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Caste `defiles' deities, temple prohibits puja
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DrBarani
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It is necessary to know who owns the temple and under what authority. If it is owned by a private group or any organization, they have a right to set their own rules. For example, a mosque won't let in a Hindu to go do any service. Discriminations do exist, and it is not correct to say one discrimination is ok and other is not ok.
If the temple is public property, the government should order the deities again to be installed as per "agama" and allow the puja, which will end the matter satisfactorily to all sides. If the temple is not public property, the government should build another temple and hand it over to the other group to perform puja as per their own wishes.
If the temple is public property, the government should order the deities again to be installed as per "agama" and allow the puja, which will end the matter satisfactorily to all sides. If the temple is not public property, the government should build another temple and hand it over to the other group to perform puja as per their own wishes.
Ashtabhanthana marunthu has nothing to do with the agama vithi (not veethi) though there may be a mention of how the marunthu is to be prepared in the agamas. This marunthu is nothing but a sort of paste which is applied to the base of the deity so that it is firmly attached to the seat on which it stands. Considering that there is going to be daily abhishekam to the deity this paste has to be prepared to a certain formula so that it remains effective untill the next kumbabhishekam. Agama vithi is more about how to ritually bring in Saannithyam into the deity so that it becomes a deity from its earlier existence as a statue. Until a statue becomes a deity it is not worshipped as God. It appears there is some politics in the news item given here. Some one is trying to make capital from the caste divisions.
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subbudu1
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I frankly have a problem with this 1 year archaka courses. I am aware that in a Gurukal's home there is a lot of learning from environment that goes on. One needs to further add, that there is an otherside of the story like some priest family people who are drunkards , eat meat etc. How many actual priests do all this I know not.
Whatever we do I believe that people should do with full sincerity. It may be true that many of the existing lot of priests may be quite insincere. But I read in an article on these courses , that some of these neo students( outside archaka community) were adviced not to eat meat, but they did so.
One cannot compare a priest born in a priestly family who takes the vocation , with a person from outside such families who takes this vocation for a short duration course like 1 year.
There has to be a procedure for whoever is admitted and real sincerity to one's job must be there. It does not have to do with caste but there must be an intense training, if after all people are going to take that as a vocation.
Having said, this my elementary doubt. Even if the agama procedures work, what is the guarantee that the current lot of priests have the ability to infuse power into the idol. Because I understand all this is supposed to work on soul purity.
If the last statement were true, then the big question , would be are the idols currently defiled atleast in some temples or not?
These folks have decided to become priests theyt should undergo an intense 12 year course which includes mathematics, sciences, sanskrit , tamil, scriptures and of course agama learning.
If we are liberalizing then let us not do a half baked job and create finished products with little learning and little idea of what they are doing. The intense learning is applicable even for current lot of priests.
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Nara
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Dear Subbudu sir, I have a different take on this issue.
I do agree that Archakas, like everyone else, must have basic education, up to 10th standard. Under the present prevailing condition, scripture and Sanskrit knowledge is not a prerequisite to become an Archaka. So, IMO, a person who wishes to be an archaka, one who has completed 10th standard, can be trained in the relevant agamas within 3 to 6 months.
Enforcing behavioral standards is a tough one. Short of outright criminal conviction, nothing can dislodge a government employee, archaka, clerk, Manager, MD, whatever.
Whatever may be the politics, and whatever may be the truth, such reports gain immediate traction with the general public. The reason is the widespread antipathy and distrust of Brahminism. The Othuvar incident a few years back in Chidambaram is another case in point.
Some like to fault the "hate" politics for this reality -- for these same people any criticism of Brahminism is hatred towards Brahmins. Such thinking may feel good in the short run, but in the long run, if continued, will only prolong the problem.
To avoid such reports from coming out, the Brahmincal establishment must embrace these new archaka with open arms, take them under their wings, treat them with respect, etc. I am sure the transformation will not be instantaneous, trust does not come easily. But, in the long run, most of the new recruits will come to respect the old guard and, on their own, silence the handful of troublemakers. Of course, I am not unaware that the proverbial hell has a better chance of freezing over than the orthodox moving in this direction.
Cheers!
