Churches are turning into temples

[r_lakshminarasimhan]

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I pray someone from christian missionary doesnot read this artcle bcos they have more money than anyone else(cash).They were once good @ humanities(still few people are) & social welfare but now run as a structured business model with targets in Asia.I heard Dr.Subramanian Swamy quoting it like" their priority is to increase their strength to 1 Billion from Asia of which 30-40% coming from India".

 

[sarang]

What use for war if booties, sorry beauties, are lost.

So guys DO NOT lose out yaar...
AM Ji please remember let men be men and let them FIGHT.

 

[sarang]

We have to maintain old temples and restore those in ksheena condition, no dispute. In addition, new temples have to be built in new townships, colonies and even in mega societies. That is happening. Don't live in a place which does not have a temple, as ordained by auvaiyar.

Our tamil tv serials will be severely handicapped or will face shortage of locations if new temples are not built.

Dear Sarang Ji, Prasda Ji

A Temple/Church/Mosque is just a piece of civil engineering. One's attempts should be
to built one in one's own heart.

My earlier posts in this thread would indicate how much I have been involved in the
renovation and maintenance of a very ancient Temple in Chennai. Building new ones is no big deal.
Preserving the beautiful stone structures with intricate workmanship and each Sthalam with its own
Sthala Puranam, records of visitation from Nayanmars and Azhwars, the miraculous anecdotes
is the real challenge .

Please gentlemen, let's not get into a slug fest.

Yay Yem

 

[renuka]

What use for war if booties, sorry beauties, are lost.

Dear Sarangji,

You see fights and being brave are prerequisites for survival.

Even Madhvacharya used to believe :

"One should cultivate strength of body even like strength of mind; it is impossible for a weak body to house a strong mind". Accordingly he had made his disciples achieve strength in their body as well as in their Vedantic pursuit. taken from Wikipedia..

So do not worry..fight and the beauties will wait with garlands.

 

[kk4646]

Dear AM ji,

Gentlemen are BORING.
Ever seen Gladiators fight or see people mud wrestle?
We woman are not even complaining when men FIGHT!!LOL

"We woman are not even complaining when men FIGHT!!LOL"


We MEN also will not complain if we watch women wrestle..especially MUD wrestling..!!

TVK

 

[renuka]

"We woman are not even complaining when men FIGHT!!LOL"


We MEN also will not complain if we watch women wrestle..especially MUD wrestling..!!

TVK

So let the FIGHTS begin.Mixed Mud Wrestling(man and woman participants) is even better!!LOL

 

[Somayaji.S]

mahakavi

(quote) "Mr. Somayaji:

On a separate note it is somewhat unfortunate that the Flushing temple is now embroiled in a controversy over management matters and that the case has gone to court. Did it get settled one way or the other? (en-quote)

Yes. 6 people filed a suit in 2001, against the management to to make the Elections "Transparent"

On Court orders the management conducted the Elections in accordance with the guidelines-.8000 votes were registered, Dr.Uma Mysorekar and her 11 member team won an "astounding" Victory.March 2006 The Supreme Cout Judge Justice Joseph Golia restored themanagement to the "Original Committee"--out 6 => 3 people contested the election and were NOT elected.

Flushing Temple is the FIRST (even before Pittsburg) and most popular temple.To run a Hindu temple in a "Foreign Land" itself is very difficult--"Infighting" is very un-fortunate.

Dr.Uma Mysorekar is a very renowned and able Gynaecologist and Obstetrician. My daughter had to wait almost 2 years to get an appointment from her.So Doctor is very fond of my grandson(15 years old).After Mr.Mysorekar (a Desastha Marathi Brahmin settled in Mysore) passed away,Dr.Uma.M.has completely devoted herself to Temple service.She almost lives there only 24/7--I think she has NO children.She is old and weak.

