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Brahmins and Society

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Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
This is a continuation of this thread.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?p=16007#post16007

Thank you kunjuppu and hariharan1972

Man is a Social Animal said Aristotle. Being a citizen, while certainly implying participation in various political responsibilities, was more about being a part of society; contributing to the good of the whole.

This is what I was trying to emphasize. Religious conservatism apart, a man is expected to be a part of the society and contribute to the welfare of the society. Our ancient Brahmins were aware of this. Yagnavalkya did not just confine himself to the definition Of Brahman or the compilation of the Sukla Yajur Veda. He also wrote the Yagnavalkya Smiriti which is about the laws and conduct of the society. The entire Dharmasasthras are about the general rule governing the society. This shows the concern of the ancient Brahmins toward society. They tried to improve the society by laying down the codes of conduct generally known as Dharma. The very fact that there are 18 Dharmasasthras shows that the Dharmasasthra were redrafted to suit the needs of the society.

Let us now now zoom to the modern age. The Bengali Brahmins were in the forefront of social reforms. Abolition of Sathi, Widow remarriage etc. The sathi issue did not concern the Tamil Brahmins as there is no recent history of this practice in Tamil Nadu. But it is mentioned in Tamil literature. In Widow remarriage the Tamil Brahmins were active and most of them supported it. Again later when it came to abolition of Child marriage, Untouchability and temple entry for all castes, some of the Tamil Brahmins played an active role. But in Abolition of Child marriage (Sharada Act), Widow remarriage, and later giving property rights to women, our religious heads were against all these. Some of them even campaigned against it. So we see that Tamil Brahmins were socially active and many of them were actively involved in these progressive measures.

Things started changing in 1960s. The Tamil Brahmins did not have effective leaders. In this vacuum the religious leaders stepped in. History tells us that these religious leaders like madathipathis and mahants were more interested in promoting their Madam as the the most ancient, going to the courts in succession battles and other activities which were for the benefit of the individual madams than either Hinduism or the community.

Religious leaders are more interested in the propagation of their own brand of religion than the welfare of the community. When any community starts looking up-to religious leaders for directions regarding their social goals, that community is bound to suffer. The religious leaders are all socially conservative. The days of Yagnavalkya and Gowthama are in the long past.

There is a section of the Tamil Brahmins who would like the definition of Aristotle to be changed to "Tamil Brahmin is a Religious animal." Their social awareness is very poor. When someone who knows all about the problem of Ramar Bridge, Conversion by Christians and all other so called issues affecting religion, but feigns ignorance of a burning issue like "The two tumbler", it is very difficult to believe. Every one in India about what Untouchability means. To talk about Acharam that too to a Devi Upasaka is the limit. People would not even give their daughters to Devi Upasaka families because of the Acharam involved. My grandmother was so strict, that when we were very young we had a game of trying to touch her. She would run. But that did not prevent my grandmother from cooking and serving food to Christians and Muslims and all castes when the need arose. This is a familiar tactic called Obfuscation.

This section of the Tamil Brahmins have withdrawn into a shell where all that matters is some often imagined slight to their scriptures, traditions etc. For them the rest of the world does not exist. Entha Kattil mazhai Penja enna?

Individuals can afford the luxury of withdrawing into a cocoon and wearing blinkers like the proverbial three monkeys. But a community can not afford to do it.

The Tamil Brahmins are often portrayed as a persecuted community. Since the reservations are not directed only against them and as long as there are other communities which are in the forward list, this persecution is more of use of terminology than factual. There are some who would like to whip up the "persecution complex" in the community for their own benefit. The fact is that the community has been Marginalized.

But to come out of this we have to move with other communities. To do that you should have social awareness. You have to be a social animal contributing to the welfare of the entire society. Fortunately the majority of the community are aware of their social responsibility. I read a story in a Tamil magazine some time back about a conservative Tamil Brahmin woman conducting classes for the slum children in her house in Chennai. There are hundreds like that.

Let us contribute to the welfare of the society. Most of the social issues involve religion. But that does not make it a religious issue. Become more active on social issues. That is the only way the community can defeat the evil designs of some people who want to isolate us. By withdrawing into a Cocoon and quoting the writing of religious leaders who were known social conservatives, we are only helping these people. Follow your religious leaders with respect to religion only. There is another community with a well known religious leader. But they have formed their own party under some other leaders.