Dear Mr. Subbudu,
You are right in saying that a one year course is not enough to teach the Agamas however intense the teaching may be. But there was politics in that decision too. It is politics which decided the period of training. Some one wanted to show it as an achievement and that would be possible only if it is a one year course. People's memory is tricky, you see. I, as a politician, have to capture mind space and retain it for as long as possible. The end justifies the means. What end you choose is, alas, politics always for our dravidian politicians. Every opportunity to score a point against brahmins should be used fully to the hilt. I expected that some one in our forum will jump on you for promoting the Kulakkalvi thittam by speaking high of the environment etc in the gurukkal home and about how it gives certain values to one growing in that environment. But surprisingly that has not happened though "brahminism" has come for some oblique criticism. If, for centuries, there has been no convention of any body standing in a particular place to recite thevaram , now I will demand that I should be allowed to stand there and recite Thevaram, Thiruppukazh and Periyapuranam because I am a 'Tamil' and I am going to recite in Tamil. I don't care about the convention or Agamam. If you refuse then It can only because (1) you are a brahmin (I have quickly done a background check on you) and I am not a brahmin. This automatically makes you a tamil enemy and me a tamil hero (2) You chant Sanskrit Mantras which I do not understand and hence I want to chant something in Tamil. Any way God is not going to come and talk to you or me about conventions,Agamam or language. If you refuse my demand I have kazhagamites of different shades who can do many things. For a start they can cause an incident in the temple and get you arrested. How about that? This is Tamilnadu today. Even if others are ready to forget the so called "brahminism" ( I really do not know what this particular ism means though I have been raising this question for the last more than one year to many in this forum I have not got a reply) in their struggle for survival we have what a member here prefers to call "self-loathing brahmins" who are not ready to forget brahminism and will not allow you to just live with your belief system. This being the situation, it won't be surprising if a one month quickie course in Agamam is introduced soon!! There is an opportunity to make money there with promise of jobs.
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subbudu1
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Nara If a true person regardless of his caste performs puja in a temple, and if the Agama methods have any truth in them, then the pujas should work.
But having read a bit on this subject the idol is supposed to get its powers from the soul force of the individual. I dont know if it is possible. Here we are discussing an issue pertinent to people who believe such things are possible. So I am moving out of a sceptical mode and saying if soul force can create power in the idol and make the divine come there, then it is purely because of character and may be cleanliness and other stuff.
So the first qualification for being admitted in a course is whether a person believes in this Agama rules. Has a test been carried out to check out the belief system in the individual. If a person does not believe in Agama rules and there is a dire need for even such priests let us start new temples which dont have the agama rules in scope. Many temples in North dont seem to have any such rules in place.
The second thing I am concerned is the person follows the rules of the occupation. I have a serious problem here. Many priests I feel dont follow discipline. This is a bad example. How many archakas do Sandhyavandam properly is also a question. So by these standards and as per Agamas, regardless of the few disciplined priests ,many shrines could have been possibly been defiled already for may be even a hundred years.
Moving out of the hierarchical system is one thing. But replacing it with an incorrect selection procedure and that too 70% reservation for that is a dubious political game.
There are a lot of talented and worthy Non brahmins who will take up the job of a priest. But these individuals also look for a proper education not some superficial course in Agamas. This kind of mockery will not attract such individuals except people who are looking out for job.
When we do a revolutionary thing, it must be something that should replace the existing lot with a higher quality lot. The current system is not the case.
In the case of Kerala, I heard that the person who learnt these rituals had an intensive course in the practices of the temple rituals. That is a different case.
In Tamil Nadu K just wanted to prove a point, not interested in quality, but just political points. What do these innocent boys know what it means to live like a priest. What idea will they have on scriptures except doing some archana without knowing its meaning. If they read the meaning of scriptures they may not even like them. Has all this been tested out? What is the way out for who comes in? I am sure a regular good school with an agama combined education will attract high quality non brahmins. That is a better way than this political game of K.
In the regular priestly house atleast there is some chance that if the boy is a disbeliever he can become a professional. What route do these other boys have except getting locked into something they have no idea about! The solution can be found only through an intensive program combined with modern studies
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Right inside the sanctorum (Thiruvannamali) I have seen fully drunk assistant archakars roaming freely.Now would it matter if they are brahmins or non-brahmins? Now I would like cry on the top of my voice that if you are a brahmin be one and only at your home.
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ShivKC
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ShivKC
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subbudu sir, so god exits huh!!. in any court of law, the above testimony is more than enough to disprove your arguments in n'other thread.. strange, but true.
