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AUM and Science

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I did edit my post because I had to do a lot of reading and writing
Here are a few of my view points
1. You talk about " a) There is always a hidden message behind every statement b) understand the hidden message of the Gita
Please tell why hide the message? What is need to hide something in Geetha What is logic in these, now science does not have any hidden messages
2. "Science is just explanation of a phenomenon" No it is not only that, science is a whole process, if you had read my earlier post you might see my point
3. Let me tell something about my idea of Geetha I do not subscribe to the belief that it came from God It is the work of a gifted person
Please refer to my earlier post on Geetha
a.http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philosophy-scriptures/2098-god-why-19.html#post23001
b. http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philosophy-scriptures/2098-god-why-19.html#post22998 ( this is a post you sped time reading I took a lot of time in research to write it)
c. Please read this too http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philosophy-scriptures/2098-god-why-20.html#post23004
The above posts will let you know about my views on Geetha
Geetha is not very logical Let me remind you that The statements in geetha are not even exactly clear ( like you yourself have said hidden messages) That itself defies logic! Logic involves reasoning, questioning and critical thinking
You say "We never ask her a scientific evidence for that" that is because you dont have the need to ask
Are you telling that it is forbidden to ask that question? If you have a doubt you have to ask the question, of course DNA can get you the answer! So here your analogy is not perfect in fact you put that statment to "explain Faith"
let me tell you are talking here about belief not faith you believe that your mothers statement is true and hence you build your faith on her
so when have doubt in mind you don't believe and hence there is no faith
you say "Sanathana Dharma is actually very scientific"
If you have read my earlier post you must understand thatNo religion can be scientific because science had boundaries ie demarcation If a religion is scientific it will cease to be a religion it will become scienceThe very reason you say that"Sanathana Dharma is actually very scientific" is you want credibility for your set of beliefs.
Religion demands faith! even Sanathana Dharma does I cannot be a practicing Sanathana Dharma if I dont have faith in it, but science is a totally a different issue

Dear Arun,
In this world almost everything is hidden.Air is hidden from our sight but we can feel it.
Even our thoughts are hidden from another.
Even when a patient comes to me, his disease is hidden from me.
I have to deduce from the clues i am given and come to a conclusion.
Take a look at blood. Merely by looking one sees nothing besides it being a red colored liquid.
Only by subjecting it to various test and analysis we can find out the hidden story woven called the Blood Picture.

Same with Religion/God.Hidden messages are for us to decode.In the process of decoding one learns and retains knowledge.
If we are meant to be spoonfed we would not have been gifted with our intellect.

In this world everything is linked around Faith.
We have faith in ourselves therefore we live.
We have faith that we can and therefore we engage in a task.
Believeing in science itself shows Faith.
Science is not anti God and neither is Religion anti science.
I just call Religion the Science of God Realization.
 
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You have quoted Einstein very good quotes!
Let me tell you some more quotes of Einstein
1.I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
2.I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)
I actually I should not have quoted AE here ( I just responded to stimulus) I just don't know why you quoted him here ( it is sort of out of context) are trying to infuse a sense of authority here by quoting AE or is to question my questioning by quoting someone who is considered a great scientist?

Dear Arun,

I had quoted it because I knew you would look for other qoutes too.
I had read all of the others too.
I just wanted to inject humour here.
 
Dear Arun,
In this world almost everything is hidden. Air is hidden from our sight but we can feel it.
There is a difference between “Hidden” and “I cannot see it”
Nothing is hidden it is just because you mind wants it to be hidden that you say it is Hidden
In your own words “Air is hidden from our sight” actually Air is composed of materials that interact with light in such a way that our optic perception system does not detect it. Our optic perception and sound perception is centred on a limited range of wavelengths that our senses can detect and in turn our brain can perceive. In your own words it is hidden only from your sight but not hidden from your "feel"
Even our thoughts are hidden from another.
Thoughts are not inherently hidden it is intentionally not exposed! In short one hides thought by ones own will If I decide not to hide it is no more hidden

Even when a patient comes to me, his disease is hidden from me.
The disease is not hidden from you by a design and what’s more it is dependant on the disease – for example if the patient has cut on his skin is plainly visible. It is the question of what you are searching for since you are Doc I think you know that “medical condition or disease identified by its signs, symptoms” which is exactly what you are saying here “I have to deduce from the clues i am given and come to a conclusion “ you are using your power of reasoning here.
Take a look a blood. Merely by looking one sees nothing besides it being a red colour liquid.
Only by subjecting it to various test and analysis we can find out the hidden story woven called the Blood Picture
.
That is exactly what I am trying to say It is not actually hidden it is just that you cannot see it without aid

Same with Religion/God. Hidden messages are for us to decode. In the process of decoding one learns and retains knowledge.
It is not the same here as it is in the above examples First of all why hide good message? Does it mean that God wants only a particular set of people who can decode the message to understand it? Is intellect a prerequisite for understanding religion?
There is another difference here – even going by your examples - air, patient, blood etc., these did not hide it intentionally but according to you God hid his messages intentionally He should not have done that if he intended Mankind as a whole to understand his message what is the agenda here?
In this world everything is linked around Faith.
We have faith in ourselves therefore we live. .
Do you mean if we don’t have faith in ourselves we will not live? Is faith a prerequisite for life?
We have faith that we can and therefore we engage in a task. .
We can do a task with ability to do the task we need not necessarily have faith do perform as task
Believeing in science itself shows Faith. .
It is quite the opposite Science does not ask you to believe in it and show faith it in fact asks you question it and go about proving or disproving it
Science is not anti God and neither is Religion anti science.
I just call Religion the Science of God Realization.
Science is a credible system and Religion is dogmatic as I said you want to attach credibility to dogma by saying “Religion the Science of God Realization”
 
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Dear Arun,
Even though I am actually running a temperature and having a bad sorethroat I am still sitting in my clinic and answering your questions in betweEn seeing patients as I find all your questions interesting

God did not hide anything from us whether God or Bad.
All appears Hidden from us owing to the effect of Maaya.
Once the curtain of Maaya has been lifted nothing is and ever was ever hidden.

