"ஸ்ரீ''- ஒரு விளக்கம் - Dinamani Velli mani 14-11-2014

[CHANDRU1849]

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1. Freedom is not to be used for abusing or belittling other's faith. Learn this first lesson.

It is hurting, if I say Rama and Krishna are worshippers of Lord Shiva and Nandi is nothing but Vishnu. But, whatabout the depiction of some Kings including Ravana in poor light. It has been going on centuries together. Is it nothurting?

2. You should talk to Valmiki, Kamban, Parasara, Vyasa and ask them to rewrite what they wrote. Try to do that if you can.

Are they still alive? Where are they hiding?

3. That temple was constructed by the masons and labourers under the employ of Sethupathy. Do you know who is Sethupathy? Ask someone who comes to your church to give Qurbani.

Yes. All temples are being constructed by Sthapathis and not by monkeys as in the case of Ramar Bridge. Do you know that?Quarbani relates to Islam. You are unable to come out of it.

4. You are not a smartha nor a brahmin. You are an evangelist who is a trojan who has come here to create rift among brahmins. Better shut up and go to your church.

First of all, I don't want to answer to a Muslim (sorry since you callme a Christian, I have no alternative). Since you are continuously dragging me,I have to retaliate.

5. I am amused. LOL.

Generally, reality will bite but for you it amuses. You arevery different.

6. Where in Valmiki Ramayana or Kamba Ramayana is it said that Rama worshipped Siva at Rameswaram after building a temple?. Being a Evangelist you can go to one of those theological seminaries that dot Tamilnadu, read those books and come back and enlighten us on that. If you have been banned by them for your temperament please inform me here. I have friends(classmates) at the highest level in one of those seminaries. I can make a recommendation Otherwise say Jesus is not your saviour and Bible is not your scripture. Then we will accept you as a ill informed, short tempered, smartha brahmin and try to enlighten you.

Kamba Ramayana is carbon copy of Valmiki Ramayana. Why have you left out Thulasidas Ramayana. Now reality bites you.

 

[JR]

Namaste Sangom sir,

When the Vaishnavite cult started gaining popularity, these terms acquired their present, and popular meanings such as the vaishnavite godheads nārāyaṇa, vāsudeva and viṣṇuḥ which then came to denote Krishna as well!!

Vaishnavam is not a "cult" nor it "started gaining popularity", Vaishnavam has existed all along with Shaivam, infact Rigveda does define Sriman Narayana as "Upendra", the brother of Indra.

Therefore, when a sufficiently learned person like "Periyavaal" said nārāyaṇa, nārāyaṇa, nārāyaṇa, it did not denote the Krishnaite nārāyaṇa but the advaitic Parabrahman to whom a smārta dedicates all his religious acts with the final mantra, "sarvaṃ brahmārpaṇam astu".

JFYI please.

It might be of relevance to note here that once when Kanchi Mahaperiyaval was afflicted with burning fever, he invited certain pandits/vidvaans well-versed in Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam and wanted them to recite the great sloka from morning till night. Then he sweated profusely and his fever subsided. This is one of the recorded incidents in Mahaperiyaval's life and teachings I read somewhere. Even Sri Adi Sankara has sung in the glory of Sri Krishna - the famous Bhaja Govindam. Some Shaivite fanatics argue that Adi Shankara ji's guru's name is Govinda and thus he sang in glory of his guru, but it does not make sense to think of a human guru being the bestower of highest mukti, which is what Sri Adi Sankara implies in singing this famous song. Thus Sri Adi Sankara himself has sung the glory of Sri Vishnu/Krishna.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Namaste Sangom sir,

It might be of relevance to note here that once when Kanchi Mahaperiyaval was afflicted with burning fever, he invited certain pandits/vidvaans well-versed in Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam and wanted them to recite the great sloka from morning till night. Then he sweated profusely and his fever subsided. This is one of the recorded incidents in Mahaperiyaval's life and teachings I read somewhere.

Why are you bringing Mahaperiyaval here? Was he your Acharya? Are your Jeers reciting Vishnu Sahasranamam whenever they are sick?

Mahaperiyaval followed Smartha sampradaya, which recognizes Vishnu also as a God, apart from Shiva, Sakthi, Ganesha, Surya and later Karthikeya. However, it depends on the individual Smartha to decide, who is relevant and who is not. For your convenience, don't bring in the experience of a religious leader who doesn't belong to your sect.

Did Mahaperiyaval advise his devotees to recite Vishnu Sahasranamam whenever they suffer from fever instead of going to hospital?

What will you do if you come across a similar situation? Will you recite Vishnu Sahasranamam till the fever subsides or consult a doctor?

Adi Sankara was a Namboodri. Nobody knows the sect of Namboodris - Shaivite or Vaishnavite.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Why are you bringing Mahaperiyaval here? Was he your Acharya? Are your Jeers reciting Vishnu Sahasranamam whenever they are sick?

Are your Jeers reciting Vishnu Sahasranamam whenever they are sick till it subsides, without any medical attention? (I missed this line)

 

[psnarasimhan]

Why should not all of you read . Sree Naraseemehta's ''VAISHNANA JANATO'' lyric several times to know
full meaning about Vaishnavas and Vaishnavism instead of shouting, barking, braying and making all sort of noises
about '' SREEMAN NARAYANAN'' .