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Nara
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Yes sir, my personal view -- all this agama rules are like the mantras Thengai Srinivasan chants in Kasethan Kadavulada, placing kumkum on various places -- is irrelevant. My presentation also, like yours, is about consistency within the rules they say they operate under.
If one were to follow these agamic rules strictly, ritual purity is a must to perform priestly duties, which only a Brahmin can have. Therefore only a Brahmin can be a priest. But this is already out the window by law. So, we can leave ritual purity out in the current situation.
Next, the character of the priests -- from what little I know I think the supposed sannidhyam invests in the idol because of the power of the mantras chanted according to rules and procedures. The character of the invoker is not part of the equation at all. In fact, I think those who believe in this stuff would argue that faith in these invocation mantras is not needed, such is the power of the sound of the mantras. Said differently, the belief is, even if the invoker is a super duper Brahmin with impeccable character, if the rules are not followed and the mantras not chanted properly, sannidyam will not invest, and even if the invoker is a pucca nastika, if he follows the rules and chants the mantras properly, sannidyam will invest.
This is the theoretical view, about which not many may care.
From a practical POV, i.e. from the POV of temple visitors, they have no idea whether agama rules are being strictly followed and the mantras are properly chanted or whether the idol still maintains the supposed sannidyam or not. They come and they go, not to be bothered with these technical stuff. From practical POV of the archaka, extracting as much money as possible from the out of town visitors is the most important aspect of daily poojas. Agama does not enter the picture in any way.
We must also keep in mind that there are two kinds of priestly duties, (i) day-to-day pooja and (ii) special poojas like Utsavams. For day-to-day preistly duties all that the priest must be able to do is decorate the idol in a pleasing way, offer some spoonful of water, do archanai, then ring the bell and show harathi, that is it -- if you are able to do this in an entertaining way, everyone will be impressed. You can learn this in a week or two.
Special poojas are usually done by priests with lot more experience. Even the most experienced consult books when performing these rituals. These new recruits, if treated with respect and affection, will gain that experience and will be able to do these occassional rituals also in due course of time.
MK is most probably politically motivated, but that is not the issue, IMO. He probably wants to expose what he sees as offensive and discriminatory practices. The flip side is, these Brahminists are also playing their own game, applying ritual purity (theettu) rules to humiliate and keep these recruits away. Both are playing their own nefarious games.
Cheers!
Mr. Nara and Subbudu Sir know a lot on this subject.. I have nothing to say on the rituals, prayers, and participate in discussions as to when a statue gets exalted into a God, etc. etc. (I stick to my original view that ALWAYS the statue remains as a statue... Kadavul has been always a Kal, IMO).
I am learning from them.
Cheers.
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subbudu1
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Yes there seems to be a game especially with somebody here having said that they had seen some of the priests drunk within the sanctum of this particular temple under discussion. The consistency just does not exist.
I have not seen any drunk priest or a priest drunk while doing his duties. But I have heard enough about some of the children of these archakas, who are in the modern profession drunk and otherwise - the eligible archakas of the next generation.
The real question is , how much real belief in god is there, even among many(not all ) of the priests. We have seen the story of the kanchi priest (the story of the porn video). We are all well aware of the conduct of many of the priests. Then again even in other religions, you have fathers exploiting the nuns and children. All this would it exist if there was an unshakeable faith in God. Or are we all so morally weak that we know we will be punished for something, yet fail to have control over our actions?
If the theists really want to lead an honest life, they must reform the temple and make sure that only proper priests are selected . Giving a blanket approval of the priests, regardless of their conduct, is pushing the issue under the carpet for now. But all this will finally boomerang.
tks
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To all non-theist -
A telephone is a piece of plastic and you talk to it!
A person unfamiliar with say a cell phone or cordless phone would think that one is out of their mind to be conversing to it. It is a piece of plastic after all.
You will explain that "Hey I am not talking to the plastic, I am talking through the plastic"
Well, a theist does not worship or talk to a stone!
They talk through the stone which is an icon or image for them.
It is not necessary for you or anyone to agree if a person can or cannot talk to their Ishta-devatha that way. So long they are not minding your business, all the you have to do is to just respect their approach to seeking peace. The respect you show to their belief system is the respect you show to them as a person.
You are a mature person in my view, if you are able to do that regardless of your own belief system whether it be Hindu or non-Hindu or Atheism or a psedo-atheism or some other ism
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tks
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DrBarani -
There is irony, negativity, pessimism and even immaturity that comes across with some of the posts.
