How to retain our left out community???

[sravna]

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Thanks Renuka. If I deserve credit for a universal outlook, a lot of it should go to people like you who with their contrary views made me see the other side also. To be frank I used to be somewhat parochial in outlook but have changed over the years.

 

[renuka]

Thanks Renuka. If I deserve credit for a universal outlook, a lot of it should go to people like you who with their contrary views made me see the other side also. To be frank I used to be somewhat parochial in outlook but have changed over the years.

Dear Sravna,

Everyone changes their outlook eventually...I feel a Universal outlook is the ultimate destiny of every human being...its just that some feel a Universal outlook spells loss of culture and tradition and they fear to let go of what defines their very physical existence but in reality the purpose of existence is to go beyond the physical.

One can use culture/tradition/religion to propel them in the right direction but at one point we would need let go of everything once the understanding of existence changes.

One does not lose their identity when one lets go of anything..in fact only by letting go a holistic view is obtained.

One should not see thru the prism anymore..one needs to find the source.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Everyone changes their outlook eventually...I feel a Universal outlook is the ultimate destiny of every human being...its just that some feel a Universal outlook spells loss of culture and tradition and they fear to let go of what defines their very physical existence but in reality the purpose of existence is to go beyond the physical.

One can use culture/tradition/religion to propel them in the right direction but at one point we would need let go of everything once the understanding of existence changes.

One does not lose their identity when one lets go of anything..in fact only by letting go a holistic view is obtained.

One should not see thru the prism anymore..one needs to find the source.

True Renuka.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

We have changed........


I think members who come here to write against the trials and tribulations of Bs don’t belong to Tamil Nadu at all and they don’t have any firsthand experience. For them it is all hear say and whatever they read from the print media. They have not experienced the claustrophobic persecution that ‘Bs’ have undergone ever since the Dravidian movement took shape in Tamil Nadu.

Do they spare some time to think as to

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly gave up their hair style Kudumi (tuft)?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly started to change their attire from Panchakatcham?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly stopped the practice of applying ethnic mark on their forehead?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly started to grow mustache?

Why they changed their dialect which there were used to for generations?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly stopped to identify themselves as ‘Bs’ among others?

Only Bs in Tamil Nadu who tasted the bitter experience under the rule of the Dravidian Parties can able to narrate their agony which has some authenticity and there are few who have absolutely no idea about Tamil Brahmins but come here just to rant for passion sake. Undoubtedly one may feel that they are ignorant of the impact of Dravidian culture on TBs.

 

[auh]

We have changed........


I think members who come here to write against the trials and tribulations of Bs don’t belong to Tamil Nadu at all and they don’t have any firsthand experience. For them it is all hear say and whatever they read from the print media. They have not experienced the claustrophobic persecution that ‘Bs’ have undergone ever since the Dravidian movement took shape in Tamil Nadu.

Do they spare some time to think as to

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly gave up their hair style Kudumi (tuft)?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly started to change their attire from Panchakatcham?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly stopped the practice of applying ethnic mark on their forehead?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly started to grow mustache?

Why they changed their dialect which there were used to for generations?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly stopped to identify themselves as ‘Bs’ among others?

Only Bs in Tamil Nadu who tasted the bitter experience under the rule of the Dravidian Parties can able to narrate their agony which has some authenticity and there are few who have absolutely no idea about Tamil Brahmins but come here just to rant for passion sake. Undoubtedly one may feel that they are ignorant of the impact of Dravidian culture on TBs.

Dear sir,

I dont know why you are just bent on whipping up emotions about those who, in your opinion, seem to "write against the trials and tribulations of Bs". Why cannot you just focus and write on the grand ideas with which you and other members seek to arrive at a resolution?

Alright, let us accept that whatever Bs had to face, they had faced in the past. Now, it is not so bad for brahmins as it was in the times of the "claustrophobic persecution" that you claim. I am from Tamilnadu, and from Coimbatore and I have heard a lot of first hand experiences from my father. Even yesterday, my father recollected some memories of that period. My schooling, graduate and post-graduate qualification are all from coimbatore, and I dont just make up something and write it out here.

Bs are not so "persecuted" now as in the days you speak of. I hope you would agree with me. Stray instances of violence and aggression cannot be considered the norm. In such a scenario, why aren't the very same brahmins who kept a "crop" not reverting to "kudumi"? Why cant they return to their glory practices of old?

I get the feeling that it is all cud that we are chewing in this forum, in the name of discussion. No one seems to be interested to give honest answers.

Best,

 

[prasad1]

Dear sir,

I dont know why you are just bent on whipping up emotions about those who, in your opinion, seem to "write against the trials and tribulations of Bs". Why cannot you just focus and write on the grand ideas with which you and other members seek to arrive at a resolution?

