7m Aarivu

[happyhindu]

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7am Arivu - The movie - A review

Finally got to see 7am Arivu. Nice movie, nice plot, but a poorly carried out story line towards the end and an insipid ending.

Surya rocks, he's a legend in the making, and could very well surpass the combine of Rajnikanth and Kamal Hassan put together, 20 years from now. Shruti Hassan got her first boxoffice hit as a lead actress in tamil moviedom.

Considering Shruti Hassan is the daughter of a legend, audience like me wish to see a lot more from her. She's got the talent, just needs to bring it out more.

The plot was nice but the story line was not carrying enough. I was left wondering what sorta genetic manipulation is shruti doing to convert surya into bodhidharma. Found the concept novel but too fictional. Not convincing.

The concept of genetic memory is rather racial and no scientific basis is present as yet in terms of descent. As for the closing scene message of surya i suppose the movie makers did not read the IDSN position paper on Descent and Race.

The fantasy was carried a bit far also, with the idea of keeping surya's body totally covered in liquid, not exposing to sunlight and such unbeleivable stuff (they showed sequencing as though surya is being converted into bodhidharma and i thot why did they not show some science fiction equipment).

For the kind of fantastic and wonderful opening the movie had, the ending was disappointing. It was almost abrupt. And left me thinking "what next?" They did not show how the outbreak of disease was controlled.

An epidemic restricted to an area of China in 5th century wud be more easy to control than a disease that can spread like pandemic thru airtravel, seatravel, etc in present day times. Perhaps a few scenes for a proper closure were never shot (???)..

The plus points of the movie were: the actors, the opening sequences, the plot, the music and the beautiful scenary of China (great cinematography).

The movie wakes up people to the possibility of biological warfare, by anyone, against india. The most important message the movie conveys is preserving our ancient know-hows. Especially considering the patent fights against turmeric and neem, etc, i thot this message was good.

When Aamir Khan remakes the movie, i hope he will convey the message that every indian ought to be proud of bodhidharma, not just tamilians (the Pallavas were anyways not of tamil origin).

Looking forward the the next Surya movie. Definitely 7am arivu was better than Ra.One (Ra.One was too disappointing for a Shahrukh movie).

 

[prasad1]

Finally got to see 7am Arivu. Nice movie, nice plot, but a poorly carried out story line towards the end and an insipid ending.

Surya rocks, he's a legend in the making, and could very well surpass the combine of Rajnikanth and Kamal Hassan put together, 20 years from now. Shruti Hassan got her first boxoffice hit as a lead actress in tamil moviedom.

Considering Shruti Hassan is the daughter of a legend, audience like me wish to see a lot more from her. She's got the talent, just needs to bring it out more.

The plot was nice but the story line was not carrying enough. I was left wondering what sorta genetic manipulation is shruti doing to convert surya into bodhidharma. Found the concept novel but too fictional. Not convincing.

The concept of genetic memory is rather racial and no scientific basis is present as yet in terms of descent. As for the closing scene message of surya i suppose the movie makers did not read the IDSN position paper on Descent and Race.

The fantasy was carried a bit far also, with the idea of keeping surya's body totally covered in liquid, not exposing to sunlight and such unbeleivable stuff (they showed sequencing as though surya is being converted into bodhidharma and i thot why did they not show some science fiction equipment).

For the kind of fantastic and wonderful opening the movie had, the ending was disappointing. It was almost abrupt. And left me thinking "what next?" They did not show how the outbreak of disease was controlled.

An epidemic restricted to an area of China in 5th century wud be more easy to control than a disease that can spread like pandemic thru airtravel, seatravel, etc in present day times. Perhaps a few scenes for a proper closure were never shot (???)..

The plus points of the movie were: the actors, the opening sequences, the plot, the music and the beautiful scenary of China (great cinematography).

The movie wakes up people to the possibility of biological warfare, by anyone, against india. The most important message the movie conveys is preserving our ancient know-hows. Especially considering the patent fights against turmeric and neem, etc, i thot this message was good.

When Aamir Khan remakes the movie, i hope he will convey the message that every indian ought to be proud of bodhidharma, not just tamilians (the Pallavas were anyways not of tamil origin).

Looking forward the the next Surya movie. Definitely 7am arivu was better than Ra.One (Ra.One was too disappointing for a Shahrukh movie).