Viewed another way it is comical, so let us have a good laugh!
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subbudu1
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Yamaka I appreciate your polite words. I would not have marked these words in bold had tks not replied to it condemning you for saying this. It is clearly marked as your personal view and not claimed it as a fact. Are we living in the land of taliban with strict codes in place that a personal view can never be expressed.
In North India, this is exactly what Dayanand Saraswati of Arya Samaj said so. Now Arya Samaj followers are a sect within hinduism in themselves. There are many brahmins who are part of this movement. Should somebody bring in Dayanand Saraswati's quote in this regard? And then we can say that if anybody expresses an opinion against Dayanand Saraswati, their feelings will be hurt.
Welcome to Taliban.
I am not sure if you have seen brahminical mindset in the generation who came from the early 1900 and even earlier. Their mindset was theendal, the presence of any criticism was considered theendal. Only thing left is for the anti-atheists ( if there is truly one ) to have a cold bath and putting sufficient water on their head. Prokshanam will not do.
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subbudu1
Guest
If through mantras it is possible to invoke god into a stone, it should be possible to invoke God into a human being. Are there any Agamic objections to this?
Subbudu Sir,
This is little known -- MK actually played the damper in the archaka training case.
It was actually Jayalalitha (JJ) who as the then Chief Minister announced in the TN Legislative Assembly on 9 April 1991 that a college to train Archakas (irrespective of caste) would be started. I should expect the lady to truly follow Srivaishnava philosophy that does not discriminate on the basis of caste.
The Government (under JJ) even acquired the necessary land near Trichy to start the Agama teaching college. But by the time progress cud be made her party went out of power. Then DK appealed to Karunanidhi to finish the project started by JJ. But Karunanidhi (MK) simply sat on it. He did nothing despite protests by DK members.
It is pretty well-known that MK has become a neo-brahmin. Almost all his family members have married brahmins or are on the way to marrying brahmins in the 3rd generation round. So he is infact not interested in social issues anymore. He merely talks things for the sake of political mileage. But when it comes to action, he does nothing wrt these issues.
Regards.
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subbudu1
Guest
I think the Central Government should allow a format for a generic curriculum in School which will be flexible to allow a deep study of Agama,Vedas, Sports, Arts etc. I am not impressed by the quality of school education in India. The second thing is how do we attract quality people as school teachers. Let us focus on education first, specific kinds of jobs being available later.
To build a good education system we must develop a good barebones skeleton for our system
The skeleton is this
A minimum (not a heavy duty) and low pressure but quality education provided in all approved Schools, where there is provision for supervision. What this means is that minimum history, social studies, Mathematics etc should be followed. I am fine if that means even a simple linear algebra in class 10 in Mathematics, not anything more in geometry beyond pythagoras, and so on. In history apart from knowing little bit about rennaisance , skeletons of Indian history, and post world war world nothing more is needed. We really dont need one chapter on Harappa civilization, where one page will do.
Depending on inclination different electives can be added right from the lowest of classes depending on the inclination of Children. A minimum of electives have to be passed to be promoted to each class. With this bear bones student can mould himself according to his interest. If Agamas have to be learnt lets have a primer on Indian scriptures and Vedanta. Then after that if students want to choose Saiva Agama. An intense course of one year should be added on saivaite beliefs and regulations. The implication of being a saivaite. If he is interested further then the next year should focus an observational learning. Here he gets to see the rules in practice. It turns out he does not like it, he should walk out. This is the way forward I believe.
We may never find good teachers in all subjects for all schools. So the solution is to adopt a share model. The student, in case of electives enrolls with the Government not his school. So whether it is sports , it is arts or anything the Government will enroll him in the Government centre nearest to his home. This supplemented by Video, by internet should do it
It is convenient to think that non-brahmins do not have any innate casteist tendencies and that they inherit (or inherited) such tendencies only from brahmins. That does not become a fact. MK is a non-brahmin casteist. That is all!
C RAVI
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God can be invoked into a stone, provided it's done with the true bakthi and belief of the pure soul, doing so. And can be realized only with self realization. Can not be attempted to prove to others that God is been invoked into the stone.
Invoking god into human not possible, because the soul of the human is the part and parcel of the Supreme Soul. One has to invoke the supremacy within himself/herself. Still one can not become equal to God, who eats from mouth and extracts the waste from back.
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