Churches are turning into temples

[prasad1]

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Hi Prasad,

first off - I am born & brought up outside of TN. so nothing to do with TN or the anti-bram movement etc.. Infact I have not lived in TN at all.

This has nothing to do with defeatist mentality. Nothing good can come by coverting other's religous places & turning them to temples. even if the majority are okay, the fringe group will further get inflamed.



JK

Sir you misunderstood the op of the thread. These churches were not taken over. In USA there is no squatters, you have to owe the property in county records, which is public. Property can transferred legally and publicly. So if Swaminarayan group bought a church, school, or a factory it is legal. Once one own the property, they may wish to refurbish it, as long as they meet the code there is no problem. So banish the thought of "taking over church". If we do not pay the mortgage on Temple, the bank will take it over and sell it to the highest bidder and the government will do nothing. That is the law of the land.

 

[Somayaji.S]

wow - gosh - this will lead to massive backlash !!. Converting other religious places of worship will lead to deep resentment with the local majority christians. Indians abroad should not misuse the generosity of the white christians.

what if a old unused temple or Mosque had been converted to a Church, everyone would have been up in arms like the Sikhs did due to a silly joke by a famous comedian !!

Hindus are NOT "Converting"--if it is the right Term.

The Church Authorities themselves "Sell" the "Property" for a "Fortune" and build another Church with that amount in a different locality.Here most of the Churches are properties of Private Associations and NOT "Heritage Buildings".

New York -Flushing Hindu Temple authorities (formed in 1970) also "purchased" an Old "Church" "Sold" for a cost by Russian Orthodox Church and has built a Huge Temple complex now.Original temple was consecrated in 1977.I think Ala.Alagappan was mainly responsible.The present renovation and expansion cost was around One Million U.S.Dollar.--Ably managed by Dr.UMA Mysorekar.--I think Dr.Uma is Tamil Lady.

So there is No reason for Christians to get "Upset' about it. It is a Commercial transaction.

 

[mahakavi]

Yes, in many of these transactions there is no coercion ,which is out of question anyway in the US. This type of property sale is commonplace and the only factor is that it is a financially viable one for the party selling it and spiritually satisfying for the party buying it. It is a mutually satisfying transaction.

Mr. Somayaji:

On a separate note it is somewhat unfortunate that the Flushing temple is now embroiled in a controversy over management matters and that the case has gone to court. Did it get settled one way or the other?

 

[Brahmanyan]

: Churches are turning into temples

The discussion of this subject brings to my mind an event which happened thirty odd years ago. At that time our (Newspaper)Press was in need of warehouse space to stock large quantity newsprint reels. We approached some brokers for the purpose. We were taken to many places, but could not find a suitable building. One broker told us that he has found a very good building in cantonment area within two Kms radius of our office. We were very happy about this find.The broker took us to an old building in a crowded area. To our surprise it was an old Church building (must have been build in nineteenth century). The owners represented by a Christian Pastor told us that due to migration of their followers from the area it was decided by the managing committee to discontinue the use of the Church for prayers and rent out the building to earn some money.

Though the area was sufficient for our requirement, my Manager (a devout Hindu) and I decided not to take the place on rent for stocking Newsprint. We told the Pastor the Church building was a place of worship, it could not be used for any other purpose, and requested him not to rent out the building for any other use. The Pastor appreciated our view and told us that he would place our advise before their managing committee.

I do not know whether the place has been taken over by any real estate developer for raising a multistory building now?

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sarang]

Another confusion or refusal to understand. All saints in the past or even today from shirdi sai baba. satya sai baba, mata amrutannadamayi - one can list hundreds of such cases - had sishyas and disciples from all varnas and sections of society - rich or poor, royalty or commoner; even traditional orthodox vaishnavite acharyas have disciples from all varnas. it is futile or irrelevant to mix both.

An ardent disciple can follow two or more gurus and acharyas as long as he can handle the apparent contradictions.

You are right,
Accepting Vanashram and enforcing it in the ancient form are two different things, post#8 is cynically misleading.
Swaminarayan group does not discriminate anyone on the basis of their birth caste. They do nor limit the potential of its members to their birth caste. Actually they do not even ask for caste when joining the members. So I do not understand the meaning of them accepting Varnashram. At least they do not tell a brahmin that he can not succeed in business, nor do they score the achievements of their members as 8 for baniya and rest of India 2.

