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Caste as Culture

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Sri.Nara said :-

In this verse, Sri Krishna says all bhathas, even the ones who show bhakti for some lesser material goal, are generous, because if they don't exist, Sri Krishna's ஒளதார்யம் (generosity) will remain concealed. In kther words, it is through their generosity of seeking help from Sri Krishna that the lord is able to show his ஒளதார்யம்.

Greetings, Sri.Nara. It is my pleasure to enjoy one more exalted interpretation of
ஒளதார்யம் through BG, 7:18. As of today, I never saw that verse in that angle at all. I just took that as complementing the devotees who performed Saranagathy. Thank you very much for this interpretation and the Kural quotation.

Dear brother Raghy, I don't know why you get the impression that I am opposed to helping poor people. I am not even opposed to caste-based charities for helping poor among their own caste.

Sri.Nara, in one of the swayamvaram thread, there was a message from you about the literal meaning of 'downtrodden'. The conversation at that time was focused on helping poor and vulnerable persons. As the saying goes, 'மத்தளத்திற்கு இரண்டு பக்கமும் அடி', there are some caste brahmins who are treated as the lowest amoung the caste brahmins; as 'forward community' by the government reservations. When it comes to poor and vulnerable persons, they all fall under one caste as 'poor persons'. I need not explain any of these things to you. When you asked about the literal meaning of 'downtrodden', it was viewed by many members as your questioning on the basis of caste. Following your message, in the same thread, என் திருவாயை எடா கூடமாக திறந்தபடியால் I could not continue to talk addressing your message.
Anyway, that was Sri.RVR's grivance, which was echoed by few other members too. I just thought I should bring that to your notice.

Sri.Nara, something tells me, a small group (including you) here in this forum will be going a long way in the future involving in social activities.

Stop 'caste bashing'? Why? kindly read my above reasons, please. 'Caste bashing' and 'caste eradication' is very good for the well being of the society. It is a pity the caste system was left to last this long.


Sir, you may eradicate caste.But in the same strike, you are also trying to eradicate hinduism,karmaphala. by doing so, you are hitting the roots of our ancient religion. This is the reason our Acharyals are not talking about caste eradication.This the thing missionaries are doing in our country. And people like Nara are only indirectly giving support to conversion. God, knows, by portraying himself as a no religious person, he may be indirectly supporting christians and westernworld. I have met many such tamizh brahmins like this.

Greetings Sir,

people like Nara are only indirectly giving support to conversion. God, knows, by portraying himself as a no religious person, he may be indirectly supporting christians and westernworld. I have met many such tamizh brahmins like this.

Sir, by your own admission, you have not been in this forum for long. For some weird reasons, your discussion is focused on Sri.Nara. Sir, I humbly request you start a thread by a title 'Discussion about Nara'; it would be better than writing off-handed comments like this. Let me assure you this- 'Sri.Nara knows more about Hinduism than anyone I have met in my life'. (by the way, I am not young. that is to say, I have met many persons; heard many persons).

Did you say 'he may be'? Well, there is no room for assumption; this forum knows how Sri.Nara handled proselytisers (read 'who is brahmanan' thread, please). Sir, I request you to read majority of the messages posted by Sri.Nara. If you still persist after that, I will be more than happy about discuss about Sri.nara right in front of him. Does not sound decent, is it? well, that's what is happening here. Kindly learn to discuss about the messages; we are not here to discuss about the authors, thank you.

Sir, you may eradicate caste.But in the same strike, you are also trying to eradicate hinduism,karmaphala. by doing so, you are hitting the roots of our ancient religion. This is the reason our Acharyals are not talking about caste eradication.

Eradication of caste system will not weaken Hinduism in anyway. But, it will strengthen it. the theory of Karmapalan is an illusion. Our ancient religion never had 1,000 castes. All it had was four varnas. Again 'each individual went through one of four varnas, in everyday life depending upon his/her guna & karma at that given time'. That situation was exploited...people were divided in four categories..further exploited paving the way to castes..1,000 and growing.

This is the reason our Acharyals are not talking about caste eradication.

Sir, kindly leave our acharyals out of this discussion. By the way, I think we should leave Sri.Nara too out of our discussion (to Sri.Nara's disappointment, of course!).