 

[psnarasimhan]

[/SIZE]Are your Jeers reciting Vishnu Sahasranamam whenever they are sick till it subsides, without any medical attention? (I missed this line)

Not only you missed this line but also a lot of precious time in your life sofar. Better you please keep quite and do some PRAYACHITHTHAM for all the sins you have committed so far for degrading ''SREEMAM NARAYANAN''

 

[Vaagmi]

தத்துவமுத்துக்கள் from Chandruji, the trojan Evangelist here:

1.Valmiki, Kamban, Parasara, Vyasa are all hiding somewhere refusing to come before Chandruji as they are scared of what kind of tsunami he will let loose on them.

2. The evangelist Chandruji says qurbani pertains to only Islam. He pretends that he does not know the திருப்பலி (also called qurbani) that is given in every church by the திருச்சபை or individual Xian. And he expects us to believe him so that he can continue with his mission of creating division among the brahmins here. LOL.

3. This "knowledgeable Tamil vidwan" is telling us that Kambaramayanam is a carbon copy of Valmiki Ramayanam. His mentors have not equipped him properly with knowledge about the Hindu epics so that his criticism of brahmins will not lack credibility. An extremely bad job done with naivete by the milk powder gangs.

4. This ignoramus evangelist trojan claims he is a smarta. It is for the smartas now to decide. I had had enough of this nonsense. I am going to ignore this p**t.

 

[sangom]

Namaste Sangom sir,



Vaishnavam is not a "cult" nor it "started gaining popularity", Vaishnavam has existed all along with Shaivam, infact Rigveda does define Sriman Narayana as "Upendra", the brother of Indra.

Smt. JR ji,

Vaishnavam has not existed "all along" just as Saivam has not existed "all along". Both are cults, devoted to a particular deity and other related paraphernalias. But it has become convention for people belonging to (adhering to) a cult to imagine that their chosen 'cult' has existed from the original creation (since most cults also prescribe that it was their cultic godhead who created the world or even the universe, according to situations). In truth even the vedic hindu religion cannot be traced backwards beyond the time of the Rigveda.

Right from the time of the vedas, or even before, when this world was inhabited by primitive humans, there might have been some basic ideas of a power beyond human control and such a feeling could have given rise to some kind of primitive faith and system of worship, etc. It is relevant to note that many primitive hill tribes, even today, believe that their "gods" reside on top of a tall hillock or mountain near their hamlet; they also believe that climbing to the very top of that hill/mountain is sacrilege and an unpardonable sin because Man is not to trespass into gods' territory. The concept of gods residing in high heaven might have sprung from this primitive belief.

I have not come across any reference which says that Vishnu is called as Upendra, in the Rigveda. If you have the details please furnish. In later scriptures, i.e., the Puranas, Vishnu is called as Upendra because, by then Vishnu had become established as one of the ten Adityas who were supposed to have been born to Aditi who is also considered to be Indra's mother. Thus you see, Vishnu who was only a second level deity in the Rigveda got "promoted" because of so many tales created under the umbrella of religion and scriptures, over a period of time. It is relevant to note that the ISIS jehadists also believe in similar scriptural truths, according to their faith and so, if we are also going to unquestioningly trust whatever is doled out by scriptures, we will be no different from those extremists and we will have no grounds to criticize them either!

It might be of relevance to note here that once when Kanchi Mahaperiyaval was afflicted with burning fever, he invited certain pandits/vidvaans well-versed in Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam and wanted them to recite the great sloka from morning till night. Then he sweated profusely and his fever subsided. This is one of the recorded incidents in Mahaperiyaval's life and teachings I read somewhere. Even Sri Adi Sankara has sung in the glory of Sri Krishna - the famous Bhaja Govindam. Some Shaivite fanatics argue that Adi Shankara ji's guru's name is Govinda and thus he sang in glory of his guru, but it does not make sense to think of a human guru being the bestower of highest mukti, which is what Sri Adi Sankara implies in singing this famous song. Thus Sri Adi Sankara himself has sung the glory of Sri Vishnu/Krishna.

There can be many such stories or even some of them may be true. When my first son had severe jaundice at the age of 2 in Kanpur, in 1967, the man who used to bring the pooja flowers (Pookkaaran), an illiterate, UP villager, offered to cure the disease in 5 days and he brought some leaf and holding the leaf bunch in his hand moved it from head to foot many times over the child's body and then used to dip it in a bowl of water which he used to throw out on to the footpath. My son was cured after five days and we got it confirmed by tests prescribed by our allopathic doctor. The poor man refused to take anything more than two-and-a-quarter rupees saying that only that much was allowed to be taken (by whom or what, I don't know.) What that grass was I don't know, but definitely he was murmuring in Dehati (rustic) hindi which I could make out. Does this true account differ in anyway (except that jaundice is definitely more serious than simple fever) from the incident cited by you. And, one more thing, unlike the Kanchi seer, I was somewhat unbelieving when that old man offered to cure the disease of the child.

