". So this tricky problem has been solved long back by people in their own simple way.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sangom,

Do we really have to take this literally?
Yoni can also mean Prakirthi and its like reenacting the act of Creation where the Seed of creation was placed in Hiranyagarbha..

The word actually used in the rigvedic verse is "UrU" meaning thighs and the rest of it also does not call for any other meaning unless someone is bent upon creating a contrived interpretation. I wrote the word "yoni" within bracket s just to indicate that the word her did not specify the person of the wife but rather the part. Hope this is clear.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Renuka and Sangom Sir,

All mantras are told by the Vadhyar and then repeated by the grhasta because the grhasta does not know them. So usually what the Vadhyar does is wherever words like mama, asmath etc come in the mantra he suffixes the word "சொல்லுங்கோ" and then proceeds with the mantra. It goes like this " maya சொல்லுங்கோ pathya prajaavati ........etc.". So this tricky problem has been solved long back by people in their own simple way.

Dear Shri Raju,

I may say after attending many tabra marriages, that today there are few vadhyars who may know the meaning even toughly and even fewer know sanskrit to interject with "sollunko" at the right place. Secondly, even knowledgeable vadhyars look at the "track record" of the house, the father, the present position of the groom (how far is he particular about the mantras and all that) and hurry through the rites like a super fast or turanto express! Most probably such mantras may be omitted also, since I have not taken special care to go near the mandapam (due to smoke and my asthma).

So I feel it is 50-50 as far as the "way out" which you have written about, being put into actual practice today.
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Dear Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

'Dheerga Sumangali Bhava' wishes the couple at the same time. Not just 'Sumangali', but 'Dheerga Sumangali'! Although I don't know Sanskrit, I dare say, 'Dheerga' possibly means gloriously, satisfactoriliy etc. 'Dheerga' may be equal to 'pushkalam'. May be something similar to 'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'! I am not knowledgable enough to discuss this.

Dheerka Sumangali bhava'. 'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'.

Cheers!
 
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renuka

renuka

Well-known member
Dear all,

I have one more question:
In the Hindu wedding rites is consent asked anywhere from both groom and bride?
Being present for the marriage to takes place only implies Implied Consent.
Is there any mantra recited for consent and may be priest also answers on proxy?

I have one more question also..i recently attended a homa at a house of a relative and the priest was reciting Ganapathi Atharva Seersha and he had missed a couple of stanzas and also it was not recited according to sequence he was mixing up lines..i just have a question(I dont doubt his Bhakthi) but how effective is a Homa if the priest is fumbling verses..it goes rather unnoticed cos not many know Sanskrit out here in Malaysia.
and also if a priest who gets it right but has no idea what the meaning is how effective will be the Homas they conduct?
Most priests i have seen even those from India are unable to pronounce "Sha" and even a line like "Sarva Vigno Pashantaye" is prnounced as Sarva Vigno Pasantaye"
do this minor errors affect the outcome of the Homas..

I am asking this Q purely on technical grounds as I do not doubt the Bhakthi of any priest I have heard before..Feedback please...
 
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renuka

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

'Dheerga Sumangali Bhava' wishes the couple at the same time. Not just 'Sumangali', but 'Dheerga Sumangali'! Although I don't know Sanskrit, I dare say, 'Dheerga' possibly means gloriously, satisfactoriliy etc. 'Dheerga' may be equal to 'pushkalam'. May be something similar to 'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'! I am not knowledgable enough to discuss this.

Dheerka Sumangali bhava'. 'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'.

Cheers!

Dear Raghs,

'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'. ...how on earth to life happily after delivering sixteen?heheheheheh
Anyway anyone knows why 16 was chosen?
We are all learning from each other my dear..No one these days are certified true Vidwans isnt that what Kaliyuga is all about ?
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Smt.Renuka, Shri Sangom,

A story depicts events woven around a plot. It has a number of chapters. What we see using our senses are similar to those events in a story. What we see using our mind is similar to grasping the substance. As we keep reading chapter after chapter the intent of the author slowly unfolds itself. But the physical reality is scripted by a very clever author called God. The chapters are similar to separate lives. The chapters are connected by the logic of the story just as different lives are connected spiritually.

