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எங்கே Sri Vaishnavam

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Dear HH:

Greetings!

Just imagine what a symbolic effect there would have been if heads of Brahmin institutions came out in favor of admitting the Dalits in question. It would have been dramatic and sensational, whether the upper caste NB's listened or not.

Initially there would be lot of derision and suspicion. But, if consistency is shown over a period of time there will be appreciation.

Rising above caste system is a good on its own. What others do or how others react is secondary.


Cheers!

Dear Sri Nara Ji,

I think it would be great to do, but I also think that the political might may twist this to make the brahmin community a laughing stock before others.

They may even try to ask us if we are open to embrace Dalits in our streat, culture, and treat like brothers. Even they may challenge us to have marriage relationship with them - all indirectly. It can not be done as we are having very different day to day living.

Its a ruthless politics out there. So, it has to be done meticulously. We support this action, look forward to such opportunities, and let this be confined for the matter of equal rights.

Regards
 
Hello Hariharan, Greetings!

I respectfully beg to differ.

From what I have seen of your posts I know it is not even in your bones to be disrespectful. But, even if you differ disrespectfully I know I will enjoy a conversation with you. (My children will kill me if they see me this sappy.)

I have often seen you end your missive with the rider 'Enge Srivaishnavam' ?

:) just a clever/stupid take on Cho's Enge Brahmanan.


I want to say this to you. The lost glory (if at all it has been lost, i would add here quickly) cannot be brought back or the glory resurrected without the OBCs realizing the fact that they ARE the road block in the emancipation of dalits.

I agree with the general thrust of your post. There are lots of external forces that encourage the continuation of caste identity. We must first try for caste-discrimination-free society. All of this make perfect sense to me.

I also feel that each individual B or NB can and should throw away caste feelings and caste identity in their own personal lives not expecting any return from the external world. Doing this is its own reward. I am sure you have heard of the Tamil verse,

யாதும் ஊரே யாவரும் கேளீர்
தீதும் நன்றும் பிறர் தர வாரா

If we predicate positive change upon government sops, that would seem quite uncomfortably close to what some say as the world's oldest profession.

Cheers!
 
Hello Shri PV Raman:

They may even try to ask us if we are open to embrace Dalits in our streat, culture, and treat like brothers.


I think this will be wonderful.

I agree with you, there are other consequences that may follow from such a show of support to Dalits. Changes that are wildly unpalatable will become necessary if the charge of hypocrisy is to be avoided.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shri Raju, Greetings!

It seems from your responses that you are probably missing my whole point. I am not attempting to advocate my personal views, they are infinitely more radical. Wherever I expressed my view I have done so with full disclosure. So the charge that I am misrepresenting Azhvar or SPP is not valid.

My motivation behind this series of posts is to show that the practices of present day Sri Vaishanavas do not comport with even the limited vision of egalitarianism Azhvars and great commentators proposed, and to encourage everyone, and Sri Vaishnavas in particular, to try to live up to that vision.

Peace!
 
Hello Shri PV Raman:




I think this will be wonderful.

I agree with you, there are other consequences that may follow from such a show of support to Dalits. Changes that are wildly unpalatable will become necessary if the charge of hypocrisy is to be avoided.

Cheers!
Dear Shri Nara Ji

It may not be that wonderful, because I have experience similar to the one above in our Srirangam house.

When we bought the house, there was a open space opposite to our house which was later occupied by few of the dalit families. It started with few flimsy huts which later on became their permanent houses. Nobody objected. We are seeing every night, quarrels among their family members (after fully loaded with sarayam) and all the kids used the open space as toilets. The men would use the street as their bed room.

So, without changing theirs or ours day to day living style, it may not be possible to co-exist with Peace.

Kindly inform me, what could be the solution for the above circumstances, which may be a norm once we started to embrace Dalits.

Cheers
 
When we bought the house, there was a open space opposite to our house which was later occupied by few of the dalit families.

Oh, you are describing poverty and lack of education, I am against that just like you are.


