Are Parents too rigid when it comes to Marriage?

[hathim]

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I feel the parents are being too rigid looking and putting various conditions for a marriage and thereby the marriage either getting delayed or happening with persons with whom we dont have compatibility. This new millenium is witnesses even more crazy parents who contradict their own actions. On one hand they demand that a boy or girl should be well educated, modern, rich and should be earning a lot and their respective family must be atleast upper middle class. But on the other hand they try to look too much in this horoscope matching thereby letting go off good varans and finally dumping the boy or girl with a person with whom they aren't compatible. Further if the boy or the girl loves someone then the scenario is even more worse (though am not particularly against a Brahmin marrying a NB, but i would like our community people to marry within our community and help sustain our group and our rituals, traditions etc etc) and either it is rejected at the outset or if at all the parents consent to the love somewhat they then start looking at the above mentioned conditions and reject on the basis of economy etc and even if the status is also good, there is another hurdle waiting for the young pair to undergo one more depression and that is getting rejected on the basis of Horoscope saying 3-4 very important poruthams aren't there. In this way i find either youngsters suddenly bursting out of this too much nagging and marrying someone out of our community or marrying someone whom our parents finally find but whom one doesn't know and with whom the probability of good compatibility is unknown (putting our life at stake in terms of probability, is this right??)
I would like give one example which happened to my close relative. A boy was fixed in an arranged marriage after all the horoscope matching (heard except 1 or 2 all the poruthams matches and that too those major 3-4 poruthams matches too) and he works in TCS and earns very well. So according to the horoscope matching they should live happily (ofcourse litlle fights do come but on the whole should be living happily with almost 8/10 poruthams matching). But what happened was such a sad thing, they got separated in just 2 months. Why this should happen? Wasn't this horoscope matching with its poruthams suggested that they should be a happy couple. So does this mean beyond horoscope matching and stuffs there is one major thing called mutual love and compatibility which should be the first thing to be seen before other stuffs!!
I would like to get the views here as to whether is it time the parents in the name of "we are doing everything for you and the well being of future and we worked hard in our life only for you and now leave it to us as we know what is good for you" be asked to stopped being rigid and be little liberal?? Also what must be done to change the scenario, what is the solution to make parents realise this?

 

[hathim]

Friends any views, its so sad and frustrating to see one of my close relative's life going awry just in 2 months.

 

[kunjuppu]

hathim,

100% with you. have you seen any matrimonial ads which says that jadhaga porutham not needed.

our children had indicated to us that they would prefer to find their own mates, which is very OK with us.

however, enquiries always comes up. one particular candidate from our tambram was very eager about one of my children - i told the person frankly, the two people involved, let the meet and check out the chemistry.

pat came the answer - query about jadhagam. i did not believe in it. can i then provide the place, dob of my child? NO.

i have not yet understood how so educated and forward looking folks, stoop to nth level porutham when it comes to marriage. maybe all this education is only skin deep? real knowledge has not penetrated our psyche?

recently i saw vijay tv neeya naana episode .. almost all participants, all castes, wanted horoscope matching and marriage within caste. it was an eye opener for moi.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Age old practice instilled in people with doubt and fear. Life is complex for people of pre-Aryan period as also for the 5 July 2011 and beyond. We promise according to our hopes but perform according to our fears. Cant help. Can we? God does not want to appear because nobody would believe him if he does.

 

[hathim]

Age old practice instilled in people with doubt and fear. Life is complex for people of pre-Aryan period as also for the 5 July 2011 and beyond. We promise according to our hopes but perform according to our fears. Cant help. Can we? God does not want to appear because nobody would believe him if he does.

Yeah thats right, but i guess the situation should change and should change soon

 

[InquisitiveMind]

200% with Hathim , yeszir you are bang on target ,wish our folks would put aside these petty horoscope matching and gothram un-matching issues and look at the person in general.
Horoscope matching for marriage per se is considered a bad idea by many astrologers,
A question that oft strikes me here..
It is said that an horoscope is generated with reference to the time of birth and place of birth .Period.
How is it that this horoscope would change because of marrying someone after a period of 20-25 years ? . Beats me.

 

[tks]

200% with Hathim , yeszir you are bang on target ,wish our folks would put aside these petty horoscope matching and gothram un-matching issues and look at the person in general.
Horoscope matching for marriage per se is considered a bad idea by many astrologers,
A question that oft strikes me here..
It is said that an horoscope is generated with reference to the time of birth and place of birth .Period.
How is it that this horoscope would change because of marrying someone after a period of 20-25 years ? . Beats me.