The author wants to make sure by the time anyone completes reading the story he really comprehends it. The events are presented in a certain way and the first few chapters are deliberately increasingly diconnected so that the reader at certain point thinks the story has absolutely no substance. Now comes the major twist. The rest of the story proceeds with the events presented in a similar way but gradually establishing connections between events. Seeing these connections the reader gradually becomes enlightened and by the time the story ends the perspective of the reader has made a volte face.

The major ploy here is to make you believe firmly in a ceratin way of understanding and then totally destroy that belief so no one holds that original wrong way of understanding. The world is like having readers reading different chapters of the story. So each one has a different understanding of the story at any one time. But finally everyone correctly grasps it.

There is varied understanding of the physical reality by the people and therefore varied sorts of people. This is because to attain perfect balance of mind one should be immune from good and bad emotions and expereinces to produce which you need different sorts of people.

The reason I am giving this analogy in this thread is I thought substance of the matter should not be missed because of the way it is presented or said.
 
R

Ramacchandran

Guest
Two years back I was in OML at Poona where I read a Athrva Vedha Text. There were 10 publications and few mentioned about the Mantras in marriages. The meanings I enjoyed as a married man and particularly the Shanthi mantra where the Pandit guides the groom how he should penetrate in the bride. It is not the body alone but also the soul/ Mind. Here the author says "eventhough we married for creating a new generation we are the one who decides the future of the world. The next generation of the world is in our hands and we should produce the brave children who will navigate the world and help all the peolple and he should live for others." Then the priest ask the bride to ask the groom "Pathi! Do you feel that this is the right time for our penetration and the seed that you harvest in me will defiantly bring a child as you mentioned." The groom says yes and these mantras goes for about 10 pages. This santhi mantras now a days looked only as a ritual where the sastrigal send Brahmacharis to do this. The Samith that is to put the agnigunda is different for Shanthi homam, but since it is looked as a ritual rather than science the sastrigal put arasa samith in to the agni Gundam.

Dhri
i
(allied to rt. bhri, which is probably the more ancient form), cl. I. P. A. dharati, -te, dadhdra (Ved. dddhdra), dadhre (part, dadhrdna), dharishyati, -te, adhdrshtt,
adhrita, dhartum, and more commonly cl. 10.(identical with Caus. but with the same senses as cl. I.) dhdrayati, -te, Pot. dhdrayet,-ta (Mahabh.Anusasana-p. 5007. dhdrayita), dhdraydmdsa,dharayishyati, -te, adtdharat, -ta (Vedic forms dldharat, didhritam, didhrita, ni-didhar), dhdrayittim,to hold, bear, carry ; hold up, upport,sustain, maintain ; carry on ; to hold in, hold back,keep back, restrain, stop, detain, curb, resist ; to hold in one's possession, keep, possess, have ; to keep, retain (in one's service) ; to hold fast, preserve ; to hold, contain ; to lay hold of, seize, recover ; to hold, observe,practise; to wear, use (as clothes &c.); to bear,undergo, suffer ; to hold out, hold on, endure, continue,continue to live ; (A.) to hold one's place, stand firm, remain ; to fix, place, deposit ; to destine for,assign or present anything (ace.) to any person (dat.) ;to allot, assign, confer ; (A.) to destine a person (ace.)to anything (dat.) ; (cl. :eek:.) to owe anything (ace.)to any person (dat. or gen.) ; to weigh in a balance ;
to prolong (in pronunciation) ; to cite, quote. The above meanings of dhri (cl. I . or more frequently cl. 10. identified with Caus.) may be variously extended by connecting it with various nouns, e. g.garbham dhri, to conceive, to become pregnant,(in this sense the older language uses rt. bhri);dandam dhri, to carry a stick, use force, chastise
(with loc. of the pers.) ; damam dhri, to punish (with loc. of the pers.); dtmdnam or jivitam or prdndn or iartram or gitram or deham dhri, to maintain the soul, preserve the vital spirits, body,&c., to continue to live, survive ; mano or mdnasaia or matim or tittam or buddhim dliri, to fix the mind, direct the thoughts or attention upon,resolve ; vratam dhri, to observe or keep a vow, [cf. dhrita-vrata] ; tapo dhri, to undergo or perform penance ; dhdrandm dhri, to practise selfcontrol ; tuluya dhri (or without tulayd), to hold in a balance, weigh, measure ; iirasd or m&rdhni dhri, to bear on the head, honour highly ; manasd dhri (or without manasd), to bear in mind, recollect,remember; samaye dhri, to bring to an agreement,cause to make a compact;antare dhri, to deposit anything as surety, to give bail, to pledge : Pass, or dhriyate (ep. also dhriyati), to be firm or fixed, to be supported or maintained, to be preserved ;to exist, live, continue to live, remain alive, survive ;to remain, continue ; to undertake, resolve upon (with dat. or ace. of the thing or with inf.): Caus.dhdrayati, -te (with the meanings of cl. I. and
cl. 10.): Pass, of Caus. dhdryate, to be held or supported, to be maintained or preserved ; to continue to live (with inst., e. g. tend na dhdryate, it is not lived by him) Desid. didhlrshati, -te,didhanshate, didhdrayishatt, to wish to hold or keep, to try to support or maintain, Intens.dedhrlyate, dardharti (Ved. dadJiarti), to hold very fast, lay hold of firmly, bear firmly, &c. ; [cf.I. dharma, dhira, dhruna, dhur, dhurya;Zend dar,
' to hold ; epfiv-u-s, Op6vo-s, dip-pa, 6e\-u, i-9f\-u ; Lat.fre-tu-s, fre-nu-m, fir-mu-s, fw-ma; Angl. Sax.drag-an, dreog-an;