Kindly inform me, what could be the solution for the above circumstances, which may be a norm once we started to embrace Dalits.

I don't understand this. Are you saying if Brahmins treat the slum dwelling dalits with respect then B's also will start behaving in an uncouth manner like them and that will become a norm?

Also, even with a casual look around, you will find lots of Dalits who are well educated with sharp minds who will give you a run for your money with intellectual and thought provoking debate.
 
Dear Nara,

Dear HH:

Greetings!

Just imagine what a symbolic effect there would have been if heads of Brahmin institutions came out in favor of admitting the Dalits in question. It would have been dramatic and sensational, whether the upper caste NB's listened or not.

:) yes it cud have been dramatic and sensational. Politics is dangerous. But without people support, politicians cannot do anything (we are spineless in matters of corruption, so i wonder how many of us are bold enuf to stand up against the politicisation of religion). In any case getting people support is the key i suppose.

Only wish the mutt heads did something atleast to address social issues now atleast. And if they do make some changes, one can only hope that everyone in general will hopefully follow them. And ofcourse i think it will apply to rural areas. Casteism does not seem to exist in urban areas.


A question sir: Can the dharmashastras be amended ? i mean even in Gautama smrithi (supposedly the older set of smrithis), interpolations are considered to exist: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/gautamaintro.asp

We will never know if Gautama himself wrote all of the stuff in his smrithi. As the palm leaves got old, the content kept getting copied on to new palm leaves. The scribes might have well added in interpolations, esp after the kingdoms got weak (the interpolations or self-contradictory stuff supposedly stand out pretty well). Same goes for Manusmrithi and others.

I found it ridiculous to think that brahmins tried to convert and pass off the british as kshatriyas as well, just to get things fitted into the varna scheme of things (source: questioning ramayanas by paula richman).

Plus there is conflict b/w each of the dharmasutras (eg: gautama considers brahmins who live by the bow as defiled, and possibly as outcastes, whereas Baudhayana allows brahmins to move over to the profession of warriorhood). The jurisdiction of each of the smrithis might have extended to different territories or might have been practiced as the law under different kingdoms in different time periods.

I know all of this is archaic and not applicable so many centuries later in the present times when everyone has possibly moved into as well as quit every kind of occupation. But then these are seen as weak links in hinduism, and are used as convenient tools to whip up casteist feelings by various quarters, esp as that which wud warrant conversion as an escape from it (ofcourse by missionaries). So can amendments coming from mutt heads in the dharmashastras help matters?



Initially there would be lot of derision and suspicion. But, if consistency is shown over a period of time there will be appreciation.

Rising above caste system is a good on its own. What others do or how others react is secondary.

I will share with you and the forum what little I know. I invite others like Shri Raju and Shri tvvaradan also to contribute.

Thankyou sir.

Cheers!
 
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Please read the following article

'Kanchi Acharya first pontiff to mingle with Dalits'

Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal has mingled with daliths without any hesitation before his arrest.

But he was put behind bars. It is a question of time, the courts are going to clear him of all the charges.

Whatever is being discussed here today has already been implemented by him long back.

Politics in Tamilnadu is a murky and useless. Better not to talk about it

All the best
 
Sri Jayendra Swami not only mingled with dalits but also wanted to extend education schemes to them.

Not everyone liked it. Adverse comments were made by the orthodoxy sections.

Am certain that Sri Jayendra Swami will be acquitted. It is apparent the case is a foisted one by vested political interests. And the case, i suppose, is linked to political ppl who possibly want control of the mutt's finances.

But hopefully that should have nothing to do with religious reforms. Imho, He is the best hope.
 
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Dear Shri Raju, Greetings!

It seems from your responses that you are probably missing my whole point. I am not attempting to advocate my personal views, they are infinitely more radical. Wherever I expressed my view I have done so with full disclosure. So the charge that I am misrepresenting Azhvar or SPP is not valid.

My motivation behind this series of posts is to show that the practices of present day Sri Vaishanavas do not comport with even the limited vision of egalitarianism Azhvars and great commentators proposed, and to encourage everyone, and Sri Vaishnavas in particular, to try to live up to that vision.