Let us become Social progressives. There was a time when if two communities had problems between themselves, they used to approach a Brahmin for conciliation. That is because it was believed that Brahmins were fair and just. They trusted us. That is what made us great. Not because we had money or because we recited the Vedas. We provided leadership. We were known as Fair and Just people. Let us regain that Glory.
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
After reading Kunjuppu-ji's and Hariharan-ji's posts, am putting down some of my thots here.

Hv been speaking about caste, origins, and such stuff since past 7-8 years after a few unforeseen incidents. I started travelling to the south of Madras in Tamil Nadu only after marriage. And I depend a lot on others for their views and opinions.

On my own, i am empty, or rather dumb enuf, that I hardly have an idea or opinion of my own. Every time, i put myself in someone's else's shoes and relate to things how he / she might see it. Needless to say, there is no opinion, no view point or no idea that has lasted for a long time inside a head that probably is designed for emptiness.

Things that have remained persistent with me over the years is that I cannot relate to, or do not believe in, class systems, branded goods, stature systems, exclusivity, rigid lines, rituals that cannot be explained, making comparisons, and complaining without seeking solutions.

Am beginning to realise that now i totally dislike talking about caste, for the fear that dealing with the subject constantly, can make me a casteist myself; and am tired of looking at things by putting myself each time in someone else's shoes.

Now my limitations are many. For example: I have not come across the 2-tumbler system and the views i get from the elderly people i know are mixed. All agree it was a long time back. However, from what i gather as a product of all my circumstances as listed above, i can only say this:

1) I cudn't agree more with Kunjuppuji's post.

Integration is the key though i feel it its better not to bring marriage into the picture - if such a wedding happens, probably it was just fate at work (?).

Sir is right..the more one sees oneself as a persecuted person, the more one makes the persecutor feel he is winning.

The context of religious conservatism is not only changing, rather it seems like it has already changed. A good many brahmins upon upanayanam stopped dedicating their life to vedic learning as a brahmachari a long time back. Such a brahmachari went to a regular school like anyone else, not a vedapatshala. The social challenge appears to be of a brahmin not living life as one (as prescribed by Sri Mahaperiavaal), but wanting to be considered as one.

The context of ritual purity appears to have taken different avtars at diff points of time. What was impure in the 10th century might not have been considered impure in the 15th century. The dharmashastras do not seem to relate to what the current 21st century context of 'impurity' should be. The social challenge appears to be of a brahmin expecting to think that he should follow the shastras but confounded with ground reality when he sees how disconnected it is from what was prescribed a long time back.

2) Hariharanji's post is right on dot. The ones that are called 'dalits' currently need to realize that its not the so-called 'forward castes' who are responsible for their situation. Its the political ideology (and politicians) that use (or abuse) "caste" which is responsible for everyone's lack of progress.

An aside: Please do not see my posts as pro-dalit, pro-brahmin or any such thing. There is no such intention to side with anything. Depite thinking twice, i do often ramble. Am aware, my posts can come across as ambivalent, contradictory, undecided or vague. Rest assured, the intension however is not to cause hurt though.

Regards.
 
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Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
I grew up in a family where we never identified anyone by his/her caste. Since my schooling was outside Tamil Nadu, I was always classified as Madrasi. In schools where there are hardly any south Indians this created a problem at first. But then by the second year it was forgotten since I do not wear my south Indian identity on my sleeve. Had the advantage of not fitting their image of a Southie.

Human beings have this habit of placing people in identified slots. That way they feel comfortable. But there are pre-conceived notions about each community. I have been often asked "You are so fair? How come you are a South Indian". Many people in North of India believe that all South Indians are black.

Such pre-conceived notions exist about castes. He belongs to such and such a caste. So he must be like this. This is pre-judgment. There are many pre-conceived notions in Tamil Nadu about Brahmins and the anti-Brahmin propaganda has done considerable damage. These pre-conceived notions depend on the caste and the region where the other person is from. brhmins laso have such pre-conceived notions about other castes.

The community has to work for removing these pre-conceived notions. It is easier said than done. But you need not wear your caste on your sleeve. I have seen the advantage I had over other Brahmins in Tamil Nadu because people thought I am a North Indian. Like you are mistaken for a Spanish in U.S. They do not like them. But you are White.