There was a time and place one wanted to minimize harm due to hidden variables in a wedding. In the absence of any concrete information horoscope matching was used. The predictions are not just based on who the horoscope only but who they are married to (after marriage), children's horoscope etc - in other words the approach to predictions seem to have too many degrees of freedom.

So the horoscope does not change but predictions change after marriage since now astrologer has to look at both!

I wish there was a way to enable meeting of youngsters like the Jewish community does. I am sure over time this form of 'arranging marriage' will come to India some day

 

[N.S.Venkateshwaran]

Horoscope may not be 100% correct. There is always a chance that the time of birth got recorded incorrectly. Hence, we should not insist on perfect jathaka poruttam.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Sir,

Horoscopes, if properly studied and interpreted, do reveal many things like longevity
, character, compatibility etc. Unfortunately many astrologers do not study
these properly and are commercial.

They can even warn the parents if they find the marriage won't last long and give
other adverse features , but they do not do it normally. Since people would like
to hear good things only, they desist from giving correct predictions and ,
in some cases, suggest some pariharams.

Again, as has been rightly said, what is the guarantee about the recording of
correct time of birth. According to Krishnamurthy paddhathi, even a minute
counts in prediction.

 

[sangom]

I feel the parents are being too rigid looking and putting various conditions for a marriage and thereby the marriage either getting delayed or happening with persons with whom we dont have compatibility. This new millenium is witnesses even more crazy parents who contradict their own actions. On one hand they demand that a boy or girl should be well educated, modern, rich and should be earning a lot and their respective family must be atleast upper middle class. But on the other hand they try to look too much in this horoscope matching thereby letting go off good varans and finally dumping the boy or girl with a person with whom they aren't compatible. Further if the boy or the girl loves someone then the scenario is even more worse (though am not particularly against a Brahmin marrying a NB, but i would like our community people to marry within our community and help sustain our group and our rituals, traditions etc etc) and either it is rejected at the outset or if at all the parents consent to the love somewhat they then start looking at the above mentioned conditions and reject on the basis of economy etc and even if the status is also good, there is another hurdle waiting for the young pair to undergo one more depression and that is getting rejected on the basis of Horoscope saying 3-4 very important poruthams aren't there. In this way i find either youngsters suddenly bursting out of this too much nagging and marrying someone out of our community or marrying someone whom our parents finally find but whom one doesn't know and with whom the probability of good compatibility is unknown (putting our life at stake in terms of probability, is this right??)
I would like give one example which happened to my close relative. A boy was fixed in an arranged marriage after all the horoscope matching (heard except 1 or 2 all the poruthams matches and that too those major 3-4 poruthams matches too) and he works in TCS and earns very well. So according to the horoscope matching they should live happily (ofcourse litlle fights do come but on the whole should be living happily with almost 8/10 poruthams matching). But what happened was such a sad thing, they got separated in just 2 months. Why this should happen? Wasn't this horoscope matching with its poruthams suggested that they should be a happy couple. So does this mean beyond horoscope matching and stuffs there is one major thing called mutual love and compatibility which should be the first thing to be seen before other stuffs!!
I would like to get the views here as to whether is it time the parents in the name of "we are doing everything for you and the well being of future and we worked hard in our life only for you and now leave it to us as we know what is good for you" be asked to stopped being rigid and be little liberal?? Also what must be done to change the scenario, what is the solution to make parents realise this?

Shri Hathim,

Horoscope matching is, in my limited knowledge and opinion, like a doctor trying to make use of the stethoscope to pinpoint cardiac blocks Yes, there were/are some specially gifted astrologers who could read the charts and predict whether the horoscopes indicated a long and satisfactory married life, but such astrologers are difficult to find.

Secondly, even in olden days marriages were decided on the basis of preferences and conveniences of the patriarchs and the young boy and girl had to submit to those wishes and decisions. Since divorce was unheard of, and estrangement (living separately) was considered a great black mark on the families of both the boy and the girl, each couple had to learn to adjust to each other and ensure a placid outwardly appearance. I myself know about 4 or 5 such very unhappy marriages in which one of the spouses lived a very troubled life, but nevertheless, they had children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and so on.

Today, the conditions are entirely different. Girls are as much or even more highly educated, and they earn as much or more than the boys; the present milieu also fosters the individuality and assertiveness of the female. Because of all such reasons, the boy/husband can no longer pretend to be like what his father did as a husband; in most cases the husband has no superior role or place and since the wife is the queen of the house (at least in the bed room) the husband has to be like a glorified factotum to the wife. Most boys instinctively understand this requirement but some youth try to play the role of the old generation husband and the marriage breaks down irreversibly at the very first rupture itself because the wife will not forgive even one slip on the part of her spouse and, in some cases, the male has enough ego that he will break the relation rather than agree to apologize and patch up with his wife.