Peace!
Dear Mr. Narayanan,
I think we are back in square 1. I have understood your view point.There is no problem. When you are saying you are not advocating your view points I do not understand what you are saying. If it is not your view point whose is it? You are interpreting Alwaar in a way very radically different from the way learned Acharyas have done. Yet you say it is not your view point. This is what I am questioning. Your interpretation of Thondaradipodi Alwaar's pasurams 41,42 and 43 are totally your views only. It has nothing to do with Periya Vachaan Pillai's thought process. I have clearly brought this out. You have no answer ro my question to you as to why you are bringing in the meaning of giving and taking girls for the words kolmin, kodumin when there are many other meanings for that word in tamil. That is why the charge that you are misrepresenting Alwaar as well as acharya and the charge is on solid base.You can answer convincingly and then invalidate the charge but not before that. The readers are the judges.

Among TBs there are two groups. One is the group which feels that the community is isolated also feels that TBS are themselves responsible for this isolation. They think the castes stand in the way of integration of the community with the rest of the masses. They also feels guilty about it because over a period of time clever manipulating politicians have dinned into their ears that they invented castes, that they sustain it, that they will never learn from mistakes, that they are arrogant, that all other castes are angels and they have been led by nose by brahmins etc. The other group understands that castes are just castes. It is there from time immemorial.That castes cannot be eradicated and there is no need either. What is to be eradicated is the mistakes of caste descriminations.One caste claiming superiority over the other caste.They are also clear that they are not responsible for the continuation of caste descrimination till this day. They clearly understand that every caste in India is responsible for the caste system as it is practised today.For every caste in the spectrum there was a vested interest in keeping the system going the way it is going. But then politics being a profession of scoundrels and that too intelligent scoundrels they noticed quite early that for survival in the politics they have capture the mind space of masses and retain it sufficiently long to convert it into votes for coming to power. Here comes hatred as the most potent tool to capture and retain mind space.They identified the caste system and the brahmins to pour hatred on a small minority and therby capture mind space of vast masses. They found that the trick works well in Indian context just as the trick worked well in Germany when Hitler tried it. Coming back to our second group, this group does not like making any compromises just to buy peace. They carry on with their convictions courageously but silently without making any loud mouthed claims. Each reader of this forum can decide which group he is in. Compromises if you want you can make. But why should you. You have not commited any sin. If you convince yourself because of the indoctrination that goes on that you are the culprit and so the caste should be eradicated jolly well do what you want. But please dont preach it. We have been lectured enough by right from EVRamaswamy to the local pettai rowdy. I f you think caste is all buncum, go ahead and marry from the "lowest" caste and give your son daughter to some one from the "lowest" community. No one stops you and no one is really bothered. But lecturing is a different cup of tea. You will questioned and you are bound to answer. Thank you.
 
Dubai/17.11.09

There was secularisam when alwars born. Now only politician talks only about secularisam in India. (Talking only )

How many Bramins nowadays following our duties and Nithya karma ?
To-day everything is business. Many of us put our parents in old age home and now in India especially in Tamilnadu now coming like Mushroom
( new, new homes )
Without Bhakthi and love what is use of learning satram and worshipping. Many of us cheating our self. Please change according to our culture and religious
saravanan










For Sri Vaishnavas, there are no one more exalted than the twelve Azvars. They are revered as Nithyasoory avatharas. Collectively, their poems are considered equal, if not more, in reverence and authority as the four Vedas.

Among the twelve Azhvars, three were born into Brahmin families. They are, (i) Vishnuchittan (Periyazhvar ), (ii) Vipranarayanan (Thondaradippodi azhvar) and (iii) Mathurakavi azhvar. In one way or another all three went against the Brahminical order and varna dharma of the day.