I do not wear any religious symbols outside home. Only recently I have taken to retaining my tilak while going to the temple because I was being mistaken for a Muslim.

My stay with Tamil Brahmins was restricted to holidays from school/college. Then I did stay in Tamil Nadu for a long time. Then I was never accepted fully by the general Tamil Brahmins because I was too westernized for their taste. But I was accepted by my Guru and the Brahmins who knew me. They considered me strange . That is all. Again I speak in pure Tamil. Some people in Tamil conferences have asked me whether I am a Sri Lankan because of my Tamil.

The point is for social interaction in Tamil Nadu, it does not pay to wear your caste on your sleeve. Our culture and traditions are for our personal benefit and not for public display.

Just an opinion from one who has faced/is facing all kinds of discriminations during the entire life. I had no advantage because I was born a Tamil Brahmin.

Someone might say this is opportunistic. This is pragmatism. A community has to be Pragmatic if it wants to succeed.

pragmatism refers to behavior which temporarily sets aside one ideal to pursue a lesser, more achievable ideal.
 
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s007bala

Guest
>>We were known as Fair and Just people. Let us regain that Glory.<<

Best analysis.

sb


 

[email protected]

Active member
I just accept this word Fair and just people.Let us regain that glory and we should get our Rights at our Homeland Tamilnadu,from the Non Tamil rulers(avidanParties}. We should join with other Tamil communities and fight for us. S.R.Krishnamurthy.
 
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Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Any community has to be sure of its goals to enable it to interact with society. The immediate goal of the Tamil Brahmin community should be the economic upliftment of the poorer sections of the community. And also the improvement of our relations with other communities.

When someone targets a community, it is only the economically weaker sections of the community which suffer. It hardly affects the middle class and the rich.

We should also understand the limitations of the community. In a democracy no community can play a major political role unless it has the numbers. We do not have the numbers.

The Parsees are a rich and influential community. But politically, the last Parsee who counted was Dadabhai Nowroji in the 1890s. Take the Maharshtrian Brahmins. They were defacto rulers of the Mahratta empire. The Peshwas. Then they had leaders like Lokamanya Bala Gangadhar Tilak, Gopala Krishna Gokale and so many others. The first anti-brahmin movement was started by Mahatma Phule and later by the Ruler of Kolhapur. But because of their traditional good relations with the Mahrattas it failed.

Where are they now in Maharashtra politics? Except Bal Thackeray they do not have any leaders. Even Shiv Sena plays the OBC game. Maharashtrian Brahmins also go abroad. In fact they did in grater numbers earlier. Even in a city like Pune which had a Brahmin majority earlier, there are very few Brahmin leaders. I am quoting Maharashtrian Brahmins because culturally they are like us. Sanskrit loving, Vaidic Brahmins famous for their orthodoxy. Highly educated.

So any dream of the community playing a major role in politics is just that. A day dream.

Let us concentrate on helping the poor and needy in our community and improving the relationship with other communities. The improvement of our relationship with other communities will lead to the improvement of our image.
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Let us concentrate on helping the poor and needy in our community and improving the relationship with other communities. The improvement of our relationship with other communities will lead to the improvement of our image.

Perfect Shri Nacchi, this is the need of the hour...

But not just for our image, for the betterment of the society as a whole... and to get rid of this mess which is prevalent now...
 

tbs

Well-known member
Any community has to be sure of its goals to enable it to interact with society. The immediate goal of the Tamil Brahmin community should be the economic upliftment of the poorer sections of the community. And also the improvement of our relations with other communities.

When someone targets a community, it is only the economically weaker sections of the community which suffer. It hardly affects the middle class and the rich.

We should also understand the limitations of the community. In a democracy no community can play a major political role unless it has the numbers. We do not have the numbers.

The Parsees are a rich and influential community. But politically, the last Parsee who counted was Dadabhai Nowroji in the 1890s. Take the Maharshtrian Brahmins. They were defacto rulers of the Mahratta empire. The Peshwas. Then they had leaders like Lokamanya Bala Gangadhar Tilak, Gopala Krishna Gokale and so many others. The first anti-brahmin movement was started by Mahatma Phule and later by the Ruler of Kolhapur. But because of their traditional good relations with the Mahrattas it failed.