I understand a Telegu and a kannada version is in making. Good review.

 

[praveen]

Telugu version was also released at the same time. It went by the name 7th Sense. going by what i read, it performed poorly in Bo.

 

[ShivKC]

oops, sorry, for a moment forgot its unnaipol oruvan, the kamalhassan movie...thanks for correcting me...lack of sleep causes such memory loss arrghh...

just curious! lack of memory loss, or just another kind'a lost in time to catch up with another culture?

 

[NSP]

A non Dravidian non Aryan Pallava Tamils

When Aamir Khan remakes the movie, i hope he will convey the message that every indian ought to be proud of bodhidharma, not just tamilians (the Pallavas were anyways not of tamil origin).

That need not be the only conclusion. The early Pallavas who migrated in to South India from across the Himalayas are the ancestors to many non Aryans who have now become part of Tamils. Even genetic profiling has corroborating data to this. Possibility is that most of the Daliths in Tamilnadu today may neither be Dravidians nor Aryans for they may have descended from Pahalvas

 

[happyhindu]

Telugu version was also released at the same time. It went by the name 7th Sense. going by what i read, it performed poorly in Bo.

i wonder why sensible movies with social messages seem to fail at the telugu boxoffice...the telugu audience does not seem to want to grow up...the hit movies are always lovvu stories, or daivam sentiment with gods and goddesses, or stories of heroes doing stuntman hunterman jobs..

 

[happyhindu]

That need not be the only conclusion. The early Pallavas who migrated in to South India from across the Himalayas are the ancestors to many non Aryans who have now become part of Tamils. Even genetic profiling has corroborating data to this.

You have any evidence for this sir??

Possibility is that most of the Daliths in Tamilnadu today may neither be Dravidians nor Aryans for they may have descended from Pahalvas

You say "Neither aryans nor dravidians', but i dunno what that means. As regards associating pallavas with dalits, i may agree.

Lets take a look at the deity Thiruvenkata, who imo is a tribal deity from atleast 300 BC and predates all known religions. Perhaps this deity was even known by some other names earlier like Vehka (in Prakrit?), Vedanga, Vedagam..

It seems possible that as followers (clan?) of Thiruvenkata changed from a tribal state into hindus, jains and buddhists, they gave the same deity their own religious flavour. Therefore people keep claiming he is Shiva or Vishnu or Murugan, or Neminath, Buddha, and so on....

Also, various kings sought association with this deity (kings claimed to be amsam of various Gods btw) and became identified with Thiruvenkata. The supposed association of Pallava king Kumaravishnu with Thiruvenkata perhaps gave rise to the idea that this deity is Murugan (personally i tend to go by the tribal concept of shankudevudu or "God with the Conch" which makes this God rather similar to Krishna).

In the Venkatesha Prapatthi there is the mention in the very first shloka about Panipallava yugam. The Pallavas became very merged with the Bana chieftains (supposedly also known as Pana and Pani) and these Panipallavas perhaps built the earliest ‘temple’ as an enclosure for this deity (thiruvenkatakottam was nearly all the time a bana territory....when pallavas won, the banas served them as feudatories and got merged with them, but when cholas won they served cholas also as feudatories and partly merged with them). Historically the Pallavas also became associated / merged with the Ays (gollas, kurubas) after defeating them.

In this medley of identifying Thiruvenkata's historical association with various kings, there is an additional problem of reconciling the terms prapanna and parpana. It may be possible that a prapanna was the same as pArpana, that is, someone who completely submitted in trust to the emperor and attended to the king’s needs.

The kings could choose to be jain, buddhist, or performer of vedic rites, or he could choose to identify himself as an amsam / incarnation of Shiva, Murugan, Vishnu, or any other deity. Each king’s parpannas vowed complete allegiance to their own king (maybe that’s why we have the Shiva versus Vishnu standoffs in puranas). The role of pArpanas was to compose praises of their own kings. In such a society ‘Kshatriyas’ would seem placed ahead of ‘Brahmins’.

It is impossible to say if there is any association of Panas (banas) with the Pani merchants who are mentioned in the vedas as Asuras. There are many commentaries that the terms asura and dasyu (of vedas) got continued / converted into the term dasa and shudra (to represent slaves) of the dharamashastras.