First, Periyazhvar. If you read his poetry you will find him to be a very gentle person. A large number of his 473 verses are devoted to enjoying Sri Krishna’s playful days in Gokulam. These are perhaps some of the most melodious and joyful of poetry anyone is lilely to come across. But I want to highlight just one verse from the very first 10 verses, known as திருப்பல்லாண்டு. Here is the last two lines of verse #5:
..
..
தொண்டக்குலத்திலுள்ளீர் வந்தடி தொழுது ஆயிரம் நாமம் சொல்லி
பண்டைக் குலத்தைத் தவிர்ந்து, பல்லாண்டு பல்லாயிரத்தாண்டு என்மினே!

(thoNdak kulaththil uLLIr! vandhadi thozudhu Ayira nAmam solli
paNdaik kulaththaith thavirndhu pallANdu pallAyiraththANdu enminE)

Here, by பண்டைக்குலம் Azhvar is referring to the high born brahmins. He is calling out to them to relinquish the high born status, "பண்டைக் குலத்தைத் தவிர்ந்து" and join the assembly of humble servants of Sriman Narayana தொண்டக்குலம்.

Even though this Azhvar was and still is celebrated with the unique honor as being Sriman Narayana's மாமனார், his words of social reform never took hold among the Sri Vaishnava Brahmins. His lofty words were given very narrow interpretation by later day status-quo commentators.

More than 1200 years ago this Azhvar dreamed of a casteless and egalitarian congregation of Sri Vaishnavas. Where did this fervor go? எங்கே such Sri Vaishnavas?
 
Dear Mr. Narayanan,
Lest i may be misunderstood, I would add that I am not having any hardfeelings against you or any one. I am cool. Shorn of all emotions I have looked at your view point, assessed it and presented my counter points. That is all. I enjoy the conversation. Thank you and the TB community for giving me the opportunity.Thank you.
 
Shri Nara Ji,

I mentioned about Srirangam, where Dalit's oppression is not there, and they are as free as anybody. I mentioned about the encroachment which is there till today. They are fully aware of the realities than us. They now are in no mood to ask for things. They can simply take it as the whole world is watching every action taken against them.

IMHO- in TN, at times, the clashes are happening between Dalits and NB's. Its mostly well-to-do dalit vs NB's. I have seen at some places, the behavior of WTD dalits creates problems with NBS. They say, see how he has changed and became arrogant after climbing to better position in govt offices?. We can not blame NBs solely for the fights. Its natural and it is bound to happen due to the govt reservation policies. You must have seen the fight in LAW college in paper or TV. Such clashes are bound to happen as the characteristics are changing with money and facility. They are not saints. It may settle down in due time.

Dalit's movement is very strong in India. You can see how prosperous Mayawati is. With the wealth she has, she can help the entire dalit population in India. (her business is to take care of dalits). In TN except in some villages we don't see atrocities on Dalits. The news, we are getting repeatedly are from those villages.

Dalit has a strong political representation namely Thirumavalavan and Krishnasamy who rides on MK or JJ. Their generations also as sharp as we are as you stated. They can easily help themselves for their welfare. Comparatively Brahmin community is in a sorry state.

We can give a helping hand and voice to their atrocities which are happening remotely, but there is a huge chance of back fire. Moreover, dalit themselves may not accept our support. Why? Because they are happy with the way they are with reservations and other facitlities. They need attention. Politicians will keep them that way because it is the lifeline of TN Politics. Except brahmins Mudhaliars and some FCs all others are happy to have the reservations and will keep it that way.

This are all my views.

Thanks
 
Because they are happy with the way they are with reservations and other facitlities. They need attention. Politicians will keep them that way because it is the lifeline of TN Politics.

i perfectly agree with this.

dalits will never give up reservations - they will keep it for as long as politics exists in the country.

not only TN politics, it the reality in other states too.

in an other thread there was a discussion on vijay tv and thali. some people were very passionate in their views against such programmes.

but how many people show the same passion in protesting against corruption or in supporting the media to do a sting or a scoop over the assets of politicians?

mayawati is undoubtedly one of the richest politicians in india.

madhu koda recently said that he is being targetted because of his "low caste" - how shamelessly these guys commit crimes and use caste to get away.

dalits have all the benefits today and yet use the past as a ruse to keep their hold over their benefits.