 

[zebra16]

The owners represented by a Christian Pastor told us that due to migration of their followers from the area it was decided by the managing committee to discontinue the use of the Church for prayers and rent out the building to earn some money.

I do not know whether the place has been taken over by any real estate developer to raising a multistory building now? Regards, Brahmanyan, Bangalore.

Thank you for posting a wonderful message Sri Brahmanyanji.

I think this will also be the fate of many temples in future. People migrate to other places for food and betterment leaving behind the temples, idols and Gods.

But unfortunately in India, especially in Hindu cases, the real estate is more likely to be swallowed by crooks, politicians and squatters on the property and the ancient idols, if any, surviving till then will be smuggled and privately auctioned overseas.

I wont be surprised if Hinduism survives because of the efforts of NRIs, PIOs and other well intentioned individuals.

 

[sarang]

1. Varnasrama will evolve or dissolve depending on how well some - note some - adherents jealously guard it and get due support from believers (both brahmin and others). Even my reference to the eight vaishya top rich was provided by a chettiar vaishya living in australia. He is a staunch supporter of the varna system. What is objectionable is the resolve of some to destroy it in whatever form it survives. There are still many vaidika brahmins and many send their children to veda patashalas. I know some parents who have spent their working life in corporate sector, but have sent their sons to gurukula type vedic education. We should encourage this with financial or other forms of support as they will not be getting government grants. Since many students get both vedic and conventional education, a few may stick to maintaining the tradition. The least we can do is to clamour for their destruction.

2. I am of the opinion that even in the past only a small number of brahmins were totally committed to veda adyayana-yagam activities. Majority were in the mundane professions - ministers, vaidyas, teachers of non vedic subjects; many served under kings and merchants of all varnas, though they might have learned some parts of vedas. I have seen dedicated vaidyas and astrologers of all varnas being taught/ guided by brahmin 'experts' with open discussion on samskrit and tamil texts.

3. We must stop using the word caste and use the generic jati-kula definitions. Inter jati fights are due to several reasons - wealth, sharing, ownership, rights and privileges. Muslims and christians have more inner religious kill-fights than our jati fights. That is a different story.

4. Caste/jati fights are fanned by politicians and interest groups for their own ends; there is no village level elders committee with members from all communities to reduce tension and sort of local issues.

5. If 4000 can be accepted, why not four?

Two points.
1. The varNAshrama dharma was instituted way back in ancient times in order to optimize the efficiency of the skills learned by people in various sectors. It implies that once you do a certain job repeatedly you become an expert in that and do the best job that no one else can do. But the pity is that it locked people into cells and became more or less a slavery out of which there was no escape. For example if the son of a blacksmith did not want to be a blacksmith but wanted to learn and teach scriptures he was prevented from doing so. That was the drawback. In that respect it had negative connotations when you view it from our current perspective.
2. Even when the so-called varNAsHrama dharma (which does not exist anymore) is wiped out from the books, the caste system will not go away. It is like neighborhoods, subdivisions, cities, districts etc., within a particular region. Each group tries to preserve its own characteristics. In ThamizhnADu alone there are over 4000 castes with unique identities of their own. There won't be marriage alliances within two sub-groups of the tEvar community for instance. Castes are like mini-religions. There is almost undeclared warfare among them. In my view castes cannot be abolished. When the kazhakam people promote inter-caste marriages they almost always mean alliance from a so-called "lower" caste with a "higher" caste. But they will not/cannot do anything about mayhem and murder perpetrated when two people of nearly similar castes want to marry.

 

[Somayaji.S]

Yes, in many of these transactions there is no coercion ,which is out of question anyway in the US. This type of property sale is commonplace and the only factor is that it is a financially viable one for the party selling it and spiritually satisfying for the party buying it. It is a mutually satisfying transaction.

YES.