Quotes from A guide book for Missioநரிs-2

The people of India number, according to the census of 1901,
291,236,000--about one-fifth of the inhabitants of the globe. This
population represents more races than are found in the whole of Europe.
Besides many small tribes, it has eleven nations, the least of which numbers
2,250,000 souls. Of these nations seven are of Aryan, and four of
Dravidian, extraction; and they differ in physique, temperament and
language. Between the sturdy Aryan on the north and the degraded
primitive people on the plains of the south there is a great gulf. Between the
clever and subtle Baboo of Bengal and the war-like Marahtta of the west,
the bold, spirited Pathan in the north and the passive but enduring
Dravidian in the south, there are many intermediate classes which furnish
wonderful diversity of character and temperament. Among these people
there is not, and cannot at present be, a sense of oneness.
The inhabitants of that land are a rural people. Unlike western countries,
India has very few large towns. Nine-tenths of the whole population live in
villages of less than 5,000, four-fifths live in villages of under 1,000
inhabitants. The average village of India today contains 363 inhabitants.
During the last few years the tendency has been towards towns. But the
large increase in the population is still to be seen in rural regions. In India
two-thirds of the villages have less than 200 inhabitants each, while 1,000
have from 5,000 to 10,000 inhabitants. Notwithstanding this fact, the
population, in some parts of the country, is very dense. The whole of
Bengal furnishes 360 persons to the square mile, and in the United
Provinces of Agra and Oudh the total per square mile rises to 416.

from: India's Problem Krishna or Christ by
John P. Jones
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Quotes from A guide book for Missioநரிs-3

One of the most marked characteristics of India is its poverty. The people,
as a whole, have always been extremely poor. There has been some wealth
in the land; but it has not been evenly distributed. While a few nabobs have
enjoyed immense treasures, the people, as a whole, have grovelled in the
lowest depth of penury and want. There is better distribution of wealth
today than ever before; and yet the poverty of the masses continues to be a
serious feature of the land. "Its finance lies at the base of every difficulty
connected with our Indian Empire," is the remark of Sir Charles Dilke. And
at the base of the finance difficulty lies the poverty of the people. It is a
well known and lamentable fact that one-fifth of the population, say sixty
millions, are insufficiently fed even in ordinary years of prosperity. They
are the ever ready prey of the first drought, distress or famine that may
happen. It is a not uncommon experience of the ryot (or farmer) to retire at
night upon an empty stomach. The average income of the common labourer
in India is between four and five rupees, or, say, $1.50 per month.

from: India's Problem Krishna or Christ by
John P. Jones

The Analysis Continues.......
Quotes from A guide book for Missioநரிs-4

Most of this evil which the people endure is self-imposed. They reveal a
combination of blind improvidence, reckless expenditure and an
unwillingness to shake off impoverishing customs. For instance, the debt
incurring propensity of the native is akin to insanity. All the poor people
with whom I am acquainted are bound hand and foot by this terrible
mill-stone. And the interest paid upon loans is crushing. Two and three per
cent. per month is an interest commonly received. It is rare that a poor
farmer who gets into the clutches of the money lender regains his freedom.
It usually leads to the loss of all property and means of support. Under the
ancient Hindu law no money lender could recover interest upon a loan
beyond the amount of the principal which he had advanced; under the
present rule he can recover to any extent, sell the tenant's crops and even
take possession of the land under a judgment decree. It is one of those
instances where justice in law is made to minister unrighteousness and
cruelty in life. The people moreover are given to the most extravagant
expenses at marriages and funerals. It is frequently the case that a man
spends upon the marriage of his son or daughter, the latter especially, more
than a whole year's income. I know of many who are overwhelmed by
debts incurred for the marriage of their children; and the saddest thing
about it is that they have little option in this expense; for it is prescribed by
caste custom.

Same from the previous source..
Very clever indeed....
To be continued....
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For those who want to eradicate caste, may read this and try refute it.
caste,Dharma,karma are interlinked and is a part of our vedic system.

Can a new Brahmin Caste be Created ? from the Chapter "Grhasthasrama", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

"This is not acceptable in the least. I am a representative and spokesman of the sastras. It is my duty to state that this (making Vedic dharma common to all castes) is not permitted by the sages who created the sastras and assigned the duties special to each caste. They (the sages) were known for their spirit of sacrifices and impartiality and they had no interest other than the happiness of mankind"....contd

Read what our Maha Periyaval says.

