• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Brahmin by Birth?

Status
Not open for further replies.
What is required to be a Brahmin by birth? Two Brahmin parents? What if the parents are from different areas and/or ethnic groups? If one parent is enough, must the father be the Brahmin or does that not matter?

I don't understand Tamil anymore (I forgot every word), so please don't branch into it in your answers.

AP
 

RVR

Well-known member
What is required to be a Brahmin by birth? Two Brahmin parents? What if the parents are from different areas and/or ethnic groups? If one parent is enough, must the father be the Brahmin or does that not matter?

I don't understand Tamil anymore (I forgot every word), so please don't branch into it in your answers.

AP

Sri Arul Pillai,

your question implies that you want explanation for brahmin as a caste.

For the answer, we have to go to legal explanation as per Indian Laws since only Indian Government accepts the caste system.

As per Indian Government laws, the child inherits the caste of the father by virtue of birth. Irrespective of the caste of the mother, if father's caste is brahmin, the child is considered as a brahmin. There is no differentiation based on language.

But each and every caste in India has its own practices of considering whether the children of inter-caste married couple belong to their own caste or not. There is no hard and fast rule on that. It is purely a personal practice of individual castes and nobody can give clear cut explanations. Normally a child is considered belonging its own caste if both the parents belong to the same caste. If not, there is no clear answer.

Hope I have clarified your doubt to the best of my ability.

All the best
 
Last edited:

DURGADASAN

Active member
Nowadays it is getting fashion among many of our society people settling abroad or even here itself simply saying that we forget Tamil... A really bad situation. Am sorry AP sir, am not blaming, am just telling the exact situation to alert.

Pranams
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
durga,

i have met people of indian heritage and tamil heritage, with tamil names like dayalan who have been removed from india for over a hundred years.

time, communications, culture, society, oceans, generations all have been factors in distancing them from india.

so, it might not be fair to say that it is a 'fashion'.

now a days, there is a chance, with opened up communications, for those of indian ancestrage, who are abroad, and who are interested, to get in touch with their roots. but till the advent of the internet, it was not so.

re indians, who don't speak the language, while living in india, again, it is upto them, isn't it? they know not what they have lost?

thank you.
 

Raghy

Well-known member
I agree with Sri.Durga Dasan. Sri.Kunjuppu Sir, Sri.DD does not high light the point of not able to learn Tamil at all; it is the situation of 'forgetting Tamil' after learning it at sometime in the past. It is a bit hard to 'forget' Tamil after learning it. One may loose the fluency in the language; understandably, one may not like to use the language without the proper fluency to avoid embarressing situations.

Cheers!
 

DURGADASAN

Active member
When the persons are settling abroad, it does not mean that they should slowly giveup their originality. It is the situation to slowly learn other (that particular region's) customs and language. In today's hi-tech society, man is learning so many things, cant he learn two languages (of which one is ofcourse his own native language)? As Raghy uncle said, the problem is not learning, it is with forgetting. Since a father migrant lost or hided his fluency of his own language in his home, the next generation itself turned to lack of the language. Be it be whole business in outside. Atleast in their home, they can speak in their language na??? This is a very pathetic situation even in India, even Tamilnadu itself. Parents will be more happy when their children call them "Mom" "momma" "dad" and they correct their children if they call them simply as "amma and appa". This is a serious growing concern whereby a life of language itself stands as a questionpoint before us...

Pranams
 

amala

Well-known member
I totally agree with Sri DDJi. Here in London I observe Sri Lankan Tamils and how they inculcate their culture, language, reading and writing Tamil to their children. They are so unbelievably proud of their Tamil culture and heritage and when I compare them to some TB families I know here (admittedly not many), I must say the TB families are relaxed with their kids in learning Tamil and speak more in English etc. This is possibly because of social class. I'm not sure.