Perhaps the past, as it has been presented is far too distorted too as well - just because they want to use it as an excuse to do anything they want and get away with it.

yes, i agree - they are happy with the way they are.
 
Except brahmins Mudhaliars and some FCs all others are happy to have the reservations and will keep it that way.

Only brahmins cannot manage certificate on OBC, MBC etc. All other communities manage Backward Class certificates because there are both forward and backward classes within their communities. They manage to get BC certificate without any problem since the difference is very thin.

I have to again and again repeat, there is no point in talking about all these things, we have to unite and help each other. We have to ensure that poor and downtrodden in our community is helped to get out of their present situation. There is no point in talking about other things.

All the best
 
Moreover, dalit themselves may not accept our support. Why?


Hello Shri Raman, Greetings!

You are right, dalits are no longer willing to take all the abuse meekly. They have found some political power. They don't need the support of Brahmins. Thinking that they need the support of Brahmins is itself quite condescending.

It is not about them, it is about us. Are we ready to admit what is right and are we ready to do the right thing?

I am not here talking about the fact that it is in the interest of Brahmin community to abandon caste identity. My point is it is the right thing to do irrespective of what benefit is there for whom.

Cheers!
 
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Dear Shri Raju,

Greetings!

I am not having any hardfeelings against you or any one. ..... I enjoy the conversation.

My feelings are the same!

.... I have understood your view point.There is no problem. When you are saying you are not advocating your view points I do not understand what you are saying.


First, let me repeat what I said in my last reply to you.

My motivation behind this series of posts is to show that the practices of present day Sri Vaishanavas do not comport with even the limited vision of egalitarianism Azhvars and great commentators proposed, and to encourage everyone, and Sri Vaishnavas in particular, to try to live up to that vision.

The point of the posts I have made in this thread is to point out that Azhvars and great commentators like SPP said some very progressive things to say as early as about 1000 years ago. The present day Sri vaishnavas only pay lip service to these great men and seldom live up to their vision. Part of this was verses #41,42 and 43 of Thirumalai and the connected SPP commentary. In this context, here is what I said:

Alas, such revolutionary fervor fizzled in just a few centuries when orthodox brahmins provided very narrow interpretation for தொழுமினீர் கொடுமின் கொள்மின் as just showing respect and giving and receiving just common wisdom.

Further, in a later reply to your criticism, here is what I wrote:

....This is not my interpretation of Azhvar, it is the interpretation of வ்யாக்யானச் சக்ரவர்த்தி ஸ்வாமி பெரியவாச்சான் பிள்ளை. Unfortunately, he stops short of giving and taking girls in marriage to and from NB Bhagavatha families

I also said this in the course of this discussion:

I agree. Azhvars did limit the target of reverence to just devotees of Sriman Narayana. I disagree with this limitation, but this is not about me. It is about Azhvars and the extent to which the self described devotees of Azhvars actually live up to the Azhvar's own limited ideal.


From these I have made clear that SPP did not include taking and giving girls in marriage in his interpretation of கொடுமின் கொள்மின்.

While NOT understood READ
I have clearly stated that SPP did not go far enough, i.e. he did NOT include giving and taking of girls in marriage. I did not attribute that to SPP. Nowhere did I say SPP said taking and giving girls was approved by Azhvar.
End While


The point of my original set of post fits in very nicely with the following that you say:

நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள், அவர்களை ஆராதியுங்கோள், அவர்கள் உண்ட சேஷத்தை புஜியுங்கோள், அவர்களின் ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம் அருந்துங்கோள் is all ok as these are all natural meanings of what PVP has written.

Yes I know! That is what I was saying also. But what I am also saying is, put your money where your mouth is. Show me one brahmin SV institution where this is practiced. The present day Brahmin SVs, both observant and the weekend Brahmins, who take great pride in the greatness of Azhvars and commentators like SPP, hypocritically ignore even this narrow vision of respect within the community of Bhagavathas irrespective of caste.