Can a new Brahmin Caste be Created ? from the Chapter "Grhasthasrama", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:


There were 3 famines in India.

1. Year 1769 - 1800
2. Year 1802 - 1838
3. Year 1854 - 1908.

But the famines became a frequent event in India during the supremacy of the s British in India. During the rule of the British s East India Company India suffered in from twelve famines and four severe scarcities. The significant of those was the greats famine of Bengal of 1769-70, which claimed a large toll of lives.

More in depth here

"The loss of life by war in all world during 107 years (1793-1900) is five millions while the loss of life by famine in India during ten years (1891-1900) is 19 millions!..
ref: Prosperous British India by Mr William Digby.

[to be continued... ]

ı request you to reveal yourself ıe ıdentıty and personal ınformatıon to the moderators, whıch ı wıll follow up wıth them for veracıty purposes only. ıf you dont mınd ısr.

prof nara ıs an honoured member here and has the respect and ı could say even affectıon of a large number of folks here, even though they mıght not agreee wıth hım for one mustard seed.

you need sdharma, to establısh yourself as an honoured member here before you start accusıng members of longstandıng wıth baseless allegatıons.

secondly, thıs ıs a forum, where all of us, from dıfferent angles wısh for the betterment of brahmıns. ı respect your vıews but at the same tıme,ıt ıs essentıal that you learn to respect ours. though we may appear to be on opposıte sıdes of a shıeld, let us remember that we are on the same shıeld.

personally ı thınk, the more ınward lookıng we become, the more ısolated we wıll be. most of the TB communıty has eschewed rıtuals and practıces whıch they found wantıng ın purpose. prımarıly because those rıtuals dıd not gıve them a suffıcıent enrıchment ın lıfe and theyhad no uses to treat such rıtuals as a deposıt for the next.

you personlly are welcome and wıll be able to practıse the extremes of castes. but you are lıvıng ın a changıng world, where the concept of absolute equalıty before god whıch the concept of caste to ıts very foundatıon denıes. ı personally do not thınk much of kanchı mutt - ın thelate 50s, one of my recently wıdowed young aunt, wıh 5 daughters, wıshed to see themutt head for consolatıon. she was refused admıssıon on the grounds that her head was not shaved and she was not wearıng whıte. on that day ı lost all respect for themutt.

there are event turnıng days of ındıa - durıng ındependence or the dawn of the dravıdıan revolutıon- where the mutt could have come forward wıth a current ınterpretatıon of the scrıptures to be ınclusıve ın nature. ı thınk the threat to hınduısm ıs not from wıthout but from wıthın - folks lıke me who cannot stand the concept that before God some folks are more blessed than the othersş and people lıke dalıts have no salvatıon. that ıs absolutely unacceptable.

our scrıptures are reflectıons of tımes. ı am more ın tune wıth swamı vıvekananda or chınmaya - ı thınk sdharma,ıf on theır behalf, letme lean on theır shoulders, and challenge you to beıng a spokesman of the sastras. one would have thought that educatıon and erudtıon would enlıghten one,s mınd. ıt ıs sad to seethe depth of darkness whıch penetrates so deep so as to prevent the germınatıon of new seeds of ıdeas and openness.

hope thıs explaıns.

anand, ı agree wıth you. ı would not lıke to see ındıa transformed ınto a natıon of mcdonalds and bıkınıs. but one of boeıngs and steve job2sapples ... ? not a bad thıng would you say?

ıt has been the norm of the forum to avoıd cut pastıng long artıcles but to provıde the url so that members can read ıt dırectly from the orıgınal text.

thıs ıs only a courtesy to other members and also to the owners of the forum, as long artıcles take up valuable storage space, and we do not pay anythıng for the upkeep of the forum.

ı would lıke to know what you thınk ın your own words. the ınternet ıs full of stuff whıch can support any absurd vıew or lıes. to quote one such author,ı thınk, would be lıke only lookıng at one poınt of vıew and claımıng ıt to be the truth.

ı stıll do not understand the purpose of what your posts has to do wıth the tıtle of thıs thread.

thank you.
Sri Sdharma,

I earnestly feel that Sri Kunjuppu has given you right suggestions.