Alright, let us accept that whatever Bs had to face, they had faced in the past. Now, it is not so bad for brahmins as it was in the times of the "claustrophobic persecution" that you claim. I am from Tamilnadu, and from Coimbatore and I have heard a lot of first hand experiences from my father. Even yesterday, my father recollected some memories of that period. My schooling, graduate and post-graduate qualification are all from coimbatore, and I dont just make up something and write it out here.

Bs are not so "persecuted" now as in the days you speak of. I hope you would agree with me. Stray instances of violence and aggression cannot be considered the norm. In such a scenario, why aren't the very same brahmins who kept a "crop" not reverting to "kudumi"? Why cant they return to their glory practices of old?

I get the feeling that it is all cud that we are chewing in this forum, in the name of discussion. No one seems to be interested to give honest answers.

Best,

Thank you. Well said.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Auh Ji,

When a Doctor visits every patient, why does he peruse every patients Record Sheet?

Why when there is a murder or suicide, they conduct post mortem?

Some needs to refresh their memories, certainly they are not cherishing memories.

Such exercise help to find out the root cause and to take corrective measure to set right the things.

We will discuss before that let us clear doubts of some minds.

Thanks

 

[auh]

Auh Ji,

When a Doctor visits every patient, why does he peruse every patients Record Sheet?

Why when there is a murder or suicide, they conduct post mortem?

Some needs to refresh their memories, certainly they are not cherishing memories.

Such exercise help to find out the root cause and to take corrective measure to set right the things.

We will discuss before that let us clear doubts of some minds.

Thanks

This is a wrong approach to take to the current generation. Instead of "telling" the younger generation as to what happened.should have happened etc., (which more often than not takens a negative road), we can start by listening and answering. Honestly.

Are you ready?

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Okay agreed.

Let us listen.

 

[auh]

Okay agreed.

Let us listen.

Good.

1) Why dont Bs sport a kudumi as prescribed?

I hope the listening part wouldnt stretch too long into a deafening silence.

Your (or other brahmins') answers please.

After we have discussed this, let us move to the next one.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

This question addressed to which generation?

 

[auh]

This question addressed to which generation?

The generation that wants to retain the "left-out" TB community.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I request members to offer their considered view on this.

But we are still ruled by Dravidian parties, the original inhabitants (as per history) and we live among them.

 

[prasad1]

Mind your words.

Why did you use words like scoundrel? Can't you present your case better with your rich expereince in this forum?

What if I am povoked and started to abuse ??

I am just trying to keep myself cool in the interest of the thread.

Don't provoke me??

You may say it is transformation and I may say it is reformation.

Try to read history again and again.

And now read the OP and the subsequent postings again again.

One among the points projected is how are the cultures viz. Moguls, British and Dravidian cultures had impact on us the Brahmins, our culture, tradition, etc

Try to keep your postings in line with the OP?

And be kind.

Thanks

As usual now you have the victim syndrome.
I called the politicians and rulers as "Scoundrals" and most qualify for that epitaph. I am sorry you misunderstand my post.
You don't need much to be provoked. You have been on Tirade against Krishji.

After the partition of India in 1947, The Punjabi's and Sindhi's who came to India as refugees are thriving business tycoons. The refugees from E. Pakistan are still beggars.

It depends on the outlook. The people who get up, dust themselves and are ready for the next battle are the successful people. The people who lament the past and act the victim card are the looser.
When the Dravidian movement took place and TB rightly felt cheated, a lot of people left TN and have been successful outside of TN. Similarly some people stayed in TN and worked in that adverse conditions and still were successful. But some people could not get over that Knock down, sorry for them, but life goes on. There are Victors and then there are looser.
Oh i should be kind
There are successful and then there are socially and economically challenged.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

As usual now you have the victim syndrome.
I called the politicians and rulers as "Scoundrals" and most qualify for that epitaph. I am sorry you misunderstand my post.
You don't need much to be provoked. You have been on Tirade against Krishji.

After the partition of India in 1947, The Punjabi's and Sindhi's who came to India as refugees are thriving business tycoons. The refugees from E. Pakistan are still beggars.

It depends on the outlook. The people who get up, dust themselves and are ready for the next battle are the successful people. The people who lament the past and act the victim card are the looser.
When the Dravidian movement took place and TB rightly felt cheated, a lot of people left TN and have been successful outside of TN. Similarly some people stayed in TN and worked in that adverse conditions and still were successful. But some people could not get over that Knock down, sorry for them, but life goes on. There are Victors and then there are looser.
Oh i should be kind
There are successful and then there are socially and economically challenged.

You have no business to call any one as Scoundrels in this Forum. It is a public Forum where one should know how to maintain etiquette, manners, decency and decorum.

And I am against unsolicited advice from any one.

 

[Vaagmi]

This question addressed to which generation?