So, there are many mysterious things in this world and if Vishnu Sahsranamam had to be recited by more than one vidvaan from morning till night to just cure a simple fever, then it (Vishnu Sahsranamam) is nowhere near the dehati hindi mantra of my flower vendor, I will say. Again, as Shri Chandru has asked, will you trust Vishnu Sahsranamam alone, completely, if your child gets fever or will you go to a competent doctor?

Adi Shankara's name has been added on to thousands of stotrams, including Bhajagovindam but it is rather doubtful whether he himself composed the entire Soundarya Lahari. Most probably his disciples and subsequent Peethadhipathis of the four Sankara Mathoms might have composed many of these stotras but, as per convention, put the epilogue as "Shankara Bhagavatpada krita" which will mean that it was created by a disciple of Shankara, the Bhagavan but will also mislead people into believing that it was composed by the original shankara himself! If one goes through Shankara's major works it will be difficult to believe that he could advocate so much of bhakti when, in other works, he emphasizes the jnana marga and clearly states that samkhya or yoga will never lead one to Realization. Hence Bhajagovindam, in my view, could very well have been a clever attempt by someone who wanted the imprimatur of Shankara on Vaishnavam so that smarthas also follow it. (You see, there were times when the Vaishnavites and non-vaishnavites were feuding and even killing each other out of enmity.)

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Not only you missed this line but also a lot of precious time in your life sofar. Better you please keep quite and do some PRAYACHITHTHAM for all the sins you have committed so far for degrading ''SREEMAM NARAYANAN''

I can repeat the same sentence with slight modification for you to decide; instead of 'SREEMAM NARAYANAN', 'LORD SHIVA'.

 

[psnarasimhan]

I can repeat the same sentence with slight modification for you to decide; instead of 'SREEMAM NARAYANAN', 'LORD SHIVA'.

Wisemen like me and others speak because we have someting to say, but persons like you and others speak because you have to say
something. No modification can do anything for you.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

but f**ls like you and others speak because you have to say
something.

Don't use unparlimentary words. I don't want to throw stone in a drainage.

 

[JR]

Why are you bringing Mahaperiyaval here? Was he your Acharya? Are your Jeers reciting Vishnu Sahasranamam whenever they are sick?

Mahaperiyaval followed Smartha sampradaya, which recognizes Vishnu also as a God, apart from Shiva, Sakthi, Ganesha, Surya and later Karthikeya. However, it depends on the individual Smartha to decide, who is relevant and who is not. For your convenience, don't bring in the experience of a religious leader who doesn't belong to your sect.

Did Mahaperiyaval advise his devotees to recite Vishnu Sahasranamam whenever they suffer from fever instead of going to hospital?

What will you do if you come across a similar situation? Will you recite Vishnu Sahasranamam till the fever subsides or consult a doctor?

Adi Sankara was a Namboodri. Nobody knows the sect of Namboodris - Shaivite or Vaishnavite.

And why should I NOT bring in the experience of a religious leader if he is not "in my sect"? Are you some kind of authority who decides who can and who cannot be quoted by members in Tamil Brahmins forum?

I have as much right to bring in Mahaperiyaval's experience, much more than you have a right to question OUR GODS - namely Lakshmi, Anjaneya, Sri Vishnu and so forth. Atleast I am quoting Mahaperiyavar with REVERENCE.

I brought in Mahaperiyaval's experience with VS because Sangom ji said Mahaperiyavar's calling of the name Sriman Narayana referred to some Advaitic parabrahman and not Sri Vishnu. So I showed that this is not the case, as Mahaperiyavar ALSO reverred Sri Vishnu by having VS recited when he was down with fever.

 

[JR]

Smt. JR ji,

Vaishnavam has not existed "all along" just as Saivam has not existed "all along". Both are cults, devoted to a particular deity and other related paraphernalias. But it has become convention for people belonging to (adhering to) a cult to imagine that their chosen 'cult' has existed from the original creation (since most cults also prescribe that it was their cultic godhead who created the world or even the universe, according to situations). In truth even the vedic hindu religion cannot be traced backwards beyond the time of the Rigveda.

Right from the time of the vedas, or even before, when this world was inhabited by primitive humans, there might have been some basic ideas of a power beyond human control and such a feeling could have given rise to some kind of primitive faith and system of worship, etc. It is relevant to note that many primitive hill tribes, even today, believe that their "gods" reside on top of a tall hillock or mountain near their hamlet; they also believe that climbing to the very top of that hill/mountain is sacrilege and an unpardonable sin because Man is not to trespass into gods' territory. The concept of gods residing in high heaven might have sprung from this primitive belief.

I have not come across any reference which says that Vishnu is called as Upendra, in the Rigveda. If you have the details please furnish. In later scriptures, i.e., the Puranas, Vishnu is called as Upendra because, by then Vishnu had become established as one of the ten Adityas who were supposed to have been born to Aditi who is also considered to be Indra's mother. Thus you see, Vishnu who was only a second level deity in the Rigveda got "promoted" because of so many tales created under the umbrella of religion and scriptures, over a period of time. It is relevant to note that the ISIS jehadists also believe in similar scriptural truths, according to their faith and so, if we are also going to unquestioningly trust whatever is doled out by scriptures, we will be no different from those extremists and we will have no grounds to criticize them either!