Anyone can reach this state and not neccesarily those who are so called Intelligent only.
Intelligence is subjective.
Some might find you intelligent but many might find me not intelligent because I am preaching non "scientific" non evidence based points here.
I am actually telling you the truth when I say this.
Many have viewed me like this in my life so far.

Now coming to your questions.

Faith is also a believe in one self.
Faith in ourselves make us look forward to tommorow.
Those who do not have faith in themselves many a times take their own lifes too, I have seen.

Science is credible. That I agree but even then subjective to time, place, person.
Some scientific fact could be disproved at a later date.
Many medications have been withdrawn from use after hazadarous side effects were noted later.
What is correct today might be wrong tommorow and what is wrong today might be correct tommorow.
Its the discriminative intellect which lets us know right from wrong through observation.

The same principles apply in Religion too.
Thats all. Its not too hard to understand Religion.
 
Dear Arun,

This is for you.I looked up the net for you.Its simple to understand.
In fact earlier i had tried to attach a word document on action potential with diagrams/neurons etc but I dont know why it failed to get attached.
This is just a very simple explanation from the net.
Dear Arun, Dont stay away.I did not mean to say that.You were here since 2008 much earlier to me and you have every right to state your comments.
No hard feelings please.
please read this.If I have more I will post later.

What Is an Action Potential?

By Kendra Van Wagner, About.com Guide

See More About:

Definition: An action potential is part of the process that occurs during the firing of a neuron. During the action potential, part of the neural membrane opens to allow positively charged ions inside the cell and negatively charged ions out. This process causes a rapid increase in the positive charge of the nerve fiber. When the charge reaches +40 mv, the impulse is propagated down the nerve fiber. This electrical impulse is carried down the nerve through a series of action potentials.
Actually I did not seek for the information on action potential and brain
I need some reference here I am interested in this!
1. " [FONT=&quot]thought process elicits electrical response in the body [/FONT]
2. [FONT=&quot]thought causes electrical response(medically proven).[/FONT]
Can you please give me the reference of a research or review on this area
 
Dear Arun,
Even though I am actually running a temperature and having a bad sorethroat I am still sitting in my clinic and answering your questions in betweEn seeing patients as I find all your questions interesting .
Get well soon!


God did not hide anything from us whether God or Bad.
All appears Hidden from us owing to the effect of Maaya.
Once the curtain of Maaya has been lifted nothing is and ever was ever hidden.
Earlier you talked about hidden messages now you talk of Maaya. Unfortunately I must admit that I cannot understand Maaya in my frame of reference.

Anyone can reach this state and not neccesarily those who are so called Intelligent only.
Intelligence is subjective.
Some might find you intelligent but many might find me not intelligent because I am preaching non "scientific" non evidence based points here.
I am actually telling you the truth when I say this.
Many have viewed me like this in my life so far. .
Which means you know the truth?
you say “Some might find you intelligent but many might find me not intelligent because I am preaching non "scientific" non evidence based points here.”
That is very personal, I nor anyone will or should judge our respective calibres by our posts or our adherence to faith or free thought at least I will not do that!

Faith is also a believe in one self.
Faith in ourselves make us look forward to tommorow.
Those who do not have faith in themselves many a times take their own lifes too, I have seen. .
You have not answered my question “ is faith a prerequisite for life?

Science is credible. That I agree but even then subjective to time, place, person.
Some scientific fact could be disproved at a later date.
Many medications have been withdrawn from use after hazadarous side effects were noted later.
What is correct today might be wrong tommorow and what is wrong today might be correct tommorow.
Its the discriminative intellect which lets us know right from wrong through observation. .
You are spot on correct here and this particular property of science is what makes it develop and flourish and adds to its credibility

The same principles apply in Religion too.
Thats all. Its not too hard to understand Religion.
If the same principles apply to religion - You mean I can put it this way by rephrasing your statement
Religion is credible. That I agree but even then subjective to time, place, person.
Some religious facts could be disproved at a later date.
Many religious doctrines have been withdrawn from use after hazardous side effects were noted later.
What is correct in religion today might be wrong tomorrow and what is wrong today might be correct tommorow.
Its the discriminative intellect which lets us know right from wrong through observation.
Would you agree with the above statement

If the same principles of science is applied to religion the above statement is what we get!
 
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dear Arun,
when I was telling about the Truth I did not mean that I was telling you the Gospel Truth.
I was telling you that many a times I have been called illogical,non evidence based minded and less intelligent among my scientific minded friends.I meant i was telling the truth about this.

anyway read this article about thought and brain response.