Even Hindus do not go in search of Churches.They inform the Real Estate people(what they call Relators).They show the "CHURCHES" for "SALE"

Even now One church is for "sale" in a "Projects Area".(குடிசை மாற்று வாரியம் Multi storied Flats--NX23 floors--complex.)

 

[prasad1]

Thank you for posting a wonderful message Sri Brahmanyanji.

I think this will also be the fate of many temples in future. People migrate to other places for food and betterment leaving behind the temples, idols and Gods.

But unfortunately in India, especially in Hindu cases, the real estate is more likely to be swallowed by crooks, politicians and squatters on the property and the ancient idols, if any, surviving till then will be smuggled and privately auctioned overseas.

I wont be surprised if Hinduism survives because of the efforts of NRIs, PIOs and other well intentioned individuals.

Is there any true cause of this calamity? Or is this dejection personal?
When I visit India, most of the Temples are overflowing, young people even visiting from India flock our Temples in USA.
Why this dispair?

 

[prasad1]

Though the area was sufficient for our requirement, my Manager (a devout Hindu) and I decided not to take the place on rent for stocking Newsprint. We told the Pastor the Church building was a place of worship, it could not be used for any other purpose, and requested him not to rent out the building for any other use. The Pastor appreciated our view and told us that he would place our advise before their managing committee.

I do not know whether the place has been taken over by any real estate developer for raising a multistory building now?

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Looking purely as a financial transaction, we can easily infer that you caused the church to suffer. I know that was not your intention. Let us say that rent feed 1000 people, now those 1000 people must go hungry. That is the unintended cause of your decision to walk away.

Let us say that if they rent it to a fish market and the increased rent will feed 2000 people, economics dictates that it would be better, and also it is better use of the funds.

Sometimes you need to weigh the pro and Cons of any business decision.

We just bought a 30 acre church in an auction. We are building 40 homes and use the refurbished church building as club house for the subdivision. The county Government loves the idea as it will bring in a lot of revenue as real estate tax (non-profits are exempt from tax). We are also bringing in city water and sewer to the property, giving them additional revenue. The neighbors are happy, that the property is going to be developed and maintained, which increases their property value. These housed will also bring in tax paying home owners, who will spend their money in the local economy. So it is win-win situation.

So a decision is not that simple. It is very similar to the story of Sibi from mahabharat.
[h=2]Story of King Shibi
Stories from Mahabharata[/h]http://www.mahabharataonline.com/stories/mahabharata_story.php?id=7

 

[vgane]

I am literally flummoxed by the argument that Church being a sacred place of the Christians, we should not venture to take itover even if the process adopted is very fair, and complying with all rules & regulations...This shows as usual our very broad mindset (Hindu mindset) & we are loathe to take up any issue which shows even a semblance of us being mildly overjealous.

1. In Tamil Nadu hundreds of thousands of acres of Temple land have been encroached upon...Three decades back there was a temple pond for Vengeeswarar temple at Vadapalani in the heart of Chennai...The temple for Lord Shiva is more than 800 years old...Due to public apathy, encroachments were allowed & now the pond is completely vanished...We only have commercial shops...How did we allow this to happen..We lacked the dedication and fighting spirit locally..Hope the dedication to Hindu cause is 100% wholehearted in foreign shores..Otherwise this apathy would set in there too

2. When an opportunity comes to us (which is 100% clean) would we say no to on some pretext or other in case we are 100% committed as answer to point no 1 above

3. Also what does our scriptures say...Can we allow a Shiva or Vishnu temple without doing any modification...As it may not have been thought about by our forefathers can some guidelines be worked out..It is not a big problem..Unique problems require unique solutions..

Let us find a solution to this

Quoting Henry Ford:

" Coming together is a beginning

Keeping together is progress

Working together is success"

Let us try to find a solution

 

[mahakavi]

.....

I think this will also be the fate of many temples in future. People migrate to other places for food and betterment leaving behind the temples, idols and Gods.

But unfortunately in India, especially in Hindu cases, the real estate is more likely to be swallowed by crooks, politicians and squatters on the property and the ancient idols, if any, surviving till then will be smuggled and privately auctioned overseas.

I wont be surprised if Hinduism survives because of the efforts of NRIs, PIOs and other well intentioned individuals.