Her major achievements are the Community Center and One Million Dollar Temple expansion--Multi various Reliogion related Social activities--Vedha Patasala--YOGA (Yogi=> Tamil =>Swami Bua passed away only a few months back at the age of 104--all his disciples are Westerners and Chinese) Children activities--children "TALK" in Sanskrit !!--Senior's activities--Out-raech programmes--Medical-Health Camps-- Two Major Ratha Yatras--one Maha Ganapathi (Vinayaka chaturthi) and the other for Lord Srinivasa (Brahmotsavam).Naadhaswaram from CANADA=> Hyderabad MUSLIM (!!!! ) Brothers--100 % Classical Carnatic Music--Elephant from Florida--Go Puja--5 miles Ratha Yathra--White Caucasians--African Americans--Chinese all Enjoy--Through out procession=>Indian Businessmen provide FREE snacks-- fruits--Drinks--Sweets--savouries--Anna Dhanam almost 30,000 to 50,000 pockets on Chaturthi day alone and a little less on the remaining 9 days.

I pray God to give her a long ,healthy life. She is almost in Every Inter-religious Committee.I do not know after her whether these South Indian Hindus are going to hold each other's "KUDIMI".

 

[mahakavi]

Ok, let me ask the question in a different way to find the answers but still risk being branded

What is this business of migration mean? Residents who were visiting this church have moved out and got replaced
with folks who either do not go to churches or have another one instead of this?

No branding. I know you asked an honest question. In the US it is not people "visiting" a church similar to people in India going to visit several temples all over the land. People who live in a particular neighborhood belong to the neighborhood church, going to the worship services every Sunday and perhaps another day, sending their children to the so-called grammar school in the church to get religious education, and contributing monetarily. Unless the church is very poor but belongs to a broader coalition of churches (such as the Roman Catholic church), they don't get any external contribution. The members go to Sunday worship services in their best clothes to hear the sermon by the pastor and after the services socialize a bit. When the membership and money mean so much it is a do or die situation for them. When they cannot "do" they "die".

What I meant by migration is a blighted neighborhood. Jobs vanish (like Detroit--the autohub) and people move elsewhere. Then again there is upward mobility when people move to better housing elsewhere. Finally when children of the old residents do not want to continue living in the same area there is a decline in membership. All these factors contribute in a combinatorial fashion. Most of the neighborhood churches have small congregations attesting to the individuality of these churches under a broad denomination. The abandonment and the sale of an existing church does not happen overnight. It takes more than a generation or two.

 

[guruvayurappan]

post 56 #
dear somayaji !
very pleased read about a service oriented ladysmt Uma mysorekar .yet another smt.nagarathnamma (satguru thyaga raja temple ). i also join with your prayer for her long &healthy life
guruvayurappan

 

[prasad1]

No branding. I know you asked an honest question. In the US it is not people "visiting" a church similar to people in India going to visit several temples all over the land. People who live in a particular neighborhood belong to the neighborhood church, going to the worship services every Sunday and perhaps another day, sending their children to the so-called grammar school in the church to get religious education, and contributing monetarily. Unless the church is very poor but belongs to a broader coalition of churches (such as the Roman Catholic church), they don't get any external contribution. The members go to Sunday worship services in their best clothes to hear the sermon by the pastor and after the services socialize a bit. When the membership and money mean so much it is a do or die situation for them. When they cannot "do" they "die".

What I meant by migration is a blighted neighborhood. Jobs vanish (like Detroit--the autohub) and people move elsewhere. Then again there is upward mobility when people move to better housing elsewhere. Finally when children of the old residents do not want to continue living in the same area there is a decline in membership. All these factors contribute in a combinatorial fashion. Most of the neighborhood churches have small congregations attesting to the individuality of these churches under a broad denomination. The abandonment and the sale of an existing church does not happen overnight. It takes more than a generation or two.

Everything you said is correct, one minor correction, they will go to their own denomination church only. A friend of mine drives 80 miles every sunday to go to his denominational church.