============

Let me now give my interpretation. This is just my opinion for which I am entitled to and no SV, brahmin or otherwise have to accept it -- it can be rejected without a second thought.

Azhvar only said தொழுமினீர் கொடுமின் கொள்மின். He did not say what that was. Why should it be restricted only to காலிலே விழுங்கோள், சேஷத்தை புஜியுங்கோள், ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம், அருந்துங்கோள்? In fact Swami Sri Desikan, whom I admire greatly, further restricted SPP and says no falling at the feet, only showing respect, give and take general wisdom, not take them as Acharya and consume ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம், and give and take girls in marriage, good heavens NO. I disagree with all this. I think Azhvar's தொழுமினீர் கொடுமின் கொள்மின் allows a more expansive interpretation. This is my POV, reject it as unworthy and thats fine.


Among TBs there are two groups.

I am not going to respond to this part of your reply at this time. Sufficient to say, I do practice what I preach, and even otherwise, I don't see anything wrong in a little preaching. Even this mild preaching is unbearable, and that, once again reminds me of, "we are blind to our own prejudices."

Cheers!
 
Dear HH, Greetings!

So can amendments coming from mutt heads in the dharmashastras help matters?

I think there is no need to amend, they can simply say the parts about caste are not valid for Kali Yuga.

This is the standard answer I have heard when questioned about women not being allowed to recite or study Vedas while clearly they were allowed to do so during the Vedic times. So, the same approach can be taken to invalidate the offending parts of Dharmashashthras while retaining the parts that are not so offensive.

Cheers!
 
Am curious to know about the history of SriVaishnavism and the tridandi monks before Sri Ramanuja.

All Sri Vasihnavas, Vadakalaias and Thenakalais, trace their acharya lineage through the Acharya who initiated them into Sri Vaishnavam. This initiation ritual is called Samasrayanam. All these lines of acharayas finally leads to Bhagavat Ramanuja. As you trace further up, you ultimately end up with Sriman Narayana.

The earliest of uninterrupted line of Acharyas is Sriman Nathamuni. After N, according to the Sri Vasihnava Sampradaya, the lineage jumps to Nammazhvar, aka Shatakopan. Then, the lineage moves celestial to Visvaksenar, aka, சேனை முதலியார் (leader of the congregation of Nithyasoorees and Mukthas), and Sri (Thayar), and on to Sriman Narayana.

If I understand HH correctly, she is interested in the Acharyas between Ramanuja and Nathamunigal. What follows is based on the earliest of the Sri vaishnava hagiographies called ஆராயிரப்படி குருபரம்பர வைபவம் by பின்பழகிய பெருமாள் ஜீயர்.

What is now understood as Sri Vaishnavam was established by Sriman Nathamunigal (N). The legend of N says he came across a group of travelers from Kumbakonam who were singing just 10 verses from Swami Nammazhvar's Thiruvaymozi, in the temple in Kattu Mannarkovil, near Chidambaram and the birth place of the great Dalit leader and Congressman late Ilaiaparumal.

These ten verses are among the most beautiful and moving of the more than 1000 verses of Thiruvaymozhi. Here is the first of these 10 and you see for yourself.

ஆரா அமுதே அடியேன் உடலம் நின்பால் அன்பாயே
நீராய் அலைந்து கரைய, உருக்குகின்ற நெடுமாலே
சீரார் செந்நெல் கவரி வீசும், செழுநீர்த் திருக்குடந்தை
ஏரார் கோலம் திகழக் கிடந்தாய், கண்டேன் எம்மானே

These 10 pasurmas are packed with so much devotional love, it indeed melts (உருக்குகின்ற நெடுமாலே) the heart of even a heathen like me. Please permit me to cite just a few more phrases from these 10 pasurams.