I do not believe the temples in India are in danger of extinction. There is not enough free land (like the old west in the US) in India for people to abandon their old neighborhood and move to new open spaces. If any, the population density is going to increase through high-rise apartments instead of single family houses in various neighborhoods. Hence the doomsday scenario is not realistic. Even if the real estate situation is managed by crooks they are only after individual homes to demolish and build multi-story complexes. If the idols are stolen it is because of those in charge either being negligent or greedy to indulge themselves in smuggling activities.

There is one point I want to make it here. Many small temples in remote villages in India (especially in ThamizhnADu) are in danger of being abandoned due to lack of funding and maintenance. The priests leave the profession because of lack of support. The temple structures crumble and weeds multiply inviting snakes, and other creatures. One person even wrote their experience of having witnessed a snake crawling over the moolasthAnam vigrahams in a village temple (not due to any miracle!). In such cases the idols may be stolen too if there is no regular worship service at the temple. My fervent appeal to everyone, especially in the US, is to adopt a temple in the village where they came from or their forefathers came from and send an annual contribution for maintenance. There are some paripAlan sabhas for some village temples in Chennai which manage such maintenance from financial contributions. I am contributing in a small way to maintain one such temple in my native village. If those living in the US undertake such a small effort it would go a long way to resurrect the sustenance of village temples.

 

[prasad1]

This is how you can buy a church
Church for lease or possible sale - $225000 (Danville VA)



It is from a local on-line sale site.

 

[mahakavi]

While it is tempting to buy such property and convert it into a temple at very reasonable prices I'd seriously examine the demographics of that neighborhood and poll the area folks informally through third party pollsters about how they would welcome or hold in displeasure the existence of an alien religion amidst their homes. Just a cautionary note. It is OK to buy such a property and convert it into a community center for meetings, libraries, or similar institutions.

 

[tbs]

hi
today i visited a computer repair shop in USA....intially i thought its in a office complex/mall area...i enquired through phone...
its in a old church....converted into office/showroom....i surprised see the glass panels of jesus....its mainly african american
population area....once it was gigantic church....now its commercial centre....thanks to free market/capitalism....

 

[sarang]

Is it because, the african american population belongs to a different denomination and have built their own church? It happens in india. Or dwindling numbers of faithful?

hi
today i visited a computer repair shop in USA....intially i thought its in a office complex/mall area...i enquired through phone...
its in a old church....converted into office/showroom....i surprised see the glass panels of jesus....its mainly african american
population area....once it was gigantic church....now its commercial centre....thanks to free market/capitalism....

 

[mahakavi]

Is it because, the african american population belongs to a different denomination and have built their own church? It happens in india. Or dwindling numbers of faithful?

Not really. The African-American population belongs to several of the mainstream Christian denominations (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Evangelical, Catholic etc.,) that are popular. In certain neighborhoods the population is predominantly African-American and hence the congregation is mainly composed of them. They invite Whites too in their church as do they belong to predominantly White churches too. The sale must have been prompted by declining membership in the church (due to migration) while the maintenance costs have soared.

 

[prasad1]

Is it because, the african american population belongs to a different denomination and have built their own church? It happens in india. Or dwindling numbers of faithful?

Mr. Sarang you only see division. You try to divide Indians by your rigid caste, now you want to divide the american by race. You also divide humans by their religion. You try to compartmentalize human. Unfortunately for you we do not like compartments, we are like water, we just flow and mingle. Sorry we do not fit into your mold.

Human beings are not at war, except for politicians like you who thrive in the conflict. You are a dinosaur that is all but extinct. The modern and younger generation has left the station. Bye-bye Mr. Sarang.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Looking purely as a financial transaction, we can easily infer that you caused the church to suffer. I know that was not your intention. Let us say that rent feed 1000 people, now those 1000 people must go hungry. That is the unintended cause of your decision to walk away.

Let us say that if they rent it to a fish market and the increased rent will feed 2000 people, economics dictates that it would be better, and also it is better use of the funds.

Sometimes you need to weigh the pro and Cons of any business decision.