 

[prasad1]

mahakavi

(quote) "Mr. Somayaji:

On a separate note it is somewhat unfortunate that the Flushing temple is now embroiled in a controversy over management matters and that the case has gone to court. Did it get settled one way or the other? (en-quote)

Yes. 6 people filed a suit in 2001, against the management to to make the Elections "Transparent"

On Court orders the management conducted the Elections in accordance with the guidelines-.8000 votes were registered, Dr.Uma Mysorekar and her 11 member team won an "astounding" Victory.March 2006 The Supreme Cout Judge Justice Joseph Golia restored themanagement to the "Original Committee"--out 6 => 3 people contested the election and were NOT elected.

Flushing Temple is the FIRST (even before Pittsburg) and most popular temple.To run a Hindu temple in a "Foreign Land" itself is very difficult--"Infighting" is very un-fortunate.

Dr.Uma Mysorekar is a very renowned and able Gynaecologist and Obstetrician. My daughter had to wait almost 2 years to get an appointment from her.So Doctor is very fond of my grandson(15 years old).After Mr.Mysorekar (a Desastha Marathi Brahmin settled in Mysore) passed away,Dr.Uma.M.has completely devoted herself to Temple service.She almost lives there only 24/7--I think she has NO children.She is old and weak.

Her major achievements are the Community Center and One Million Dollar Temple expansion--Multi various Reliogion related Social activities--Vedha Patasala--YOGA (Yogi=> Tamil =>Swami Bua passed away only a few months back at the age of 104--all his disciples are Westerners and Chinese) Children activities--children "TALK" in Sanskrit !!--Senior's activities--Out-raech programmes--Medical-Health Camps-- Two Major Ratha Yatras--one Maha Ganapathi (Vinayaka chaturthi) and the other for Lord Srinivasa (Brahmotsavam).Naadhaswaram from CANADA=> Hyderabad MUSLIM (!!!! ) Brothers--100 % Classical Carnatic Music--Elephant from Florida--Go Puja--5 miles Ratha Yathra--White Caucasians--African Americans--Chinese all Enjoy--Through out procession=>Indian Businessmen provide FREE snacks-- fruits--Drinks--Sweets--savouries--Anna Dhanam almost 30,000 to 50,000 pockets on Chaturthi day alone and a little less on the remaining 9 days.

I pray God to give her a long ,healthy life. She is almost in Every Inter-religious Committee.I do not know after her whether these South Indian Hindus are going to hold each other's "KUDIMI".

She is a Kannada speaking phenomenon, She has survived the onslaught of other organized groups. She has adopted the temple, and does commit to the temple financially and physically. She is like Mr. Lee Kuan yew of Singapore. Very benevolent dictator. She is a very able CEO of the temple. I admire her spirit. Lesser person would have walked away from all these squabbles.

 

[mahakavi]

Everything you said is correct, one minor correction, they will go to their own denomination church only. A friend of mine drives 80 miles every sunday to go to his denominational church.

Of course, but it is rather rare for them to drive that far to go to their old church. Not practical over the long term. When they move usually they move to a place where they can find their own denomination unlike the Indian diaspora. Most of the time we go where the job is and not where the temple is. We will drive as far to go the temple from where we live although not as frequently as we would like. In certain cases they also yield to proselytizing by other denominations. There are cases where people jump from one denomination to another.

 

[mahakavi]

She is a Kannada speaking phenomenon, She has survived the onslaught of other organized groups. She has adopted the temple, and does commit to the temple financially and physically. She is like Mr. Lee Kuan yew of Singapore. Very benevolent dictator. She is a very able CEO of the temple. I admire her spirit. Lesser person would have walked away from all these squabbles.

Perhaps it is good perhaps not so good that she is a "benevolent dictator" (I consider that term an oxymoron). Remember the old vaDakalai vs tenkalai dispute which went all the way to the Supreme Council in London. While the Supreme council decided the dispute purely on administrative grounds ( similar to the New York supreme court decision in the Flushing temple case) the bitter wrangling that ensued was not good although the wounds have healed now.

Usually when the dictator leaves the scene there is usually chaos which the dictator does not think about. Consensus and compromise are the order of the day for Hindu temples in alien lands. But when the surviving group can bring in financial resources without the help of the dissenting group then it is not bad. As far as the ordinary devotee is concerned he/she is not worried about the management so long as the worship services are conducted without any problem.