Nevertheless it warms my heart to see the SL Tamils. They appreciate all things Tamil probably because their very existence is a threat in their homeland. We don't generally appreciate things we take for granted till we've nearly lost them.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
raghy, amala,

if you read my note carefully, i was indeed in agreement with durga regarding current migrants from india.

i do not know about you, but i have met people with tamil names from south africa, fiji, trinidad, jamaica, zimbabwe, guyana and mauritius. these people's ancestors left over 100 years ago from india.

they were cut off from india. they do not know tamil. their names are also quaint from our viewpoint, because we do not name our chldren sarojini or pakkirisami any more.

it is amazing that they still follow hinduism, without the benefit of brahmin priests and are more a hindu than many TBs coming from india, who just bring their prejudices bag and baggage, and remain aloof from the rest of the tamil or hindu communities.

also, these folks' kids, most of them do not know tamil. some get fanatic about carnatic music, but again, it is from an elitist viewpoint. that is our community abroad to you.
 

Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
There are two questions raised by Sri Pillai in this thread.
In so far as the caste is concerned, I agree with most of the points given by RVR. But, because of the chromosome factor of the male which decides the sex of the child perhaps,it is the caste of the father that is generally followed.There are many such families where Upanayanam is done without any qualms.
In sofar as language is concerned, I agree with Ms.Amala that an ethnically threatened group clings to its culture,language and religion far more ferociously than others.In so far as TBs or Tamils in general is concerned,majority consider speaking in English gives them a status and , therefore speak less and less in Tamil, even among themselves. In this respect, we have to salute Bengalis and a few similar linguistic groups.
Ramanathan.
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Kunjuppu,

"i do not know about you, but i have met people with tamil names from south africa, fiji, trinidad, jamaica, zimbabwe, guyana and mauritius. these people's [COLOR=#5ea0c3 !important][COLOR=#5ea0c3 !important]ancestors[/COLOR][/COLOR]

left over 100 years ago from india.

"...they were cut off from india. they do not know tamil. their names are also quaint from our viewpoint, because we do not name our chldren sarojini or pakkirisami any more."

Sir, my previous assertion was with respect to 'forgetting Tamil after learning it' only. Yes, even from the second generation, learning Tamil becomes a difficult task. But nowadays we have sources in the net, which may hopefully tilt the balance in Tamil favour. Of our children, our son (27 yrs) talks very little Tamil. He was born in India. Our daughter (17 yrs) can hold a conversation by relpying in English (She was born in Australia). But amoung them, they speak in English. As Kunjuppu rightly pointed out, the group which left India continue to live in the same year (kind of a time warp). I feel that too.

Cheers!
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
raghy,

of interst to note here, is that, the indian consulate in durban, south africa, i heard, has started tamil lessons finally. they had originally started hindi lessions, but were convinced by the local tamil community of tamil heritage, to start tamil classes too. yeah!

a very nice love story here. happened a few years ago. i had a lady middle aged bengali colleague. all of a sudden she quit her job of nearly 25 years. when asked her reason, she replied that she had asked for a 3 month leave of absence, which was refused.

the reason? to go to calcutta to arrange her canadian born brought up son's marriage. it appears, this english speaking only child, while on a vacation to calcutta, fell head over heals in love with a bengali girl, who told him that unless he learned to be fluent in bengali she would not deal with him.

sure enough, in six month, our romeo, learnt from the web, c.ds and from his mom, fluent speaking bengali, proposed to his lass, was accepted. 'what more pleasure could a mother want than this?' mused my colleague, as she cheerfully handed over her resignation letter. :)
 
OP
OP
A

ArulPillai

Member
I'm 1/4 Tamil 1/4 Malayali 1/4 English 1/4 Celt (mostly Irish with a bit of Scot), but I am also a 4th generation Karachiite. My Tamil speaking mother died when I was young and there was no way for me to keep up the language. My Ammachee (that's what I call her, I'm not sure if it's a Tamil term though) is the only one left who can read Tamil, all of the people from my mother's side can still speak and understand it fluently though. "Arul Pillai" is actually an ancestor's name and not mine, I have an English name.

