Anil Seth, neuroscientist: ‘The notion of the soul may already have outlived its usefulness’

[prasad1]

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Anil Seth speaks of consciousness as a controlled hallucination. The world we perceive, which seems so real to us, so hard to imagine in any other way, arises from a kind of negotiation between the way it reaches us through our senses and what we expect from it. From this reconstructed experience, which is also influenced by those of the people around us and the society in which we live, our consciousness and our self emerge. In his book Being You: A New Science of Consciousness, Seth, a cognitive neuroscientist from the University of Sussex in the U.K., guides us through his extensive experience as a student of consciousness in one of the most exciting scientific pursuits of the present, one that will continue to be so for decades to come. In an interview with EL PAÍS, he assures that — contrary to what some experts suggest — this challenge, which today seems impossible, will likely soon be within reach, as other peaks apparently inaccessible to human knowledge were before.

Question. In the 19th century, it was thought that life could not be explained in material terms, that a kind of spark of life was necessary, something mysterious and almost magical. Then came genes, DNA and other tools to try to understand it. Will it be possible to take that step with consciousness?

Answer. We have to wait and see. The notion of the soul, for instance, maybe that’s already outlived its usefulness. Concepts like free will are already succumbing and losing that sense of mystery. Free will is not this supernatural force that sweeps in and changes the course of events in the universe. It’s a particular kind of experience that organisms have related to actions that come from within. There’s nothing mysterious about that anymore, although not everybody agrees.

Little by little, this sense of mystery, that consciousness is really just this different thing that doesn’t fit into a picture of the universe made of atoms and quarks and neurons and bones and flesh may fade. For me, it’s already fading, but it’s not gone entirely because we don’t have the complete answer yet. Progress in science is often marked by changing the question we ask, not just finding answers to the questions we already had. People didn’t find the spark of life; they stopped looking for it because it was no longer the right question to ask.

MSN

 

[renuka]

Anil Seth speaks of consciousness as a controlled hallucination. The world we perceive, which seems so real to us, so hard to imagine in any other way, arises from a kind of negotiation between the way it reaches us through our senses and what we expect from it. From this reconstructed experience, which is also influenced by those of the people around us and the society in which we live, our consciousness and our self emerge. In his book Being You: A New Science of Consciousness, Seth, a cognitive neuroscientist from the University of Sussex in the U.K., guides us through his extensive experience as a student of consciousness in one of the most exciting scientific pursuits of the present, one that will continue to be so for decades to come. In an interview with EL PAÍS, he assures that — contrary to what some experts suggest — this challenge, which today seems impossible, will likely soon be within reach, as other peaks apparently inaccessible to human knowledge were before.

Question. In the 19th century, it was thought that life could not be explained in material terms, that a kind of spark of life was necessary, something mysterious and almost magical. Then came genes, DNA and other tools to try to understand it. Will it be possible to take that step with consciousness?

Answer. We have to wait and see. The notion of the soul, for instance, maybe that’s already outlived its usefulness. Concepts like free will are already succumbing and losing that sense of mystery. Free will is not this supernatural force that sweeps in and changes the course of events in the universe. It’s a particular kind of experience that organisms have related to actions that come from within. There’s nothing mysterious about that anymore, although not everybody agrees.

Little by little, this sense of mystery, that consciousness is really just this different thing that doesn’t fit into a picture of the universe made of atoms and quarks and neurons and bones and flesh may fade. For me, it’s already fading, but it’s not gone entirely because we don’t have the complete answer yet. Progress in science is often marked by changing the question we ask, not just finding answers to the questions we already had. People didn’t find the spark of life; they stopped looking for it because it was no longer the right question to ask.

MSN

Something must be wrong with me...I cant make out what Dr Seth is trying to convey.

 

[renuka]

Its a bit strange that he tends to feel that our overall perception is what he calls consciousness.
He states that our consciousness emerges from the input we gain through our senses, experiences in our life, enviromental factors, conditioning by society etc.

But isnt that a definition of our perception which is dependent on both intrinsic and extrinsic factors which is subject to change?
That isnt the view of consciousness at all.

Consciousness is unchanging and isnt dependent on our "subject to change" perception.

I get it that Dr Seth is trying to decode consciousness..but he could decode it better if he had some Advaita input to enhance his works.

 

[thebigthinkg]

One way to look at it is like this.

Energy and Consciousness cannot be defined except through their impacts. Think about it. Whatever that is expressed as heat, motion, light etc is what we call as energy. But we don't know what that energy is beyond this. Same way whatever that is expressed as signaling, growth, adaptation is what we call as consciousness. But we don't know whta that consciousness is beyond this.

Whatever we call as energy is expressed in different force-fields which quantizes energy giving a particle form. But these particle forms are fleeting. Only when Higgs field acquires vacuum expectation value, it condenses energy in some fields, creating something called 'mass' of particles due to Higgs interaction. The otherwise fleeting particles in different fields filled with energy, startinteracting and evolving to higher order forms of matter.

Energy was held inside these evolving matter forms and used in their interactions to acquire more energy or spend energy. All evolution of matter forms can be seen as acquisition or spending of energy by matter forms.

Whatever we call as consciousness may be expressed in all matter forms in some quantized form and hence not expressed. But in some combinations (polymer chains) consciousness gets condensed, creating something called 'manas' of beings. The otherwise fleeting matter forms probably filled with quantized consciousness, start interacting and evolving to higher order forms of beings.

Ultimately what we call as Energy and what we call as Consciousness may be the same. The same thing when expressed through primitive forms of particles is known as energy and expressed through more complex matter forms is known as consciousness. Maybe when expressed through more superior matter forms it may be some super consciousness (the ability to self-realize by differentiating our self as acting self and witnessing self)

 

[renuka]

One way to look at it is like this.