உன்னால் அல்லால் யாவராலும் ஒன்றும் குறை வேண்டேன்

தரியேன் இனி, உன் சரணம் தந்து, என் சன்மம் களையாயே

யாழினிசையே அமுதே, அறிவின் பயனே அரியேறே

N was so taken by these 10 verses he spent the rest of his life gathering all the Azhvar pasurams. He is credited with not only bringing out Nammazhvar poems, but all the twelve Azhvars as well. But for him, we would not have the 4000 Dhivya Prabhandham. He set the verses to music and dance. The choreographed rendition of the Dhivya Prabhandam is called Arayar Sevai and is conducted every year in many temples.

N had a grandson named Yamuna. He saw a great deal of devotional potential in young Yamuna. But N passed away before he could have chance to mold him. But, in his deathbed, he made his sishya Uyyakkondar who became the next Acharya, promise that he will take the responsibility for guiding Yamuna.

Not a whole lot is known about Uyyakkondar. He also passed away and the responsibility of guiding Yamnua fell to the next Acharya Manakkal nambi.

In the meantime, Yamnua had amassed great wealth thanks to his vast Vedic knowledge and brilliant debating skills. He acquired the title Alavandhar, and was a king of a small kingdom. He was immersed deeply into his political life and had no time for anything spiritual.

Somehow, Swami Manakkal Nambi gained Alavandhar's trust and guided him away from his lowkeeka life into Vaideeka life. After Swami Manakkal Nambi, Alavandhar became the acharya. The story of Alavandhar is quite interesting, but I will skip it for fear of too great a digression.

As far as I can tell from the text, Swami Alavandhar was the first Sanyasee in the Acharya lineage. Among his works the one that stands out is Sthothra rathna in Samskritham. The verses of this poem indeed deserve every syllable of the title Sthothra Rathnam. It is indeed a Rathnam surpassed in brilliance by no other. It is upon hearing this poem Bhagavat Ramanuja finally abandoned his old associations and became a complete Sri Vaishnava. By this time he was already a Sanyasee and Alavandhar was already dead.

Swami Alavandhar had an eclectic group of sishyas that included Swami Thirukkachchi Nambi, a vaishya, and Swami Maraner Nambi, a dalit. Other sishyas of Alavandhar who later became teachers for Ramanuja were, Ramnuja's own uncle Periya Thirunmalai Nambi, Thirukkoshtiyur Nambi, Thirumalai Andan, and Thiruvaranga Perumal Araiyar. Of these Thirukkoshtiyur Nambi is perhaps the most prominent. However, it is Swami Periya Nambi who is in the lineage of Acharyas between Alavandhar and Ramanuja because it was he who initiated Ramanuja into Sri Vaishnavam at the Ramar temple in Mathurandhakam. As far as we can tell Swami Periya Nambi was a grahastha.

So the earliest of Thridhandees of the order were Alavandhar and Ramanuja. There is lot of significance for threesomes in Sri vaishnavam. There is the three thathvas, Chetana, Achethana, and Iswara. There is the three gunas that must be bound and kept in control. There are three types of Jeevas, namely, Baddas, Mukthas, and Nithyasoorees. There are three types achetanas, namely, thraiguNya matter, Sudda Satvam of Sri vaikuntam, and Kalam.

Of all these, it is the three thathvas that represent thridhandams.

I invite others to add if I have missed anything.

Cheers!
 
Only brahmins cannot manage certificate on OBC, MBC etc. All other communities manage Backward Class certificates because there are both forward and backward classes within their communities. They manage to get BC certificate without any problem since the difference is very thin.

i don't think so sir. In 12th class i tried to get a bc certificate.

i was told that any one parent must have a caste certificate then only a bc certificate will be issued in my name. I asked my mum and found that neither of my parents had any such certificate mentioning caste.

Someone known had managed to get a SC certificate (by false declaration). I though i cud do the same. But i was asked for some bribe money. I called up my father and asked him to send me money. I didn't relaize i was doing a wrong thing at that time. What followed was an utter showdown.

My father could not beleive that his own child was willing to pay a bribe and that too to get a BC caste certificate. I have not forgotten the trashing i received from my father even today.

That was the first and the last time i ever tried to do anything illegal in my life.