Where are they now in Maharashtra politics? Except Bal Thackeray they do not have any leaders. Even Shiv Sena plays the OBC game. Maharashtrian Brahmins also go abroad. In fact they did in grater numbers earlier. Even in a city like Pune which had a Brahmin majority earlier, there are very few Brahmin leaders. I am quoting Maharashtrian Brahmins because culturally they are like us. Sanskrit loving, Vaidic Brahmins famous for their orthodoxy. Highly educated.

So any dream of the community playing a major role in politics is just that. A day dream.

Let us concentrate on helping the poor and needy in our community and improving the relationship with other communities. The improvement of our relationship with other communities will lead to the improvement of our image.

hi nacchi /sesh/sp/
namaskarams,,, last some days i was just watching/reading yours articles..
i think in a stage now..........im just observe........not any comments..
but now i feel.......WE HAVE TO LEARN FROM ISREALITES/ JEWISH COMMUNITIES..helping poor with education/medical/volunteerism
in the communities....organising/partcipation of young generations..
its a long journey now........we lost our golden chances... in politics
like Rajaji/t t krishnamachari/ r venkataraman like personalities..
we lost many things in grass roots level.....even our own acharyas
not able to organize and getting inside the grass roots to our
community....so others are taking advantages....being minority
they enjoy majority power.. this is our sad story....i still see
a silverline in the horizon....

reagrds
tbs
 
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s007bala

Guest
Our community should orgainse to get in self-employment instead of salaried class.This will change the financial clout that exists now.Becoz money is power.

sb
 
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Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Bala,

Tamil Brahmins are in the fore front in starting Industries. TVS, Amalgamations, Easun to name a few. Tamil Brahmin community boys have led others in starting industries. We have money power. But that will not translate to betterment of the community.

History. Baron Rothschild a prominent Jewish banker financed England's war against Napoleon. The Jews have always had the money. But that did not prevent their persecution. In fact it was one of the reasons cited by Hitler for persecuting them.
 
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s007bala

Guest
Shri Nacchinarkiniyan

First things first.I read your post explaining your moniker.Even though i am no scholar of Tamizh litreature,but i used to struggle to learn.I speak five languages,four are Indian ethnic languages and one international language.Though one of my favourite Classic is Thiruvaliadal,especially the movie as enacted by the thespian Nadigar Thilakam Shri Shivaji Ganesan.

I accept about your views about TVS,Easun Groups,Amalgamation Groups,TTK ...etc.The community leaders so to speak,once they attain a status of leading,they want to hold on to it like a leech.This is true of all communities.India that way,is till swayed by dynastic succession,which in my opinion,is a sick mentality.Therefore,i grudgingly respect various Kazhagams that have sprouted in TN.I am one of those few unsung chaps,who initiated,policy decisions to Shri MGR thru Kanchi Mutts leaders via my parents.I dereive immense satisfaction,when i saw *******...etc such organistaion sprouting up for the unity of brahmin community and its welfare programmes.But i am saddened to say,that Mahaswami soundly scolded us,for our errant behaviours.I certainly am no saint nor a sinner.I am just a free soul,with no boundaries of religion,nationality,gender..........aham brahmasmi.....ok ,i better stop my blabberings..lol. :)

sb
 

malgova.mango

Active member
Nacchi!

This is a continuation of this thread.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?p=16007#post16007

Thank you kunjuppu and hariharan1972

Man is a Social Animal said Aristotle. Being a citizen, while certainly implying participation in various political responsibilities, was more about being a part of society; contributing to the good of the whole.

Your assumption religion and society are 2 differnt spheres is erroneous.
"Myeva Sakalam Jatha, My Sarvam prathishtitham , Myeva Layam yathi..."
In me all , born, sutains and dissolves - CLEARLY indicating Bhagawan - the point of religious discussion and society are not different.

In fact the very order of Birth is a prasadam by Bhagwan. Birth is not an isolated phenomena .. Jati is an integral part of religion and society - Answer me directly... if you can.

This is what I was trying to emphasize. Religious conservatism apart, a man is expected to be a part of the society and contribute to the welfare of the society. Our ancient Brahmins were aware of this. Yagnavalkya did not just confine himself to the definition Of Brahman or the compilation of the Sukla Yajur Veda. He also wrote the Yagnavalkya Smiriti which is about the laws and conduct of the society. The entire Dharmasasthras are about the general rule governing the society.