AP
 
OP
OP
A

ArulPillai

Member
I'm 1/4 Tamil 1/4 Malayali 1/4 English 1/4 Celt (mostly Irish with a bit of Scot), but I am also a 4th generation Karachiite. My Tamil speaking mother died when I was young and there was no way for me to keep up the language. My Ammachee (that's what I call her, I'm not sure if it's a Tamil term though) is the only one left who can read Tamil, all of the people from my mother's side can still speak and understand it fluently though. "Arul Pillai" is actually an ancestor's name and not mine, I have an English name.

AP
 

amala

Well-known member
ArilJi this is very interesting. I never knew there were tamil people in Pakistan (im assuming Karachiite as in Karachi Pakistan)
 

Nara

Well-known member
I'm 1/4 Tamil 1/4 Malayali 1/4 English 1/4 Celt (mostly Irish with a bit of Scot), but I am also a 4th generation Karachiite.


Dear brother Arul, whatever mix you may be, 1/4, or 1/2, your choice of moniker could not be more beautiful. Arul is the ultimate love, love for all life forms, just because, the unconditional love only a mother can have for her child. Here is what the greatest of great Thiruvalluvar says about Arul:
அருள் செல்வம் செல்வத்துள் செல்வம் பொருள்செல்வம்
பூரியர்கண்ணும் உள.


The greatest of treasures is Arul, other material wealth, even the wicked have.
One more,
அருள்சேர்ந்த நெஞ்சினார்க்கு இல்லை இருள்சேர்ந்த
இன்னா உலகம் புகல்.


Those with love for all (Arul) in their hearts, are free from the grief of this sinister world.
Dear friend, hope you continue to stay with us and be a part of our lives.

Cheers!
 

renuka

Well-known member
There are two questions raised by Sri Pillai in this thread.
In so far as the caste is concerned, I agree with most of the points given by RVR. But, because of the chromosome factor of the male which decides the sex of the child perhaps,it is the caste of the father that is generally followed.There are many such families where Upanayanam is done without any qualms.
In sofar as language is concerned, I agree with Ms.Amala that an ethnically threatened group clings to its culture,language and religion far more ferociously than others.In so far as TBs or Tamils in general is concerned,majority consider speaking in English gives them a status and , therefore speak less and less in Tamil, even among themselves. In this respect, we have to salute Bengalis and a few similar linguistic groups.
Ramanathan.

Dear Dr RamanathanJi,

Even though it is the male who decides the gender of the offspring
but women in India or even in Malaysia are blamed when they give birth to female child.

I have seen so many patients get blamed by their Mothers In Law.
I just tell them that the male Y chromosome which decides...

Man can get away with anything.... Yet to see anyone blaming them for producing female child.
 

DURGADASAN

Active member
Respected Renuka mam

Is that happens even in Malaysia? What about the marriage systems there? Why dont you throw some light over that...

Respected AP sir
As quoted by Nara ji, Arul is exactly a tamil name. Pillai denotes to 'child' 'boy' at the same time a community too. Which system you follows now? I mean marriage and other social gatherings, since much of the customs have been mixed. (I think all the 4, which you said have rich in there cultures, ofcourse in their own way too)

Pranams
 

renuka

Well-known member
Respected Renuka mam

Is that happens even in Malaysia? What about the marriage systems there? Why dont you throw some light over that...

Respected AP sir
As quoted by Nara ji, Arul is exactly a tamil name. Pillai denotes to 'child' 'boy' at the same time a community too. Which system you follows now? I mean marriage and other social gatherings, since much of the customs have been mixed. (I think all the 4, which you said have rich in there cultures, ofcourse in their own way too)

Pranams

Dear DurgadasanJi,

You know you can take an Indian out of India but you can't take India out of an Indian.