So the Meaning of the word Dhiga Sumangali is the Power that brings Mangala Good Behavior may stay with this young couple
 

kgopalan

Well-known member
One book is there deerga sumangali bhavaa written by Dr. Natarajan(Dr .Najan) Pratheepa prasuram mylapore chennai . Available in Giri Trading Company. He har written 108 books on Sri vidhya and the group goddesses. Details are there in that book.
 

Iyyarooraan

Well-known member
The blessing "dhirgha sumangali bhava" is relevant to old times when the condition of a widow was mostly bad. These days it should be "dhirgha dhanwan bhava". Wealth can take care of every thing including hospital expenses. As for the priest reciting the Mangalasutra slokam, I would add that the priest somewhere else say "mama pitharam udhishya", etc. He (priest) is the Brahman and omnipresent, he is the husband, he is the son and he is the father and so on.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Iyya,

As a practical minded person I am with you 100%. I have widowed cousins who marry their children with themselves being present, fully dressed to the hilt, and fully participating in all the functions, except dharavaathu kodukkal.

Not only I found there is support for this in our family, which I would consider a values-in-transition-re-modern-traditional tending towards what is acceptable today. Ie I do not think, these young fashionable looking widows would be thus participating without the acceptance of the key folks on both sides.

Which to me is great gratification, as it was about 25 years ago, a widowed cousin, with her own earnings married off her daughter and herself was consigned to the back corners of the kalyana mantapam and no one except me, appeared to be upset about it. Times, they have indeed changed for better, for the women, and as a consequence for the men too, as the current day guys do not have this ugly blotch of prejudice towards their own mothers and sisters and daughters.
 

Iyyarooraan

Well-known member
Dear Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

'Dheerga Sumangali Bhava' wishes the couple at the same time. Not just 'Sumangali', but 'Dheerga Sumangali'! Although I don't know Sanskrit, I dare say, 'Dheerga' possibly means gloriously, satisfactoriliy etc. 'Dheerga' may be equal to 'pushkalam'. May be something similar to 'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'! I am not knowledgable enough to discuss this.

Dheerka Sumangali bhava'. 'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'.

Cheers!
I think here it means 'be sumangali till death'.
 

Iyyarooraan

Well-known member
I do not know whether there is a shastra sammadam in treating the widows like that in old days. But definitely the ladies must have contributed a lot to the misery. If the present day ladies realize that, we can think we are on a changing mode. With due respect to modern ladies, we have still a long way to go.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Incidentally, the rite of tying a taali is not a vedic prescription, nor is the mantra "maangalyam tantunaanena". I think it is a much later fabrication by priests or some of the later sutrakaaras. This thali is only a "dravidian" practice adopted by the brahmans.

The rigveda mantra "sumangaleeriyam vadhoorimaagm sameta pasyata..." is there but the correct sanskrit word is sumangalaa, I think. So, this "Deergha Sumangalee Bhava" (DSB) is an erroneous concoction by an unlearned Pundit IMO. the correct rendering ought to be "Deergha Sumangalaa Bhava".
 