Do you mean - Y Smriti - doesn't acknowledge Jati?

This shows the concern of the ancient Brahmins toward society. They tried to improve the society by laying down the codes of conduct generally known as Dharma. The very fact that there are 18 Dharmasasthras shows that the Dharmasasthra were redrafted to suit the needs of the society.

does any one differ on the major structural issues like Jathi? Just say yes or no. if yes , then quote.

Smirtis are revelations - each rishis have their own revelations and so we have 18 of them and for Kali Yuga - Yagnyavalki Smriti is recommended.

Let us now now zoom to the modern age. The Bengali Brahmins were in the forefront of social reforms. Abolition of Sathi, Widow remarriage etc. The sathi issue did not concern the Tamil Brahmins as there is no recent history of this practice in Tamil Nadu. But it is mentioned in Tamil literature. In Widow remarriage the Tamil Brahmins were active and most of them supported it. Again later when it came to abolition of Child marriage, Untouchability and temple entry for all castes, some of the Tamil Brahmins played an active role. But in Abolition of Child marriage (Sharada Act), Widow remarriage, and later giving property rights to women, our religious heads were against all these. Some of them even campaigned against it. So we see that Tamil Brahmins were socially active and many of them were actively involved in these progressive measures.

but the results you see in the society is anything but progressive....

As with any vratha Pathi Vratham too done on voulantary basis - some women observed austerities -some they decked the white saris and lived a life of penance - I personally know of many hymns sung by one old widow lady in the ectasy of the penance.

I'm up against giving property rights to women - this cause many strains in the society.
See in our society "Kannika dhanam " is what is done. Once the father give away the daughter - what right she has? All the "seers" are done out of love purely love. She has to live in what is provided by her husband - that's the whole beauty. then only he gets some satisfaction and so she too.
anyway all kinds of half-baked thinking or served as progressive... so one has to tolerate the non-sensical values of modern intelligentsias...

Things started changing in 1960s. The Tamil Brahmins did not have effective leaders. In this vacuum the religious leaders stepped in. History tells us that these religious leaders like madathipathis and mahants were more interested in promoting their Madam as the the most ancient, going to the courts in succession battles and other activities which were for the benefit of the individual madams than either Hinduism or the community

Religious leaders are more interested in the propagation of their own brand of religion than the welfare of the community. When any community starts looking up-to religious leaders for directions regarding their social goals, that community is bound to suffer. The religious leaders are all socially conservative. The days of Yagnavalkya and Gowthama are in the long past.



There is a section of the Tamil Brahmins who would like the definition of Aristotle to be changed to "Tamil Brahmin is a Religious animal." Their social awareness is very poor. When someone who knows all about the problem of Ramar Bridge, Conversion by Christians and all other so called issues affecting religion, but feigns ignorance of a burning issue like

"The two tumbler", it is very difficult to believe.

no need to believe - that's not at all the main point. the point is - there are many solutions to your 2-tumbler system . Your imposing ways to force others to accept others saliva is very asuric.

Every one in India about what Untouchability means. To talk about Acharam that too to a Devi Upasaka is the limit. People would not even give their daughters to Devi Upasaka families because of the Acharam involved. My grandmother was so strict, that when we were very young we had a game of trying to touch her. She would run. But that did not prevent my grandmother from cooking and serving food to Christians and Muslims and all castes when the need arose. This is a familiar tactic called Obfuscation.

This section of the Tamil Brahmins have withdrawn into a shell where all that matters is some often imagined slight to their scriptures, traditions etc. For them the rest of the world does not exist. Entha Kattil mazhai Penja enna?

Again - your generalisation and sweeping statements - no point in anymore discussions with you.


Individuals can afford the luxury of withdrawing into a cocoon and wearing blinkers like the proverbial three monkeys. But a community can not afford to do it.

The Tamil Brahmins are often portrayed as a persecuted community. Since the reservations are not directed only against them and as long as there are other communities which are in the forward list, this persecution is more of use of terminology than factual. There are some who would like to whip up the "persecution complex" in the community for their own benefit. The fact is that the community has been Marginalized.