That is to say, the asuras were defeated, enslaved and became the ‘shudras’ of the dharmashastras (the term ‘shudra’ anyways represented an inimical tribe in the Vedas and the term got applied to anything inimical or enslaved). And so the Brahman got to be ahead of the Kshatriya in the dharmashatras (smrithi period).

There are rather consistent folk ‘myths’ of the standoff between Indra and Krishna (who knows maybe there was a series of shudrAbhira kings, all named Krishna, just as there were a series of Janakas, and possibly every Krishna fought against every Indra over a long period of time).

Anyways, if asuras got defeated and became enslaved, then all their property gets to be owned by the victorious ones. And every single tribe living in the asura territories get to be shudras or slaves of the victorious ones.

Which is why am able to accept the idea of various avarna tribals being labeled shudras by orthodox followers of the dharmashastras (even though good many tribals were infact converted into peasants under british rule and got wages….before the time of the british they were just jungle dwellers, yet from the orthodox dharmashastra pov they would be considered shudras or slaves of dvijas due to the territory in which they lived).

According to Vishnu purana, Sagara defeated the puranic Pahlavas, deprived them of their kshatriyahood (deprieved them of recitation of Vedas), and made them wear moustaches (as the identification of enslaved kings). If compared with history, we see that historically in Pallava art the Pallava kings wore moustaches.

Maybe the idea of moustache became synonymous with bravery in folk ideas akin to the Pallavas who got defeated and yet rose to capture power, (i say this although the dating of certain events remain confusing). In the Parthasarathy temple of Triplicane, Krishna wears a moustache and the temple was built by Pallavas…the Pallavas claimed descent from Vishnu and professed to be brahmans of Bharadwaja gotra...

So you see sir if Pallavas got defeated and became dalits, would not brahmans of Bharadwaja gotras also be dalits (this will apply if people of certain regions claim unbroken descent from gotras) ?

Varna / dharmashastra laws were the judicial feudal laws of hindu kingdoms. In this system Varna is by birth only. It cannot be changed in a lifetime by self-choice. The dharmashastras laws / varna are interpreted and allocated to others by brahmans alone. However, if a king lost, he became a 'dalit' or shudra slave of the victorious king and the loser king's laws no longer applied to the new (victorious) king's state.

Hence logically if Pallavas lost and became 'dalits', then the bharadwajas who arose from Pallava domains also should have become 'dalits'.

If Pallavas are 'dalits', then Krishna, Thiruvenkata, Narasimha will also be 'dalits'. Maybe Rama also. Wonder if any orthodox person is willing to accept that the triplicane Parthasarathy temple and Thirumala koil are those of 'dalits'. Isn’t it strange that people worship ‘dalit’ gods ?

It seems a lot more stranger (to me) that some people want to heed to a call made by one seer. They want to continue varna system in present times...but with their own caveats and ideas.

Maybe some such people want their each individual self-caveats to apply, because ONLY the brahman had the right to interpret (and possibly twist and/or interpolate) the dharmashastras. So its not surprising that some self-entitled 'brahmans' still want to continue the same, each at an individual level.

Everyone knows well that the days of smrithi laws like flogging slaves is over. But a section still wants to follow varna system (with their self-caveats). I wonder what purpose does the varna system serve at all, except self-serving identities and self-imagined ideas of ancestors.

For starters, maybe its a good idea to do a poll and ask how many bharadwaja gotra people from this region (who have no migration history from north / elsewhere before the 8th century AD) -- agree that they are dalits? Before asking who is a true brahmin, maybe its a good idea to ask this first.

 

[NSP]

You have any evidence for this sir??


You say "Neither aryans nor dravidians', but i dunno what that means. As regards associating pallavas with dalits, i may agree.

Regards the Genetic Profiling the chances are that I should have seen the evidence only in one of the forum postings in TB. The second part was a wild thinking that came when I was discussing the film with my daughter and I was surprised that you have a material evidence for it sir. Our long history has many a mysteries and the TB forum should decide the most authentic of it for helping people to get easily connected with their root. The forum managers should tolerate to some extent the sticky postings if it is contributing to consolidating our past

 

[happyhindu]

Regards the Genetic Profiling the chances are that I should have seen the evidence only in one of the forum postings in TB. The second part was a wild thinking that came when I was discussing the film with my daughter and I was surprised that you have a material evidence for it sir. Our long history has many a mysteries and the TB forum should decide the most authentic of it for helping people to get easily connected with their root. The forum managers should tolerate to some extent the sticky postings if it is contributing to consolidating our past

Dear Sir, am humbled with your gentle approach. I thot my post would evoke name-calling and anger. Thankyou sir for the kind reply. I very much agree if everyone puts aside their egos (including me) then tracing history will be a wonderful journey.