Namaste Sir,

Here you find some references for Sriman Narayana in the Vedas:

tadviShNoH paramaM padam || (Rgveda 1.22.20, kaThopaniShad 3.9)
(The highest is the abode of Vishnu)

agnirvai devAnAmavamo viShNuH paramaH | tadantarA sarvA devatAH || (aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1)
(Among gods, Agni, the fire-god is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest. In between come all other gods.)

viShNurdevAnAMshreShTaH || (shatapatha brAhmaNa 14.1.1.5)

viShNumukhA vai devAH || (taittirIyasaMhitA 5.2.1.1)
(Gods have Vishnu, indeed, as their leader.)

agnirmukhaM prathamo devatAnAM saNgatAnAmuttamo viShNurAsIt || (taitarrIya brAhmaNa 2.4.3.3)
(In the communion of gods, Agni was the first and Vishnu was the highest.)

viṣṇornu kaṃ vīryāṇi pra vocaṃ yaḥ pārthivāni vimamerajāṃsi |
yo askabhāyaduttaraṃ sadhasthaṃ vicakramāṇastredhorughāyaḥ ||
pra tad viṣṇu stavate vīryeṇa mṛgho na bhīmaḥ kucaro ghiriṣṭhāḥ |
yasyoruṣu triṣu vikramaṇeṣvadhikṣiyanti bhuvanāni viśvā ||
pra viṣṇave śūṣametu manma ghirikṣita urughāyāya vṛṣṇe |
ya idaṃ dīrghaṃ prayataṃ sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiḥ ||
yasya trī pūrṇā madhunā padānyakṣīyamāṇā svadhayāmadanti |
ya u tridhātu pṛtivīmuta dyāmeko dādhāra bhuvanāni viśvā ||
tadasya priyamabhi pātho aśyāṃ naro yatra devayavo madanti |
urukramasya sa hi bandhuritthā viṣṇoḥ pade parame madhva utsaḥ ||
tā vaṃ vāstūnyuśmasi ghamadhyai yatra ghāvo bhūriśṛṅghāayāsaḥ |
atrāha tadurughāyasya vṛṣṇaḥ paramaṃ padamava bhāti bhūri ||

1. I WILL declare the mighty deeds of Viṣṇu, of him who measured out the earthly regions,
Who propped the highest place of congregation, thrice setting down his footstep, widely striding.
2 For this his mighty deed is Viṣṇu lauded, like some wild beast, dread, prowling, mountain-roaming;
He within whose three wide-extended paces all living creatures have their habitation.
3 Let the hymn lift itself as strength to Viṣṇu, the Bull far-striding, dwelling on the mountains,
Him who alone with triple step hath measured this common dwelling-place, long, far extended.
4 Him whose three places that are filled with sweetness, imperishable, joy as it may list them,
Who verily alone upholds the threefold, the earth, the heaven, and all living creatures.
5 May I attain to that his well-loved mansion where men devoted to the Gods are happy.
For there springs, close akin to the Wide-Strider, the well of meath in Viṣṇu's highest footstep.
6 Fain would we go unto your dwelling-places where there are many-horned and nimble oxen,
For mightily, there, shineth down upon us the widely-striding Bull's sublimest mansion.

Some scholars (N. Shanbhag, S.M. Srinivasa Chari) point out that the references to three strides covering heaven, earth, etc are not a reference to the Vaamana-avataara, but rather to Vishnu's all-pervasiveness. That all beings dwell in His three footsteps, and that He upholds all these worlds - these are all attributes consistent with a supreme deity as opposed to a minor deity with limited influence.
__________________

Rg veda 1.156.1-5

bhavā mitro na śevyo ghṛtāsutirvibhūtadyumna evayā u saprathāḥ |
adhā te viṣṇo viduṣā cidardhya stomo yaj�aścarādhyo haviṣmatā ||
yaḥ pūrvyāya vedhase navīyase sumajjānaye viṣṇave dadāśati |
yo jātamasya mahato mahi bravat sedu śravobhiryujyaṃ cidabhyasat ||
tamu stotāraḥ pūrvyaṃ yathā vida ṛtasya gharbhaṃ januṣāpipartana |
āsya jānanto nāma cid vivaktana mahaste viṣṇo sumatiṃ bhajāmahe ||
tamasya rājā varuṇastamaśvinā kratuṃ sacanta mārutasya vedhasaḥ |
dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute ||
ā yo vivāya sacathāya daivya indrāya viṣṇuḥ sukṛte sukṛttaraḥ |
vedhā ajinvat triṣadhastha āryaṃ ṛtasya bhāghe yajamānamābhajat ||

1. FAR-SHINING, widely famed, going thy wonted way, fed with the oil, be helpful. Mitra-like, to us.
So, Viṣṇu, e’en the wise must swell thy song of praise, and he who hath oblations pay thee solemn rites.
2 He who brings gifts to him the Ancient and the Last, to Viṣṇu who ordains, together with his Spouse,
Who tells the lofty birth of him the Lofty One, shall verily surpass in glory e’en his peer.
3 Him have ye satisfied, singers, as well as ye know, primeval germ of Order even from his birth.
Ye, knowing e’en his name, have told it forth: may we, Viṣṇu, enjoy the grace of thee the Mighty One.
4 The Sovran Varuṇa and both the Aśvins wait on this the will of him who guides the Marut host.
Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day, and with his Friend unbars the stable of the kine.
5 Even he the Heavenly One who came for fellowship, Viṣṇu to Indra, godly to the godlier,
Who Maker, throned in three worlds, helps the Āryan man, and gives the worshipper his share of Holy Law.