We just bought a 30 acre church in an auction. We are building 40 homes and use the refurbished church building as club house for the subdivision. The county Government loves the idea as it will bring in a lot of revenue as real estate tax (non-profits are exempt from tax). We are also bringing in city water and sewer to the property, giving them additional revenue. The neighbors are happy, that the property is going to be developed and maintained, which increases their property value. These housed will also bring in tax paying home owners, who will spend their money in the local economy. So it is win-win situation.

So a decision is not that simple. It is very similar to the story of Sibi from mahabharat.
Story of King Shibi
Stories from Mahabharata

Story of King Shibi - Stories from Mahabharata , Stories and Characters from Mahabharata, Mahabharatam in Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, Hindi..

Dear Sri Prasad,

There are certain sentimental feelings in life which cannot be changed for any reason. Every act of ours cannot be viewed at profit motive ( or economic reasons) alone. Perhaps I may be wrong, but that is my way of looking into my actions.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sarang]

You are again getting personal and make unwarranted accusations; will you please stick to issues, if you have the needed 'sagacity'. If there is a nobel secularism prize, one potential winner can be added to the list of eligibles.

Time to start learning sanatana dharma from the first letter அ.

Mr. Sarang you only see division. You try to divide Indians by your rigid caste, now you want to divide the american by race. You also divide humans by their religion. You try to compartmentalize human. Unfortunately for you we do not like compartments, we are like water, we just flow and mingle. Sorry we do not fit into your mold.

Human beings are not at war, except for politicians like you who thrive in the conflict. You are a dinosaur that is all but extinct. The modern and younger generation has left the station. Bye-bye Mr. Sarang.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Sarang Ji, Prasda Ji

A Temple/Church/Mosque is just a piece of civil engineering. One's attempts should be
to built one in one's own heart.

My earlier posts in this thread would indicate how much I have been involved in the
renovation and maintenance of a very ancient Temple in Chennai. Building new ones is no big deal.
Preserving the beautiful stone structures with intricate workmanship and each Sthalam with its own
Sthala Puranam, records of visitation from Nayanmars and Azhwars, the miraculous anecdotes
is the real challenge .

Please gentlemen, let's not get into a slug fest.

Yay Yem

 

[renuka]

Please gentlemen, let's not get into a slug fest.

Yay Yem

Dear AM ji,

Gentlemen are BORING.
Ever seen Gladiators fight or see people mud wrestle?
We woman are not even complaining when men FIGHT!!LOL

 

[renuka]

I got some hot piece of news here..
you see its Ok to fight and not be so gentlemen.
Ok guys be ready for this..Esha Deol recently got married to Bharat Thaktani in an ISCKON temple in Mumbai.
The marriage was Tamil Brahmin style.

Ok before that read what she said some months ago about her choice of guy(taken from Times of India) http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...rviews/30285914_1_esha-deol-hema-malini-films

And obviously all this doesn't stop Esha from dreaming about her dream man. While her mom is trying to persuade her to go for an arranged marriage, Esha prefers love marriage. ""I will definitely get married. I am someone who believes in doing right things at the right time. I don't want to miss out on the lovely family life with children. But I can't have an arranged marriage. No Tamil Brahmin boy for me. My guy has to be hot, good looking, gora chitta.."" says Esha. Obviously then her taste in guys is more Punjabi than South Indian.

So guys DO NOT lose out yaar...
AM Ji please remember let men be men and let them FIGHT.

 

[ozone]

Ok, let me ask the question in a different way to find the answers but still risk being branded

The sale must have been prompted by declining membership in the church (due to migration)

What is this business of migration mean? Residents who were visiting this church have moved out and got replaced
with folks who either do not go to churches or have another one instead of this?

 

[vgane]

I got some hot piece of news here..
you see its Ok to fight and not be so gentlemen.
Ok guys be ready for this..Esha Deol recently got married to Bharat Thaktani in an ISCKON temple in Mumbai.
The marriage was Tamil Brahmin style.

Ok before that read what she said some months ago about her choice of guy(taken from Times of India) I will not marry an actor: Esha Deol - Times Of India



So guys DO NOT lose out yaar...
AM Ji please remember let men be men and let them FIGHT.

After all Esha is daugher of Punjab Da Putter (Dharmendra)