But to come out of this we have to move with other communities. To do that you should have social awareness. You have to be a social animal contributing to the welfare of the entire society. Fortunately the majority of the community are aware of their social responsibility. I read a story in a Tamil magazine some time back about a conservative Tamil Brahmin woman conducting classes for the slum children in her house in Chennai. There are hundreds like that.

Let us contribute to the welfare of the society. Most of the social issues involve religion. But that does not make it a religious issue. Become more active on social issues. That is the only way the community can defeat the evil designs of some people who want to isolate us. By withdrawing into a Cocoon and quoting the writing of religious leaders who were known social conservatives, we are only helping these people. Follow your religious leaders with respect to religion only. There is another community with a well known religious leader. But they have formed their own party under some other leaders.

Let us become Social progressives. There was a time when if two communities had problems between themselves, they used to approach a Brahmin for conciliation. That is because it was believed that Brahmins were fair and just. They trusted us. That is what made us great. Not because we had money or because we recited the Vedas. We provided leadership. We were known as Fair and Just people. Let us regain that Glory.

Only empty words fill your post .......
 

happyhindu

Well-known member

I'm up against giving property rights to women - this cause many strains in the society.

See in our society "Kannika dhanam " is what is done. Once the father give away the daughter - what right she has? All the "seers" are done out of love purely love. She has to live in what is provided by her husband - that's the whole beauty. then only he gets some satisfaction and so she too.
anyway all kinds of half-baked thinking or served as progressive... so one has to tolerate the non-sensical values of modern intelligentsias...

Am glad i do not have to deal with such men in real life.

Am also beginning to see why one end of the dalit society is rigid as it is and why one end of the brahmin society is rigid as it is. Am glad i was born in neither groups.
 
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Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Again - your generalisation and sweeping statements - no point in anymore discussions with you.
MM, my friend.

I am happy that you do not want any discussions with me. I had expressed a similar desire earlier. Not only in this thread, but in any thread in this forum. At least in this we are in agreement.

Take care.
 
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s007bala

Guest
Brahmin girls today,are well educated lot.They are assertive of their independence and rights.If brahmin men expect their women to be like their mothers,grandmothers...boy are they in for a shock.Get real guys.The year is 5110 Kali Yugam.

sb
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Only empty words fill your post .......quote]

malgova,

may i please explain the way i interpret nacchinarkiniyan?

all religious edicts are time based - ie they are the reflections of values at a point in time and hopefully some guiding principles to get us through this world in a wholesomely, whatever may be our beliefs.

however, societal norms change. for example, female education in our community, is something that we take it for granted. and that too to a level of equal opportunity with the males.

this may not have been the conditions in our grandmothers' time and definitely not in our great grandmothers' era. so, in this instance, we have become 'socially progressive'.

the religious leaders and establishment of all religions, given a chance, have consistently put as many barriers as possible to female education. even now, the taliban has re-enforced laws barring girls' education.

all sorts of explanations may exist, but the reality is that as time progresses, the values of our community has changed, attempting to be in sync with the realities of the times.

i have given you one example. i feel comfortable in extrapolating the dichotomy of social progressiveness, vis a vis, religious conservatism.

while nacchi has been an advocate of the above, i like to think, that i am progressive both socially and in religious. that is me. it neither makes me a hero or a villain. it just defines me.

i have enough respect for nacchi, by virtue of his numerous posts, clearly enunciating his erudition, and his practice of logic and arguement, in a classy and dignified manner.

in this context, i wish you had not posted the quoted statement, at the top of this post addressed to him. it does not add any value to your posts. in fact, i think, i think it detracts the other contents of your post(s).

thank you.
 
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s007bala

Guest
>>i have enough respect for nacchi, by virtue of his numerous posts, clearly enunciating his erudition, and his practice of logic and arguement, in a classy and dignified manner.<<

Shri kunjuppu

I think so to now,after trying to read old posts in the forum.I think Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,is connected with teaching and giving lectures about Theology,Philosophy...and lives in the USA...i could of course be totally wrong in my inference.Shri Malgova Mango whom i fondly refer as Mambazathhu Vandu,is very engaging.But i guess we do have some excellent moderator's who promptly censor posts.Good going ,i must say.Tamil Brahmins Vetri Nadai Podunga.