Here, it is the attributes of being the most Ancient and the Last, and also of having Supreme Power, are particularly significant.

Please see more at: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10504

 

[psnarasimhan]

Don't use unparlimentary words. I don't want to throw stone in a drainage.

Dear Mr.Chandru,
I am very sorry. Now I have removed that offending word by replacing with asoft word. Hope you will find this OK.Regards.PSN.

 

[sarang]

Because most of us refer to valmiki and kamba ramayana. Many north indians do parayana of tulsiramayana every year.

What have you found in Tulsi Ramayana to support your case. I have a copy of tulsi ramayana, and will check to validate your views.

Kamba Ramayana is carbon copy of Valmiki Ramayana. Why have you left out Thulasidas Ramayana. Now reality bites you.

 

[VMSGEN]

Let peace prevail everywhere...

Actually Siva is Neelakantan - blue throated and the Vishnu is Blue - Neelameka Syama, who is also called as Mayon - the authority of Maayaa. The Mayon is on water, and the water is everything in the creation ( aapo vaa itahum sarvam viswaan bhootan apaha, praana apaha, pasava aapaha, amrutam aapaha anna apaha...etc...)The water is refered to as 'Sri' because of this reason and this is Satyam. Actually during the time of death it is Kapam (water) in Kantam which causes the death. The supreme Atman is along with Maya (Guna rahitha) when descends is called as Narayana - nara ayana - travel as nara, avataram - meaning coming downword. When everything you see is just a different form of water then howcome u hate/hurt something/someone. It is as good as hating our own self. People here aimed at salvation please do not hurt anyone it will not do any good to you, me, our Sanata dharmam and to the whole world. When everything is Aapaha - where is the question of ignoring, belittling the god of Apaha - Vishnu.

Coming back to someones query on Paramacharyaas recital of Narayana, narayana, narayan - actually that is how we should do, we all shoud do. The name that can be called out is always Narayana. Govinda etc. because in this way only we know the thread to reach beyond the Kantam, and what is beyond Kantam can not be perceived within the ambit of Kantam, that is the reason we all should worshit and call out the name of Hari and live in according to Dharma - again Dharmam is the path given by the very same god of Water (Vishnu) where he gives the path to purify ourselves from decaying.

And Siva is the one with Blue Kantam, meaning the maya - water is at his throat, as I mentioned earlier the water is wealth when u want to be in the cycle of birth and death, if we want to come out of it, then we need to go beyond water, beyond Kantam (kantaththilirundhu thappavendum) on that time the same water(maya) is a bondage. Therefore this water is both amruth and poison.

Coming back to why not to chant Siva name loudly - Siva is KalaKalan - the only one who reached beyond kantam, who won over death - so his name need to be meditated upon (Ponnana mantiram pugalavum onnaadhu - Thirumanthiram)
Actually all brahmins should be pursuing penance meditate on Siva for his own personal salvation and recite the name of hari loudly for dharmam to prevail upon the world and hence to bestow happiness to all the living and non-living beings in the world. But later the brahmin community got into the cluster of desires and lust and gaveup renunciation and selfless living and started pursuing wealth due to Kali yuga dharma. There are very many secret information but as I myself is just a beginner, do not know if I can share all these things openly which I learn in my pursuit. I am just giving these information as there are some serious seekers it may serve as a sparkle to ignite their search. I will stop sharing when things start looking disturbing my path and search. There is no two gods - only one, and for all queries God will give answer in our heart if we are really very searious about it. There is no use in showcasing, what it will serve, after all everyone will die at somepoint. This being the case we should be open and keep learning and be available for wisdom to happen to us.

sorry if I have hurt anyone, which is not my intention.

 

[sangom]

Namaste Sir,

Here you find some references for Sriman Narayana in the Vedas:

tadviShNoH paramaM padam || (Rgveda 1.22.20, kaThopaniShad 3.9)
(The highest is the abode of Vishnu)

agnirvai devAnAmavamo viShNuH paramaH | tadantarA sarvA devatAH || (aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1)
(Among gods, Agni, the fire-god is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest. In between come all other gods.)

viShNurdevAnAMshreShTaH || (shatapatha brAhmaNa 14.1.1.5)

viShNumukhA vai devAH || (taittirIyasaMhitA 5.2.1.1)
(Gods have Vishnu, indeed, as their leader.)

agnirmukhaM prathamo devatAnAM saNgatAnAmuttamo viShNurAsIt || (taitarrIya brAhmaNa 2.4.3.3)
(In the communion of gods, Agni was the first and Vishnu was the highest.)