 

[Somayaji.S]

She is a Kannada speaking phenomenon, She has survived the onslaught of other organized groups. She has adopted the temple, and does commit to the temple financially and physically. She is like Mr. Lee Kuan yew of Singapore. Very benevolent dictator. She is a very able CEO of the temple. I admire her spirit. Lesser person would have walked away from all these squabbles.

Yes.My children told me that her mother tongue is Kannada and NOT Tamil.-Prasad 1 seems to know her.--I do NOT agree with Prasad 1.--I would NOT call her a "Dictator"--She is a good administrator.--Administrators can NOT be NAIVE.

Given the complexities of running a Hindu Temple in a foreign land--her detractors can not stand even for a day.-"-Swaminarayan is an Organised "Internationally Powerful Gujarathi Group".Here she is more or less an individua depending on the Democratic votes of the member devotees--.It is why I said at the end =>"Afterwards People holding each other's "KUDUMI".

 

[prasad1]

Yes.My children told me that her mother tongue is Kannada and NOT Tamil.-Prasad 1 seems to know her.--I do NOT agree with Prasad 1.--I would NOT call her a "Dictator"--She is a good administrator.--Administrators can NOT be NAIVE.

Given the complexities of running a Hindu Temple in a foreign land--her detractors can not stand even for a day.-"-Swaminarayan is an Organised "Internationally Powerful Gujarathi Group".Here she is more or less an individua depending on the Democratic votes of the member devotees--.It is why I said at the end =>"Afterwards People holding each other's "KUDUMI".

I did term her as CEO, and benevolent dictator (as opposed to an administrator), because she has over period of time carried out unilateral actions. Her way of dealing with her distractor and employees is less friendlier than people want. She by no means is a saint. But all said and done she is great person, and an able administrator.

My terming her as a benevolent dictator was not used as a derogatory term.

 

[mahakavi]

Without knowing the details behind the controversy I do not venture to characterize the situation at the Flushing temple. I have visited the temple a couple of times, once after the auditorium next door was renovated (perhaps that was the church that was acquired). If the temple had to be run as a business with regularly constituted board, the CEO and the chairman of the board should be two different persons (we have seen lots of problems in US companies where both posts were held by the same individual). If the board has a split and if the dissenting members are in the minority they should leave and fresh elections must be held to replace them. If the board is almost evenly split (say 6 and 5 in a 11-member board) there is a near stalemate. Still the majority holds (similar to the US Supreme court judgments which are still a cause for concern in a 5-4 split). Instead of going to the court the board could have amicably dissolved and fresh elections could have been conducted. The best solution in such circumstances if a compromise on the issues involved rather than a showdown. Really unfortunate, reflecting human ego in the service of god.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Somaiyaji

Ref your post # 63

I wonder how many people know how complex it is to administer, maintain and renovate a Temple in TN.

I have been termed ' whimsical autocrat ' at times. Sometimes I have had to stand against heavy tides
of opinions and tirades of accusations - I never buckled and never got pushed around by these mini tsunamis.
This is because the bottom line was simple - we were doing God's work.

Many a time one cannot wait for 'consensus decisions' and 'majority votes'. Most often, the executive members
of the Committee will be glad that a decision has been taken, and sign like dumb lambs to pass a resolution
- even predated.

I have seen this happen since 1977 - we were 'bachchas' then, in front of Retd. ICS officers, serving IAS officers,
retd. Judges of the Supreme Court, eminent advocates, reputed auditors and industrialists.

In most meetings people waste the Hours and record the Minutes !

It's tough sticking one's neck out - especially with having to handle public money, for a public cause,
in a non-political, non-communal, non-profit making manner and then being answerable to all and sundry.

I know, first-hand how the new migrants to Singapore [mainly North Indians- after HK was returned to
China] just moved in and tried to edge out native Chettiars who had built and were maintaining beautiful
Temples there for centuries.