Till date i do not see any of my younger folk having any BC certificate. Dunno why. But i do see quite a chunk of them studying on donation seats in private collages if they cannot manage to go overseas.
 
I think there is no need to amend, they can simply say the parts about caste are not valid for Kali Yuga.

This is the standard answer I have heard when questioned about women not being allowed to recite or study Vedas while clearly they were allowed to do so during the Vedic times. So, the same approach can be taken to invalidate the offending parts of Dharmashashthras while retaining the parts that are not so offensive.

Thankyou Shri Nara.

Hope in future brahmanical mutts come around to saying, accepting and putting into practice that the parts about caste are not valid now; and hopefully will start admitting young girls to classes on vedas as well.
 
All Sri Vasihnavas, Vadakalaias and Thenakalais, trace their acharya lineage .... and Sri (Thayar), and on to Sriman Narayana.

If I understand HH correctly, she is interested in the Acharyas between Ramanuja and Nathamunigal. What follows is based on the earliest of the Sri vaishnava hagiographies called ஆராயிரப்படி குருபரம்பர வைபவம் by பின்பழகிய பெருமாள் ஜீயர்.

What is now understood as Sri Vaishnavam was established by Sriman Nathamunigal (N)....

Thankyou very much Shri Nara. Did a translit on the tamil verses and they are very inspiringly beautiful indeed. Hope i can someday read the thiruvaymozhi as it is without any transliteration and help with translation.

Was SriVaishnavism present in any form before Sri Nathamunigal ? Read somewhere that Vaikhanasa agama is very old and traced to the krishna yajurveda. Also found that tridandi monks were mentioned in the mahabharat. So i suppose SriVaishnavism is a very old tradition. I know i have already asked a lot. But i hope you will please share on the ancient traditions.

Thanks much again.
 
Thankyou Shri Nara.

Hope in future brahmanical mutts come around to saying, accepting and putting into practice that the parts about caste are not valid now; and hopefully will start admitting young girls to classes on vedas as well.

I am follower of Kanchi mutt and I can talk about it only. They have changed quite a lot. Today most of the visitors to Kanchi mutt are not brahmins unlike earlier days where mostly brahmins use to visit the mutt.

Now Kanchi mutt offers free food for all the communities in the northern side of Kamakshi Amman temple in a modern dining hall unlike earlier days.

When it comes to teaching vedas to all, the mutt has lot of limitations. The mutt is compelled to follow traditions built over few centuries and the mutt heads are not at liberty to change the traditions.

However organisations like Arya Samaj are propagating Vedhas, Upanisheds etc to all castes and religions without gender discrimination. Those who are interested can very well learn from them instead of blaming the traditional mutts.

All the best
 
A small input

I am follower of Kanchi mutt and I can talk about it only. They have changed quite a lot. Today most of the visitors to Kanchi mutt are not brahmins unlike earlier days where mostly brahmins use to visit the mutt.

Now Kanchi mutt offers free food for all the communities in the northern side of Kamakshi Amman temple in a modern dining hall unlike earlier days.

When it comes to teaching vedas to all, the mutt has lot of limitations. The mutt is compelled to follow traditions built over few centuries and the mutt heads are not at liberty to change the traditions.

However organisations like Arya Samaj are propagating Vedhas, Upanisheds etc to all castes and religions without gender discrimination. Those who are interested can very well learn from them instead of blaming the traditional mutts.

Just to clarify sir: am not blaming any mutt.

also, i don't think arya samaj teaches vedas to non-hindus.

as for the learning part, probably that's the reason why there is a wide chasm b/w the purvamimansa based mutts and the vedanta based mutts.


All the best
 
Just adding this in post haste:

Shri Venkataramani ji,

Am not into blaming mutts. I respect all forms of knowledge dissemination. I have no personal expectations. Nobody i know is interested in spiritual studies. Everyone is busy dreaming of money, money and more money and focussed on ways of making it. In view of the social issues involved, i used the word "hope". In case it was wrong to do so, my apologies.

Regards.
 
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