viṣṇornu kaṃ vīryāṇi pra vocaṃ yaḥ pārthivāni vimamerajāṃsi |
yo askabhāyaduttaraṃ sadhasthaṃ vicakramāṇastredhorughāyaḥ ||
pra tad viṣṇu stavate vīryeṇa mṛgho na bhīmaḥ kucaro ghiriṣṭhāḥ |
yasyoruṣu triṣu vikramaṇeṣvadhikṣiyanti bhuvanāni viśvā ||
pra viṣṇave śūṣametu manma ghirikṣita urughāyāya vṛṣṇe |
ya idaṃ dīrghaṃ prayataṃ sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiḥ ||
yasya trī pūrṇā madhunā padānyakṣīyamāṇā svadhayāmadanti |
ya u tridhātu pṛtivīmuta dyāmeko dādhāra bhuvanāni viśvā ||
tadasya priyamabhi pātho aśyāṃ naro yatra devayavo madanti |
urukramasya sa hi bandhuritthā viṣṇoḥ pade parame madhva utsaḥ ||
tā vaṃ vāstūnyuśmasi ghamadhyai yatra ghāvo bhūriśṛṅghāayāsaḥ |
atrāha tadurughāyasya vṛṣṇaḥ paramaṃ padamava bhāti bhūri ||

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Rg veda 1.156.1-5

bhavā mitro na śevyo ghṛtāsutirvibhūtadyumna evayā u saprathāḥ |
adhā te viṣṇo viduṣā cidardhya stomo yaj�aścarādhyo haviṣmatā ||
yaḥ pūrvyāya vedhase navīyase sumajjānaye viṣṇave dadāśati |
yo jātamasya mahato mahi bravat sedu śravobhiryujyaṃ cidabhyasat ||
tamu stotāraḥ pūrvyaṃ yathā vida ṛtasya gharbhaṃ januṣāpipartana |
āsya jānanto nāma cid vivaktana mahaste viṣṇo sumatiṃ bhajāmahe ||
tamasya rājā varuṇastamaśvinā kratuṃ sacanta mārutasya vedhasaḥ |
dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute ||
ā yo vivāya sacathāya daivya indrāya viṣṇuḥ sukṛte sukṛttaraḥ |
vedhā ajinvat triṣadhastha āryaṃ ṛtasya bhāghe yajamānamābhajat ||

1. FAR-SHINING, widely famed, going thy wonted way, fed with the oil, be helpful. Mitra-like, to us.
So, Viṣṇu, e’en the wise must swell thy song of praise, and he who hath oblations pay thee solemn rites.
2 He who brings gifts to him the Ancient and the Last, to Viṣṇu who ordains, together with his Spouse,
Who tells the lofty birth of him the Lofty One, shall verily surpass in glory e’en his peer.
3 Him have ye satisfied, singers, as well as ye know, primeval germ of Order even from his birth.
Ye, knowing e’en his name, have told it forth: may we, Viṣṇu, enjoy the grace of thee the Mighty One.
4 The Sovran Varuṇa and both the Aśvins wait on this the will of him who guides the Marut host.
Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day, and with his Friend unbars the stable of the kine.
5 Even he the Heavenly One who came for fellowship, Viṣṇu to Indra, godly to the godlier,
Who Maker, throned in three worlds, helps the Āryan man, and gives the worshipper his share of Holy Law.

Here, it is the attributes of being the most Ancient and the Last, and also of having Supreme Power, are particularly significant.

Please see more at: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10504

Smt. JR ji,

I have gone through your rather lengthy post as also the web page given, but, to the best of my capacity (and the 'find' feature of Mozilla Firefox, there does not appear to be the word Upendra. Kindly confirm.

In rigveda, vishnu is described in such a way that he (vishnu) comes out more as the sun-god rather than as the four-armed (śaṅkha, cakra, gadā, padma) god narayana of vaishnavam. The rigvedic vishnu is of great strides (urugaaya, urukrama). But, the later brahmanas this same vishnu has been made into a dwarf and stories have been spun out which persist, like the vamana avatara, etc. Shatapatha brahmana I.2.5 goes further and makes the dwarf vishhnu into a sacrificial object! One possible reason for this is further projecting the rigvedic vishnu (a.k.a. sun god) into a mythical person so that vishnu and the vasudeva/bhagavatha cult could be identified, as one, slowly.

In RV VII.100. 5 & 6, the rishi says—

5. I proclaim today, O sipivishta, this name of yours, the great lord (AryaH) whom I know accurately; I, the weak one, praise you, the strong who sits on the throne beyond this world.

6. What was there to be blamed, O vishnu, when you proclaimed yourself "I am Sipivishta"? Do not conceal your form from us when you have appeared in the fight in another form.

The fact that vishnu-saga in the rigveda includes his (vishnu's) fixing up prithvi (the earth) with pegs, especially its eastern end (RV VII.99.2), as also rendering "the earth firm by pegs on all sides" (RV I. 154. 1) further support the sun-god vishnu.

The rishi of rigveda expresses his thanks to vishnu for having "spread out the worlds for us to live". For Manu who was troubled by the asuras, he traversed the earthly spaces thrice (VI. 49. 13).