sb
 

malgova.mango

Active member
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]you said ....[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]why kanya dhanams? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is how it is. have you ever seen kannan dhanam anywhere - common lets talk within the framework of our culture...your whims and fancies by nature cannot be discussed only can be viewed.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For pitru karyam - a list of preferred choices are given, so if there are no son a daughter can do and she is entitled for the rights that comes with the duty.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hey - please understand , we follow the scriptures , and we with our puny human intelligence do not set any rules. So one has no choice here. If one wants to challenge this , then consider all the factors affecting the issue and give a satisfactory reply , that way it is progressive... imposing one's half-baked ideas is not a way for progression only retrogression.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Morover, If you prefer one way , another one prefers the opposite way to your way . How you reconcile? No way . So we accept scriptures as the supreme authority and follow it. Then as followers we expect others to follow suit, that's how we get harmony and unity. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]By asking others to bend to your preference you are creating only dis-harmony. For others have every right not to bend so. Might is Right is Asuric way. What is Right is Right is Suric way.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You and I don't determine what is Right . We accept Scriptures are the source to determine the RIGHTS. That's why Mahaswami said I'm just a follower and cannot change anything for I don't have any authority to do so. Understand...............[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Another point - We take daughters from other house and treat them as daughters of our house. she has property rights . A girl is benefitted in anycase what?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif].................................................................................................................................................[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Important point [/FONT]

Even as kunjuppu says norms are relational notion and could be changed .. Please answer these points........

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Once given in “ Kanya Dhanam “ as witnessed by The LORD , all devatas and Manushas, Pitrus, how can daughters have “property rights” in their birth place? On what Logic – please answer me this first.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If the father give then it is one thing, if the father passed away without any will. On what basis they can claim rights? They are born to the father is one fact, they are “GIVEN” by the very father infront of all the possible witness to another family is also a fact what?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]They enjoy the property as wife of the family they went is also a fact what? ( If they are going to quibble with the brothers , then , they be jolly well reminded, there karma will haunt them in turn and their husbands will also have endure this from their sister's in future. This is a new papa karma that our society is subject to in the last 50 or so years. It didn't gain strength at that time, but now this is gaining currency. The results will be telling for years to come.)[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]LOVE among SIBLINGS are at stake by this half-baked Law. If sisters expect brothers to live elsewhere to gain some money from the property – please don't expect the love between siblings to remain as strong as ever.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Does the HINDU Law didn't know , what's happening in our marraige or what? Or the law makers mock our marraige rituals ? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Family is the bedrock of society? How can they be so callous ...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif].....................................................[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]QED – To “GIVE” in love is one thing to demand as “RIGHT” is another thing. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]............................................................................................................................................[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You take daughter from other house and treat her like your own daughter giving her all the rights - that's the beauty - that's how acceptance and love of others are nurtured. If you give only to your loved daughter, it is not love , it is possession showing the immaturity in one's part in not accepting the daughter in law as one's own daughter. It takes years of refined culture to give and take daughters and love the one who has come in as daugter in law as daughter ... my dear – not easy for any un-refined culture it takes milliena of years to refine a culture. To live a wanton life it takes only minutes.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You give to daughters, as “seer “- that's ok , so for pongal you give, karthigai you give, deepavali you give, that's love I understand- but don't tell they have” rights “ even after marraige and they can compete with the brothers. This will poison the sibling relation. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now you answer me, with one house to live with his parents and family , if the sisters fight for the house - how can he carry-out his duties? where will he go? if right from small age , if he is told that he has no right for the house and brought up as such - then it is different. You expect from him the duties but deny the rights - Is this Fair? Is this not an insult to him? Any duty-bound son will be hurt . Hey you bear in mind she (daughter) has another place to live , but for son it is his only place to live. Be practical about it and give me your solution.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hey even without property rights - a daughter can nurture love to the house she born what? for true love she doesn't need any property rights what?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Remember she enjoys the property of the house she enters as WIFE by default. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Inrelation to the DUTIES expected from a SON as he given the RIGHTS ? - 2nd question [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As for women education , I've already registered my view – you registered yours. Let them first do their duty – which is anchoring a family – on top of that if they do some extra things my kudos to them. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But compromising the first – if they do any other thing like, even going to moon – it is a complete waste of time for them – they won't get any ful-fillment out of that. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Some people may cheer them, they may feel ok or hung-up for a while but deep inside I bet they won't have any satisfaction. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Regards[/FONT]

P.S A SOCIETY SHOULD BE FAMILY DRIVEN FOR PROGRESSION WITH LOVE AND CARE- NOT CORPORATE DRIVEN . YOU ALL JOLLY WELL KNOW WHAT MOTIVATES A CORPORATE.

for a family a woman who is born for that should anchor and support , this is the fundamental duty of women.
biologically, psychlogically she is born to nuture and one should not comprimise this value for any imagined beatitudes.