In a few cases such uncompromising husbands have got divorce and married a divorcee second wife and that second marriage lasts. Seeing this trend, the wives now are advised by feminist social workers not to agree to give divorce and to "torture him till he becomes useless and even a ripe old woman will not like to go near him". (This is the advice one estranged young wife got from her well-wisher friend!) The wives also ensure that they get maintenance support from the poor fellow because it seems that as per Law the husband is obliged to pay maintenance support to the estranged wife and child/children and this will deplete his purse very very much.

 

[InquisitiveMind]

Dear Parents,
An appeal to please see the quality of the groom/bride , his education , family background , his habits and his nature not a paper prediction of what s/he could be . For there are many an instance a person's life is shaped through real life experience that cant be read by horoscopes . (Despite allowances for varying degrees of freedom and ambiguities)

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Parents,
An appeal to please see the quality of the groom/bride , his education , family background , his habits and his nature not a paper prediction of what s/he could be . For there are many an instance a person's life is shaped through real life experience that cant be read by horoscopes . (Despite allowances for varying degrees of freedom and ambiguities)

IQ,

good luck to your pleas. i fear these are falling on deaf ears. just judging from the swayamvaram conducted by this forum, about a year ago, and also from all the ads in the matrimony websites.

best is, if you are looking for a bride, find one yourself. if not by hook, by crook. best wishes..

 

[InquisitiveMind]

So Dear Sir.what say thee,should we leave things as they be?Or should we atleast try to push for reform?

IQ,

good luck to your pleas. i fear these are falling on deaf ears. just judging from the swayamvaram conducted by this forum, about a year ago, and also from all the ads in the matrimony websites.

best is, if you are looking for a bride, find one yourself. if not by hook, by crook. best wishes..

 

[kunjuppu]

IQ,

have you seen the stubborn look that comes to folks when you mention even loosening one string from the tightly rolled ball of restrictions that these people bring to the table when looking for matches for their children.

not just tambrams, but all other tamil tribes as well. if vijat tv has to be believed.

as a result we have 30+ year old boys, waiting for their mommys and daddys to bring them a girl, and frustrated mommy daddy venting their anger and disappointment in this forum, about the 'unfairness' of the system, the 'thimir' of the girls and their parents etc.

i agree advice is easy to give. but if there is an ounce of reason in it, and if there are no takers, what to do?

let nature and time take its own course. eventually something will happen. if not anything else, because there is no marriage, there is no kids. atleast it will contribute to managing the population increasing, albeit through disastrous consequences to the tambram community, now and to the future generations, as our pool will become only smaller.

jai tambrams.

 

[T R RAMAMURTHY]

Dear All
Namaskarams. Kunjuppu Sir, I am writing after long lay off. I have found out that the results are both ways. There have been cases of excellent compatibility which came just through matched horoscopes and some special careers made. I have also seen break ups despite proper care taken by parents. The practice as such is not to be called despicable - because certain life experiences are like that. I am a father of two boys in the age 29 and 26 and I find that the boys these days too are weary of marriages. In the olden days, there was nothing much to pick and choose as marriage was an occasion for the larger family - not just the immediate unitary family but the agraharam of course. The marriages were arranged by families in a well knit society structure within a district. People were afraid to give girls to boys in the next district. In that type of a structure, the larger family was the reason for the happiness of marriage and even the couple got support from the larger family circle. The familly today is unitary, with not much support from relatives but only from friends of which some are not even hindus - leave alone brahmins. These days the girls are bold and open and do not hesitate to express themselves frankly with the result that incompatibility problems are common. We grew in an atmosphere of sacrifice for younger brothers and sisters and for the family members. Adjustment between family members was common. These days the kids do not even know what sacrifice means as they have not been exposed to the situations. They get as children what all they want and have not seen suffering and what role can a joint family play in that. So they are not interested in making a marriage work. Marriage is to be made workable by the families though seniors like Kunjuppu sir would not agree on this. According to me, the blame rests with the disintegration of joint family system and false notions of many that economic freedom (financial independence of unit family) has more merit than personal merits of individuals. Left to myself, I would vote for the good nature of the girls for their sharing and caring attitude not only for the husband but also for the members of the immediate family. I am praying for wedding bells in my family.