The only problem comes when there is a call to adhere to varnashrama dharma in its unsuitable form today. So many brahmins are musicians presently which in itself means they have cast aside the negative side of varna differentiation. It would be so nice to celebrate the good side of things.

I feel, recognising a problem is the first step towards solving it. Atleast if we accept that all of us are mixed indeed, if everyone agrees that varna dharma can be based on present day occupations from now on atleast, then we can go ahead to make an inclusive society; where people can move in and out of different varnas and castes as per their choice and relevance of new age occupations.

But ofcourse there is no place for the term shudra in today's world, since nobody is a slave in present-day occupational roles, and nobody is inimical to the worship forms of vedas and brahamas (texts). Let the term be considered invalid in kaliyuga.

Hope we can have an all-inclusive society where everyone is By Birth considered good, kind, etc from the hindu theology (dharmashatra) pov today (unless ofcourse they turn out to be criminals after growing up. The sins of the offending parents should not affect their child's role in an egalitarian society). Am reminded of KSPV sir's concept of Anbu Smrithi.

Hope someday in future (before its too late) some orthodox mutt or dharma sabha will come forward and initiate reforms to make dharmashastras relevant and applicable to present times. Otherwise the coming generations will remember "shastras" as they existed in their monstrous slave-beating form of the old times.

Btw sir, as for genetics some clues do exist, however there is nothing specific posted on this forum as yet (associating specific sub-groups with relevant kingdoms and checking out their sample profiles can be a very interesting task indeed, though nothing like that has ever been done from the academic side so far).

Regards.

 

[NSP]

Dear Sir, am humbled with your gentle approach.


Atleast if we accept that all of us are mixed indeed, if everyone agrees that varna dharma can be based on present day occupations from now on

Not only me sir but none others seems to have passed any adverse comment to your posting meaning that all are now gentle with you. May be it is due to changed political climate or the possibility is that you have developed just that knack to get that acceptability (demand a promotion from the administrator!).

But gaining Historical perspective is different from inferring meaning from it for present day action. It is not practical to change everyone to change from today for change is a complex a process. The present day behavior of many may also have other dimensions that may not get clarified by Historic perspective. The best dharma is to accept all the community and people as it is today. Europeans and Americans accept the blot in their History but still assert their superiority for what they are today. We all will also try to assert our superiority for what we are today but we do it without any clarity on our History. 'Mission History' alone should matter now

 

[happyhindu]

Not only me sir but none others seems to have passed any adverse comment to your posting meaning that all are now gentle with you. May be it is due to changed political climate or the possibility is that you have developed just that knack to get that acceptability (demand a promotion from the administrator!).

Dear Sir, They say anything that gains acceptance is first ridiculed and opposed. So maybe what i have been saying has started gaining acceptance amongst some people atleast...

But gaining Historical perspective is different from inferring meaning from it for present day action. It is not practical to change everyone to change from today for change is a complex a process. The present day behavior of many may also have other dimensions that may not get clarified by Historic perspective. The best dharma is to accept all the community and people as it is today. Europeans and Americans accept the blot in their History but still assert their superiority for what they are today. We all will also try to assert our superiority for what we are today but we do it without any clarity on our History. 'Mission History' alone should matter now

Sir, i do understand change is a complex process. Afterall all these years everyone has been following social codes of conduct knowingly or unknowingly, either from the dharmashastras or from the grihasutras; so much that even the punyahavachanam and namakaranam for a shudra child is held on the 21st day of its birth, while for a brahmin baby it is on the 10th or 12th day after its birth.

Since such religious conduct and ceremonies are very deeply enmeshed with varna differentiation and social laws, i suppose, that is the backbone of brahmanism (labour laws). A way of showing each one their place in the social hierarchy. This, i suppose, is exactly what makes brahmins the authority of so-called vaidika ritualism. Its a position which orthodox brahmins seek to continue to have. Expectedly, any idea of opening up vedic education to all is anathema to orthodox people.