John Eccles on Mind and Brain

By David Pratt

According to the prevailing scientific theory of the mind -- known as "identity theory" -- mental states are identical with physicochemical states of the brain. The brain is regarded as a supercomplex computer in which material processes in the cerebral cortex somehow generate thoughts and feelings. A supporter of this materialistic theory, Daniel C. Dennett, says that our brains contain
a cobbled-together collection of specialist brain circuits, which . . . conspire together to produce a . . . more or less well-designed virtual machine . . . By yoking these independently evolved specialist organs together in common cause, and thereby giving their union vastly enhanced powers, this virtual machine, this software of the brain, performs a sort of internal political miracle: It creates a virtual captainof the crew . . . --Consciousness Explained ,1991, p. 2 28​
This "virtual captain" is what we normally regard as our "self," but according to Dennett it is really just an illusion produced by the global action of our brain circuits!
Distinguished neuroscientist and Nobel Prize winner Sir John Eccles rejects this theory, saying that it never goes beyond vague generalities; materialists believe that the problems will be resolved when we have a more complete scientific understanding of the brain, perhaps in hundreds of years, a belief which Eccles ironically terms "promissory materialism." Eccles feels that this "impoverished and empty" theory fails to account for "the wonder and mystery of the human self with its spiritual values, with its creativity, and with its uniqueness for each of us." (How the Self Controls Its Brain, pp. 33, 176.) He criticizes identity theory for allowing no real scope for human freedom. Extensive experimental studies have shown that mental acts of attention and intention activate appropriate regions of the cerebral cortex. An intention to move, for example, initiates the firing of a set of neurons of the supplementary motor area about 200 Milli-seconds before the intended movement takes place. If the mind isthe brain, this would mean either that one part of the brain activates an other part, which then activates another part, etc., or that a particular region of the brain is activated spontaneously, without any cause, and it is hard to see how either alternative would provide a basis for free will.
Over the course of several decades, partly in collaboration with the philosopher of science Sir Karl Popper, Eccles has developed an alternative theory of the mind, known as dualist-interactionism. His basic philosophical starting point is one with which theosophists can wholeheartedly agree:
I maintain that the human mystery is incredibly demeaned by scientific reductionism, with its claim in promissory materialism to account eventually for all of the spiritual world in terms of patterns of neuronal activity. This belief must be classed as a superstition. . . . we have to recognize that we are spiritual beings with souls existing in a spiritual world as well as material beings with bodies and brains existing in a material world. --Evolution of the Brain, Creation of the Self, p. 241​
According to Eccles, we have a nonmaterial mind or self which acts upon, and is influenced by, our material brains; there is a mental world in addition to the physical world, and the two interact. However, Eccles denies that the mind is a type of nonphysical substance (as it is in Cartesian dualism), and says that it merely belongs to a different world. (How the Self Controls Its Brain, p. 38.) But unless our mind (and the world in which it exists) is pure nothingness -- in which case it would not exist -- it must be composed of finer grades of energy-substance. Indeed, our inner constitution may comprise several nonphysical levels. Biologist Rupert Sheldrake, for instance, proposes that our physical bodies are organized by morphogenetic fields, our habits by behavioral morphic fields, and our thoughts and ideas by mental morphic fields. He suggests that our conscious self may be a higher level of our being which interacts with the lower fields and, through them with the physical brain and body. Theosophy adds to this list spiritual and divine levels, and describes all the different "layers" of our constitution as different phases of consciousness-substance.
Opponents of Eccles' view argue that mind-brain interaction would infringe the law of the conservation of energy. In his latest book, How the Self Controls Its Brain,Eccles, with the help of quantum physicist Friedrich Beck, shows that mind-brain action can be explained without violating the conservation of energy if account is taken of quantum physics and the latest discoveries concerning the microstructure of the neocortex. Eccles calls the fundamental neural units of the cerebral cortex dendrons,and proposes that each of the 40 million dendrons is linked with a mental unit, or psychon, representing a unitary conscious experience. In willed actions and thought, psychons act on dendrons and momentarily increase the probability of the firing of selected neurons, while in perception the reverse process takes place. Interaction among psychons themselves could explain the unity of our perceptions and of the inner world of our mind.
But Eccles' acceptance of the standard interpretation of the conservation of energy actually limits his theory. According to the first law of thermodynamics, the total energy of a closed system (i.e., one which does not exchange matter or energy with its environment) remains constant. Since materialists believe that the physical world is all that exists and therefore forms a closed system, they argue that the quantity of matter-energy within it must remain absolutely the same. According to theosophy, on the other hand, there is a constant circulation of energy-substances through the various planes or spheres of reality, none of which forms a closed system, and the conservation of matter-energy applies only to infinite nature as a whole. Orthodox quantum physics does in fact recognize that energy can be borrowed from the "quantum vacuum" provided it is paid back after a fraction of a second. Furthermore, over the past hundred years or so, a number of physicists, engineers, and inventors, beginning with Michael Faraday and Nicola Tesla, have built electromagnetic "free energy" devices that seem to produce more energy than required to run them, by apparently tapping on a larger scale the "zero-point energy of the vacuum" (or "energy of hyperdimensional space," as some scientists call it) -- that is, nonphysical, etheric energy. (See R. C. Hoagland, The Monuments of Mars, pp. 370-4.) Some scientists believe that "cold fusion" has a similar explanation. (See H. Fox, Cold Fusion Impact in the Enhanced Energy Age, ch. 11.)
Eccles says that the interaction between brain and mind "can be conceived as a flow of information, not of energy." (How the Self Controls its Brain, p. 9.) But information must surely be carried by some form of matter-energy, and if the mind can alter the probability of neural events, it is more likely that it does so by means of subtler, etheric types of force or energy, acting at the quantum or subquantum level. Eccles says that his theory can account for ordinary voluntary actions, but that "more direct actions of the will are precluded by the conservation laws." (Ibid., p. 163.) This is significant, for even if there is no measurable violation of energy conservation in ordinary mental phenomena, this may not be the case with certain paranormal phenomena, especially psychokinesis and materializations. Eccles, however, does not take paranormal phenomena seriously. (Evolution of the Brain, p. 242.)
Eccles is in basic agreement with the neo-Darwinian theory that evolution is driven by random genetic mutations followed by the weeding out of unfavorable variations by natural selection, but he also believes that "there is a Divine Providence operating over and above the materialist happenings of biological evolution." (Ibid., p. 239.) He accepts that mammals (such as dogs, cats, horses, and monkeys) and possibly birds are conscious beings, which experience feelings and pain, but denies conscious experiences to invertebrates and lower vertebrates such as fish and even amphibians and reptiles which, he says, have instinctual and learned responses, but no awareness or sensation. He maintains that the mental (or psychon) world, and therefore conscious experiences, came into existence with the development of the complex neocortex of the mammalian brain, and that the neocortex evolved by natural selection because it enabled the increased complexity of sensory inputs to be integrated, and therefore offered survival advantages. Then,
with hominid evolution there eventually came higher levels of conscious experiences, and ultimately in Homo sapiens sapiens -- self-consciousness -- which is the unique life-long experience of each human SELF, and which we must regard as a miracle beyond Darwinian evolution. -- How the Self Controls Its Brain, p. 139.​