As regards Dr Uma and the Flushing Temple - I'm sure there's always another side to the story too.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[prasad1]

Dear Somaiyaji

Ref your post # 63

I wonder how many people know how complex it is to administer, maintain and renovate a Temple in TN.

I have been termed ' whimsical autocrat ' at times. Sometimes I have had to stand against heavy tides
of opinions and tirades of accusations - I never buckled and never got pushed around by these mini tsunamis.
This is because the bottom line was simple - we were doing God's work.

Many a time one cannot wait for 'consensus decisions' and 'majority votes'. Most often, the executive members
of the Committee will be glad that a decision has been taken, and sign like dumb lambs to pass a resolution
- even predated.

I have seen this happen since 1977 - we were 'bachchas' then, in front of Retd. ICS officers, serving IAS officers,
retd. Judges of the Supreme Court, eminent advocates, reputed auditors and industrialists.

In most meetings people waste the Hours and record the Minutes !

It's tough sticking one's neck out - especially with having to handle public money, for a public cause,
in a non-political, non-communal, non-profit making manner and then being answerable to all and sundry.

I know, first-hand how the new migrants to Singapore [mainly North Indians- after HK was returned to
China] just moved in and tried to edge out native Chettiars who had built and were maintaining beautiful
Temples there for centuries.

As regards Dr Uma and the Flushing Temple - I'm sure there's always another side to the story too.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

I will take an efficient "benevolent dictator, over an inefficient politician. Democracy looks good on paper, and is probably the best form of government, because all others are worse. Organizations can not succeed in such a democracy as it will be inefficient. Secondly it is voluntary service, and thankless service.

I think she is the right administrator, I just wish she was a leader who builds consensus.

sone pe suhaga

English translation: 'icing on the cake'

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Prasad Ji

I fully agree with you, it's the next worse thing to being a housewife - thankless.

And in voluntary public life, when one has to get down to the street, one will get
all lip service from knowledgeable looking, arm-chair analysts but on but the actual day,
[sorry for the word] their balls vanish!

I have faced it on many occasions.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[mahakavi]

At the risk of beating this issue to death, while not denying the good work done by any "benevolent dictator", there is always another side to the outcome which is swept under the rug similar to history where certain crimes and misfortunes were obliterated (as in the aftermath of a war what the victorious ones do) from public knowledge. The losing side never gets a fair hearing in any battle (like the minority opinion in a Supreme court judgment). Also it is natural for the winner to point out the merits of the outcome in a hard-fought battle but we wouldn't know if the outcome would have been better if the other side won.

Historians talk of the glory that was Greece but the helots of Sparta had a different name for it.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Prasad Ji

I fully agree with you, it's the next worse thing to being a housewife - thankless.

And in voluntary public life, when one has to get down to the street, one will get
all lip service from knowledgeable looking, arm-chair analysts but on but the actual day,
[sorry for the word] their balls vanish!

I have faced it on many occasions.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

Been there done that, had a target painted on my back. Now i have a t-shirt to prove it.

 

[tbs]

Is it because, the african american population belongs to a different denomination and have built their own church? It happens in india. Or dwindling numbers of faithful?

hi sarang,
mainly african american population in downtown area.....i think its a methodist church....

 

[Somayaji.S]

Churches are turning into temples.

"benevolent dictator"

I understand--"Lokho Binna Ruchi"--People are of different tastes.Still my anxiety is that the Institution should go for a long time for the benefit of a large population

 

[Somayaji.S]

Prasad 1 :-"Democracy looks good on paper, and is probably the best form of government, because all others are worse."

R.L.Stevenson says "Good among the bad options-if NOT worst "--"So Two Cheers to Democracy."

 

[mahakavi]

"benevolent dictator"

I understand--"Lokho Binna Ruchi"--People are of different tastes.Still my anxiety is that the Institution should go for a long time for the benefit of a large population

There is a Latin equivalent for your "lokho binna ruchi". It is
De gustibus non est disputandum----about tastes there is no disputing