There are differences of opinion on matters relating to our community development.

Divergent views are expressed here.

Let us listen to all the views. Let us rebut opposite views also politely and firmly.

Probably you would have seen my views also relating to our community development.

Ultimately each and every individual is going to follow his own path. Nobody can force other to change the path. After all this is only a discussion forum.

You must have seen from forum threads about swayamvaram functions organised by some of our members. I am also associated with this activity. Ultimately we are guided by the views of the participants of the event. We are doing only for their benefit and their views are much more important than any other view.

We have followers of different philosophies here. There are members who doesn't follow advaitha philosophy. Again within the advaitha philosophy followers, not all follow Paramacharyal. May be you and I are followers of Paramacharyal. I wish you avoid bringing Paramacharyal into our discussions.

Let us continue discuss on the points raised by various members. May be out of these discussions, some new opinions may emerge which will be good for our community.

All the best
For the benefit of others in this discussion, all of Sdharma's posts from now will be visible only after a moderator has approved them.

This restriction will be removed only after he answers the question sent to him via private message.

Dear Sir,

ıt has been the norm of the forum to avoıd cut pastıng long artıcles but to provıde the url so that members can read ıt dırectly from the orıgınal text.

thank you.

Regarding this opinion, "Brahmins were the reason for the NB's misery while all along living at the mercy of NB's".

Majority of my friends & family were middle and lower middle class. They were having various profession (which supported their families only partially) including edu pidi velai, selling bajji & Bondas house to house, office boy, teacher & taking tution and those families were many. but I knew few of the rich families in Agraharam treated majority of the families badly. I have seen these few families dominating the entire agraharam, treating others from the own community and other castes very much degraded. Because of them the whole B's were / are suffering from the wrath of NB's and IB's (intellectual B's).

Though those Influential Brahmins had their way in all areas, entire culture and community is standing under the flash light and criticized upon right from their dress to habits and dress codes & dilect.

This kind of wealthy brahmins shielded their position from this kind of abuses the one who is suffering in villages and other places are the one who has come up on their own doing all type jobs.

ı would lıke to know what you thınk ın your own words. the ınternet ıs full of stuff whıch can support any absurd vıew or lıes. to quote one such author,ı thınk, would be lıke only lookıng at one poınt of vıew and claımıng ıt to be the truth.
Sure, I believe that the caste issue has taken multi dimensional proportion, because of the looting by the british rulers, and our politicians. What Moghuls could not do, the british rule did it in couple of centuries to finish hinduism. I wanted to understand why, our people became poor when all along we were rich so much so that many french dutch Portuguese & English visited our country to do the trading in our country. What attracted them? I do not think that their voyage is to annihilate the castes and make our country more prosperous. British broke our back bone of village life. There are evidences, but after 19th century everything is attributed to Brahmin bashing.

I found the following books through net.

1. India's problem is Krishna or Christ by John P Johns
2. Commentary on British Rule by Britishers with various quotes & correspondences.
3. The condition working class in England in 1844 by Friedrich Engels.

and many websites.

The humanity is full of differences. I have the feeling that Varna system is used to Tame the animal nature within the human and to have minimum collateral damage due to the conflicts. We have seen in the world around us, they are Master and slave system and many many died without even a single record. Our system meant for non-violence. The Master and slave system is replaced by Capitalist vs workers.

As the time changes, our society too is undergoing its natural change, but annihilating brahmin's lifestyle, which one of the good model to live peacefully, with simplicity is not good. They are known for the Non-violence. I think it is no problem to keep ones lifestyle and tradition within home if one wishes and at the same time treat all other castes equal. Every caste has its own uniqueness and they are proud about that. It will then be a very good society shielded from Missionaries and converters. In short, society with castes without religious string attached.

back to the cutting and pasting..
By mentioning the title of the book and page number, many of the readers wont have the time to search download and read. I will do it elsewhere and provide a link here if its OK. I am providing this only for knowledge for those who is not aware of this, including me.

IMHO, caste is our culture and the efforts are to put to iron out the differences not annihilation,which will result in greater injustice and chaos. Instead we encourage individual castes custom and participate without differences.

If our society is not bound morally, we can very soon reach a fate of poor african countries not US considering the resources vs population and country laws and loop holes.

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