 

[InquisitiveMind]

IQ,

have you seen the stubborn look that comes to folks when you mention even loosening one string from the tightly rolled ball of restrictions that these people bring to the table when looking for matches for their children.

not just tambrams, but all other tamil tribes as well. if vijat tv has to be believed.

as a result we have 30+ year old boys, waiting for their mommys and daddys to bring them a girl, and frustrated mommy daddy venting their anger and disappointment in this forum, about the 'unfairness' of the system, the 'thimir' of the girls and their parents etc.

i agree advice is easy to give. but if there is an ounce of reason in it, and if there are no takers, what to do?

let nature and time take its own course. eventually something will happen. if not anything else, because there is no marriage, there is no kids. atleast it will contribute to managing the population increasing, albeit through disastrous consequences to the tambram community, now and to the future generations, as our pool will become only smaller.

jai tambrams.

Yes Sir , I have seen those looks many a time within the extended family . You yourself have rightly pointed out the consequences of such an attitude on our future generations.Yet, you say we are helpless. I'm not trying to say that I'm a pioneer of any sort , but shouldn't there be someone to start to change. ? Europe escaped it's ignorant Middle ages through the dawn of Renaissance ,are we waiting for something similar to happen here ? Well , if that is the case then I can see that it has already started off in the minds of few people , like the respected Mr . Ramamurthy Sir who has posted above.His points seem very valid , and its just the good nature and character of the bride/groom that merit more value than anything else.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear TRR, IQ,

first and foremost, i wish to say that i am not opposed to any rules or forms, where marriage is involved.

let us take a reality check. we cannot turn the clock backwards, and wish for a joint family living or values. it is no more. nuclear family is in. so is multi caste multi faith friendship. also tv, internet and emancipation of our women.

we however appear to stick with attitudes when it comes to marriage, which are not in sync with today's reality. especially when it comes to arranged marriages.

even if TRR puts an ad in any of the matrimonial sites, proclaiming that jadhagam is optional, (yet provides the jadhagam), my gut feeling is that folks will respond to him, only on the basis of porutham. it appears to be a mindset. if you dont provide jathagam, chances are that there will be no responses

i think my mother was way beyond her times. mine was an arranged marriage, facilitated through chance meeting of the elders. once we got to know the family, and both families liked what they saw, mom threw the horoscope to the winds. my sibling was a love marriage, and no horoscope. this was over 30 years ago.

for the past 5 years, not a single marriage in my family in india is an arranged one. almost all have married within tambrams, but either it is childhood friends, college mates or 'arranged' love ie the youngsters facilitated to meet, and encouraged to couple.

the last one, is a vialbe one for today's parents. instead of waiting till the boy or girl has a job, they might try to introduce them to possible partners. once upon a time, the weddings were occassions for this to happen. nowadays with weddings being few and far between, one almost has to go out of the way to find suitable mates for one's children. still there is no guarantee that the other party will respond.

to sum up, all in all, a sticky wicket.

in the weddings that i have attended recently, just because the choice is a tambram, does not mean, i found, finds an automatic OK. then comes the nitty picky, like status, wealth, education and what not. well off girls, falling in love, with poorer or darker looking boys, is always frowned upon, given a hard time, and all sorts of excuses trumped up.

TRR i wish you the best in your endeavour to find spouses for your sons. i cannot tell you what to do.

but my wife and i have discussed, had we been in situations like yourself, a plan of action: we would treat it like an i.t. project, with must have, wants and would likes. once the list is made, we would timebox the project. the 'must have' would move to the wants list, if after 3 months there are no takers, and we keep on moving the specifications, till a suitable likeable match occurs.

ofcourse, with this approach, there is no guarantee that we will get a tamil speaking, or even same caste bride. but between this, and our son at 30, when the prime of his energies are slowly being eroded, i would consider, the domestic setup as more important than anything else.

i should confess that my own children have told us, that they will take care finding their own mates. so being a realistic person, while keeping an audit eye on their choices, will accept whomever they bring home as a potential partner. i think that is the smart thing to do.

 

[Carthic]

Nice topic of discussion. I agree with your point.

But today, our people are so fixated about the idea of a marriage that the aspect of unconditional love and mutual affection isn't even given importance. How many prospective couples/parents even talk about it before a marriage?

On marriages, just an interesting quote I came across recently:

I don't believe in marriage. I just don't think it's necessary in this day and age. I just think if you need to get married, then you're already distrusting the person. Why do you have to sign something to show your love? You just love, everyday. - Josie Maran

 

[Nara]

..... then comes the nitty picky, like status, wealth, education and what not.....