However, today not even the orthodox people are proper brahmins as prescribed by the dharmashastras. No one is following every single code of conduct prescribed by the dharmashastras. Yet it is all about holding on to birth-based differentiation, which some think, is for the sake of authority, image, position. However, imo a potent factor is fear. IMO, the orthodox mutts are quite lost in this modern world. I guess, there is a fear of change, the fear that something will go wrong if they initiate any changes.

But sir, we have come a long way since democracy was initiated in the land we call India. Its not about just accepting a bolt in history and still keeping it intact. Today most people are aware of things. Sooner or later, the number of voices will grow. It already is. But some want to turn blind to the writing on the wall, get rid of the voices, or turn reactionary. Am quite aware the orthodox mutts and its followers are not going to initiate any change.

But then sir, i feel, it would be rather shameful if changes are made by some law passed by the government (if the majority hindus do not oppose it, there is nothing brahmins alone can do). It would be far more gracious to make changes when flourishing respect still exists.

The vast majority of hindus like to keep their religion, their kuladaivams, native (tribal) practices and all. They are aware of their caste but no younger generation will inflict base treatment on anybody based on caste. As urbaneness grows, caste as old time occupational categories will have lesser and lesser value. And people will eventually grow out of it.

Someone said a mahapurusha will come and make changes in the sankalpam mantram and all, to herald a new manvantara / age. Probably such people wait for a new age which will no longer belong to vaivasvata manu with purandara as indra. They wait for savarni manvantara with bali as the new indra. We shall wait and see what happens (although, imo there is something wrong with the manvantara calculations).

Regards.

 

[NSP]

Someone said a mahapurusha will come and make changes in the sankalpam mantram and all, to herald a new manvantara / age. Probably such people wait for a new age which will no longer belong to vaivasvata manu with purandara as indra. They wait for savarni manvantara with bali as the new indra. We shall wait and see what happens (although, imo there is something wrong with the manvantara calculations).

Regards.

I feel that there was a sense of dejection when there was totally an anti Brahmin government. And now there is a sense of carefree attitude when there is an harmless government even if its apathy towards the Brahmins is apparent. That may be the reason that only two of us are building this topic. Yes sir. Let us wait till some others of this forum open the 7 m Aarivu.

 

[Nara]

....All in all 7aam arivu is a superb thriller, world standard.

Sorry K, I disagree, just back from the movie and what a bore. First, the movie was way too long, way way too long. The plot line was too weak, way way too weak. I know it is only a movie, but is it too much to expect a modicum of plausibility? The Chinese government waging germ warfare against India, a little too much, the least they could have done is to make it an operation of a renegade Chinese official.

I agree with K regarding the political statements, they appeared trite. What is all this about Tamils getting beaten up everywhere, just nonsense. Blanket ode to traditional knowledge is easy chest thumping -- for every tradition that has value there is at least two more that are mindless superstitions.

The action sequences were way too long, repetitious, and silly. Cars are made to go flying for no reason. Much of it seemed copycat, kind of wannabe Terminator that ended up looking silly.

Acting all around sucked big time. Shruti is a pretty young face and that is it. Surya is barely fine, but his outrage seemed very shallow, unconvincing. The Chinese guy is probably the one who gave a good performance.

Technically the movie was very good, nice photography, couple of good songs, appropriate costume, etc. It is the direction that sucked big time.

So, overall, IMO, 7m Arivu is a sorry imitation of a Hollywood thriller like Terminator series. Thumbs way down from me.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

always love to hear your counter arguements. quite true your views. but a fan, like moi, would be loyal and fanning, regardless.

just watched velayutham. probably vijay's better movies, actionwise, dialoguewise, humourwise. sheer mindless entertainment. i luv it.

 

[happyhindu]

I feel that there was a sense of dejection when there was totally an anti Brahmin government. And now there is a sense of carefree attitude when there is an harmless government even if its apathy towards the Brahmins is apparent. That may be the reason that only two of us are building this topic. Yes sir. Let us wait till some others of this forum open the 7 m Aarivu.

Dear Sir,

Any form of change is bound to result in anger, dejection, reactionary attitude, etc, in some part atleast. It is natural.