Rigvedic vishnu's most referred adventure is to a wide-traversing deity who travelled across the earthly spaces thrice in order to help a suffering manu and make his living place safe. It is highly probable that the reference is actually to one piece of land on this earth or else it might be to three successive day-times over which the sun-god would have traversed the earth from east to west, thrice. (The idea of earth's rotation causing day & night was obviously not known to the rigvedic people; that is why we find in the shatapatha brahmana, the fanciful story of a group of asuras called "mandehas" attacking and conquering the sun every evening and taking him to the pAtALa lOka and the sun again getting freed/released from fetters, in the next morning simply because the arghyams offered by brahmanas during their morning sandhyavandanam turn into vajrayudha and attack & defeat (temporarily) those asuras! (Why the evening arghyams go waste is not clear!!)

I therefore feel that trying to establish an antiquity for vaishnava cultic belief by merely citing verses containing the name vishnu from rigveda or other scriptures, as seen from the url furnished by you, only reveals a great urge to somehow establish vaishnavam as some sort of an ancient 'religion' like the vedic hinduism when, in fact, the reality is that vaishnavam is a cult (a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false ; an interest followed with exaggerated zeal by a small, loyal group, etc.), a splinter-group of the main-line hinduism of the smartas. It is also relevant to consider why the branding ceremony is prevalent among the vaishnavas although I am told that one sub-sect (is it pancharatrikas?) do not approve of such a branding ceremony; it looks to an outsider to be an extreme effort to keep the flock together, just as the christians do a tattoo of the cross on those who are converted and baptized. All these characteristics lead to the conclusion that vaishnavam is just a cult only.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Interesting reply. As for Sandhya Vandanam, this must have been introduced by the Vaishnavites, may be very recently to perpetrate their ideology of many gods.

 

[renuka]

After reading many posts here I cant help picturizing 2 kids fighting 'My Papa is stronger than your Papa" and this song came to my mind:

There are those who see but not the signs of God
See the work of man - not the work of God
Look around and recognize the Lord
The beauty of nature is the work of God

There are those who hear but not the voice of God
Hear the sounds of man - not the sounds of God
Listen well and hear the voice of God
The sounds of nature are the songs of God

What a waste..that men prefer to fight in the name of God whether its Shiva or Vishnu and miss the whole picture.

 

[sangom]

After reading many posts here I cant help picturizing 2 kids fighting 'My Papa is stronger than your Papa" and this song came to my mind:




What a waste..that men prefer to fight in the name of God whether its Shiva or Vishnu and miss the whole picture.

Smt. Renuka,

I feel you have not read the posts carefully. There is no fight here, first of all, and the issue is also not whether Shiva or Vishnu is the god, AFAI am concerned; for me - sangom, personally - both Shiva and Vishnu are creations of fertile brahmin brains, but since everything is, ultimately, one reality (advaitam) even rambo can be god.

And the posts here are not any waste if compared to so many frivolous posts made in ever so many other threads.

The issue here is whether rigvedic vishnu, narayana of the vaishnavites and krishna have been depicted as one and the same, right from the beginning of our (hindu) religion, or, whether, along with the rise in popularity of vaishnavam, krishna became equated with narayana and the rigvedic vishnu through creation of new scriptures such as harivamsam, bhagavatham, gita (most of which is considered by scholars to be later additions to a core chapter), the mahanarayanopanishad, etc., etc.

 

[mkrishna100]

afai am concerned; for me - sangom, personally - both shiva and vishnu are creations of fertile brahmin brains, but since everything is, ultimately, one reality (advaitam) even rambo can be god.

lol

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renuka,

I feel you have not read the posts carefully. There is no fight here, first of all, and the issue is also not whether Shiva or Vishnu is the god, AFAI am concerned; for me - sangom, personally - both Shiva and Vishnu are creations of fertile brahmin brains, but since everything is, ultimately, one reality (advaitam) even rambo can be god.

And the posts here are not any waste if compared to so many frivolous posts made in ever so many other threads.

The issue here is whether rigvedic vishnu, narayana of the vaishnavites and krishna have been depicted as one and the same, right from the beginning of our (hindu) religion, or, whether, along with the rise in popularity of vaishnavam, krishna became equated with narayana and the rigvedic vishnu through creation of new scriptures such as harivamsam, bhagavatham, gita (most of which is considered by scholars to be later additions to a core chapter), the mahanarayanopanishad, etc., etc.

Dear Sangom ji,

I read all 5 pages before I posted.

You are talking about the flow of the thread that is as you correctly said "The issue here is whether rigvedic vishnu, narayana of the vaishnavites and krishna have been depicted as one and the same, right from the beginning of our (hindu) religion, or etc etc"


I am talking about the under current of the thread..that it is still very much whose Papa is stronger..and now since you brought in Rambo it solves the problem..Rambo is the strongest of all!LOL

 

[JR]

I feel you have not read the posts carefully. There is no fight here, first of all, and the issue is also not whether Shiva or Vishnu is the god, AFAI am concerned; for me - sangom, personally - both Shiva and Vishnu are creations of fertile brahmin brains, but since everything is, ultimately, one reality (advaitam) even rambo can be god.