CLN

Active member
When a newly married couple prostrates in front of an elderly male and says "Abhivaadaye ...", as they are generally made to do, the elderly male is supposed to bless the boy with "Dheerghaayushyamastu" and the female with "Dheerghasumangalibhava". This, in essence, is a sort of double blessing only to the boy, so to say, because both blessings essentially mean one and the same thing, honestly speaking. In sanatana sampradaya, it ia a sad but an undeniable fact that a female has no real individual identity. She is treated just as a sahadharmini. I don't find any equivalent male expression for sahadharmini being used any where. On the other hand, for a masculine karta I don't find its feminine gender form used in connection with any karma, because females have not been considered to be having the yogyathai for doing any karma independent of a male, be they shubha or ashubha type.

I know my comment may not find favour with people with an orthodox outlook. but, all the same, what a gross injustice!
 

sangom

Well-known member
When a newly married couple prostrates in front of an elderly male and says "Abhivaadaye ...", as they are generally made to do, the elderly male is supposed to bless the boy with "Dheerghaayushyamastu" and the female with "Dheerghasumangalibhava". This, in essence, is a sort of double blessing only to the boy, so to say, because both blessings essentially mean one and the same thing, honestly speaking. In sanatana sampradaya, it ia a sad but an undeniable fact that a female has no real individual identity. She is treated just as a sahadharmini. I don't find any equivalent male expression for sahadharmini being used any where. On the other hand, for a masculine karta I don't find its feminine gender form used in connection with any karma, because females have not been considered to be having the yogyathai for doing any karma independent of a male, be they shubha or ashubha type.

I know my comment may not find favour with people with an orthodox outlook. but, all the same, what a gross injustice!

Dear Shri CLN,

Two observations:

1. The usual aaseervaadam for a male is "deerghaayushmaan bhava" - a direct wish "May you enjoy a long life" and not "deerghaayushyam astu" - Let there be longevity, without being specific about to whom.

2. In sanskrit the word "kartaa" and "kartree" both are there. Though women did not enjoy any independent role, as you say, the language allows for the eventuality. And, in actual life I know that my father's chithi (mother's younger sister, who was widowed at the age of 13) used to perform hiranya sraaddham for her late husband. this was before 1970's and must have started long before that since she was more than 75 in early 70's. I once asked my mother what chithi paatti would do when she was younger and was "out of doors" during that thithi and my mother said the hiranya sraaddham would be done on the ensuing amaavaasya. I don't know whether this has "saastra sammatham" or was done just for the mental satisfaction of that childless woman.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
sangom, i would not be surprised if your chithi patti had her head shaved too at 13, as happened to my athai patti - 11 years old. and died a ripe 80 years all with head shaved and mercy of relatives.

she too performed shraddham for her husband, though she never remembered how he looked, as she was whisked away after the wedding. there was no first night for her as the child husband died in a few months.
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Dear Raghs,

'பதினாறும் பெற்று பெரு வாழ்வு வாழ்க'. ...how on earth to life happily after delivering sixteen?heheheheheh
Anyway anyone knows why 16 was chosen?
We are all learning from each other my dear..No one these days are certified true Vidwans isnt that what Kaliyuga is all about ?

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

Children are one of the sixteen blessings.

துதிவாணி வீரம் விசயம்சந்தானம் துணிவுதனம்
மதிதானியம் சௌபாக்கியம் போகம் - அறி(வு)அழகு
புதிதாம் பெருமை அறம்குலம்நோவகல் பூண்வயது
பதினாறுபேறும் தருவாய்மதுரைப் பராபரனே - காளமேக புலவர்

thudhi = fame
vaaNi = education
viiram = courage
visayam = success
sandhaanam = progeny
thuNivu = daring
dhanam = finance
madhidhaaniyam = valued grain(abundance of food)
saubaaggiyam = well-being
bOgam = enjoyment of pleasures
aRivu = wisdom
alzhagu = beauty
pudhidhaam perumai = unending honours
aRam = philanthropy
kulam = birth
nOvagal pUN vayadhu = healthy long life - http://www.treasurehouseofagathiyar.net/07700/7772.htm

(So, the blessing goes like பதினாறும் பெற்று தீர்க்க சுமங்கலியாய் வாழ்க ).

Cheers!
 
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