Dear Balan,

I was looking for the question. Finally with the help of someone I found it.

some questions like the one under consideration here, are such that they pop up suddenly from no where and so invite more questions to place them in a frame with proper coordinates. Now these are natural "answering questions" and when these are answered the Q proper will get answered.

1. Where is it said that only brahmins should have kudumi?

2. Other castes also had kudumi and so kudumi appears to be just a convenient appendage at a particular point of time. If some one keeps it for ever it is his convenience. It is just that and does not convey anything more than that. He may be a Nair, a Ezhava, a thevar, a Kamban or any other caste man. So please answer as to where is it said that a brahmin should have a kudumi or only a brahmin should have a kudumi.

3. In the previous centuries men used to carry a sword and ride on horses. Now by the logic of the big Q here shall we say that all kshatriyas should ambulate only on horses or that they should carry a sword without fail.

So the answer will be:

Why not? Brahmins will sport a kudumi when we have all others riding horses carrying withem each a sword. Let the Government- otherwise called the majoritarian anarchy in Indian context-first organize men on horses with swords and then expect brahmins to carry a kudumi on their head.

It is not yet Q.E.D. as I hope to hear more on this kudumi soon.

LOL

 

[sangom]

Dear Balan,

I was looking for the question. Finally with the help of someone I found it.

some questions like the one under consideration here, are such that they pop up suddenly from no where and so invite more questions to place them in a frame with proper coordinates. Now these are natural "answering questions" and when these are answered the Q proper will get answered.

1. Where is it said that only brahmins should have kudumi?

2. Other castes also had kudumi and so kudumi appears to be just a convenient appendage at a particular point of time. If some one keeps it for ever it is his convenience. It is just that and does not convey anything more than that. He may be a Nair, a Ezhava, a thevar, a Kamban or any other caste man. So please answer as to where is it said that a brahmin should have a kudumi or only a brahmin should have a kudumi.

3. In the previous centuries men used to carry a sword and ride on horses. Now by the logic of the big Q here shall we say that all kshatriyas should ambulate only on horses or that they should carry a sword without fail.

So the answer will be:

Why not? Brahmins will sport a kudumi when we have all others riding horses carrying withem each a sword. Let the Government- otherwise called the majoritarian anarchy in Indian context-first organize men on horses with swords and then expect brahmins to carry a kudumi on their head.

It is not yet Q.E.D. as I hope to hear more on this kudumi soon.

LOL

Vaagmi Sir is right. Nairs, Ezhavas (an OBC category today), goldsmiths, carpenters and so on had "kudumis" in Travancore state, and I have seen some in my very young days (the 1940's). Those were the days when independence of India from the British rule, Mahatma Gandhi's exhortations to the people of India and the ideas popularized by Bharathiyar and other poets were reportedly the guiding lights for the youth of that era. This included orthodox family people including my father and his siblings, besides many TBs of that generation. They felt that the Kudumi was inconvenient to many of the modern jobs. (My father, reportedly again, was undergoing training for Steam Loco driver's job at that period.) They therefore removed their kudumis and faced the wrath of their elders for that. Some however continued religiously with the old practice since they had jobs like clerks, teachers, etc.

I have read that Kudumi or "Shikha" was the primitive 'shield' for the brain so that attacks with swords and other sharp edged weapons did not directly hit on the skull. Different tribal groups had different numbers of "knots" for their kudumi and our "pravara" is nothing but a code for the number of knots each one of us should have had. Some gotras have pravaras of 5 or even 7 rishis and the people were supposed to have that many number of knots in their kudumis!

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi Sir is right. Nairs, Ezhavas (an OBC category today), goldsmiths, carpenters and so on had "kudumis" in Travancore state, and I have seen some in my very young days (the 1940's). Those were the days when independence of India from the British rule, Mahatma Gandhi's exhortations to the people of India and the ideas popularized by Bharathiyar and other poets were reportedly the guiding lights for the youth of that era. This included orthodox family people including my father and his siblings, besides many TBs of that generation. They felt that the Kudumi was inconvenient to many of the modern jobs. (My father, reportedly again, was undergoing training for Steam Loco driver's job at that period.) They therefore removed their kudumis and faced the wrath of their elders for that. Some however continued religiously with the old practice since they had jobs like clerks, teachers, etc.

I have read that Kudumi or "Shikha" was the primitive 'shield' for the brain so that attacks with swords and other sharp edged weapons did not directly hit on the skull. Different tribal groups had different numbers of "knots" for their kudumi and our "pravara" is nothing but a code for the number of knots each one of us should have had. Some gotras have pravaras of 5 or even 7 rishis and the people were supposed to have that many number of knots in their kudumis!