Energy and Consciousness cannot be defined except through their impacts. Think about it. Whatever that is expressed as heat, motion, light etc is what we call as energy. But we don't know what that energy is beyond this. Same way whatever that is expressed as signaling, growth, adaptation is what we call as consciousness. But we don't know whta that consciousness is beyond this.

Whatever we call as energy is expressed in different force-fields which quantizes energy giving a particle form. But these particle forms are fleeting. Only when Higgs field acquires vacuum expectation value, it condenses energy in some fields, creating something called 'mass' of particles due to Higgs interaction. The otherwise fleeting particles in different fields filled with energy, startinteracting and evolving to higher order forms of matter.

Energy was held inside these evolving matter forms and used in their interactions to acquire more energy or spend energy. All evolution of matter forms can be seen as acquisition or spending of energy by matter forms.

Whatever we call as consciousness may be expressed in all matter forms in some quantized form and hence not expressed. But in some combinations (polymer chains) consciousness gets condensed, creating something called 'manas' of beings. The otherwise fleeting matter forms probably filled with quantized consciousness, start interacting and evolving to higher order forms of beings.

Ultimately what we call as Energy and what we call as Consciousness may be the same. The same thing when expressed through primitive forms of particles is known as energy and expressed through more complex matter forms is known as consciousness. Maybe when expressed through more superior matter forms it may be some super consciousness (the ability to self-realize by differentiating our self as acting self and witnessing self)

But energy can be measured and also changes form( subject to change)...we have not been able to measure consciousness and is consciousness subject to change?

 

[renuka]

Part of the problem to define consciousness is we are trying to compare it with something we already know..either through neuroscience or through physics.

Both neuroscience and physics have the Observer and Observed phenomenon..we already know about duality of light itself which functions as a wave when not observed and functions as a particle as observed.

Now..can we imagine Consciousness ?
Its not " created" ..its non changing..it can never be destroyed..its eternal..it surely has no duality in it..so how can it ever be observed?

Light can have duality when it is observed and not observed..but even if hypothetically if Consciousness can be observed..are we going to say it also has wave particle duality?
Surely not isnt it?
If has duality then it cant be consciousness anymore.

Consciousness does not have an observer and neither it is observed.
So what is it?
We have no answers.
Hence Advaita states its beyond perception or description or comprehension.

Only Consciousness verily is.

 

[sravna]

Consciousness is one of the essential aspects of Brahman the other being existence and bliss. These correspond to mental, physical and spiritual respectively. They are all one experience in Brahman. What scientists refer as consciousness is the projected and limited one from pure consciousness of Brahman. Everything in the physical and mental reality is limited by maya. They per se do not reflect the truth but you can lift the veil, so to speak and become one with reality. Outside of it you have no chance of grasping the complete truth.

 

[renuka]

Consciousness is one of the essential aspects of Brahman the other being existence and bliss. These correspond to mental, physical and spiritual respectively. They are all one experience in Brahman. What scientists refer as consciousness is the projected and limited one from pure consciousness of Brahman. Everything in the physical and mental reality is limited by maya. They per se do not reflect the truth but you can lift the veil, so to speak and become one with reality. Outside of it you have no chance of grasping the complete truth.

Consciousness is one of the essential aspects of Brahman the other being existence and bliss. These correspond to mental, physical and spiritual respectively. They are all one experience in Brahman. What scientists refer as consciousness is the projected and limited one from pure consciousness of Brahman. Everything in the physical and mental reality is limited by maya. They per se do not reflect the truth but you can lift the veil, so to speak and become one with reality. Outside of it you have no chance of grasping the complete truth.

Exactly!

 

[thebigthinkg]

One way to look at it is like this.

Energy and Consciousness cannot be defined except through their impacts. Think about it. Whatever that is expressed as heat, motion, light etc is what we call as energy. But we don't know what that energy is beyond this. Same way whatever that is expressed as signaling, growth, adaptation is what we call as consciousness. But we don't know whta that consciousness is beyond this.

Whatever we call as energy is expressed in different force-fields which quantizes energy giving a particle form. But these particle forms are fleeting. Only when Higgs field acquires vacuum expectation value, it condenses energy in some fields, creating something called 'mass' of particles due to Higgs interaction. The otherwise fleeting particles in different fields filled with energy, startinteracting and evolving to higher order forms of matter.

Energy was held inside these evolving matter forms and used in their interactions to acquire more energy or spend energy. All evolution of matter forms can be seen as acquisition or spending of energy by matter forms.

Whatever we call as consciousness may be expressed in all matter forms in some quantized form and hence not expressed. But in some combinations (polymer chains) consciousness gets condensed, creating something called 'manas' of beings. The otherwise fleeting matter forms probably filled with quantized consciousness, start interacting and evolving to higher order forms of beings.

Ultimately what we call as Energy and what we call as Consciousness may be the same. The same thing when expressed through primitive forms of particles is known as energy and expressed through more complex matter forms is known as consciousness. Maybe when expressed through more superior matter forms it may be some super consciousness (the ability to self-realize by differentiating our self as acting self and witnessing self)

Energy as expressed in matter forms was not measurable few hundred years back. Today we have a measure of energy expressed in matter forms using some tools and techniques in the denomination we understand, so that we can use that measurement to apply in technology evolution. Again we surmise about vacuum energy but we cannot put a value to it, as it is absolute.

Same way in future neuroscience, i think consciousness as expressed in life forms could become a measurable item (today biology is far away from maths, but it will get nearer in future..). This could be used in future to determine life/death of a life form more accurately may be measurements using tools. Again, we may not be able to put a measure on the consciousness as absolute as we cannot do with energy too.