Namaste Sri Sangom ji,

Although the above message wasn't addressed to me, owing to the fact that your message spreads atheism as posted here and elsewhere (in the Prapatti Dharma thread), I would like to state the following -

I have had many visions of Sri Rama, I have heard his voice several times speaking to me as an 'Asariri' in real life, I have had vision of one of my past births. Owing to these factors, I KNOW FOR SURE that god is NOT a creation of the mankind. Anyone might doubt my saying here, but I can promise on the very same god that what I am saying IS THE TRUTH. I believe that my recitation of Sriman Narayana's Ashtakshari for 1 full year followed by my daily sadhana has yielded these results. So I rather pity anyone who does not believe in god and calls faith in god as 'creation of mankind', etc. I really wish they be blessed with the same supernatural gifts that I have been gifted with, to make them realize the truth one day!

 

[renuka]

I have had many visions of Sri Rama, I have heard his voice several times speaking to me as an 'Asariri' in real life, I have had vision of one of my past births. Owing to these factors, I KNOW FOR SURE that god is NOT a creation of the mankind. Anyone might doubt my saying here, but I can promise on the very same god that what I am saying IS THE TRUTH. I believe that my recitation of Sriman Narayana's Ashtakshari for 1 full year followed by my daily sadhana has yielded these results. So I rather pity anyone who does not believe in god and calls faith in god as 'creation of mankind', etc. I really wish they be blessed with the same supernatural gifts that I have been gifted with, to make them realize the truth one day!

Dear JR,

Again we share something in common..I too have had visions of many kinds and some were also helpful in my life.

I have also had visions of 'divine" entities I never knew existed in such a form ..so that proves that not everything is imagined.

But whatever said and done do not ever feel its a privilege and we are extra special than others who do not get such visions. For all you know its people like us who need the most 'correction' hence we get such visions.

I have been doing some thinking off late on why visions come to me since childhood and to a great extent I feel that at times what we feel is a divine gift could be our greatest downfall if we get carried away by it.

Any vision is a projection and as long as it exists it shows that we are still very much mind bound...a very very very long way to go still!

So do not ever feel extra special..this feeling of extra special puts us at risk of feeding our ego and the fall you and I might get if we get carried away will be hard to imagine.

So just enjoy the visions we get and do not get attached to it and watch it finally disappear as how it is meant to be.

Remember its nothing extra special..its just a variant. But nevertheless our risk for delusion is higher than the rest of the population..so its finally poor me and poor you.

 

[sangom]

Dear JR,

Again we share something in common..I too have had visions of many kinds and some were also helpful in my life.

I have also had visions of 'divine" entities I never knew existed in such a form ..so that proves that not everything is imagined.

But whatever said and done do not ever feel its a privilege and we are extra special than others who do not get such visions. For all you know its people like us who need the most 'correction' hence we get such visions.

I have been doing some thinking off late on why visions come to me since childhood and to a great extent I feel that at times what we feel is a divine gift could be our greatest downfall if we get carried away by it.

Any vision is a projection and as long as it exists it shows that we are still very much mind bound...a very very very long way to go still!

So do not ever feel extra special..this feeling of extra special puts us at risk of feeding our ego and the fall you and I might get if we get carried away will be hard to imagine.

So just enjoy the visions we get and do not get attached to it and watch it finally disappear as how it is meant to be.

Remember its nothing extra special..its just a variant. But nevertheless our risk for delusion is higher than the rest of the population..so its finally poor me and poor you.

Smt. JR and Smt. Renuka,

I have come across more than one case of people who (imagined - according to me - but, according to those concerned persons) had actual, indubitable "visions" of not only one god but many, like rama, krishna, siva, ganapathy and so on. One case of a bank official became rather sad; he would not be able to count the cash (notes) properly because one (or more) of these 'gods' used to give darshan suddenly and he would end up making overpayments which will be caught in the evening. He barely escaped dismissal from service because he continued (as a clerk) in the same city and his superiors were kinder to him (than those gods) and only the loss to the bank was always made good from his salary or terminal benefits like PF payable to him. For a long time he as well as his wife & children swore (in the name of god/s) that he was not a psychiatric case and that it was only his ardent bhakti, etc. but at long last, a stage came when the disturbance by these gods became so much that the poor fellow became a serious case of insomnia and psychiatric treatment had to be taken. The said person retired from service and expired two months back, a serious psychiatric case which could not be completely cured.

I have seen more such "bhakti paithiyam" cases during my life time and have even seen some people who had been very normal persons tending to become similar 'cases' towards their last days and saying that they saw one god or another in their room who talked, made signs, etc. I guess it arises in such cases out of extreme fear of death which is a topic not discussed even in this forum so far, I think.

Knowing you both as very polite and polished ladies from your various posts in this forum, I can only wish sincerely that your hallucination-like experiences do not take you down the hill as age increases.

Last but not the least, I am not an atheist but my criticism of the so-called bhakti may appear to you like atheism. I can understand. My only submission is that this "bhakti" is not a very good thing. It needs to be replaced by a kind of peaceful coexistence of man and god, in the spirit of 'live and let live'. Humans or animals or anything in this universe is not a slave of any god, not the least any god with human or half-human characteristics.