On a lighter vein:

I belong to a village in Tirunelveli District which was far away from civilization. We had hardly 200 households in that village and all around our village there were only paddy fields. The village was on the banks of a river. It had two irrigation tanks one on the west of the village and the other on the east. I can write pages and pages about my life there as a young boy-I studied upto my 8th class there before moving to a town. And coming to the point, we used to celebrate a festival every year just after the Diwali day. The women of the agraharam used to get an earthern cow and calf made by the pot-maker of the village (kuyavan in tamil). The cow and calf used to be kept in a prominent place (usually the thinnai of a large house) and puja done to it every day twice-morning and night. The young women (read sumangali) used to play kummi and kolaattam before the cow and calf in the night singing many songs. I have heard the entire Ramayana sung in Tamil to a dancing tune by the ladies. On the tenth day the cow and calf were taken to the paddy field and left in the midst of the crop there to slowly dissolve in the water in the field. On one such kolaattam session there was an old sumangali singing a song about how times were changing and how kali kaalam was setting in. She was singing in tamil "கலிகாலம் முத்திப்போச்சு. குடுமி முடிச்சும் போச்சு" and was running with other ladies around the kuththuvilakku on the ground with kolaattam sticks in hand. And her husband the oldman/ தாத்தா without a kudumi in the audience was enjoying the hit with a toothless smile. It is green in my memory.

 

[auh]

Thank you shri Vaagmi, & shri sangom, for your answers.

I considered both the replies and have arrived at the below extract: (please correct me if I have not placed it correctly).

1) Brahmins do not sport kudumi because the other castes do not. post #66
2) Brahmins feel that kudumi is inconvenient to the job they do. post #67

Let us see if this addresses the query that I posed

1) Why dont Bs sport a kudumi as prescribed?

Straightaway we can reject point 1 as it does not stand the test of reason and neither does it address the question properly. The query was not "Will brahmins sport a kudumi if other castes do their prescription?".

So, one inference that could possibly be done by this is that brahmins have changed with times. They do not wish to do things that do not gel with times. Is this reasonable?

Point 2 answers more or less the query, and it emphasizes the inference above. But surely, may I ask what kind of inconvenience it offered. Was it not a compromise? A step down from the ideals.

From point 2, can we say that brahmins fell that kudumi is "inconvenient" to their jobs that they go against the shastras? One more inference could be that brahmins nowadays do not do jobs that require a kudumi.

Do the members agree. If anybody have any disagreement please state them.

 

[vgane]

Good.

1) Why dont Bs sport a kudumi as prescribed?

I hope the listening part wouldnt stretch too long into a deafening silence.

Your (or other brahmins') answers please.

After we have discussed this, let us move to the next one.

The incidents quoted by Bala Sir are deeply ingrained in the minds of TN based TB's...These are scars...Not so easy to erase them from memory!

 

[Vaagmi]

Why do Brahmins not sport a kudumi as prescribed?

This was the original Q.

Where is it or was it prescribed? Was the elucidating q raised.

Answer to q is awaited.

eloquence and verbiage apart a clear answer to q is needed so as to answer the Q.

The listening part is stretched too long already. LOL.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

I think you are trying to twist the meaning of Vaideegam-The root word is Vaidik & it means a person following the Vedas..Following the Vedic anushtanams & who is having knowledge of the Vedas..

I do understand what a full time Vaideegam means!! Incidentally who is your family Acharya?

The Acharya who is Acharya for Tanjore District Smarthas is my Acharya.

I reiterate that Kanchi Seer meant Vaideegam as Shastrigal profession.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

(My father, reportedly again, was undergoing training for Steam Loco driver's job at that period.) They therefore removed their kudumis and faced the wrath of their elders for that.

It is interesting to note a B had Steam Engine training. I belonged to a place where change of locomotive used to take place - from electric locomotive to steam locomotive and subsequently diesel in the early 1970s.

Generally, one could see lot of Anglo Indians handled Steam Engines as loco pilots, as it was quite difficult to handle Steam Engine.

Did your father succeed and become Steam Engine Pilot?

 

[auh]

Why do Brahmins not sport a kudumi as prescribed?

This was the original Q.

Where is it or was it prescribed? Was the elucidating q raised.

Answer to q is awaited.

eloquence and verbiage apart a clear answer to q is needed so as to answer the Q.

The listening part is stretched too long already. LOL.

In Samkshepa Dharma Shastram (of which I have a copy here), on the short chapter about chudakaranam, there is a quote from Apasthambar about it, and when it is to be done.

For an online link, refer this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chudakarana

Apart from that, you could place a trunk call to your acharya (ahobilam or andavan) and ask if a brahmins is supposed to have a shikha.

 

[tbs]

I think you are trying to twist the meaning of Vaideegam-The root word is Vaidik & it means a person following the Vedas..Following the Vedic anushtanams & who is having knowledge of the Vedas..

I do understand what a full time Vaideegam means!! Incidentally who is your family Acharya?

hi

ONLY VADAMA ACHARYA...NOT ANY OTHER SECT .....