In theosophy, rather than the physical world giving rise to the mental world, lower realms are said to unfold from higher, more spiritual realms through a process of emanation, differentiation, and concretion, and all the various planes, and the classes of entities composing and inhabiting them, are manifestations of consciousness -- the ultimate reality. In the words of H. P. Blavatsky:
Nature taken in its abstract sense, cannot be "unconscious," as it is the emanation from, and thus an aspect (on the manifested plane) of the ABSOLUTE consciousness. Where is that daring man who would presume to deny to vegetation and even to minerals a consciousness of their own. All he can say is, that this consciousness is beyond his comprehension. --The Secret Doctrine 1:277n​
Thus not only are all animals conscious; plants too have a primitive form of sentient, conscious existence, as various researchers have established. (See "Our Intelligent Companions, the Plants," John Van Mater, Jr., SUNRISE, April/May 1987.) As for the mineral kingdom, "panpsychists" such as B. Rensch and C. Birch believe that all physical matter, including atoms and subatomic particles, possesses a protoconsciousness. Eccles rejects panpsychism on the grounds that modern physics does not admit memory or identity for elementary particles. However, physicist David Bohm believed not only that all forms of matter were alive and conscious to some extent, but also that, at deeper levels, every particle of a particular species is distinguishable and unique, rather than being completely identical as is assumed in orthodox physics. (Causality and Chance in Modern Physics, p. 157; Science, Order & Creativity(with F. D. Peat), pp. 210-11.) Furthermore, newly synthesized chemical compounds have been found to crystallize more readily all over the world the more often they are made -- implying the existence of some sort of memory. (See Rupert Sheldrake, The Presence of the Past, p. 131.)
A further weakness in Eccles' approach is his attachment to the ape-ancestry theory. The hominid family includes not only our own species, Homo sapiens, but also more primitive (now extinct) human forms. The oldest generally accepted hominid genus is Australopithecus, which appeared in southern Africa about 4½ million years ago in the early Pliocene. Some researchers have tried to trace a progressive line of evolutionary ascent from Australopithecus through Homo habilis and Homo erectus to modern humans, but such a simplistic interpretation of the fossil record is hotly contested, even among Darwinists. The origin of the hominid family itself is even more problematic. The prevailing theory is that humans and the modern anthropoid apes had a common ancestor, thought to be closely related to the extinct Miocene apes known as the dryopithecines. But as the Encylopaedia Britannica states:
Exactly when the Hominidae, as a separate and independent line of evolution, became segregated from the anthropoid-ape family (Pongidae) is not certainly known; indeed, it is still the most serious gap in the fossil record of the Hominidae. (15th ed. 18:933.)​
Transitional forms leading from ancestral apes to hominids (distinguished, for example, by an erect posture and bipedal locomotion) have not been discovered, and are found only in the fanciful illustrations that decorate popular science publications. Furthermore, there is abundant evidence -- in the form of stone tools, incised bones, and skeletal remains -- that human beings of the modern type existed in the Pliocene, the Miocene, and even in early Tertiary times, millions of years beforeour supposed apelike ancestors are thought to have appeared! Most of this evidence was discovered by reputable scientists in the 19th and early 20th centuries, before the modern truncated time scale of human evolution was established, None of this evidence is reported in modern textbooks, but has been buried and forgotten. (See Michael A. Cremo and Richard L. Thompson, Forbidden Archeology(1993), 952 pages; abridged version, The Hidden History of the Human Race (1994); cf. The Secret Doctrine, 2:10, 675, 678, 686, 714n, 740.)
A comparison of the skeletal and muscular features of living apes and humans shows that apes have developed a more complex and specialized structure, while humans have preserved a primitive mammalian simplicity, with only the cerebrospinal system, necessary for the manifestation of self-conscious intelligence, being highly developed. If apes and humans descended from a common ancestor, that ancestor must have been simpler in anatomical structure than modern apes. Significantly, as we go back in time, fossil apes are found with simpler, more hominid-like features (e.g., in teeth, jaw, and skull), while hominids show no convergence towards the apes. So unless the hypothetical ancestral apes were as simple in structure as modern humans, which no Darwinist would claim, there must have been a reversion from specialized to simpler anatomical features after the separation of the hominid line, and science knows of no comparable cases where this has occurred.
The Finnish anthropologist Dr. Björn Kurtén has proposed an alternative interpretation of the fossil record, which turns orthodox Darwinism on its head. He states: "the most logical answer suggested by the fossil evidence is this: hominids are not descended from apes, but apes may be descended from hominids." (Not from the Apes[1972], p. 42.) This is consistent with the theosophical teaching that apes arose in the Miocene from interbreeding between less progressed human (Atlantean) stocks and an extinct animal stock, whose ancestors were the product of similar interbreeding at a much earlier period. As for the more primitive hominid fossils that have been discovered, rather than being our direct ancestors, they may have existed alongside advanced civilizations (some of them on now submerged islands and continents), just as civilized and primitive peoples co-exist today.
Eccles at least recognizes that Darwinian evolution cannot account for our self-conscious mind:
Since materialist solutions fail to account for our experienced uniqueness, I am constrained to attribute the uniqueness of the Self or Soul to a supernatural spiritual creation. To give the explanation in theological terms: each Soul is a new Divine creation which is implanted into the growing foetus at some time between conception and birth. --Evolution of the Brain, p. 237​
Theosophy, too, assigns human beings a spiritual ancestry, but rejects the belief that they were created by a supernatural, extracosmic, an thropomorphic God. If nature is infinite, divinity cannot be outside nature but must be coeval with it and pervade every atom of life. At the heart of every entity is a spiritual monad -- a deathless spark of divinity, or center of life-consciousness -- which imbodies in an endless variety of forms in an endless variety of worlds in the course of its eternal evolutionary development. The earth is merely the latest station on the evolutionary journey of our spiritual monads. The first protohuman forms on earth were huge, ethereal, nonself-conscious beings which slowly materialized, declined in size, and assumed the present human shape. When these physical forms had attained the necessary degree of complexity, the gradual awakening and unfoldment of our latent intellectual and spiritual powers could begin. (See G. de Purucker, Man in Evolution, ch. 19, "Lost Pages of Evolutionary History"; The Esoteric Tradition, ch. 10, "Esoteric Teachings on the Evolution of Human and Animal Beings.")
As for what happens after death, Eccles says:
we can regard the death of the body and brain as dissolution of our dualist existence. Hopefully, the liberated soul will find another future of even deeper meaning and more entrancing experiences, perhaps in some renewed embodied existence . . . in accord with traditional Christian teaching. --Evolution of the Brain, p. 242​
Given his belief that a new human soul is created for every newborn child, Eccles is probably not referring here to reincarnation on earth. But if our souls are to learn from the past and evolve, it would seem logical that they must not only reap whatthey have sown (in accordance with the law of karma), but must also reap wherethey have sown, and must continue to incarnate on earth until they have learned all the lessons the earth can teach.
Thus, although Eccles recognizes that the mind is relatively independent of the brain and works through it rather than being identical with it, his views still remain limited by several materialistic and theological dogmas. Nevertheless, his attempt to reach out beyond scientific materialism and develop a more spiritual vision is refreshing. Towards the end of his latest book, he writes:
I here express my efforts to understand with deep humility a self, myself, as an experiencing being. I offer it in the hope that we human selves may discover a transforming faith in the meaning and significance of this wonderful adventure that each of us is given on this salubrious Earth of ours, each with our wonderful brain, which is ours to control and use for our memory and enjoyment and creativity and with love for other human selves. --How the Self Controls Its Brain, pp. 180-1​
(Reprinted from Sunrise magazine, June/July 1995. Copyright © 1995 by Theosophical University Press)