K, the next in line among my nephews put a condition to his father for his prospective bride -- the girl's side must produce test results that the girl is free of STD. This demand of his was shocking to me. I was wondering if he had fallen in love with a girl on his own accord and wanted to marry her, would he ask the girl to produce such a certificate? I don't know what to make of this. I am interested in the views of both the youngsters and the parents. Is this becoming a kind of standard in Tamil Nadu? What do young girls think of this?

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

K, the next in line among my nephews put a condition to his father for his prospective bride -- the girl's side must produce test results that the girl is free of STD. This demand of his was shocking to me. I was wondering if he had fallen in love with a girl on his own accord and wanted to marry her, would he ask the girl to produce such a certificate? I don't know what to make of this. I am interested in the views of both the youngsters and the parents. Is this becoming a kind of standard in Tamil Nadu? What do young girls think of this?

Cheers!

Nara,

not sure whether to cheer or cringe.

so, it appears, our boys, accept the fact that the girl they marry may not be a virgin. otherwise they would have asked of a pov (proof of virginty) like the arabs.

it could also mean, that they themselves might not be virgin, which is quite a different situation in my time. so atleast the double standards are sort of disappearing.

still, it sounds crass. but then nara, in many of the arranged marriages, including mine, the couple involved meet, have a brief chat, go through a ceremony, and bare each others naked. now, when my children heard about this, all they could scream in unison, was, 'HOW GROSS!!'

 

[Carthic]

K, the next in line among my nephews put a condition to his father for his prospective bride -- the girl's side must produce test results that the girl is free of STD. This demand of his was shocking to me. I was wondering if he had fallen in love with a girl on his own accord and wanted to marry her, would he ask the girl to produce such a certificate? I don't know what to make of this. I am interested in the views of both the youngsters and the parents. Is this becoming a kind of standard in Tamil Nadu? What do young girls think of this?

Cheers!

This is largely the existing situation. I've heard of medical certificates being demanded, but nothing referring to STDs in particular. However, as long as he's prepared to willfully submit one himself (even before he asked one from the girl) one wouldn't question his morality.

 

[Nara]

....so, it appears, our boys, accept the fact that the girl they marry may not be a virgin. otherwise they would have asked of a pov (proof of virginty) like the arabs.

K, I think his intent was virginity, or may be I am more ill informed on these matters than I thought. Starting out with suspicion, a prove you are not guilty stand, is a funny way to start a marriage.

Cheers!

 

[amala]

Perhaps he feels its like buying a product (a car anyone??). You've got to check that its perfect before paying for it!

But seriously, he may just be disillusioned and suspicious of the girls hes seen thus far and wants to be on the safe side so to speak.

All in all i agree its not a nice way to start married life.

 

[Nara]

Perhaps he feels its like buying a product (a car anyone??).

But seriously, he may just be disillusioned and suspicious of the girls hes seen thus far and wants to be on the safe side so to speak.

Amala, this is what I was wondering about. During the days of my generation, there was no question of thinking in this way. Boys, even those that show some bravado, the excitement almost always is overwhelmed by fright. They could afford to timidly give in to the fright -- the system of arranged marriage ensured they didn't have to pay price for it.

People in the west, if they are timid, they will have to lead a lonely life. Even so, they did not rush into marriage, in the most part they try to find a soul mate, at which point the sexual history becomes unimportant.

The present condition in TN, I guess, people better informed may correct me, is kind of in transition. Youngsters are not timid anymore, but arranged marriage is still the norm. Freedom outside the home and strict tradition at home, is perhaps the reason for this paranoia and insecurity.

I wonder how a girl will feel if she is asked to produce this certificate. Are there girls demanding such a certificate from the boys?

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

i am disheartened by the young man's attitude. what a way to enter a relationship.

i have read reports that in paris france, restoring women's hymens for arab ladies, is the most popular cosmetic surgery. these guys are not far behind that.

these guys are so insecure and so unsure of themselves, that they want a guaranteed virgin.

i think it is a sad state to enter into matrimony. what if they find out, that the girl they married had a fling earlier, after he has had a couple of children. is he going to throw them all in the streets?

i think the best attitude would be absolute fidelity of each after marriage, something i think, most of the boys and girls, all over the world, intent to do. what each did before the marriage, is best not sought and if they hear something through third party, best ignored.

if i were on the girls' side, and some idiot asked me for viriginty certificate for my daughter, i would tell him to get lost. good riddance of such suspicious minds, as i would be convinced, this guy is so suspicious, that my daughter will find it hard to live with him, and assuage his suspicions.

i have a close female relative, who married a guy like that. if her office phone was picked by a male colleague, all hell would break loose when she returned home. after 16 years of mental torture, she finally got the guts to walk out on him. to peace and sanity.