Am not a supporter of DMK. However, am quite dejected to see how JJ is wasting her time trying to undo things which the previous government did (esp the assembly house issue, education issue). It would be so much better if she concentrated in developing infrastructure, industry, resources, etc better.

I do not think there is apathy towards brahmins in daily life anywhere in tamilnadu. These caste issues are limited to specific people in specific circles.

Regards.

 

[NSP]

Am not a supporter of DMK. However, am quite dejected to see how JJ is wasting her time trying to undo things which the previous government did (esp the assembly house issue, education issue). It would be so much better if she concentrated in developing infrastructure, industry, resources, etc better.

I do not think there is apathy towards brahmins in daily life anywhere in tamilnadu. These caste issues are limited to specific people in specific circles.

Good to see someone advocating a radical change getting transformed to oppose change. I am not a supporter of ADMK but I and you would have done the same thing as JJ is doing now. The MK's Secretariate project is not yet complete and it still will consume about Rs600 Crore for completion. Therefore it is only prudent thinking that JJ has considered converting it as a Hospital project and to complete it with just additional Rs50 Crore for the building and another additional Rs250 Crore for the equipments.

Anna Centenary Library is not worth anything for its value. In a way it was becoming one like Valluvar Kottam, particularly the 'own book' section! (Why a library for own book?) Apart the public also flocked in to this Library only for ensuring that their kids spent time in the kids section. The kids section did had good attraction but within months the things got aged and kids then were restricted from enjoying at their will. The other technical sections did had good collection of books but was patronized for the students here do not even frequent the library in their campuses. None of the facilities like digital library, auditorium, am phi theatre etc got commissioned yet. About 200 to 300 newly appointed staff and security were loitering every day in it without any work for the Library still did not got started functioning for public lending. Since this is a brand new library - there is no archive in it and so just resembled a Landmark book store with centralized AC, escalator, lift etc in partial completion and hence the visitor to it got hyped up.

The previous Government had plans to levy Rs100/- as entry fee (they did such thing even for Semmozhi poonga!) and to have exorbitant membership fee as well. The decision got held up because of the election and for the fact that another Rs 30 Crore requirement for its completion.

Removal of Makkal Nala Paniyaalargal is a necessary politics for these people otherwise will create trouble for the newly elected members to Panchayath and Municipality. In fact the Madras High Court itself has asked the State Government as to why the Government is hesitating to remove the TNPSC appointees. Bt the HC also has a double face today

One thing that I know for certain is that the present portfolio in High Court of Madras has not yet digested the fact of JJ's assumption of power. The portfolio is still considered only as very loyal to the old regime here and the Chief is no exception. This is certainly a tough hurdle for JJ, particularly when she is facing harsh Judiciary in Bangalore and in Delhi for her cases. The mischievous old Governor has gone but the new Governor has not exposed himself much.

If you want to do some reform then it is not possible without administrative reforms. That is the reason for daily shuffle of Ministers and officers. Contrary to the belief that JJ decides the change, it is other way round. None of the Ministers awarded the Law portfolio has felt comfortable for the reason of hostility shown on them by top Judges. They desperately volunteer themselves out! The Higher Education Minister is not happy since he is not being allowed to enjoy the hospitality of the Private Educational Institute Barons here. The Ministry Department is entirely managed now by the Higher Education Secretary and the Minister is just getting a sort of orientation of being a good Minister.

But honestly I do not believe that things will continue this way for long. The politics in Tamilnadu is transforming fast back to its treachery and I think MK will do his best for it from now onwards for Kani is now out on bail. 7 Am Arivu?

 

[NSP]

Times Now - Youth debate

The 'Youth Debate' program in Times Now took the Reservation debate and I could see no reason other than 7am Aarivu for the timing of the debate! The movie, though from Sun Group production, has inadvertently allowed a dialogue expressing anti-reservation sentiment! Somehow the Sun Group has managed to dilute it's effect by its abundant publicity stint on the theme of 'Tamizhan'.

The debate also had its piece of Brahmin bashing by an argument stating that the Brahmins ruled the entire India for more than 5000 years by indicating that they were everywhere as Secretarial staff after independence. So .... if Reservation should continue as long as there is discrimination and inequality as per BRA...is it not now the turn of Brahmins to demand reservation for the discrimination they face and the inequality they suffer?

If anyone finds link to the video of this debate...please post it