Science Menu
 
Niether did I say that you are telling me the Gospel Truth!
Anyway your statement implies that there are many truths so now which truth did you mean?
Thanks for the article
But what I was looking for in research article or a review article on the area of thought and brain. I bet as a Doc you know what is a research or review article. The above is a theosophical paper published in a non peer reviewed popular magazine. In any case it does say a lot of "Mind" and not very much about "thought"
PS - please do watch out when you copy and paste large portions from copyrighted material I bet the forum has legal copyright bindings.
 
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Dear Renu, I know your stand and I do respect your right to have that stand. At the same time, please permit me to insert a few observations on the article you have quoted.

Thank you Renu.

BTW, in line with Arun's comment on copyright, you may want to consider just proving a link to the article, just a suggestion -- Cheers!

John Eccles on Mind and Brain
By David Pratt

generate thoughts and feelings. A supporter of this materialistic theory, Daniel C. Dennett, says that our brains contain
Even though Indians take pride in the Vedic philosophical thought, unfortunately, they are, in the most part, unable to climb out of the mystical traditions. Today, the most exciting philosophical inquiry is taking place only in the west and Dennett is in the vanguard of this inquiry.

It seems to me that in India philosophical thought and religious thought get conflated. Perhaps due to this, for them, the nature of consciousness is a settled matter. All we have to do is just reinvent the same wheel within the parameters established 1000 (Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhwa) or 5000 years ago (Vyasa).

Whether he is right or wrong, Dennett is exploring new ways of understanding consciousness. His theories are not constrained by any religious dogma, but fashioned based on modern scientific findings from a broad spectrum of fields ranging from molecular biology, neurology, human psychology, etc.

Whatever one may say, I am confident he will be guided by scientific facts, not some worn out dogma.


alternative theory of the mind, known as dualist-interactionism. His basic philosophical starting point is one with which theosophists can wholeheartedly agree:
I maintain that the human mystery is incredibly demeaned by scientific reductionism, with its claim in promissory materialism to account eventually for all of the spiritual world in terms of patterns of neuronal activity. This belief must be classed as a superstition. . . . we have to recognize that we are spiritual beings with souls existing in a spiritual world as well as material beings with bodies and brains existing in a material world. --Evolution of the Brain, Creation of the Self, p. 241​
This is really telling, isn't. For this guy, Dennet and others not wanting to assume anything more than what can be observed is "superstition". But, in the very next sentence he says we "have to recognize" we have a soul, as if that is a self-evident fact.

It looks like for theosophists what is important is, science must agree with their beliefs, or else, science is no good.


- that is, nonphysical, etheric energy. (See R. C. Hoagland, The Monuments of Mars, pp. 370-4.)
R.C. Hoagland, seriously??? This guy thinks one of the moons of Saturn is a spacecraft built by aliens. If I am not mistaken he is a part of the ID crowd as well. These antecedents must make us weary of what he says as science.


(See Michael A. Cremo and Richard L. Thompson, Forbidden Archeology(1993), 952 pages; abridged version, The Hidden History of the Human Race (1994); cf. The Secret Doctrine, 2:10, 675, 678, 686, 714n, 740.)
Again we have a couple of people motivated by religion rather than science.

The most persuasive evidence for evolution comes from biology. Even if we have absolutely no fossil evidence, scientists still have overwhelming evidence in support of evolution. The abundance of fossil evidence is only the icing.

Not one of these tons and tons fossil evidence is anachronistic. Even one such fossil can disprove evolution, but not a single one. But that is not all. We continue to find new and new fossil evidence exactly as evolution predicts. So, denying evolution is a strange way to claim to be scientific.
 
An excellent dialogue between Dr Renuka Kartikayan and Sri Arun Shankar, with an occasional spicing by Sri RVR.

1. Let me at the outset assure that I welcome constructive criticism and suggestions. Otherwise, what are the fora for?. But, we should avoid frivolous observations and personal insults. ( Let me hasten to add that nothing of this nature has happened so far in this thread.)

2. Sri Arun Shankar has exhaustively commented on Science and Religion and also copiously quoted from my book.
(a) While quoting from my book, that “science has its own dictum that a fact is not a fact until it has been repeatedly tried and failed to disprove it, over a period of time”, he forgot to quote from the next para which reads as follows, “ We thus pass through cycles of statements of what is conceived as truth, then being questioned by so called rationalists, resulting in acceptance or modification of what was stated, then a period of renaissance and a final realization that both science and religion state and explain the same truth and the difference, if any, between the two are only apparent and not real, and that they are indivisible one, the advaitham”.
(b) I would again request him to read through the remaining paragraphs of page 8 of my book “three minutes please”. In science, we have first a hypothesis, then with more facts convert this to a theorem and then when finally proved, it becomes a law. So too in meta physics.

© Mr Arun Shankar has opined that there are no discussions in religion and that it is all dogma. The word dogma seems to have evolved from a Greek word meaning “ to seem” and to have been revealed. Perhaps Sri Arun Shankar is restricting his observation only to the Samhita part of the Vedas which are supposed to have been revealed to great sages and are therefore accepted as facts. But, later on, when more clarifications were required, brahmanas, aranyakas and Upanishads, evolved.
(d) Every statement was discussed in great sadas attended by male and female sages, nastikas and rationalists and only after the acceptance by the peer group the statement is accepted as truth and then followed. Brihadaranyaka Upanishad is replete with such examples.
(e) I have dealt with in the appendix on Gayatri, about the Savitri Mantra, the Vyahriti Mantras, the evolution of Aum from them, the various Rishis who have been responsible for them and how it has been discussed in detail at least in three different Upanishads. Aum has transcended from Mantra to Yoga Shastra and then to Occult. Therefore, let us not belittle the Pranava Mantra as “ trying to grandeuse the word to create an illusion”. Such a statement is unfair and far from truth.
4. Sri Arun Shankar Says that one of the pre-requisites of religion is that one should not ask many questions. He also adds, that Bhagavadgita is not the best example of questions and answers.

Yudhistra starts Vishnu Sahasranamam with 6 questions to Bhishma in the order he thought fit. But, Bhishma replied them in an entirely different order that he thought as necessary and that makes Vishnusahasranam as a revealed document.
Similarly, in Bhagavadgita, Krishna raises Arjuna from a lowly mortal level by teaching him Karma Yoga, slowly to a higher and higher pedestal. Yes, there are different formats of truth in each one of these revelations. When Krishna himself was not too sure of his answers, he used to address Arjuna as “Partha” which also means “ a lump of clay”, perhaps partly attributing this adjective to himself also. For eg: we do not teach an elementary school student Einstein’s theory of Relativity and we teach a high school student that atoms are indestructible. Later on he is told, that atoms comprise of Electron, Proton and Neutron and a nucleus and it is much later that he understands Quantum physics, Particle Physics and the String Theory. At every stage, the student is taught and understands the fact necessary for him at that stage and when he reaches the higher level of a plasma physicist, CERN expert, Matt Ridley and Dr V S Ramachandran, he soberly concludes “ it seems somehow disconcerting to be told that your life, all your hopes triumphs and aspirations simply arise from the activities of neurons in your brain. But far from humiliating, this idea is ennobling. Cosmology, evolution and the brain science are all telling us that we have no privileged position in the universe and that our sense of having a private non-material soul watching the world is really an illusion. Once, you realize that, far from being a spectator, you are in fact part of the eternal ebb and flow of events in the cosmos, the realization is very liberating.” (Para 5.2.9 of Page 44 of my book)
5. There have been scientists both before and after Einstein who have seen and acknowledged that there is something beyond science as a healing factor. I am attaching to this an internet download on the talk of Vedas in India by private mail to Dr Renuka Kartikeyan where more details are available. Either she can post it in this thread or if I am provided the e-mail id of Sri Arun Shankar and Sri RVR, I can send copies directly to them.
6. Since, this has already become too long, I will reply to the other questions in my next post.
Regards,

Ramanathan

 
Sri Arun Shankar and Dr. Renu Kartikayan;
This is in continuation of my yesterday's posting.

Yes;Of every200 atoms in our body, 126 are Hydrogen,51 are Oxygen and though only 19, yet vital, are Carbon.Of the remaininmg 4, 3are Nitrogen and all the other elements constitute only one atom.I have taken this statement from " A short history of nearly everything" by Bill Bryson,(2003), P.309. He has , in turn, quoted this from Snyder," The extraordinary chemistry of ordinary things" P.24.
I have taken the scriptural meaning of A U M (P17&18 of my book) after Late Mukkur Sri. Lakshmi Narasimhachariar and tried to interpolate the Scientific significance in paras 3.1 to 3.4 of P.21 of the book.

a. I think all agree on the primordial role of hydrogen in the Big Bang theory and, therefore,the role of Hydrogen as A may be taken as settled
.
b. The Ukaara may represent Mind principle or Goddess Mahala
kshmi, but what is important is its close association with Energy and a body to sustain. Since oxygen cannot burn by itself, but still nothing on earth can burn without oxygen, U can as well be the motivating force representing oxygen.

c. The tricky animal carbon latches itself on many other atoms forming proteins, amino acids, DNA, etc. This will therefore explain the sustenance of Jeev Atma in the significance of Makaaram. Thus, besides the 24 prakriti tatvas, the jeev atma is the 25th Tatva. It cannot be just a coincidence that the Makaaram of Aum (Jeev Atma) is the 25th letter amongst the consonants in Sanskrit.
I have proposed obeisance toHydrogen in the Universe, Oxygen in the Earth and Carbon in the life and thus, there is no contradiction.. As I have repeatedly mentioned in the text, this is not a deterministic model but only an emperical assumption.

Turiya and Plasma
Both are in the 4th state only. We call, for e.g. Turiya Awastha.

The problem came in when Turiya Avatha was extended to transcendental meditation, yoga nidra and various other occult sciences, as had happened to many other vedic discoveries. While, the highest form of search for knowledge gets drawn to more mundane and material things, the wood is lost and we start searching for the trees. I understand that there are 10527 archives related to mysticism of Turiya including in Sufism. I am downloading the related internet connection in a private mail to Dr Renuka.

Similarly, Plasma in the earliest scriptural concepts was required as a medium because the sound of Pranavam cannot travel in vaccum. This concept developed to a process known as panchikaranam to explain the evolution of different Tanmatras and the concept of Prakrititatvas. Adishankara has written a Panchikaranam and this has been further elaborated by him in four slokas 72 to 75 in Vivekachoodamani. A beautiful brief Bashyam has been written on this by Swami Chinmayananda (Talks on Shankaras Vivekachoodamani, Chinmaya Trust Publication). This is a very subtle and vast subject. I can at this stage only admire this concept but have understood very little of this. I believe that there is great scope for the future, younger, ignited minds to link up Panchikaranam, Plasma and String Theory and when it happens, we may perhaps have proof to state that Turiya and Plasma are indeed the same.
I am also posting an article downloaded on Plasma Physics to Dr Renuka. Both these downloads, if considered appropriate can be posted as attachments to the thread we are discussing.If E mail addresses of Sri Arun shankar and Sri RVR are made available to me , I can send them also directly.

Regards,

Ramanathan
 
Dear all,

a good diagramatic explanation of the process of Panchikarana(Grossification) is given well in tattva- Bodhah of Adi Shankaracharya.Commentary by Swami Tejomayanada of Chinmaya Mission.
 
Dear Renu, I know your stand and I do respect your right to have that stand. At the same time, please permit me to insert a few observations on the article you have quoted.

Thank you Renu.

BTW, in line with Arun's comment on copyright, you may want to consider just proving a link to the article, just a suggestion -- Cheers!

Even though Indians take pride in the Vedic philosophical thought, unfortunately, they are, in the most part, unable to climb out of the mystical traditions. Today, the most exciting philosophical inquiry is taking place only in the west and Dennett is in the vanguard of this inquiry.

It seems to me that in India philosophical thought and religious thought get conflated. Perhaps due to this, for them, the nature of consciousness is a settled matter. All we have to do is just reinvent the same wheel within the parameters established 1000 (Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhwa) or 5000 years ago (Vyasa).

Whether he is right or wrong, Dennett is exploring new ways of understanding consciousness. His theories are not constrained by any religious dogma, but fashioned based on modern scientific findings from a broad spectrum of fields ranging from molecular biology, neurology, human psychology, etc.

Whatever one may say, I am confident he will be guided by scientific facts, not some worn out dogma.


This is really telling, isn't. For this guy, Dennet and others not wanting to assume anything more than what can be observed is "superstition". But, in the very next sentence he says we "have to recognize" we have a soul, as if that is a self-evident fact.

It looks like for theosophists what is important is, science must agree with their beliefs, or else, science is no good.


R.C. Hoagland, seriously??? This guy thinks one of the moons of Saturn is a spacecraft built by aliens. If I am not mistaken he is a part of the ID crowd as well. These antecedents must make us weary of what he says as science.


Again we have a couple of people motivated by religion rather than science.

The most persuasive evidence for evolution comes from biology. Even if we have absolutely no fossil evidence, scientists still have overwhelming evidence in support of evolution. The abundance of fossil evidence is only the icing.

Not one of these tons and tons fossil evidence is anachronistic. Even one such fossil can disprove evolution, but not a single one. But that is not all. We continue to find new and new fossil evidence exactly as evolution predicts. So, denying evolution is a strange way to claim to be scientific.
1. I am a Dennet Fan at least he sounds good I too am feel that free will and determinism are compatible ideas Daniel Dennett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. To quote RCH and that too Monuments in Mars is audacious take a look here
Richard C. Hoagland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I dested from commenting in the Sunrise article
Like I said this says nothing about the "Quantum mechanics or neurochemistry of thought?" It is just a popular Pseudoscience essay
 
The discussions seem to have rather abruptly ended with the above posting, after I had started a new thread on Viswam and Vishnu.
In this thread, Turiya and Plasma, seems to have attracted good attention and AUM, to a lesser extent.
Dr. Arun had made some strong statements that "religious emotions and imageries mainly stem from UNCONSTRAINED extrapolation of capacities( like the AUM here)(Arun dt 21.1. 4.31 pm)_ He has also stated that "Religion is not a field of enquiry" (Arun21.1.5.03pm)
I had posted my two replies on 23.1.
The question still remains whether a reasonable scientific explanation can be found for AUM or not.
Again I had raised a question about the relationship between Buddhism, Samkhyam and Advaitam, and the connection between the three teachers. There has been no comment on this so far.
I will be happy to see further views on these.
Respects and Regards,
Ramanathan
 
Just to add info.

The reference of OM has appeared in 3 different context in the Yajur Veda:
1) OM Pratistha
2)OM Krato Smara
3)OM Kham Brahma.

Prathista means to install or establish.Thus in the first reference, Yajur Veda is directing the spiritual aspirants to install OM(God) in their hearts.

In the second reference OM Krato--Krato means Yajna.Yajna means any activity dedicated to the glory of God.
Yajna is renunciation,sacrifice or giving up.For whom? For the Divine Lord.
Hence chant OM mantra while preforming Yajna.

In the third reference of OM Kham Brahma the adjective Kham used for Brahma means that OM is Brahman(God) who is Kham ,infinite like the sky.


In the Chandogya Upanishad Om has been called Udgeetha which means Ud(superbly) + geeth(worth singing).
Thus OM mantra is superbly good and worth chanting or singing by spiritual aspirants aspirants for self realization.

In the Mandukya Upanishad OM has been called Akshara(indestructable), which refers to God.

In the Kathopanishad OM has been termed as the very essense of scriptures.


taken from Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba and Lord shiva by Suresh C.Bhatnagar
 
nara,

But, in the very next sentence he says we "have to recognize" we have a soul, as if that is a self-evident fact.

Atma or soul is self-evident for a living breathing eating sleeping person/being.Only for a dead body,self atma or soul is unavailable.And Science agree with this.Can Science bring back a dead person ,a BIG NO.But Maahaans have done it thru their siddhis.Material science has a lot to learn and go a long way sir.

When one meditates,the internal sound that you hear is, A U M = OM,aaa uuu mmaa.The Pranava Mantram given to us by rishis.

Since its hearsay for me,from NASA scientists,astronauts swear by seeing/hearing signs/sounds like aum?I believe because,adi sankara could travel in astral body to enter the kings body to enjoy family life,in order to win the debate with suresvaracharya the first sringeri acharya before he became the student of adi sankara.

The visible objects that we see are akin to the body.The earth spins on its axis and rotates around the Sun,due to forces inherent within and outside.Our rishis gave the term bhu-devi shakthi for this energy or force.

When we chant Gayathri Mantram,its all about the fourteen lokas or world...

THE FOURTEEN LOKAS

http://www.sssbpt.info/vahinis/prasnottara/prasnottara02.pdf

Shirdi Sai Baba had already explained to devotees in shirdi,and from 1940 Sathya Sai Baba has been explaining,Mahaswamigal and his gurus starting from adi sankara have been explaining advaitham...the list is endless.What India has produced,producing,keep on producing in the future such eminent Mahaans,all because bhu-loka is a punya bhumi.The abstract teachings are made visible teachings by material science world over.The golden era of science and spiritualism,is just thriving now.Fortunate are we to bask in this period of kali yugam.

I have observed in this forum,that there is a tinge of patriotic fervour which keeps creeping in.Some nationalities are quiet explicit in their comments,favoring their country.One must understand,while we have become a global community as Tamizh Brahmins,each and every one us,are ONE.Tamizh is our language.Brahmin is our birth right.There is nothing to feel ashamed of,if we are unable to follow shastras,sampradayas as established by various guru.We can always do pariharam either in this janmam or the next janmam.Guru Kripa.

nachi naga.
 
Dear Sri. Nachi Naga,
Thank you for your very good posting, particularly for the information from NASA scientists, even though it may be only hearsay.
Regards and Respacts,
Ramanathan
 
Dear all,
Can we then start in a small individual approach that, henceforth, when we chant OM or AUM, daily in our various mantras, or sandhyavandhanam, japam etc, or when the Vadhyar comes for some rituals etc at home, we do not chant AUM in a preremptory fashion, but in a way that it first has the strength of a mantra and then transcends to yoga? This is a small thing that all of us can do without any difficulty. How many Ayes will I have for this proposal?
Regards and Respects,
ramanathan.
 
For six weeks now, there has been no reply to the above simple request of chanting AUM orOM as a Mantra. and not in a preremptory fashion as we genrally do. Do I take it that there is no really any positive response or that the viewers think that it is "Adikaprasangittanam" on my part to request the readers to do something, as if they do not know it or that they are not already practicing it?
Regards and Respects,
Ramanathan.
 
Dear all...

i want to add some info from the Prasnopanishad i have been reading...
Its about AUM...

i am just going to type out this from the book;

It is held that OM is the sound symbol of Brahman and so it is said to be the first sound produced at the begining of creation.
From the three maatraas of Om came out the "feet" of Gayatri and from the three "feet" came out the three Vedas and the three worlds or Vyaahrtis.

From "A" came out 'tat savitur varenyam' which expanded itself into the Rigveda
From "U" came out 'bhargo devasya dhimahi' which expanded itself into the Yajurveda
From "M" came out 'dhiyo yo nah prachodayat' which expanded itself into Saamaveda.

The first is stutipara(hymnal)
The second is kriyaapara(devoted to work)
The third is jnanapara(devoted to knowledge)
 
Dear Dr. Renuka,
What you have quoted from Prasnopanishad is the same as I have mentioned in my book, refer the appndis on Vedas and Gayatri, but in the reverse order.
Regards and Respects,
Ramanathan.
 
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