Moderators - I know my views are not favoured by you guys. Please be direct with me - If you don;t want me to post views - just tell that. I 'll stop visiting this forum.
 
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malgova.mango

Active member
kunjuppu!

i don't find "YOU" behind your posts, you said what motivates you is not a fair discussion but simply to present alternate views.

i'm not here to spend some past-time to toy with various ideas.

please don't expect me to reply to your posts.

Just in a nut-shell - the bone of contention is ALL the so called progressive ideas didn't bring any progression only retrogression. If you live in India you would quickly grasp the immensity of the issues.

Regards
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]- but don't tell they have” rights “ even after marraige and they can compete with the brothers. This will poison the sibling relation. [/FONT]

By God's infinite grace, forget women, there is no man i know anywhere -- husband, father, brother, son, brother-in-law, son-in-law, father-in-law -- who thinks this way.
 
S

s007bala

Guest
M M

The posts got deleted.I am unwilling to continue this exchange in the forum.If you wish,we can exchange personal emails,to satisfy,our Gyaanam.Moderators are there for a reason.



sb
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
kunjuppu!

i don't find "YOU" behind your posts, you said what motivates you is not a fair discussion but simply to present alternate views.

i'm not here to spend some past-time to toy with various ideas.

please don't expect me to reply to your posts.

Just in a nut-shell - the bone of contention is ALL the so called progressive ideas didn't bring any progression only retrogression. If you live in India you would quickly grasp the immensity of the issues.

Regards

mm,

not sure by what you mean 'YOU' here. would you mind enlightening me on that, if you don't mind please.

mm, this is a forum of ideas. i think it is welcomed, when well presented and in a dignified form. i think, by and large, you do exactly that.

you are presenting your views, and definitely proposing, a way of life, according to the scriptures. there is nothing wrong with that, and i don't think anybody here, including the moderators, will do anything to prevent your presentations.

i had only pointed out, one inane remark of yours to nacchi, which i felt was unwanted, and which was a blemish to your often erudite messages.

in your last para, re progressives, i may be wrong, but i detect a sense of frustration or chide here. so be it. not all of us can agree on everything.

i think there are more things that are common among us than those that differentiate us. i always focus on that, when i pen posts, which when particularly is a response or query mode.

re the issue of equality to our females, personally i feel, that the hindu succession and the marriage acts, did more to emancipate our mothers, sisters and daughters than any other one single instance i can think.

to give you an example, my grand aunt widowed issueless, and was driven out without one penny from her husband's immensely wealthy household. she had no legal standing to claim even money for support and spend the rest of her life, at the mercy of her brothers largessed.

ofcourse this happened in 1930s. today we find this incredible. incidentally all the mutts and including the then president rajendra prasad opposed the bill.

if we carefully examine our day to day lives, i suspect, that there will be many elements, where we have side stepped the laws of the scriptures. may not be because we are selfish or a matter of convenience, but more as an exercise of practical common sense.

it is this exercise, that folks like nacchi & krs, have encouraged in this forum - blatantly put as intellectual honesty.

thank you.
 
S

s007bala

Guest
Shri Kunjuppu

What an absolute mastery of english language you command sir.Gosh,this kind of mastery used to exist with my teachers ie really elder's.

sb
 

malgova.mango

Active member
kunjuppu!

please recollect some of your old post. some posts in the mid of discussion you abruptly dis-continued, in one you said your intention is to present alternatate views.

how can one hold discussion , if "YOU" are not available or your intention is not discussing a point but someother agenda...

please answer my questions first on the property rights issue. then i'll address the issues you have raised in this regard. that is , if you have genunie about conversation.

on nacchi, post - i stand by what i said (please read the context of the thread). he has extensive knowledge no doubt. but not the depth. he is a posture of contradictions.

i see both his asset and weakness.

again - i'm only a critic of the post and not of the person.

regards
 
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