Even here people blame DIL when they keep on giving births to girls.
Some even say that its the female who has no luck to carry a son etc.
Parents want their first child to be a boy always...
If its a girl they are disappointed.
Even chinese are like that.
For them they must have male to pass on the family surname.
Some traditional chinese do not consider their daughters children as their grandchildren because of the different surname they carry.

Well coming to marriage in Malaysia... Its like this..The engagement cost will be bourned by the Girls side and the Marriage cost will be bourned by the Boys side.
Groom has to buy saree/gold/clothes for bride for both engagement and marriage.
Buy clothes for inlaws and gold ring for mappilai tholen.

This is for Non Brahmin/Non dowry type of Tamilian/Malayali/Telegu.

Some Non Brahmins like Gounders/Chettiars..still have dowry system like in India.
Its mainly the bussiness community type of tamilians who still practise Dowry system.
Some Non Brahmin Telegus also have dowry system.

Sri Lankan tamilians practise Dowry system till now and are very rigid about it too.

Tamilian Brahmin marriage system here I have no idea.
May you can ask fellow Malaysian Citizen Ms Amala to elaborate on it.(She is Iyer Ponnu)

renu
 

Nara

Well-known member
...Even though it is the male who decides the gender of the offspring but women in India or even in Malaysia are blamed when they give birth to female child.

Dear Renu, long time ago it happened in England as well with tragic consequences. Henry the 8th blamed Ann Boleyn for not producing a male child and ultimately lost her head, literally.

Dear DD, it still happening in India too.

It is funny that Dr. R. is connecting y-chromosome to caste! I don't know why people make these kinds of claims without a shred of evidence or logic. Many of these speculations do not even have vague connections such as குருவி உட்க்கார பனம்பழம் விழுந்த்த்து.

Our esteemed member HH provided several links on research studies that show genetic commonality among all of us, including Athivasees. Connecting caste to genes is a perilous thing, motivated individuals will use it to justify their nefarious designs.
 

DURGADASAN

Active member
Dear Nara

I know that the situation is prevalent in India and I thought that the situation is worse only in India (that too I thought just as the parents did not have the facility to provide dowry mainly here). Iam totally unaware till today that this same situation is also visible in other countries too. Its really a shame over human society to reject girl children. Ofcourse this very girl is needed for the man to produce his own offspring. Its very funny thinking of their logicless strands, at the sametime very pathetic on hearing existing situation...

Pranams
 

nachi naga

Well-known member
re

Wonder why then doctors are consistently asking about parents history,genes theory,dna complex radicals..for diagonising a patient?How blood groups get formed?

nachi naga.
 

DURGADASAN

Active member
Dear Nachi ji

Doctors are asking for this to prevent child from disorders. When an Rh+ and Rh- copule have first child, there wont be any problem at all. At the sametime when the mother expects her second child, the antibodies created against the Rh+ or Rh- (against father's) will ultimately make the child a defective piece or even sometime lethal itself.

More info under this link
http://kidshealth.org/parent/pregnancy_newborn/pregnancy/rh.html

Pranams
 
OP
OP
A

ArulPillai

Member
Thank you, Nara, for the interesting quotes. I will pass them along to my relatives.

ArilJi this is very interesting. I never knew there were tamil people in Pakistan (im assuming Karachiite as in Karachi Pakistan)

The only other Tamils I knew here were from my own family. The thoroughbreds (my Ammachee and others of her generation) have now left the country or this life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Thank you for visiting TamilBrahmins.com

You seem to have an Ad Blocker on.

We depend on advertising to keep our content free for you. Please consider whitelisting us in your ad blocker so that we can continue to provide the content you have come here to enjoy.

Alternatively, consider upgrading your account to enjoy an ad-free experience along with numerous other benefits. To upgrade your account, please visit the account upgrades page

You can also donate financially if you can. Please Click Here on how you can do that.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks